Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com

What exactly is the proposed transaction, and how well do you know the
person selling this piece of "gold"? Does this person look a little
bit like he was from India?

i

On 2010-03-11, Frank J Warner wrote:
Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank

"Frank J Warner" wrote in message
news:100320101820157778%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon .net...
Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com

If you mean *this* Ed, I'm not knowledgeable about buying gold. You want
Harold Vardos. I haven't seen him for a while; maybe someone has his e-mail
address.

I'm working on a deadline right now, or I'd try to help more, but I can help
you with the weight. First, gold is usually weighed in troy ounces, which
equal approximately 31.10 grams (480 grains). The avoirdupois ounces we use
for everything else equal 28.35 grams.

The density of gold is 19.3 grams/cc. One cubic inch equals 16.387064 cc.

From those equivalents, you can figure out the weight of gold you need, in
troy ounces, avoirdupois ounces, or grams. If I wasn't busy I'd do the
calculations.

BTW, my guess is that you'll have to swage that shape yourself, from a piece
of gold wire or whatever. That shouldn't be hard to do but you'll need a
block of steel with a .1875 in. hole in it and a piece of steel rod of the
same diameter -- and a hammer. g

Good luck. I'll get back to this thread when I can and see what remains to
be calculated.

--
Ed Huntress

Frank J Warner wrote:
Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank


If your looking at a solid piece that size your looking at about 23
bucks worth of gold for 10K and about 50 for 24K. BUT if this is
something that you need NOW you will likely end up making it yourself.
That isn't a common size in wire gold. or in bar stock.

Your best option would really be to buy a large mens ring or two from a
pawn shop or even a Wal~Mart. Then make a over-sized mold and pour it
yourself. Then turn to fit. That would be easier and MUCH cheaper than
special ordering it.

--
Steve W.

And baring that and needing it made for you - I know of someone
that can do it for you.

It becomes a work of art to get something made.

Martin

Steve W. wrote:
Frank J Warner wrote:
Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank


If your looking at a solid piece that size your looking at about 23
bucks worth of gold for 10K and about 50 for 24K. BUT if this is
something that you need NOW you will likely end up making it yourself.
That isn't a common size in wire gold. or in bar stock.

Your best option would really be to buy a large mens ring or two from a
pawn shop or even a Wal~Mart. Then make a over-sized mold and pour it
yourself. Then turn to fit. That would be easier and MUCH cheaper than
special ordering it.

Frank J Warner wrote:
Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank

~Well, you need o know a working gold smith. He will have an account
with his metal supplier and can get a price for a piece of wire usually
a couple of inches long.
its just gone 6am here in the Uk and my gold supplier opens at 8.
My UK phone calls are free so ill have a price for you shortly.
the minimum length will be 1 inch in 18 ct. It will be the nearest size
bigger than your spec. Also the spot price for gold is only the
starting point for pricing. and thats in kilo bars and up in weight.
On top is always the manufacturing cost, thecheapest is casting grain
the most expensive is drawn seamless tube.
Fine gold will be too soft to turn even if you have a watchmakers lathe.
Your sure to have Cookson metals in the USA somewhere, and an email to
them will get a prompt reply.
will write again soon.
ted
Frater
Dorset
in the UK..

On Mar 10, 4:20*pm, Frank J Warner
wrote:
Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:http://www.franksknives.com

After looking at your knives I think you should make friends with a
goldsmith. A goldsmith that likes knives could become a very good
friend. What you need could be made out of scrap. Why that much
precision? What kind of timeline?
Karl

Frank J Warner wrote:
Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank

Ok, Frank,
Cookson in Birmingham UK quoted just now,4mm dia by 25mm long weight
4.86 grams
in 18ct yellow
cost without postage and VAT £104.15.
You do your own exchange rate calculation and reduction to .2in piece
length.
hope this helps
Ted.

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

"Frank J Warner" wrote in message
news:100320101820157778%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon .net...
Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com

If you mean *this* Ed, I'm not knowledgeable about buying gold. You want
Harold Vardos. I haven't seen him for a while; maybe someone has his e-mail
address.

Er, yes, sorry to have confused you with him. He helped me with a
previous question about precious metals.


I'm working on a deadline right now, or I'd try to help more, but I can help
you with the weight. First, gold is usually weighed in troy ounces, which
equal approximately 31.10 grams (480 grains). The avoirdupois ounces we use
for everything else equal 28.35 grams.

The density of gold is 19.3 grams/cc. One cubic inch equals 16.387064 cc.

From those equivalents, you can figure out the weight of gold you need, in
troy ounces, avoirdupois ounces, or grams. If I wasn't busy I'd do the
calculations.

BTW, my guess is that you'll have to swage that shape yourself, from a piece
of gold wire or whatever. That shouldn't be hard to do but you'll need a
block of steel with a .1875 in. hole in it and a piece of steel rod of the
same diameter -- and a hammer. g

Good luck. I'll get back to this thread when I can and see what remains to
be calculated.

Thanks, Ed.

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/

In article , Steve W.
wrote:

Frank J Warner wrote:
Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank


If your looking at a solid piece that size your looking at about 23
bucks worth of gold for 10K and about 50 for 24K. BUT if this is
something that you need NOW you will likely end up making it yourself.
That isn't a common size in wire gold. or in bar stock.

Your best option would really be to buy a large mens ring or two from a
pawn shop or even a Wal~Mart. Then make a over-sized mold and pour it
yourself. Then turn to fit. That would be easier and MUCH cheaper than
special ordering it.

I have done that in the past when I needed gold to embellish a knife.
It becomes prohibitively expensive to buy ready-made jewelry. You're
not only paying for the gold, you're paying for the jeweler's time a a
hefty markup.

I was hoping to contact a local amateur goldsmith on craigslist or
something who could sell me the gold at the going rate plus a
reasonable fee for his or her services. I've allowed $50-$100 for this,
while a man's gold band with the same amount of metal from a jeweler
runs upwards from $250 or so.

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/

In article
,
" wrote:

On Mar 10, 4:20*pm, Frank J Warner
wrote:
Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:http://www.franksknives.com

After looking at your knives I think you should make friends with a
goldsmith. A goldsmith that likes knives could become a very good
friend. What you need could be made out of scrap. Why that much
precision? What kind of timeline?
Karl

Unfortunately I live in a very small town with not too many craftsmen
like that, although I'm looking. The local jewelers are less than
helpful. They won't even talk to me unless I want to buy a bag of
Krugerrands or something.

This is just a thumb stud for a lady's folding knife. Tiny bit of gold
with an opal cabochon inset.

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/

In article ,
Martin H. Eastburn wrote:

And baring that and needing it made for you - I know of someone
that can do it for you.

Email at my website is good, Martin, if you know someone. Where is he
located?

It becomes a work of art to get something made.

This is the simplest gold part I can imagine. Shouldn't be difficult to
have something like this made.

-Frank


Martin

Steve W. wrote:
Frank J Warner wrote:
Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank


If your looking at a solid piece that size your looking at about 23
bucks worth of gold for 10K and about 50 for 24K. BUT if this is
something that you need NOW you will likely end up making it yourself.
That isn't a common size in wire gold. or in bar stock.

Your best option would really be to buy a large mens ring or two from a
pawn shop or even a Wal~Mart. Then make a over-sized mold and pour it
yourself. Then turn to fit. That would be easier and MUCH cheaper than
special ordering it.


--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/

Frank Warner wrote:
In article , Steve W.
wrote:

Frank J Warner wrote:
Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank

If your looking at a solid piece that size your looking at about 23
bucks worth of gold for 10K and about 50 for 24K. BUT if this is
something that you need NOW you will likely end up making it yourself.
That isn't a common size in wire gold. or in bar stock.

Your best option would really be to buy a large mens ring or two from a
pawn shop or even a Wal~Mart. Then make a over-sized mold and pour it
yourself. Then turn to fit. That would be easier and MUCH cheaper than
special ordering it.

I have done that in the past when I needed gold to embellish a knife.
It becomes prohibitively expensive to buy ready-made jewelry. You're
not only paying for the gold, you're paying for the jeweler's time a a
hefty markup.

I was hoping to contact a local amateur goldsmith on craigslist or
something who could sell me the gold at the going rate plus a
reasonable fee for his or her services. I've allowed $50-$100 for this,
while a man's gold band with the same amount of metal from a jeweler
runs upwards from $250 or so.

-Frank

Thats why Jeweler wasn't listed. The local Wal~mart has mens 14K rings
for 60 bucks. An 18K ladies 18" necklace just cost me 73 bucks.

For a thumb stud I wouldn't go higher than 18K due to strength issues.

--
Steve W.

"Frank Warner" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

"Frank J Warner" wrote in message
news:100320101820157778%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon .net...
Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com

If you mean *this* Ed, I'm not knowledgeable about buying gold. You want
Harold Vardos. I haven't seen him for a while; maybe someone has his
e-mail
address.

Er, yes, sorry to have confused you with him. He helped me with a
previous question about precious metals.


I'm working on a deadline right now, or I'd try to help more, but I can
help
you with the weight. First, gold is usually weighed in troy ounces, which
equal approximately 31.10 grams (480 grains). The avoirdupois ounces we
use
for everything else equal 28.35 grams.

The density of gold is 19.3 grams/cc. One cubic inch equals 16.387064 cc.

From those equivalents, you can figure out the weight of gold you need,
in
troy ounces, avoirdupois ounces, or grams. If I wasn't busy I'd do the
calculations.

BTW, my guess is that you'll have to swage that shape yourself, from a
piece
of gold wire or whatever. That shouldn't be hard to do but you'll need a
block of steel with a .1875 in. hole in it and a piece of steel rod of
the
same diameter -- and a hammer. g

Good luck. I'll get back to this thread when I can and see what remains
to
be calculated.

Thanks, Ed.

-Frank

I'm glad to see that others stepped in first. It saved me some calculation.
g

Too bad, I sold a couple of thousand dollars worth of old gold when the
price peaked a few months back. It was my mother's old jewelry. I could have
sold you a piece at wholesale.

Which reminds me, there are a lot of jewelry shops buying gold. If there
isn't some reason they can't do this, I would think that they'd sell you a
piece fairly cheap. They aren't paying the commodity exchange rates, I can
tell you.

--
Ed Huntress

In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:
Which reminds me, there are a lot of jewelry shops buying gold. If there
isn't some reason they can't do this, I would think that they'd sell you a
piece fairly cheap. They aren't paying the commodity exchange rates, I can
tell you.

....but the whole point is to buy cheap and sell dear, thus making money
at it.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:
Which reminds me, there are a lot of jewelry shops buying gold. If there
isn't some reason they can't do this, I would think that they'd sell you
a
piece fairly cheap. They aren't paying the commodity exchange rates, I
can
tell you.

...but the whole point is to buy cheap and sell dear, thus making money
at it.

Right. But they're buying from individual sellers at less than commodity
prices, and no doubt they're selling it at something at least slightly lower
than commodity prices, so they could charge a lot less than the retail price
for jewelry gold, which appears to be the commodity price plus a substantial
markup.

There's probably plenty of slack for them to make some money without
charging an arm and a leg.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mar 11, 7:51*am, Frank Warner wrote:
In article
,



" wrote:
On Mar 10, 4:20*pm, Frank J Warner
wrote:
Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:http://www.franksknives.com

After looking at your knives I think you should make friends with a
goldsmith. A goldsmith that likes knives could become a very good
friend. What you need could be made out of scrap. Why that much
precision? What kind of timeline?
Karl

Unfortunately I live in a very small town with not too many craftsmen
like that, although I'm looking. The local jewelers are less than
helpful. They won't even talk to me unless I want to buy a bag of
Krugerrands or something.

This is just a thumb stud for a lady's folding knife. Tiny bit of gold
with an opal cabochon inset.

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:http://www.franksknives.com/

I usually buy from he
http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/SearchPage.aspx?page=GRID&category|category_root|1 04=Metals&category|cat_104|170=Gold

Karl

"Steve B" wrote in message
news snip-.

Gold is the easiest hustle in the world. All one has to do is flash some
gold, and everyone wants to invest. The problem is that gold comes in all
purities. The government type is .999 pure, and that is from refinement.
It does down from there.

The industry standard for fine gold is 9995. It does not go down from
there, but up.

Testing for gold purity is a scientific art that is very technical and
involves specialized equipment, but that equipment is reasonably priced.
It involves a touchstone, various gold needles of various % of gold, and
some solutions, mainly acid. Read up on it.

That's fine for buying scrap, but worthless for establishing fineness of
refined gold. Fire assaying, along with various modern methods, establishes
the purety of gold, not a touch stone.

A lot of gold that comes in placer deposits ( visible chunks like the
nuggets you see in a stream) can be formed into solid shapes, but the
impurities in it make it less valuable than pure gold. Placer runs around
70%.

Yes, placer can run 70%, as well as 94%, 67% and everything in between.
There is no hard, fast rule in the fineness of gold found in nature. It has
been found nearly pure, by the way, running 999. Impurities in gold
typically are silver, then copper.

So, a one ounce placer nugget is only 70% gold. Pure gold is nearly
impossible to refine, that being 1,000 fine.

Not quite sure of your meaning here. It is possible to achieve very pure
gold, however at considerable expense. Zonal refining can yield quality in
the six nines range. The Canadian Government is marketing Mapleleafs that
are five nines. You pay a high premium for gold above 4 nines.


smelting it is no big deal to get purer bars.

Purer bars are not accomplished by smelting. Smelting is the process of
removing metals from their ores.

Heat will not purify gold in and of itself. There are heat processes that
will elevate the fineness of gold, however. Cupelling is one of them.
The Miller chlorine process is another. Both of these methods are well
beyond the average person's ability, for they require specific equipment.
The Miller process also offers the risk of death.

Gold can be refined by various methods. It can be done electrolytically,
chemically, or by zonal heating.
The electrolytic process is typicallly applied to gold of high purity, to
remove trace elements.

Gold should never be melted in any kind of metallic vessel. Molten metals
are strong solvents of other metals, so the gold will be contaminated, often
rendering it useless as it loses its ductility, depending on the alloying
element. Lead, for example, destroys gold's qualities of ductility.

There's more than can be discussed here.

It would be easy enough to alloy pure agold to the desired karat, and pour
the required piece.

Harold
Harold

"Steve B" wrote in message
news

A lot of gold that comes in placer deposits ( visible chunks like the
nuggets you see in a stream) can be formed into solid shapes, but the
impurities in it make it less valuable than pure gold. Placer runs around
70%. So, a one ounce placer nugget is only 70% gold. Pure gold is nearly
impossible to refine, that being 1,000 fine. Also called 24k. So a
little
math will tell you 14k is 14/24ths gold. Chemical testing can give you a
1-1,000 rating.


Yet nuggets can bring prices higher than bullion if the end use is gold
nugget jewelry, so the melt value of the nuggets is not often the best
market to sell them.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:
Which reminds me, there are a lot of jewelry shops buying gold. If there
isn't some reason they can't do this, I would think that they'd sell you
a
piece fairly cheap. They aren't paying the commodity exchange rates, I
can
tell you.
...but the whole point is to buy cheap and sell dear, thus making money
at it.

Right. But they're buying from individual sellers at less than commodity
prices, and no doubt they're selling it at something at least slightly lower
than commodity prices, so they could charge a lot less than the retail price
for jewelry gold, which appears to be the commodity price plus a substantial
markup.

There's probably plenty of slack for them to make some money without
charging an arm and a leg.


I don't remember the name off hand but there was a jeweler that always
advertised as being ones who charged you by the actual weight of the
gold plus IIRC $50.00.

As for profit, in the words of Randy Savage "OOHH YEAHHHHH"
Most finished jewelery has a HUGE mark-up for profit. Most places you
hit are in the range of 300-400% of the wholesale cost of the finished
item, which itself is usually 200 percent of the price of the materials
and time used in creation. Some of the really "exclusive" places are
even worse. Plus there are some big regional differences as well.
The wedding band I wear is a simple diamond etched 14K item.

Distributor price on it was around 80 bucks when it was purchased.
Retail in this area would have been closer to $200.00.

--
Steve W.

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Gold should never be melted in any kind of metallic vessel. Molten
metals are strong solvents of other metals, so the gold will be
contaminated, often rendering it useless as it loses its ductility,
depending on the alloying element.

so, if I wanted to melt a few old rings down into a cube or ingot, what
vessel or mold material can one use?

Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank

-- Here's some of my work: http://www.franksknives.com



You might try posting this question on the rec.craft.jewelry newsgroup.
The moderator there will answer your question and there are other
knowledgeable people their to offer answers.

RBnDFW wrote:
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Gold should never be melted in any kind of metallic vessel. Molten
metals are strong solvents of other metals, so the gold will be
contaminated, often rendering it useless as it loses its ductility,
depending on the alloying element.

so, if I wanted to melt a few old rings down into a cube or ingot,
what vessel or mold material can one use?

ceramics

In article
,
" wrote:

On Mar 11, 7:51*am, Frank Warner wrote:
In article
,



" wrote:
On Mar 10, 4:20*pm, Frank J Warner
wrote:
Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long. Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:http://www.franksknives.com

After looking at your knives I think you should make friends with a
goldsmith. A goldsmith that likes knives could become a very good
friend. What you need could be made out of scrap. Why that much
precision? What kind of timeline?
Karl

Unfortunately I live in a very small town with not too many craftsmen
like that, although I'm looking. The local jewelers are less than
helpful. They won't even talk to me unless I want to buy a bag of
Krugerrands or something.

This is just a thumb stud for a lady's folding knife. Tiny bit of gold
with an opal cabochon inset.

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:http://www.franksknives.com/

I usually buy from he
http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/SearchPage.aspx?page=GRID&category|category_root|1 04=Metals&category|cat_104|170=Gold

Karl

Yes, I've bought from Rio Grande before, but this was such a
ridiculously small amount of gold I doubt they would have accepted the
order.

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/

"RBnDFW" wrote in message
...
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Gold should never be melted in any kind of metallic vessel. Molten
metals are strong solvents of other metals, so the gold will be
contaminated, often rendering it useless as it loses its ductility,
depending on the alloying element.

so, if I wanted to melt a few old rings down into a cube or ingot, what
vessel or mold material can one use?

My recommendation is to go to a jewelry supply store and purchase a melting
dish. They are made of clay, and not terribly expensive. It is VERY
important that you season the dish before using. They are notorious for
cracking when first heated, otherwise. Begin by heating the dish on a low
heat, so the moisture contained within will evaporate slowly. When the
dish has dried well, raise the temperature of the dish to a dull red heat
(using a torch), then sprinkle a little borax on the dish, so it ends up
with a thin coating. That coating will prevent the gold from sticking to
the dish, and allow the molten gold to pour easily from the dish. Make
sure the spout is coated. Too much borax and it pours off with the gold,
so pay close attention to the amount you use.

Borax glass, or anhydrous borax is the best choice, but you can use any
borax you can find, it just contains water and is light and fluffy, so it
tends to blow away, unlike the anhydrous or glass borax.

A mold can be prepared by drilling through a piece of steel, although I
think I'd recommend a piece of cast iron instead. The finish of the hole
should be quite good, so the gold can't key. When the mold is made, it
should be heated to dull red, to oxidize the surface, which will help
prevent soldering of the gold when it is poured. Use a second piece of
metal as a stop for the bottom of the mold. It, too, should be oxidized and
then smoked well, to prevent soldering.

When you are ready to pour the gold slug, the mold should be preheated to a
point just under 1,000 degree, then it should be fully smoked with an
acetylene torch. The carbon film will serve two purposes. It will prevent
the gold from soldering to the mold, and it should yield a thickness that
will make the resulting slug a tiny amount smaller than the mold, so it can
be removed easily.

Harold

"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
RBnDFW wrote:
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Gold should never be melted in any kind of metallic vessel. Molten
metals are strong solvents of other metals, so the gold will be
contaminated, often rendering it useless as it loses its ductility,
depending on the alloying element.

so, if I wanted to melt a few old rings down into a cube or ingot,
what vessel or mold material can one use?

ceramics


That can be risky. What ever the choice may be, it must be resistant to
thermal shock. Ceramics (Coors, for example) isn't. My previous post
details what works very well, and has been used for years by the jewelry
trade. I used the same system when I refined small lots.

Harold

"Roger Shoaf" wrote in message
...

"Steve B" wrote in message
news

A lot of gold that comes in placer deposits ( visible chunks like the
nuggets you see in a stream) can be formed into solid shapes, but the
impurities in it make it less valuable than pure gold. Placer runs
around
70%. So, a one ounce placer nugget is only 70% gold. Pure gold is
nearly
impossible to refine, that being 1,000 fine. Also called 24k. So a
little
math will tell you 14k is 14/24ths gold. Chemical testing can give you a
1-1,000 rating.


Yet nuggets can bring prices higher than bullion if the end use is gold
nugget jewelry, so the melt value of the nuggets is not often the best
market to sell them.


That is absolutely the truth. Nuggets tend to be worth far more than the
gold they contain. Anything above a troy ounce is usually in demand as a
specimen. Small nuggets may or may not be worth more. I processed
anything that came in that was small.

Harold

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
.. .

"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
RBnDFW wrote:
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Gold should never be melted in any kind of metallic vessel. Molten
metals are strong solvents of other metals, so the gold will be
contaminated, often rendering it useless as it loses its ductility,
depending on the alloying element.

so, if I wanted to melt a few old rings down into a cube or ingot,
what vessel or mold material can one use?

ceramics


That can be risky. What ever the choice may be, it must be resistant to
thermal shock. Ceramics (Coors, for example) isn't. My previous post
details what works very well, and has been used for years by the jewelry
trade. I used the same system when I refined small lots.

Harold

With such a tiny amount of gold, Harold, can't he melt it in a charcoal
block? I thought I'd heard of that being done.

--
Ed Huntress

On 2010-03-12, Ed Huntress wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
.. .

"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
RBnDFW wrote:
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Gold should never be melted in any kind of metallic vessel. Molten
metals are strong solvents of other metals, so the gold will be
contaminated, often rendering it useless as it loses its ductility,
depending on the alloying element.

so, if I wanted to melt a few old rings down into a cube or ingot,
what vessel or mold material can one use?

ceramics


That can be risky. What ever the choice may be, it must be resistant to
thermal shock. Ceramics (Coors, for example) isn't. My previous post
details what works very well, and has been used for years by the jewelry
trade. I used the same system when I refined small lots.

Harold

With such a tiny amount of gold, Harold, can't he melt it in a charcoal
block? I thought I'd heard of that being done.


And, could you melt it in a graphite block? (EDM graphite)

i

Ignoramus29334 wrote:

With such a tiny amount of gold, Harold, can't he melt it in a charcoal
block? I thought I'd heard of that being done.


And, could you melt it in a graphite block? (EDM graphite)

i

PURE carbon graphite yes provided it's yellow gold.

I would suggest an easy method myself. Involves less work and will give
a good result.

Grab a carbon arc rod. Bore a hole slightly over-sized into it and 3-4
times deeper than needed. Now use nippers to cut the gold into small
pieces and drop them into the hole. Grab a good torch (MAPP or O/A) then
heat the rod until the gold melts. Add more gold as needed until you
have a large enough piece. Let it cool and then us the nippers to
cut/crush the carbon.
You basically will be using the "crucible" as a disposable mold.
Remove the gold and machine as needed.

--
Steve W.

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
RBnDFW wrote:
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Gold should never be melted in any kind of metallic vessel. Molten
metals are strong solvents of other metals, so the gold
will be contaminated, often rendering it useless as it loses its
ductility, depending on the alloying element.

so, if I wanted to melt a few old rings down into a cube or ingot,
what vessel or mold material can one use?

ceramics


That can be risky. What ever the choice may be, it must be
resistant to thermal shock. Ceramics (Coors, for example) isn't. My
previous post details what works very well, and has been used for
years by the jewelry trade. I used the same system when I refined
small lots.
Harold

your next post states:

"My recommendation is to go to a jewelry supply store and purchase a melting
dish. They are made of clay, and not terribly expensive. It is VERY
important that you season the dish before using."

tmk, clay is ceramics.

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:46:46 -0700, "chaniarts"
wrote:

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
RBnDFW wrote:
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Gold should never be melted in any kind of metallic vessel. Molten
metals are strong solvents of other metals, so the gold
will be contaminated, often rendering it useless as it loses its
ductility, depending on the alloying element.

so, if I wanted to melt a few old rings down into a cube or ingot,
what vessel or mold material can one use?

ceramics


That can be risky. What ever the choice may be, it must be
resistant to thermal shock. Ceramics (Coors, for example) isn't. My
previous post details what works very well, and has been used for
years by the jewelry trade. I used the same system when I refined
small lots.
Harold

your next post states:

"My recommendation is to go to a jewelry supply store and purchase a melting
dish. They are made of clay, and not terribly expensive. It is VERY
important that you season the dish before using."

tmk, clay is ceramics.


Harold was referring to vitrified ceramics. We used to use 99.5%
(iirc, that was in 1980) alumina Coors brick, we had about 300,000 of
them in an experimental electrolytic cell. The heatup schedule took 6
weeks to 700 C. The cell was 75' x 30' x 7' deep. Those bricks were
highly prized for sharpening knives. And they were very sensitive to
thermal shock.

Pete Keillor

Check the Riogrande site again.
There is a stock jewelry finding called a "Straight tube bezel w/bearing.".
It is a short straight piece of gold tubing with a counterbored end for a
stone to sit in.
Assuming your opal is close to the diameter of the bar you inquired about,
you need one for a .35ct or .50ct stone.

In that size they will probably only be 3-4mm tall. They will probably cost
$15-20 each in 14k

Paul K. Dickman


"Frank Warner" wrote in message
. ..
In article
,
" wrote:

On Mar 11, 7:51 am, Frank Warner wrote:
In article
,



" wrote:
On Mar 10, 4:20 pm, Frank J Warner
wrote:
Forgive me. I am abysmally ignorant about this.

I need to know how much to pay for a small bit of gold.

I'm asking for a piece, a cylinder .1875" diameter x .1875" long.
Karat
weight is negotiable: 18 karat, 24 karat. Doesn't matter. Price
will
probably differ with each, and I understand that.

I can google the spot price of gold and calculate it out, but I
have no
idea how much a piece of gold this size weighs. Archimedes wasn't
my
best friend in high school.

Steel prices are bad enough, and titanium, whoo boy. But I am
totally
lost when dealing with truly precious metals. Gold-mongers in my
experience are notoriously reticent with a little thing called
honesty,
so I'd like to know what to expect as a reasonable price.

Little help here? Ed? Where are you when I need you?

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:http://www.franksknives.com

After looking at your knives I think you should make friends with a
goldsmith. A goldsmith that likes knives could become a very good
friend. What you need could be made out of scrap. Why that much
precision? What kind of timeline?
Karl

Unfortunately I live in a very small town with not too many craftsmen
like that, although I'm looking. The local jewelers are less than
helpful. They won't even talk to me unless I want to buy a bag of
Krugerrands or something.

This is just a thumb stud for a lady's folding knife. Tiny bit of gold
with an opal cabochon inset.

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:http://www.franksknives.com/

I usually buy from he
http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/SearchPage.aspx?page=GRID&category|category_root|1 04=Metals&category|cat_104|170=Gold

Karl

Yes, I've bought from Rio Grande before, but this was such a
ridiculously small amount of gold I doubt they would have accepted the
order.

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/

Pete Keillor wrote:

Harold was referring to vitrified ceramics. We used to use 99.5%
(iirc, that was in 1980) alumina Coors brick, we had about 300,000 of
them in an experimental electrolytic cell. The heatup schedule took 6
weeks to 700 C. The cell was 75' x 30' x 7' deep. Those bricks were
highly prized for sharpening knives. And they were very sensitive to
thermal shock.

Pete Keillor


If you care to start another thread and talk about that, I'd love to read it.

Wes

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
.. .

"Steve B" wrote in message
news snip-.

Gold is the easiest hustle in the world. All one has to do is flash some
gold, and everyone wants to invest. The problem is that gold comes in
all purities. The government type is .999 pure, and that is from
refinement. It does down from there.

The industry standard for fine gold is 9995. It does not go down from
there, but up.

Testing for gold purity is a scientific art that is very technical and
involves specialized equipment, but that equipment is reasonably priced.
It involves a touchstone, various gold needles of various % of gold, and
some solutions, mainly acid. Read up on it.

That's fine for buying scrap, but worthless for establishing fineness of
refined gold. Fire assaying, along with various modern methods,
establishes the purety of gold, not a touch stone.

A lot of gold that comes in placer deposits ( visible chunks like the
nuggets you see in a stream) can be formed into solid shapes, but the
impurities in it make it less valuable than pure gold. Placer runs
around 70%.

Yes, placer can run 70%, as well as 94%, 67% and everything in between.
There is no hard, fast rule in the fineness of gold found in nature. It
has been found nearly pure, by the way, running 999. Impurities in gold
typically are silver, then copper.

So, a one ounce placer nugget is only 70% gold. Pure gold is nearly
impossible to refine, that being 1,000 fine.

Not quite sure of your meaning here. It is possible to achieve very pure
gold, however at considerable expense. Zonal refining can yield quality
in the six nines range. The Canadian Government is marketing Mapleleafs
that are five nines. You pay a high premium for gold above 4 nines.


smelting it is no big deal to get purer bars.

Purer bars are not accomplished by smelting. Smelting is the process of
removing metals from their ores.

Heat will not purify gold in and of itself. There are heat processes
that will elevate the fineness of gold, however. Cupelling is one of
them. The Miller chlorine process is another. Both of these methods are
well beyond the average person's ability, for they require specific
equipment. The Miller process also offers the risk of death.

Gold can be refined by various methods. It can be done electrolytically,
chemically, or by zonal heating.
The electrolytic process is typicallly applied to gold of high purity, to
remove trace elements.

Gold should never be melted in any kind of metallic vessel. Molten
metals are strong solvents of other metals, so the gold will be
contaminated, often rendering it useless as it loses its ductility,
depending on the alloying element. Lead, for example, destroys gold's
qualities of ductility.

There's more than can be discussed here.

It would be easy enough to alloy pure agold to the desired karat, and pour
the required piece.

Harold

My point, which I apparently didn't state, or you didn't get was that for
the average layman to trade in gold is not as simple as weight x spot price
equals value.

Hope I got it right that time. I don't know everything about gold, but I
know a good bit about placer mining. From there, the refining and testing
is up to the experts.

And most laymen are not experts, but are exploited by some of them, and the
conmen, too.

I believe that the current wave of gold buyers on TV must be rolling in the
dough. A lot of people probably send in diamonds and all, just getting paid
for the gold. And I'm just a little bit suspicious as to whose gold they
are sending in for fast cash.

Steve

"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
RBnDFW wrote:
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Gold should never be melted in any kind of metallic vessel. Molten
metals are strong solvents of other metals, so the gold will be
contaminated, often rendering it useless as it loses its ductility,
depending on the alloying element.

so, if I wanted to melt a few old rings down into a cube or ingot,
what vessel or mold material can one use?

ceramics

Here in the old west, I have found assayer's shacks, or what's left of them
with the remains of thousands of broken crucibles laying scattered all
about.

Steve

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Ignoramus29334 wrote:

With such a tiny amount of gold, Harold, can't he melt it in a charcoal
block? I thought I'd heard of that being done.


And, could you melt it in a graphite block? (EDM graphite)

i

PURE carbon graphite yes provided it's yellow gold.

Not quite sure of your reasoning, stating it must be yellow gold. To my
knowledge, gold alloy of almost any description can be melted with a
graphite vessel.

Harold

"Steve B" wrote in message
...
snip-
I believe that the current wave of gold buyers on TV must be rolling in
the dough. A lot of people probably send in diamonds and all, just
getting paid for the gold. And I'm just a little bit suspicious as to
whose gold they are sending in for fast cash.

Steve

You are dead on with your assessment. People are being screwed by these
buyers. KSL TV did a story on this some time ago. Cascade Refining, in
SLC, was found to be quite honest with their customers. If memory serves,
one of the mail-in buyers returned a miserably low percentage, something
like 18%.

It's very difficult to deal in gold unless you are willing to take a
bruising.

Harold

"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
RBnDFW wrote:
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Gold should never be melted in any kind of metallic vessel. Molten
metals are strong solvents of other metals, so the gold
will be contaminated, often rendering it useless as it loses its
ductility, depending on the alloying element.

so, if I wanted to melt a few old rings down into a cube or ingot,
what vessel or mold material can one use?

ceramics


That can be risky. What ever the choice may be, it must be
resistant to thermal shock. Ceramics (Coors, for example) isn't. My
previous post details what works very well, and has been used for
years by the jewelry trade. I used the same system when I refined
small lots.
Harold

your next post states:

"My recommendation is to go to a jewelry supply store and purchase a
melting
dish. They are made of clay, and not terribly expensive. It is VERY
important that you season the dish before using."

tmk, clay is ceramics.

I know and understand that, but if you say ceramics and leave it as such, I
think you'll find that enough people will not consider a clay dish as being
satisfactory, when it is, and may even consider that Coors lab ware would be
the best choice. If you've ever worked with any of that stuff, you know
how it isn't fond of thermal shock, which is hard to avoid when working with
molten metals.

Harold

"Ignoramus29334" wrote in message
...
On 2010-03-12, Ed Huntress wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
.. .

"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
RBnDFW wrote:
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Gold should never be melted in any kind of metallic vessel. Molten
metals are strong solvents of other metals, so the gold will be
contaminated, often rendering it useless as it loses its ductility,
depending on the alloying element.

so, if I wanted to melt a few old rings down into a cube or ingot,
what vessel or mold material can one use?

ceramics


That can be risky. What ever the choice may be, it must be resistant
to
thermal shock. Ceramics (Coors, for example) isn't. My previous post
details what works very well, and has been used for years by the jewelry
trade. I used the same system when I refined small lots.

Harold

With such a tiny amount of gold, Harold, can't he melt it in a charcoal
block? I thought I'd heard of that being done.


And, could you melt it in a graphite block? (EDM graphite)


Hey Iggy,

Don't know. If it has binders, perhaps not. If it's just graphite, it
should work quite well. You have to be careful that you don't contaminate
the gold when it's melted, so if there was even a trace of anything metallic
in the graphite, I'd say stay away. You risk destroying the alloy's
ductility, or its integrity as a given alloy.

Harold