Iggy,

I assume you are following the Russian-language media on the recent
disaster at the hydroelectric plant in Siberia that killed ~69 people
and wrecked the machinery hall, doing a billion dollars of damage.

The English-language media have little real information, and I'm hoping
that the Russian media has better information.

As near as I can glean, the feedwater pressure was observed to rise just
before the explosion, so I'm guessing that the turbine speed regulator
mechanism failed, allowing the turbine to be driven to bursting speed.

Or, the turbine disk developed a crack and just came apart, perhaps
triggered by a speed increase that had heretofore caused no problem.

There are also many reports that the powerplant was known to be
dangerous because of monumental lack of maintenance.

Joe Gwinn

Joe, I will look, I was very busy with stuff, but I am interested
myself.

Igor

On 2009-08-29, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
Iggy,

I assume you are following the Russian-language media on the recent
disaster at the hydroelectric plant in Siberia that killed ~69 people
and wrecked the machinery hall, doing a billion dollars of damage.

The English-language media have little real information, and I'm hoping
that the Russian media has better information.

As near as I can glean, the feedwater pressure was observed to rise just
before the explosion, so I'm guessing that the turbine speed regulator
mechanism failed, allowing the turbine to be driven to bursting speed.

Or, the turbine disk developed a crack and just came apart, perhaps
triggered by a speed increase that had heretofore caused no problem.

There are also many reports that the powerplant was known to be
dangerous because of monumental lack of maintenance.

Joe Gwinn

Joe, it looks like they were repairing some of the water channels
inside the dam, which broke a wall and flooded the control room.

In article ,
Ignoramus17616 wrote:

Joe, it looks like they were repairing some of the water channels
inside the dam, which broke a wall and flooded the control room.

That doesn't explain all the physical damage to what had been a very
strongly built building. Was the water channel broken when the turbine
went, or the other way around?

Joe Gwinn

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus17616 wrote:

Joe, it looks like they were repairing some of the water channels
inside the dam, which broke a wall and flooded the control room.

That doesn't explain all the physical damage to what had been a very
strongly built building. Was the water channel broken when the turbine
went, or the other way around?

A water hammer on #2 resulted in the destruction of the rotor which
fractured the housing and threw a 900 ton piece of equipment completely off
it's mount. Water continued to flood the hall through the fractured turbine
housing and since all power was lost, the safety systems couldn't open the
safety gates. All of the afected transformers apparently blew as well and
their oil flowed from the building when emergency power came on and the
emergency discharge gates were opened manually.

That's what I got anyway.

JC

--
John R. Carroll

On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 09:22:55 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus17616 wrote:

Joe, it looks like they were repairing some of the water channels
inside the dam, which broke a wall and flooded the control room.

That doesn't explain all the physical damage to what had been a very
strongly built building. Was the water channel broken when the turbine
went, or the other way around?

A water hammer on #2 resulted in the destruction of the rotor which
fractured the housing and threw a 900 ton piece of equipment completely off
it's mount. Water continued to flood the hall through the fractured turbine
housing and since all power was lost, the safety systems couldn't open the
safety gates. All of the afected transformers apparently blew as well and
their oil flowed from the building when emergency power came on and the
emergency discharge gates were opened manually.

That's what I got anyway.

JC
I wonder what was the composition of the transformer oil?
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus17616 wrote:

Joe, it looks like they were repairing some of the water channels
inside the dam, which broke a wall and flooded the control room.

That doesn't explain all the physical damage to what had been a very
strongly built building. Was the water channel broken when the turbine
went, or the other way around?

A water hammer on #2 resulted in the destruction of the rotor which
fractured the housing and threw a 900 ton piece of equipment completely
off
it's mount. Water continued to flood the hall through the fractured
turbine
housing and since all power was lost, the safety systems couldn't open the
safety gates. All of the afected transformers apparently blew as well and
their oil flowed from the building when emergency power came on and the
emergency discharge gates were opened manually.

That's what I got anyway.

JC

--
John R. Carroll




some more photos (i hadn't seen these yet).

wow.

http://dfilter.livejournal.com/592091.html


damn shame. terrible tragedy.

the wiki article said the one turbine blowing up caused a electric shutdown
which resulted in the other turbines that were on line to overspeed and blow
up too.
amazing.

b.w.

William Wixon wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus17616 wrote:

Joe, it looks like they were repairing some of the water channels
inside the dam, which broke a wall and flooded the control room.

That doesn't explain all the physical damage to what had been a very
strongly built building. Was the water channel broken when the
turbine went, or the other way around?

A water hammer on #2 resulted in the destruction of the rotor which
fractured the housing and threw a 900 ton piece of equipment
completely off
it's mount. Water continued to flood the hall through the fractured
turbine
housing and since all power was lost, the safety systems couldn't
open the safety gates. All of the afected transformers apparently
blew as well and their oil flowed from the building when emergency
power came on and the emergency discharge gates were opened manually.

That's what I got anyway.

JC

--
John R. Carroll




some more photos (i hadn't seen these yet).

wow.

My reaction exactly.


http://dfilter.livejournal.com/592091.html


damn shame. terrible tragedy.

Just look at the hole to the left side of the fourth picture.
What blew out of it weighed 900 tons and there isn't hide nor hare of it in
site.


--
John R. Carroll

Gerald Miller wrote:
On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 09:22:55 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:


JC
I wonder what was the composition of the transformer oil?

Dioxin, of course.
400 tons of fish reportedly died upstream of the dam.
They got lucky.

--
John R. Carroll

On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 19:16:06 -0400, the infamous Gerald Miller
scrawled the following:

On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 09:22:55 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus17616 wrote:

Joe, it looks like they were repairing some of the water channels
inside the dam, which broke a wall and flooded the control room.

That doesn't explain all the physical damage to what had been a very
strongly built building. Was the water channel broken when the turbine
went, or the other way around?

A water hammer on #2 resulted in the destruction of the rotor which
fractured the housing and threw a 900 ton piece of equipment completely off
it's mount. Water continued to flood the hall through the fractured turbine
housing and since all power was lost, the safety systems couldn't open the
safety gates. All of the afected transformers apparently blew as well and
their oil flowed from the building when emergency power came on and the
emergency discharge gates were opened manually.

That's what I got anyway.

JC
I wonder what was the composition of the transformer oil?

PCBs and a wee bit of oil, ah reckon. (Um, don't drink the downstream
water for a few months, OK, folks?)

--
Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority.
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard
the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all
ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to
be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster

John R. Carroll wrote:
Gerald Miller wrote:
On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 09:22:55 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

JC
I wonder what was the composition of the transformer oil?

Dioxin, of course.
400 tons of fish reportedly died upstream of the dam.
They got lucky.

Any word when the decontamination volunteers will arrive?
Was there much radioactive debris ejected? How high?
Are India, the Mideast and Africa prepared for the fallout?
Will the Russians be able to contain the down-river waste or
are we looking at the loss of 5000 square miles for the next
40 thousand years? What about the site itself? Will they
be able to shield the hot core? How much lead and concrete
will be needed?

Um, excuse me a second.

(A dam? Like with water? Are you sure?)

Never mind.

--Winston

William Wixon wrote:

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus17616 wrote:

Joe, it looks like they were repairing some of the water channels
inside the dam, which broke a wall and flooded the control room.

That doesn't explain all the physical damage to what had been a very
strongly built building. Was the water channel broken when the turbine
went, or the other way around?

A water hammer on #2 resulted in the destruction of the rotor which
fractured the housing and threw a 900 ton piece of equipment completely
off
it's mount. Water continued to flood the hall through the fractured
turbine
housing and since all power was lost, the safety systems couldn't open the
safety gates. All of the afected transformers apparently blew as well and
their oil flowed from the building when emergency power came on and the
emergency discharge gates were opened manually.

That's what I got anyway.

JC

--
John R. Carroll




some more photos (i hadn't seen these yet).

wow.

http://dfilter.livejournal.com/592091.html


damn shame. terrible tragedy.

the wiki article said the one turbine blowing up caused a electric shutdown
which resulted in the other turbines that were on line to overspeed and blow
up too.
amazing.

clever design.

On 2009-08-31, Cydrome Leader wrote:
damn shame. terrible tragedy.

the wiki article said the one turbine blowing up caused a electric shutdown
which resulted in the other turbines that were on line to overspeed and blow
up too.
amazing.

clever design.

An interesting story, all in all. Allows for good after the fact
thinking.

How would one stop a hydroturbine, if its electric load disappeared?
I would suppose that it would overspeed in seconds, so anything to
stop a turbine, would need to be done quickly and automatically.

Open some sort of a sluice in the line that feeds turbine with water,
to divert and dump the water elsewhere, would seem like the only
possible solution.

The amount of available options would depend on how quickly the water
would overspeed the turbine. Such a calculation should be possible
based on available data, such as water column height, turbine mass,
and turbine radius.

i

Ignoramus25738 wrote:

(...)

Open some sort of a sluice in the line that feeds turbine with water,
to divert and dump the water elsewhere, would seem like the only
possible solution.

Penstock valve?

--Winston

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 17:15:50 -0500, Ignoramus25738
wrote:

On 2009-08-31, Cydrome Leader wrote:
damn shame. terrible tragedy.

the wiki article said the one turbine blowing up caused a electric shutdown
which resulted in the other turbines that were on line to overspeed and blow
up too.
amazing.

clever design.

An interesting story, all in all. Allows for good after the fact
thinking.

How would one stop a hydroturbine, if its electric load disappeared?
I would suppose that it would overspeed in seconds, so anything to
stop a turbine, would need to be done quickly and automatically.

Open some sort of a sluice in the line that feeds turbine with water,
to divert and dump the water elsewhere, would seem like the only
possible solution.

The amount of available options would depend on how quickly the water
would overspeed the turbine. Such a calculation should be possible
based on available data, such as water column height, turbine mass,
and turbine radius.

i

I read a long time ago (so take it for what it's worth) that to stop a
water turbine quickly, the best approach was a deflector. The water
is diverted from the turbine wheel by a blade until the penstock
valving can be closed. If you were to slam the penstock valve closed
too fast, the pressure surge from the dynamic head of a huge column of
water moving at speed would destroy the penstock, turbine, etc. I
think the reference was a Perry's handbook, but this was decades ago.

Hmm. Kind of sounds like what happened.

Pete Keillor

Pete Keillor wrote:
On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 17:15:50 -0500, Ignoramus25738
wrote:

On 2009-08-31, Cydrome Leader wrote:
damn shame. terrible tragedy.

the wiki article said the one turbine blowing up caused a electric
shutdown which resulted in the other turbines that were on line to
overspeed and blow up too.
amazing.

clever design.

An interesting story, all in all. Allows for good after the fact
thinking.

How would one stop a hydroturbine, if its electric load disappeared?
I would suppose that it would overspeed in seconds, so anything to
stop a turbine, would need to be done quickly and automatically.

Open some sort of a sluice in the line that feeds turbine with water,
to divert and dump the water elsewhere, would seem like the only
possible solution.

The amount of available options would depend on how quickly the water
would overspeed the turbine. Such a calculation should be possible
based on available data, such as water column height, turbine mass,
and turbine radius.

i

I read a long time ago (so take it for what it's worth) that to stop a
water turbine quickly, the best approach was a deflector. The water
is diverted from the turbine wheel by a blade until the penstock
valving can be closed. If you were to slam the penstock valve closed
too fast, the pressure surge from the dynamic head of a huge column of
water moving at speed would destroy the penstock, turbine, etc. I
think the reference was a Perry's handbook, but this was decades ago.

Hmm. Kind of sounds like what happened.

Sure does.
It's the very definition of an induced water hammer.



--
John R. Carroll

Ignoramus25738 wrote:
On 2009-08-31, Cydrome Leader wrote:
damn shame. terrible tragedy.

the wiki article said the one turbine blowing up caused a electric shutdown
which resulted in the other turbines that were on line to overspeed and blow
up too.
amazing.

clever design.

An interesting story, all in all. Allows for good after the fact
thinking.

How would one stop a hydroturbine, if its electric load disappeared?
I would suppose that it would overspeed in seconds, so anything to
stop a turbine, would need to be done quickly and automatically.

Open some sort of a sluice in the line that feeds turbine with water,
to divert and dump the water elsewhere, would seem like the only
possible solution.

The amount of available options would depend on how quickly the water
would overspeed the turbine. Such a calculation should be possible
based on available data, such as water column height, turbine mass,
and turbine radius.

It sounds like you're ahead of the designers there. I'm not even joking
this time either.

On 2009-09-01, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Ignoramus25738 wrote:
On 2009-08-31, Cydrome Leader wrote:
damn shame. terrible tragedy.

the wiki article said the one turbine blowing up caused a electric shutdown
which resulted in the other turbines that were on line to overspeed and blow
up too.
amazing.

clever design.

An interesting story, all in all. Allows for good after the fact
thinking.

How would one stop a hydroturbine, if its electric load disappeared?
I would suppose that it would overspeed in seconds, so anything to
stop a turbine, would need to be done quickly and automatically.

Open some sort of a sluice in the line that feeds turbine with water,
to divert and dump the water elsewhere, would seem like the only
possible solution.

The amount of available options would depend on how quickly the water
would overspeed the turbine. Such a calculation should be possible
based on available data, such as water column height, turbine mass,
and turbine radius.

It sounds like you're ahead of the designers there. I'm not even joking
this time either.the pow

There are many ****ups, that are very obvious in retrospect, but not
necessarily before the fact. Which is not to suggest that the power
station was well designed.

A very interesting accident is a shutdown of a large portion of
electric grid in northeastern US for several days. Some say now that
hackers were responsible, while others cite cascading troubles from
not so well thought out control systems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Blackout_of_2003

Another one is the famous AT&T telephone shutdown.

http://www.faqs.org/abstracts/Busine...main-on-h.html

By the way, my dad used to design earthen dams (gravity dams) for
hydroelectric power station. Many interesting issues there, such as
interaction with permafrost cold weather, and seepage. Some of the
ones in the far north, used cooling to keep the cores frozen
permanently.

i