Sort of metal related...

Came across a couple of 75# CO2 tanks used in a Kidde fire
extinguisher setup. They currently have Kidde I-Valves installed.
The fortunate(?) part is that the tanks are still full, and hence the
dilemma.

I would like to adapt the I-Valve to something more "normal" for now,
and then once the tank is empty put on a CGA-580 valve. The second
part is easy, but I am not having much luck finding out what even
interfaces to the I-Valve and then any method to adapt it to a
regulator.

I don't want to spend a lot, as it is just to salvage the gas that is
in the tank. So the solution has to be pretty cheap (~$20-30), or
there is little net gain to just venting the tanks and then swapping
the valve and refilling.

Anyone here familiar with the I-valve and where to find fittings for
it?

JW

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:41:15 -0800 (PST), jw
wrote:

Sort of metal related...

Came across a couple of 75# CO2 tanks used in a Kidde fire
extinguisher setup. They currently have Kidde I-Valves installed.
The fortunate(?) part is that the tanks are still full, and hence the
dilemma.

I would like to adapt the I-Valve to something more "normal" for now,
and then once the tank is empty put on a CGA-580 valve. The second
part is easy, but I am not having much luck finding out what even
interfaces to the I-Valve and then any method to adapt it to a
regulator.

I don't want to spend a lot, as it is just to salvage the gas that is
in the tank. So the solution has to be pretty cheap (~$20-30), or
there is little net gain to just venting the tanks and then swapping
the valve and refilling.

Anyone here familiar with the I-valve and where to find fittings for
it?

JW


Try a local fire extinguisher company (Yellow Pages). They should be
able to help you find something to adapt the valve to something a
little more "normal".

Jim

On Dec 8, 5:41*pm, jw wrote:
Sort of metal related...

Came across a couple of 75# CO2 tanks used in a Kidde fire
extinguisher setup. *They currently have Kidde I-Valves installed.
The fortunate(?) part is that the tanks are still full, and hence the
dilemma.

I would like to adapt the I-Valve to something more "normal" for now,
and then once the tank is empty put on a CGA-580 valve. *The second
part is easy, but I am not having much luck finding out what even
interfaces to the I-Valve and then any method to adapt it to a
regulator.

I don't want to spend a lot, as it is just to salvage the gas that is
in the tank. *So the solution has to be pretty cheap (~$20-30), or
there is little net gain to just venting the tanks and then swapping
the valve and refilling.

Anyone here familiar with the I-valve and where to find fittings for
it?

JW

I salvaged a couple of smaller fire extinguishers. The valves had
standard pipe theads.

Dan

jw writes:

I would like to adapt the I-Valve to something more "normal" for now,
and then once the tank is empty put on a CGA-580 valve.

The big problem you can't avoid is that a fire extinguisher valve is a
dip-tube dump type, since to put out a fire you want as much directed
mass flow as possible. Connecting an ordinary gas regulator to this
liquid CO2 is asking for disaster.

Another warning is to not improvise high-pressure gas fittings unless
you can analyze and prove the strength of your work. Absolutely do not
use plumbing fittings. You do not want 75 lbs of liquid CO2 at 1000 psi
held in by a Chinese shrapnel tube designed to explode at 150 psi.

Calculate the joules represented by the containment of 75 lbs of CO2 as
warm liquid. Now divide that by, say, the 5 seconds it takes to vent a
burst high-pressure dip-tube line, to get watts, and thence to
horsepower. Humble yourself before that figure. If you don't have the
brains to make that kind of calculation, then you shouldn't be messing
with this material.

It is rather like a 750 KV power line fell into your back yard. Let's
just connect a transformer with some alligator clips to get some free
power. Whee!

Richard J Kinch wrote:
The big problem you can't avoid is that a fire extinguisher valve is a
dip-tube dump type, ...

Sure you can avoid it: turn the tank upside down. Bob

On Dec 9, 8:51*am, Richard J Kinch wrote:
jw writes:
I would like to adapt the I-Valveto something more "normal" for now,
and then once the tank is empty put on a CGA-580valve.

The big problem you can't avoid is that a fire extinguishervalveis a
dip-tube dump type, since to put out a fire you want as much directed
mass flow as possible. *Connecting an ordinary gas regulator to this
liquid CO2 is asking for disaster.

Another warning is to not improvise high-pressure gas fittings unless
you can analyze and prove the strength of your work. *Absolutely do not
use plumbing fittings. *You do not want 75 lbs of liquid CO2 at 1000 psi
held in by a Chinese shrapnel tube designed to explode at 150 psi.

Calculate the joules represented by the containment of 75 lbs of CO2 as
warm liquid. *Now divide that by, say, the 5 seconds it takes to vent a
burst high-pressure dip-tube line, to get watts, and thence to
horsepower. *Humble yourself before that figure. *If you don't have the
brains to make that kind of calculation, then you shouldn't be messing
with this material.

It is rather like a 750 KV power line fell into your back yard. *Let's
just connect a transformer with some alligator clips to get some free
power. *Whee!

No reason to get condescending, but based on some of the questions I
have seen on this forum, no offense is taken. I have very high levels
of respect for compressed gases.

I was just hoping that there would be some reasonably cheap method to
adapt the plumbing of this setup. The "correct" I valve hood is ~$150
(more than the CO2 I'm attempting to salvage) There may be cheaper
sources. Worst case, I just dump the CO2 someplace vented and move on
with life...

JW

I'd make an active effort to donate the co2 to someplace,
rather than vent it. No sense wasting all the energy and
effort it took to manufacture.

Not that venting will have much effect on the planet, one
way or the other.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"jw" wrote in message
...

Worst case, I just dump the CO2 someplace vented and move on
with life...

JW

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:41:15 -0800 (PST), jw
wrote:

Sort of metal related...

Came across a couple of 75# CO2 tanks used in a Kidde fire
extinguisher setup. They currently have Kidde I-Valves installed.
The fortunate(?) part is that the tanks are still full, and hence the
dilemma.

I would like to adapt the I-Valve to something more "normal" for now,
and then once the tank is empty put on a CGA-580 valve. The second
part is easy, but I am not having much luck finding out what even
interfaces to the I-Valve and then any method to adapt it to a
regulator.

I don't want to spend a lot, as it is just to salvage the gas that is
in the tank. So the solution has to be pretty cheap (~$20-30), or
there is little net gain to just venting the tanks and then swapping
the valve and refilling.

Anyone here familiar with the I-valve and where to find fittings for
it?

JW

I found the "I-valve recharge adapter" online, and that should be
usable to drain the tank - the trick is to borrow one from an
extinguisher service company that has two and rarely uses them. Not
that many permanent mount CO2 systems out there anymore, most of them
are dry-chemical or wet-chemical, and they only need a small 1-pound
CO2 or Nitrogen cylinder to discharge the agent.

Then call your friend that owns a restaurant - I'm sure they'll be
overjoyed to accept the donation of a few large cylinders of CO2,
it'll cut their refill bill from the industrial gases company
delivering the cryogenic CO2 to their dewar tank.

All of those restaurant systems have a changeover valve to use
cylinder CO2 if the cryogenic dewar runs dry, just switch it over
manually - when the cylinder goes dry, they can switch it back till
you come by and hook up another one. And with the Bag-in-Box pumps
sucking up the gas, they use it up at a pretty good clip...

(Hint: Offer to set the restaurant up with a small air compressor
and a good inline filtration system to run the Bag-in-Box pumps. Or
run a line and tap off an existing HVAC Control Air or Shop Air
system. The way those little diaphraghm pumps suck down the gas just
to move the syrup 10 feet, it will pay for itself fast.)

In a few weeks the CO2 cylinders are emptied responsibly and you get
a few free meals from the restaurant in return. Then you take the
I-Valve adapter back to the extinguisher shop and buy a few good
2-1/2-Pound ABC Units from them for your car as the rental payment.
Everybody wins.

-- Bruce --

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 00:04:53 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:41:15 -0800 (PST), jw
wrote:

Sort of metal related...

Came across a couple of 75# CO2 tanks used in a Kidde fire
extinguisher setup. They currently have Kidde I-Valves installed.
The fortunate(?) part is that the tanks are still full, and hence the
dilemma.

I would like to adapt the I-Valve to something more "normal" for now,
and then once the tank is empty put on a CGA-580 valve. The second
part is easy, but I am not having much luck finding out what even
interfaces to the I-Valve and then any method to adapt it to a
regulator.

I don't want to spend a lot, as it is just to salvage the gas that is
in the tank. So the solution has to be pretty cheap (~$20-30), or
there is little net gain to just venting the tanks and then swapping
the valve and refilling.

Anyone here familiar with the I-valve and where to find fittings for
it?

JW

I found the "I-valve recharge adapter" online, and that should be
usable to drain the tank - the trick is to borrow one from an
extinguisher service company that has two and rarely uses them. Not
that many permanent mount CO2 systems out there anymore, most of them
are dry-chemical or wet-chemical, and they only need a small 1-pound
CO2 or Nitrogen cylinder to discharge the agent.

Then call your friend that owns a restaurant - I'm sure they'll be
overjoyed to accept the donation of a few large cylinders of CO2,
it'll cut their refill bill from the industrial gases company
delivering the cryogenic CO2 to their dewar tank.

All of those restaurant systems have a changeover valve to use
cylinder CO2 if the cryogenic dewar runs dry, just switch it over
manually - when the cylinder goes dry, they can switch it back till
you come by and hook up another one. And with the Bag-in-Box pumps
sucking up the gas, they use it up at a pretty good clip...

(Hint: Offer to set the restaurant up with a small air compressor
and a good inline filtration system to run the Bag-in-Box pumps. Or
run a line and tap off an existing HVAC Control Air or Shop Air
system. The way those little diaphraghm pumps suck down the gas just
to move the syrup 10 feet, it will pay for itself fast.)

In a few weeks the CO2 cylinders are emptied responsibly and you get
a few free meals from the restaurant in return. Then you take the
I-Valve adapter back to the extinguisher shop and buy a few good
2-1/2-Pound ABC Units from them for your car as the rental payment.
Everybody wins.

-- Bruce --

That reminds me...I just got 6 C02 bottles a week or so ago. Guy claimed
he fished em out of the trash about 18 yrs ago. Aluminum bottles..seem
to be in good shape, paint is badly faded...but the $35 Deposit stickers
are still readable.

What should I do with them? Hang on to them after sufficient
cleaning..turn them back to CC or? The guy they came from is
trustworthy as can be and I know he didnt steal them...if he said they
came out of a dumpster..they in fact did.

I do use Co2 for mig.

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:40:39 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

That reminds me...I just got 6 C02 bottles a week or so ago. Guy claimed
he fished em out of the trash about 18 yrs ago. Aluminum bottles..seem
to be in good shape, paint is badly faded...but the $35 Deposit stickers
are still readable.

What should I do with them? Hang on to them after sufficient
cleaning..turn them back to CC or? The guy they came from is
trustworthy as can be and I know he didnt steal them...if he said they
came out of a dumpster..they in fact did.

I do use Co2 for mig.

Gunner

Don't worry about getting Coca-Cola to pony up on the deposits - they
are worth more than that nowadays, it would be a sucker lowball
payment. Consider them owner cylinders.

With the prevalence of Cryo CO2 Dewars in the market, they don't
have nearly the demand anymore in the soda biz. They can run for
decades on what they have, now that they only get used as a backup
supply most places.

And consider that the cylinders may have been in the trash because
they failed Hydro. Not likely, because they would drill a hole in the
side to make sure they cant be used again, but you never know.

I would clean them thoroughly and check the head-stamps for clues.
If they XXX'd out the registration numbers, that might be a fail sign.
And if they are beaten up too bad they would fail on visual - remember
Aluminum likes to fail catastrophically by developing fractures...

Then take the cleaned up bottles to a welding supply and send them
through for a Hydro and CO2 fill - you'll get them back, or you won't.

The big question being - if one or more fails Hydro, do you get it
back? And do they stick you with the test fee? And is the recycling
value higher than the test fee? (Probably is, they use a high-grade
forging alloy...)

I would be VERY wary if they don't send the failed cylinder back and
try to bill you for the test anyway - they might be trying to get paid
twice for the same job (by you and by the recycling center) which is
always nice IF you don't get caught...

I had an old Coca-Cola tank like that, and my Refrigeration house at
the time just did a straight exchange for the fill cost, they didn't
worry about it's parentage.

-- Bruce --