Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. Towed the car to my home garage a block away. Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also bad years
ago before they were made in China). The distributor bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. It started and ran well
now, but idled poorly. I checked the air/fuel ratio with a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16 afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes. I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. Ran a propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200 psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. Idle vacuum was kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. Everything else looked
okay. The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. The owner was satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in order. The
engine had 250K plus miles. He asked me if I wanted to do it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. So he took it to a decent local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. Two valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought probable cause for
the poor idle. Well, here is where it gets weird.
It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings, reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears, a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. So the garage tries two other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice. The cam
timing and ignition timing are checked and rechecked. Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless the timing
is advanced way up. Next the garage pulls the stock intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake. No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). The exhaust is then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac. The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. I don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron stock intake
matters one iota. On many manifolds this area is open anyway. I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of time. None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this engine. Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?

"oldjag" wrote in message
...
Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside.


If I had to guess, I'd start with the ignition, if you find the idle mixture
is about right - with the higher compression the ignition is more critical -
put the stock Dist back, new plugs and new wires (and dist cap, etc) and see
if it's better.

If I had to guess, I'd start with the ignition, if you find the idle
mixture is about right - with the higher compression the ignition is more
critical - put the stock Dist back, new plugs and new wires (and dist cap,
etc) and see if it's better.

I'll second the motion. My old man had a saying for old cars, "Its always
the ignition, when you're sure its something else, its in the ignition".
Plus you can see the other shop has beat carburation and valve timing to
death with no effect.

I'd tell this guy, strickly time and materials, no promises. Or, he'll just
be mad at you, also.

Karl

"Bill Noble" wrote in message
...

"oldjag" wrote in message
...
Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside.


If I had to guess, I'd start with the ignition, if you find the idle
mixture is about right - with the higher compression the ignition is more
critical - put the stock Dist back, new plugs and new wires (and dist cap,
etc) and see if it's better.

As crazy as it sounds, I would swap out the coil, even with a used one, just
to check. I have seen ignition coils do some really weird things.

Please let us know what you find out. I love to hear stories of mechanical
puzzles. Seem far to many of them.

oldjag wrote:

SNIP

Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?


All carbs tested could not get a good idle. Any 4 BBL carb should get a
smooth idle on a V-8, as jets do not affect the idle circuit, unless the
power valve is opening.


Check Harmonic balancer for slippage. (i.e. is TDC really TDC?)



What kind of gas is he using? My 442 I used to have had 10.5:1
compression, and would knock like hell unless using at least 96 octane.
Wrong fix is retard initial timing, and delay mechanical advance. Causes
low vacuum, poor idle.

How is the vacuum advance hooked up, ported or direct?

What idle speed are the readings obtained from? Should be about 625-650
rpm in park, and about 600 in drive.


--
Steve Walker
(remove wallet to reply)

"oldjag" wrote in message
...
Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. Towed the car to my home garage a block away. Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also bad years
ago before they were made in China). The distributor bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. It started and ran well
now, but idled poorly. I checked the air/fuel ratio with a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16 afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes. I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. Ran a propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200 psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. Idle vacuum was kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. Everything else looked
okay. The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. The owner was satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in order. The
engine had 250K plus miles. He asked me if I wanted to do it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. So he took it to a decent local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. Two valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought probable cause for
the poor idle. Well, here is where it gets weird.
It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings, reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears, a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. So the garage tries two other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice. The cam
timing and ignition timing are checked and rechecked. Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless the timing
is advanced way up. Next the garage pulls the stock intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake. No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). The exhaust is then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac. The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. I don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron stock intake
matters one iota. On many manifolds this area is open anyway. I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of time. None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this engine. Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?

Dump the Quadrajet.

In article , oldjag wrote:
Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. Towed the car to my home garage a block away.
[...]
I'm sure you simply omitted to mention it, but I didn't see any indication in
your post that the spark plugs were replaced...

One other thing, kind of a long shot, but I've seen it happen befo when the
other shop finished with the rebuild, did they get the plug wires back on
properly? Incorrect firing order would easily account for the idle being
worse, and power way down.

oldjag wrote:
Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. Towed the car to my home garage a block away. Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also bad years
ago before they were made in China). The distributor bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. It started and ran well
now, but idled poorly. I checked the air/fuel ratio with a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16 afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes. I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. Ran a propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200 psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. Idle vacuum was kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. Everything else looked
okay. The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. The owner was satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in order. The
engine had 250K plus miles. He asked me if I wanted to do it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. So he took it to a decent local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. Two valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought probable cause for
the poor idle. Well, here is where it gets weird.
It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings, reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears, a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. So the garage tries two other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice. The cam
timing and ignition timing are checked and rechecked. Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless the timing
is advanced way up. Next the garage pulls the stock intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake. No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). The exhaust is then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac. The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. I don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron stock intake
matters one iota. On many manifolds this area is open anyway. I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of time. None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this engine. Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?

Two thoughts:

Cracked manifold can lean the mixture, as it is part of the PCV circuit.
It would have the same effect as a PCV valve stuck open, or a cracked
hose to PCV.
It does have a PCV valve, right? And an air inlet in the other valve
cover?

Camshaft - if it has any more overlap than stock, the idle mixture can
go rich. We used to have to crack the secondaries a bit on Holleys to
compensate for a hotter cam. Yours may not be hot enough to matter, and
the secondary butterflies may not have an adjustment.
Look at the overlap specs on the cam, and consider going back to
stock cam.

Vac 12 inches - at what vacuum does the power enrichment kick in on the
Qjet? It's possible it is set to something close to the average
vacuum, and just dribbling additional fuel, but not enough to raise the
avg mixture on your A/F meter.

In article
,
oldjag wrote:

Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. Towed the car to my home garage a block away. Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also bad years
ago before they were made in China). The distributor bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. It started and ran well
now, but idled poorly. I checked the air/fuel ratio with a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16 afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes. I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. Ran a propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200 psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. Idle vacuum was kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. Everything else looked
okay. The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. The owner was satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in order. The
engine had 250K plus miles. He asked me if I wanted to do it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. So he took it to a decent local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. Two valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought probable cause for
the poor idle. Well, here is where it gets weird.
It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings, reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears, a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. So the garage tries two other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice. The cam
timing and ignition timing are checked and rechecked. Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless the timing
is advanced way up. Next the garage pulls the stock intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake. No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). The exhaust is then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac. The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. I don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron stock intake
matters one iota. On many manifolds this area is open anyway. I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of time. None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this engine. Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?


Hmmm... just for snorts & giggles, take a look at the harmonic balancer.
Has deteriorating rubber allowed the outer ring (along with the timing
mark) to slip around?

Your low manifold vacuum that improves with advanced ignition timing is
what makes me suspicious. Slipped balancers are not unheard of,
especially on older engines.

If this should be the case, there are places around that rebuild them
for a lot less than new, ask the folks at your machine shop.

Good luck, let us know how it comes out.

Erik

On Aug 27, 1:58*am, oldjag wrote:
Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. *Towed the car to my home garage a block away. *Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also bad years
ago before they were made in China). *The distributor bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. *It started and ran well
now, but idled poorly. *I checked the air/fuel ratio with a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16 afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes. I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. *Ran a propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200 psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. *Idle vacuum was kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. * *Everything else looked
okay. *The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. *The owner was satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in order. *The
engine had 250K plus miles. *He asked me if I wanted to do it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. *So he took it to a decent local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. *Two valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought probable cause for
the poor idle. *Well, here is where it gets weird.
* It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings, reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears, a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. *So the garage tries two other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice. *The cam
timing and *ignition timing are checked and rechecked. *Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless the timing
is advanced way up. *Next the garage pulls the stock intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake. *No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). *The exhaust is then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac. The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. *I don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron stock intake
matters one iota. *On many manifolds this area is open anyway. *I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of time. *None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this engine. *Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?

Stock carb, and the carbs they tried, could all have worn throttle
shaft bushings.

It's easy to overlook this vacuum leak, and it also allows the
throttle plates to randomly open-and-close a bit as it idles.

A Qjet in good shape is a *great* carb.

Dave

"

Hmmm... just for snorts & giggles, take a look at the harmonic balancer.
Has deteriorating rubber allowed the outer ring (along with the timing
mark) to slip around?

Your low manifold vacuum that improves with advanced ignition timing is
what makes me suspicious. Slipped balancers are not unheard of,
especially on older engines.

If this should be the case, there are places around that rebuild them
for a lot less than new, ask the folks at your machine shop.

Good luck, let us know how it comes out.

on most cars, the damper is pinned, though it can shift a little - the place
I use for rebuilding (they do good work) is "DameprDoc"

Steve Lusardi wrote:
The key is low idle vacuum. You have a leak or you have lost index on
the balancer and TDC needs to be verified. Don't overlook the brake
vacuum booster, throttle shafts on the carb,PVC valve or EGR valve leakage.
Steve

No EGR on that one, though the aluminum manifold may have provision for one.



"oldjag" wrote in message
...
Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. Towed the car to my home garage a block away. Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also bad years
ago before they were made in China). The distributor bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. It started and ran well
now, but idled poorly. I checked the air/fuel ratio with a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16 afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes. I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. Ran a propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200 psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. Idle vacuum was kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. Everything else looked
okay. The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. The owner was satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in order. The
engine had 250K plus miles. He asked me if I wanted to do it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. So he took it to a decent local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. Two valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought probable cause for
the poor idle. Well, here is where it gets weird.
It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings, reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears, a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. So the garage tries two other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice. The cam
timing and ignition timing are checked and rechecked. Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless the timing
is advanced way up. Next the garage pulls the stock intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake. No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). The exhaust is then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac. The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. I don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron stock intake
matters one iota. On many manifolds this area is open anyway. I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of time. None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this engine. Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
The key is low idle vacuum. You have a leak or you have lost index on the
balancer and TDC needs to be verified. Don't overlook the brake vacuum
booster, throttle shafts on the carb,PVC valve or EGR valve leakage.
Steve


if the idle is irregular the vacuum will be low, whether the irregularity is
due to ignition problems, valves, a leak, or something else. To me, at
least, on that vintage engine, the sound of the engine is very distinct if
it is fuel starved, or fuel rich, and it changes if the timing (ignition
timing) is off also. Of couse the descriptions here are text only and don't
include sound files, but here's my impression

lean - harsh sound
rich - soft labored sound
advanced - sharp stacatto sound
retarded - labored and weak sound

take a thin hose, hold one end near your ear and move the other end around
the manifold, carb, plugs, etc - listen and see if you hear leakage

On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 07:30:25 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

If I had to guess, I'd start with the ignition, if you find the idle
mixture is about right - with the higher compression the ignition is more
critical - put the stock Dist back, new plugs and new wires (and dist cap,
etc) and see if it's better.

I'll second the motion. My old man had a saying for old cars, "Its always
the ignition, when you're sure its something else, its in the ignition".
Plus you can see the other shop has beat carburation and valve timing to
death with no effect.

I'd tell this guy, strickly time and materials, no promises. Or, he'll just
be mad at you, also.

Karl

Find a "high energy"distributor from a later model olds and put it in.
Guaranteed adequate spark. Then go from there. If 60,000+ volts won't
fire the plugs, nothing will

On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 19:59:24 -0700, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

The key is low idle vacuum. You have a leak or you have lost index on the balancer and TDC needs to be verified. Don't overlook
the brake vacuum booster, throttle shafts on the carb,PVC valve or EGR valve leakage.
Steve

Don't overlook the vacuum break for the automatic choke either. VERY
common failure point on '60s QJ carbs. If the diaphragm is leaking
you will NOT get it to idle smoothly. PERIOD.

First thing I would do is verify compression. A good leakdown
(aircraft type) tester would be handy as well.
Then VERIFY ignition timing mark (damper) - and if compression is
even but low verify valve timing.
A good ignition scope and someone who knows how to read it can verify
both primary and secondary ignition - I'd put a NEW set of the proper
AC plugs in. With a hot cam, the proper plug will be COLDER than
original. Then check or replace the wires and coil. My preference
would be to put in a later model high energy (electronic) distributor
with the coil built in. and 8mm mag-core wires
Then check ALL vacuum devices for leaks. Block the lines to the heater
controls for testing purposes, and use a "mighty-vac" to check all
diapragms etc. Feed a bit of propane through a hose to all suspected
vac leak areas (throttle shafts, base gaskets, etc that cannot be
verified mechanically..

Unless the replacement cam is "wild" getting it to idle should not be
hard. Getting it to PERFORM can be more difficult.

"oldjag" wrote in message ...
Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. Towed the car to my home garage a block away. Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also bad years
ago before they were made in China). The distributor bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. It started and ran well
now, but idled poorly. I checked the air/fuel ratio with a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16 afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes. I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. Ran a propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200 psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. Idle vacuum was kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. Everything else looked
okay. The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. The owner was satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in order. The
engine had 250K plus miles. He asked me if I wanted to do it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. So he took it to a decent local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. Two valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought probable cause for
the poor idle. Well, here is where it gets weird.
It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings, reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears, a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. So the garage tries two other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice. The cam
timing and ignition timing are checked and rechecked. Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless the timing
is advanced way up. Next the garage pulls the stock intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake. No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). The exhaust is then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac. The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. I don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron stock intake
matters one iota. On many manifolds this area is open anyway. I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of time. None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this engine. Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?

by the way, a friend used to drive a olds 442 - a bit older than 69 - there
is nothing like shifting into 4th and burning rubber at 120mph to prove that
you have way too much horsepower.

The key is low idle vacuum. You have a leak or you have lost index on the balancer and TDC needs to be verified. Don't overlook
the brake vacuum booster, throttle shafts on the carb,PVC valve or EGR valve leakage.
Steve

"oldjag" wrote in message ...
Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. Towed the car to my home garage a block away. Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also bad years
ago before they were made in China). The distributor bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. It started and ran well
now, but idled poorly. I checked the air/fuel ratio with a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16 afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes. I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. Ran a propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200 psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. Idle vacuum was kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. Everything else looked
okay. The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. The owner was satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in order. The
engine had 250K plus miles. He asked me if I wanted to do it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. So he took it to a decent local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. Two valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought probable cause for
the poor idle. Well, here is where it gets weird.
It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings, reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears, a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. So the garage tries two other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice. The cam
timing and ignition timing are checked and rechecked. Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless the timing
is advanced way up. Next the garage pulls the stock intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake. No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). The exhaust is then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac. The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. I don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron stock intake
matters one iota. On many manifolds this area is open anyway. I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of time. None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this engine. Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?

On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 20:59:09 -0700, the infamous JR North
scrawled the following:

Kudus for all the good replies.

Huh? Y'mean "kudos", Jace? vbg
http://www.wildlife-pictures-online....-0010_blog.jpg



I vote for 2 problems:
1. Problem started after 1st ditributor replacement: Timing is off.
Going through several mechanics-must be basic, thus unfound. Verify
TDC #1-ck balancer

This is one I'd never seen while wrenching, but I have heard of it
happening.


2. Vacuum leak-definately. Big one, too. I vote for brake booster.
HVAC -not enough to materially affect idle. Intake manifolds replaced;
unlikely but possible leaks bottom side of intake runners at head
ports. PCV valve wide open-probable.

Yeah, vacuum leaks are #2 for rough or no idle after clogged idle jet
circuits (in unrebuildable Holleys. I didn't see many open brake
boosters but saw lots of loose or split vacuum hoses, missing caps,
misrouted vacuum lines, and open EGR valves in later models. I'd vote
for the leak at the new Edelbrock intake. I saw that a whole lot.


BTW: aint noth'n wrong with Qjets.

Yeah, I much preferred Rottenchesters to Holleys for GM products.

--
A striking fact of the last two years of financial trouble is how
accountability has differed in the public and private spheres. On
Wall Street and across the country, decades-old firms have failed,
fortunes have vanished, and some former captains of finance face
jail or fines. In Washington, meanwhile, most regulators and Members
of Congress remain on the job, often with enhanced power.
-WSJ "Bernanke's Second Chance" 26aug09

Bill Noble wrote:
by the way, a friend used to drive a olds 442 - a bit older than 69 -
there is nothing like shifting into 4th and burning rubber at 120mph to
prove that you have way too much horsepower.

.....or not enough tire!

14" tires on 7" rims.
Polyglass GT bias-plies.

JR North wrote:

2. Vacuum leak-definately. Big one, too. I vote for brake booster.
HVAC -not enough to materially affect idle. Intake manifolds replaced;
unlikely but possible leaks bottom side of intake runners at head
ports.

When the heads were rebuilt, did they surface them?
A deep cut or several light cuts can leave the manifold mismatched to
the vee formed by the heads. If you end up pulling the manifold, check
for port matching. Look at the gaskets you remove and try to determine
if they were sealing all around each port.

On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 18:05:34 -0700, "Bill Noble"
wrote:

by the way, a friend used to drive a olds 442 - a bit older than 69 - there
is nothing like shifting into 4th and burning rubber at 120mph to prove that
you have way too much horsepower.

Nope - 80's Grand Cherokee with a Cadillac 502. That'll rattle your
fillings...

-- Bruce --

On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 20:16:57 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 07:30:25 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

If I had to guess, I'd start with the ignition, if you find the idle
mixture is about right - with the higher compression the ignition is more
critical - put the stock Dist back, new plugs and new wires (and dist cap,
etc) and see if it's better.

I'll second the motion. My old man had a saying for old cars, "Its always
the ignition, when you're sure its something else, its in the ignition".
Plus you can see the other shop has beat carburation and valve timing to
death with no effect.

I'd tell this guy, strickly time and materials, no promises. Or, he'll just
be mad at you, also.

Karl

Find a "high energy"distributor from a later model olds and put it in.
Guaranteed adequate spark. Then go from there. If 60,000+ volts won't
fire the plugs, nothing will


Been done. Original post, "and a new non points type HEI distributor
and wires"

On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 10:26:03 -0500, RBnDFW
wrote:

Bill Noble wrote:
by the way, a friend used to drive a olds 442 - a bit older than 69 -
there is nothing like shifting into 4th and burning rubber at 120mph to
prove that you have way too much horsepower.

....or not enough tire!

14" tires on 7" rims.
Polyglass GT bias-plies.

More correctly, Bias-belted

On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 22:58:49 -0700 (PDT), oldjag
wrote:

Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. Towed the car to my home garage a block away. Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also bad years
ago before they were made in China). The distributor bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. It started and ran well
now, but idled poorly. I checked the air/fuel ratio with a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16 afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes. I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. Ran a propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200 psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. Idle vacuum was kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. Everything else looked
okay. The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. The owner was satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in order. The
engine had 250K plus miles. He asked me if I wanted to do it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. So he took it to a decent local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. Two valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought probable cause for
the poor idle. Well, here is where it gets weird.
It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings, reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears, a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. So the garage tries two other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice. The cam
timing and ignition timing are checked and rechecked. Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless the timing
is advanced way up. Next the garage pulls the stock intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake. No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). The exhaust is then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac. The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. I don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron stock intake
matters one iota. On many manifolds this area is open anyway. I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of time. None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this engine. Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?

Transmission modulator?

"oldjag" wrote in message Some metal content,
(barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died
on the
roadside. Towed the car to my home garage a block away.
Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue
Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap
pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also
bad years
ago before they were made in China). The distributor
bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. It started
and ran well
now, but idled poorly. I checked the air/fuel ratio with
a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16
afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one
that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and
reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter
thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now
okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still
almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes.
I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. Ran a
propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200
psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. Idle vacuum was
kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. Everything
else looked
okay. The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled
really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear
etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. The owner was
satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in
order. The
engine had 250K plus miles. He asked me if I wanted to do
it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. So he took it to a decent
local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. Two
valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought
probable cause for
the poor idle. Well, here is where it gets weird.
It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a
rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve
job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings,
reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears,
a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor
and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's
worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. So the garage tries two
other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice.
The cam
timing and ignition timing are checked and rechecked.
Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam
installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly
more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless
the timing
is advanced way up. Next the garage pulls the stock
intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake.
No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the
secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external
air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). The exhaust is
then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac.
The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still
bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no
accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the
owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on
who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably
healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet
Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell
the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. I
don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron
stock intake
matters one iota. On many manifolds this area is open
anyway. I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of
time. None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this
engine. Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?

It looks like you have already tried all the things that
have been suggested
by the guys responding except for one: The crankshaft
vibration damper.
The outer ring must have rotated slightly giving you late
ignition timing.
My vote goes with those that said that that was the
problem......phil

It looks like you have already tried all the things that
have been suggested
by the guys responding except for one: The crankshaft
vibration damper.
The outer ring must have rotated slightly giving you late
ignition timing.
My vote goes with those that said that that was the
problem......phil


add another vote for this, check the timing mark on the balancer. Is
the pointer welded or bolted to the front of the motor, I've seen the
wrong one installed on the bolt on type.

BTW, I've never seen or heard of a stock factory damper that was
pinned, maybe a high performace aftermarket, but not an OEM.
Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.

"oldjag" wrote in message Some metal content,
(barely)...
This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died
on the
roadside. Towed the car to my home garage a block away.

Hey there oldjag, there's a lot of guys waiting to hear what
you came up
with to fix this idle problem! Let us know, eih?
please........phil

wrote:
On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 22:58:49 -0700 (PDT), oldjag
wrote:

Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. Towed the car to my home garage a block away. Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also bad years
ago before they were made in China). The distributor bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. It started and ran well
now, but idled poorly. I checked the air/fuel ratio with a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16 afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes. I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. Ran a propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200 psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. Idle vacuum was kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. Everything else looked
okay. The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. The owner was satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in order. The
engine had 250K plus miles. He asked me if I wanted to do it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. So he took it to a decent local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. Two valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought probable cause for
the poor idle. Well, here is where it gets weird.
It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings, reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears, a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. So the garage tries two other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice. The cam
timing and ignition timing are checked and rechecked. Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless the timing
is advanced way up. Next the garage pulls the stock intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake. No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). The exhaust is then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac. The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. I don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron stock intake
matters one iota. On many manifolds this area is open anyway. I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of time. None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this engine. Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?

Transmission modulator?

good call, Andy. Be sure to check that.

On Aug 27, 11:04*am, RBnDFW wrote:
oldjagwrote:
Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. *Towed the car to my home garage a block away. *Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also bad years
ago before they were made in China). *The distributor bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. *It started and ran well
now, but idled poorly. *I checked the air/fuel ratio with a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16 afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes. I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. *Ran a propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200 psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. *Idle vacuum was kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. * *Everything else looked
okay. *The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. *The owner was satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in order. *The
engine had 250K plus miles. *He asked me if I wanted to do it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. *So he took it to a decent local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. *Two valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought probable cause for
the poor idle. *Well, here is where it gets weird.
* It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings, reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears, a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. *So the garage tries two other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice. *The cam
timing and *ignition timing are checked and rechecked. *Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless the timing
is advanced way up. *Next the garage pulls the stock intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake. *No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). *The exhaust is then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac. The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. *I don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron stock intake
matters one iota. *On many manifolds this area is open anyway. *I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of time. *None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this engine. *Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?

Two thoughts:

Cracked manifold can lean the mixture, as it is part of the PCV circuit.
It would have the same effect as a PCV valve stuck open, or a cracked
hose to PCV.
* * It does have a PCV valve, right? And an air inlet in the other valve
cover?

Camshaft - if it has any more overlap than stock, the idle mixture can
go rich. We used to have to crack the secondaries a bit on Holleys to
compensate for a hotter cam. Yours may not be hot enough to matter, and
the secondary butterflies may not have an adjustment.
* * *Look at the overlap specs on the cam, and consider going back to
stock cam.

Vac 12 inches - at what vacuum does the power enrichment kick in on the
Qjet? * It's possible it is set to something close to the average
vacuum, and just dribbling additional fuel, but not enough to raise the
avg mixture on your A/F meter.

Yeah that's one of the concerns I have with the Q jet in this
situation, it might be possible the power valve is opening slightly at
idle. Won't be able to tell much more until the owner is able to work
things out with the shop on payment and get the vehicle over for me to
look at it further. We may order a Q jet master jetting kit that
hopefully has the required parts to recalibrate the power valve and
get the main circuits flowing right under load.

On Aug 27, 12:25*pm, XR650L_Dave wrote:
On Aug 27, wrote:



Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. *Towed the car to my home garage a block away. *Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also bad years
ago before they were made in China). *The distributor bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. *It started and ran well
now, but idled poorly. *I checked the air/fuel ratio with a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16 afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes. I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. *Ran a propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200 psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. *Idle vacuum was kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. * *Everything else looked
okay. *The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. *The owner was satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in order. *The
engine had 250K plus miles. *He asked me if I wanted to do it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. *So he took it to a decent local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. *Two valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought probable cause for
the poor idle. *Well, here is where it gets weird.
* It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings, reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears, a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. *So the garage tries two other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice. *The cam
timing and *ignition timing are checked and rechecked. *Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless the timing
is advanced way up. *Next the garage pulls the stock intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake. *No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). *The exhaust is then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac. The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. *I don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron stock intake
matters one iota. *On many manifolds this area is open anyway. *I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of time. *None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this engine. *Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?

Stock carb, and the carbs they tried, could all have worn throttle
shaft bushings.

It's easy to overlook this vacuum leak, and it also allows the
throttle plates to randomly open-and-close a bit as it idles.

A Qjet in good shape is a *great* carb.

Dave

The shafts in the Q Jet carb that I last saw on the car are in good
shape.

On Aug 27, 3:16*pm, RBnDFW wrote:
Steve Lusardi wrote:
The key is low idle vacuum. You have a leak or you have lost index on
the balancer and TDC *needs to be verified. Don't overlook the brake
vacuum booster, throttle shafts on the carb,PVC valve or EGR valve leakage.
Steve

No EGR on that one, though the aluminum manifold may have provision for one.



"oldjag" wrote in message
....
Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. *Towed the car to my home garage a block away. *Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also bad years
ago before they were made in China). *The distributor bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. *It started and ran well
now, but idled poorly. *I checked the air/fuel ratio with a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16 afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes. I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. *Ran a propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200 psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. *Idle vacuum was kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. * *Everything else looked
okay. *The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. *The owner was satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in order. *The
engine had 250K plus miles. *He asked me if I wanted to do it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. *So he took it to a decent local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. *Two valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought probable cause for
the poor idle. *Well, here is where it gets weird.
*It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings, reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears, a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. *So the garage tries two other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice. *The cam
timing and *ignition timing are checked and rechecked. *Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless the timing
is advanced way up. *Next the garage pulls the stock intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake. *No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). *The exhaust is then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac. The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. *I don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron stock intake
matters one iota. *On many manifolds this area is open anyway. *I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of time. *None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this engine. *Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?

No EGR valve is in place. All vac lines were pulled off, and PCV
checked and replaced with new. Damper was checked vs TDC when engine
was apart and was supposedly okay.

On Aug 27, 12:09*pm, Erik wrote:
In article
,



wrote:
Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. *Towed the car to my home garage a block away. *Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also bad years
ago before they were made in China). *The distributor bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. *It started and ran well
now, but idled poorly. *I checked the air/fuel ratio with a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16 afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes. I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. *Ran a propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200 psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. *Idle vacuum was kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. * *Everything else looked
okay. *The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. *The owner was satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in order. *The
engine had 250K plus miles. *He asked me if I wanted to do it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. *So he took it to a decent local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. *Two valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought probable cause for
the poor idle. *Well, here is where it gets weird.
* It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings, reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears, a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. *So the garage tries two other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice. *The cam
timing and *ignition timing are checked and rechecked. *Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless the timing
is advanced way up. *Next the garage pulls the stock intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake. *No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). *The exhaust is then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac. The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. *I don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron stock intake
matters one iota. *On many manifolds this area is open anyway. *I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of time. *None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this engine. *Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?

Hmmm... just for snorts & giggles, take a look at the harmonic balancer.
Has deteriorating rubber allowed the outer ring (along with the timing
mark) to slip around?

Your low manifold vacuum that improves with advanced ignition timing is
what makes me suspicious. Slipped balancers are not unheard of,
especially on older engines.

If this should be the case, there are places around that rebuild them
for a lot less than new, ask the folks at your machine shop.

Good luck, let us know how it comes out.

Erik

The damper was checked vs actual TDC when the engine was apart, and
was okay as per the engine builder, but when I get my hands on the car
it will be rechecked.

On Aug 27, 8:29*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 19:59:24 -0700, "Steve Lusardi"

wrote:
The key is low idle vacuum. You have a leak or you have lost index on the balancer and TDC *needs to be verified. Don't overlook
the brake vacuum booster, throttle shafts on the carb,PVC valve or EGR valve leakage.
Steve

Don't overlook the vacuum break for the automatic choke either. VERY
common failure point on '60s QJ carbs. *If the diaphragm is leaking
you will NOT get it to idle smoothly. PERIOD.

First thing I would do is verify compression. A good leakdown
(aircraft type) tester *would be handy as well.
*Then VERIFY ignition timing mark (damper) - and if compression is
even but low verify valve timing.
A good ignition scope and someone who knows how to read it can verify
both primary and secondary ignition - I'd put a NEW set of the proper
AC plugs in. With a hot cam, the proper plug will be COLDER than
original. Then check or replace the wires and coil. My preference
would be to put in a later model high energy (electronic) distributor
with the coil built in. and 8mm mag-core wires
Then check ALL vacuum devices for leaks. Block the lines to the heater
controls for testing purposes, and use a "mighty-vac" to check all
diapragms etc. Feed a bit of propane through a hose to all suspected
vac leak areas (throttle shafts, base gaskets, etc that cannot be
verified mechanically..

Unless the replacement cam is "wild" getting it to idle should not be
hard. Getting it to PERFORM can be more difficult.



"oldjag" wrote in ...
Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. *Towed the car to my home garage a block away. *Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also bad years
ago before they were made in China). *The distributor bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. *It started and ran well
now, but idled poorly. *I checked the air/fuel ratio with a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16 afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes. I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. *Ran a propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200 psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. *Idle vacuum was kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. * *Everything else looked
okay. *The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. *The owner was satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in order. *The
engine had 250K plus miles. *He asked me if I wanted to do it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. *So he took it to a decent local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. *Two valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought probable cause for
the poor idle. *Well, here is where it gets weird.
*It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings, reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears, a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. *So the garage tries two other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice. *The cam
timing and *ignition timing are checked and rechecked. *Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless the timing
is advanced way up. *Next the garage pulls the stock intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake. *No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). *The exhaust is then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac. The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. *I don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron stock intake
matters one iota. *On many manifolds this area is open anyway. *I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of time. *None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this engine. *Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?

Still waiting for the owner to get the car out of the shop where it is
now, but the vac pull off is really something to be looked at. Plugs
and wires are new, and a HEI dist. was installed, all vac lines were
isolated, and propane checked were done, but as I noted that was done
prior to the rebuild, so I'll probably need to go over a lot of things
again.

On Aug 28, 8:07*am, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 20:59:09 -0700, the infamous JR North
scrawled the following:

Kudus for all the good replies.

Huh? *Y'mean "kudos", Jace? *vbghttp://www.wildlife-pictures-online....u_slwp-0010_bl...

I vote for 2 problems:
1. Problem started after 1st ditributor replacement: Timing is off.
Going through several mechanics-must be basic, thus unfound. Verify
TDC #1-ck balancer

This is one I'd never seen while wrenching, but I have heard of it
happening.

2. Vacuum leak-definately. Big one, too. I vote for brake booster.
HVAC -not enough to materially affect idle. Intake manifolds replaced;
unlikely but possible leaks bottom side of intake runners at head
ports. PCV valve wide open-probable.

Yeah, vacuum leaks are #2 for rough or no idle after clogged idle jet
circuits (in unrebuildable Holleys. *I didn't see many open brake
boosters but saw lots of loose or split vacuum hoses, missing caps,
misrouted vacuum lines, and open EGR valves in later models. I'd vote
for the leak at the new Edelbrock intake. I saw that a whole lot.

BTW: aint noth'n wrong with Qjets.

Yeah, I much preferred Rottenchesters to Holleys for GM products.

--
A striking fact of the last two years of financial trouble is how
accountability has differed in the public and private spheres. On
Wall Street and across the country, decades-old firms have failed,
fortunes have vanished, and some former captains of finance face
jail or fines. In Washington, meanwhile, most regulators and Members
of Congress remain on the job, often with enhanced power.
*-WSJ "Bernanke's Second Chance" 26aug09

Well, the owner is having the shop put the stock intake back on, as he
does not want to pay for the Edlebrock or have a non-stock looking
intake.

On Aug 28, 11:28*am, RBnDFW wrote:
JR North wrote:
2. Vacuum leak-definately. Big one, too. I vote for brake booster.
HVAC -not enough to materially affect idle. Intake manifolds replaced;
unlikely but possible leaks bottom side of intake runners at head
ports.

When the heads were rebuilt, did they surface them?
A deep cut or several light cuts can leave the manifold mismatched to
the vee formed by the heads. If you end up pulling the manifold, check
for port matching. Look at the gaskets you remove and try to determine
if they were sealing all around each port.

The heads were pretty straight, so only a few thou was removed. The
shop working on it seems to think the intake gaskets were sealing to
the heads, uniform pattern.etc., but who knows, until I see it again
first hand I won't really know.

On Aug 28, 5:21*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 22:58:49 -0700 (PDT),oldjag



wrote:
Some metal content, (barely)...This started last spring actually when
I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died on the
roadside. *Towed the car to my home garage a block away. *Found very
weak spark and traced problem to a made in China, Blue Steak brand
distributor cap that was molded in such a way that the cap pushed on
the breaker points, (actually Blue Streak quality was also bad years
ago before they were made in China). *The distributor bearings were
also in dire shape so the dist was replaced. *It started and ran well
now, but idled poorly. *I checked the air/fuel ratio with a Innovate
wide ratio afr meter and it was lean at idle, about 15-16 afr, and far
too lean for an old car at idle.
The owner had another Quadrajet carb., actually the one that came on
the car, so I rebuilt it, installed a new fuel filter and reinstalled
the carb. Other than the usual stripped inlet filter thread, the carb
looked in good shape. On startup the air fuel was now okay, around
13:1 at idle, and the idle quality was better but still almost
sounding like a miss when listening at the the tailpipes. I checked
for air leaks, brake booster booster, PCV etc. *Ran a propane check to
look for leaks around the manifold, compression was 200 psi. on six
cylinders and 180-190 on two others. *Idle vacuum was kinda low at 14
inches, at the intial timing of 8 degrees. * *Everything else looked
okay. *The car ran great except at idle, ie it pulled really well at
WOT, chirped the tires when the automatic hit second gear etc., and
lots of torque, but still a lousy idle. *The owner was satisfied for a
while, but in the fall decided a engine rebuild was in order. *The
engine had 250K plus miles. *He asked me if I wanted to do it, but I d
too many irons in the fire. *So he took it to a decent local garage
where they yanked the engine for a total rebuild. *Two valves appeared
to have been leaking, so intially this was thought probable cause for
the poor idle. *Well, here is where it gets weird.
*It went off too the machine shop, got hot tanked, got a rebore
0.030" over, stock compression pistons, a 5 angle valve job, new
valve, and valve springs, lifters, cam and main bearings, reground
crank, fuel pump, oil pump, roller timing chain and gears, a new Pro
Comp "mild cam" and a new non points type HEI distributor and wires.
Now get this...it still does not idle right, in fact it's worse and
power is down a quite a bit also. *So the garage tries two other
(used) stock Quadrjet and two Holley carbs, still no dice. *The cam
timing and *ignition timing are checked and rechecked. *Compression is
now 220 psi on all eight.
The CompCam is pulled, and an Edlebrock Performer Plus Cam installed.
This is a pretty mild cam, almost stock duration, slightly more lift.
Idle is still crap and vac. won't go over 12 inches unless the timing
is advanced way up. *Next the garage pulls the stock intake manifold
and puts on a Edlebrock Performer Plus aluminum intake. *No real
change. (A hairline crack was noticed between the secondary bores of
the stock iron intake, but this does not cause an external air leak
and would not effect idle in any case). *The exhaust is then dropped
and idle quality does not improve, ie still poor idle vac. The torque
converter is unbolted from the flexplate, idle is still bad, vac.
comes up slightly. Belts are pulled from the fan so no accessories are
running, still no change.

Now the garage wants more money to go further and the owner is livid.
I told the owner to get to an agreement with the shop on who owes what
and bring the car over to let me look at it.
My feeling at this point is that the engine is probably healthy from a
mechanical standpoint, but that the existing Quadrajet Carb.may simply
need to be properly set up for the new cam.

The plan now is to put the stock intake back on and sell the Edlebrock
manifold, as the owner wants a stock looking motor. *I don't think the
hairline crack between the secondary bores on the iron stock intake
matters one iota. *On many manifolds this area is open anyway. *I
could TIG it up, but I guessing this would be a waste of time. *None
of the carbs tried may have been jetted right for this engine. *Any
Quadrajet/Olds experts out there care to weigh in?

Transmission modulator?

Nope, checked that.

On Aug 30, 9:25*pm, "Phil Kangas" wrote:
"oldjag" wrote in message Some metal content,

(barely)...
* *This started last spring actually when

I helped a driver in an '69 olds 442 convertable that died
on the
roadside. *Towed the car to my home garage a block away.

Hey thereoldjag, there's a lot of guys waiting to hear what
you came up
with to fix this idle problem! Let us know, eih?
please........phil

I should have more of an update soon. The owner brought it over
yesterday and I took it for a drive. First impression when I first
heard it is that it has a lot more cam duration in it than what was
thought. It idles fairly lumpy at what sounds like about 850 RPM in
neutral and gets worse in gear, but does not sound like a miss. It's
not loading up, and it pulls strongly from a stop. Feels quite a bit
stronger than a stock '69 442 Auto should. Also knocks a fair amount
on premium at high RPM, probably because they dialed in so much
initial advance to make it idle smoother. When I get some time, this
weekend maybe, I hope to see if we can tweak the Qjet for a little
better idle by changing the power valve spring.

Another question is that Old's used a 45 degree valve lifter angle
on some early 400's and a 39 degree bank angle on later engines. It's
possible there was a mixup and it has the wrong cam for the specific
block. To my knowledge it's the original engine in the car so it
should be a 39 degree block with the correct cam for a 39 degree
block. This can cause a hell of an idle problem as one bank is
advanced and the other retarded but the engine will still run okay at
higher speed.