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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Making thin copper gaskets
I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working
on. These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". Any suggestions on cutting them out evenly so that they're neither burred nor bent when I'm done? -- http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#2
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Making thin copper gaskets
Thin stock, use scissors. Use copper, brass would be too hard.
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#3
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Making thin copper gaskets
On May 30, 6:10*pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working on. *These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". Any suggestions on cutting them out evenly so that they're neither burred nor bent when I'm done? --http://www.wescottdesign.com Four options come immediately to mind: 1) Hollow punches, which you could make if you don't already have; 2) Sandwich the copper between sheets of something more sturdy that you can then machine more "normally", or just laminate it onto a sturdy substrate (think 'printed circuit board', where they routinely drill and rout very thin copper that is glued to a fiberglass substrate). 3) Water jet 4) Laser p. |
#4
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Making thin copper gaskets
On Sat, 30 May 2009 15:36:53 -0700, rangerssuck wrote:
On May 30, 6:10Â*pm, Tim Wescott wrote: I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working on. Â*These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". Any suggestions on cutting them out evenly so that they're neither burred nor bent when I'm done? --http://www.wescottdesign.com Four options come immediately to mind: 1) Hollow punches, which you could make if you don't already have; 2) Sandwich the copper between sheets of something more sturdy that you can then machine more "normally", or just laminate it onto a sturdy substrate (think 'printed circuit board', where they routinely drill and rout very thin copper that is glued to a fiberglass substrate). 3) Water jet 4) Laser Water jet and laser are beyond the capabilities of my shop, but the hollow punches or backing it up with sacrificial material both sound like viable options. The punches will leave burrs, I suspect, but if they're even enough I can beat them flat between flat plates. -- http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#6
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Making thin copper gaskets
Tim Wescott wrote:
I need to make some head shims/gaskets These need to be of thin copper or brass, Coat thin copper with resist. Scribe outline of gasket with fine point. dump in ferric chloride. Kevin Gallimore |
#7
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Making thin copper gaskets
On May 30, 5:10*pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working on. *These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". Any suggestions on cutting them out evenly so that they're neither burred nor bent when I'm done? --http://www.wescottdesign.com Ever consider making them from copper wire? Wrap the wire around a form, make one cut to turn the coil into rings then solder the ends to make rings |
#8
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Making thin copper gaskets
On a different track than most of the answers, I think I would use a dremmil
tool. Just drill the holes undersize and then use grinder stones to bring them up to ,marked size. LLB "Tim Wescott" wrote in message ... I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working on. These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". Any suggestions on cutting them out evenly so that they're neither burred nor bent when I'm done? -- http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#9
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Making thin copper gaskets
You mean these?
Ebay: 370204317171 These are for the .049, but this guy claims to have more parts than anyone else. Pete Stanaitis --------------------------- Tim Wescott wrote: I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working on. These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". Any suggestions on cutting them out evenly so that they're neither burred nor bent when I'm done? |
#10
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Making thin copper gaskets
On Sun, 31 May 2009 08:42:24 -0500, spaco wrote:
Tim Wescott wrote: I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working on. These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". Any suggestions on cutting them out evenly so that they're neither burred nor bent when I'm done? You mean these? Ebay: 370204317171 These are for the .049, but this guy claims to have more parts than anyone else. Pete Stanaitis --------------------------- Well, in my case "working on" means "making a new cylinder, piston, rod and head for fun". The originals may fit, but where's the fun in that? Besides -- I just called those folks about parts for a .15; they said "no can do". They just bought out Estes's stock of Cox parts for 1/2 a million $$, there's reported to be an astonishing amount of oddball stuff in there, but either they don't have it inventoried yet or the stuff really isn't there. -- http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#11
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Making thin copper gaskets
"Tim Wescott" wrote in message ... On Sun, 31 May 2009 08:42:24 -0500, spaco wrote: Tim Wescott wrote: I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working on. These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". Hmmm---Glue the copper to a flat surface. I would probably use a piece of Aluminum flatbar, just because I have a lot of small pieces. Little superglue on one surface, make a sandwich and clamp. Do it in the mill as a vertical trepanning operation. I would use a boring head. Grind a very sharp bit and cut the ID of several. Change to an outside bit and do the OD. Should leave a very crisp edge with no burr. Heat, cold, or a razor blade to remove. Have you tried here? $4 for 3 gaskets. https://shop.mecoa.com/shopdisplaypr...catalogid=2486 |
#12
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Making thin copper gaskets
On May 31, 4:42*pm, "Bill Marrs" wrote:
"Tim Wescott" wrote in message ... On Sun, 31 May 2009 08:42:24 -0500, spaco wrote: Tim Wescott wrote: I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working on. *These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". You can't just turn and part them from an annealed brass water pipe nipple? jsw |
#13
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Making thin copper gaskets
On Sun, 31 May 2009 14:03:48 -0700, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On May 31, 4:42Â*pm, "Bill Marrs" wrote: "Tim Wescott" wrote in message ... On Sun, 31 May 2009 08:42:24 -0500, spaco wrote: Tim Wescott wrote: I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working on. Â*These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". You can't just turn and part them from an annealed brass water pipe nipple? jsw No -- we're talking shim stock thicknesses here -- 5, 10 mils at most. The purpose is to adjust the compression of the motor to the particular fuel and propeller used. Since I'm hacking the cylinder and piston out of the solid it's especially important -- I have every faith that I'll get it wrong the first time. -- www.wescottdesign.com |
#14
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Making thin copper gaskets
Tim Wescott wrote: I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox ..09 that I'm working on. These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". Jim Wilkins wrote: You can't just turn and part them from an annealed brass water pipe nipple? jsw No -- we're talking shim stock thicknesses here -- 5, 10 mils at most. The purpose is to adjust the compression of the motor to the particular fuel and propeller used. Since I'm hacking the cylinder and piston out of the solid it's especially important -- I have every faith that I'll get it wrong the first time. I'm on Jim's side on this one. Parting off would give you good control over the thickness even though it may be somewhat wasteful due to the thickness of the parting tool wasting stock. If the coupound is not accurate enough then mount a DTI to set the next cut point. How thin a piece can you cut this way? Try it and find out, you might be surprised . phil |
#15
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Making thin copper gaskets
That seems doable. Buy a stack of brass shims - sheets of brass.
Then select a hole punch of 1/2" and 9/16. These are used on paper, plastic, leather and the like. The trick will be a firm enough backing that allows a punch and won't distort. You can make these - mount them in a drill press and press downward... Grind pipe or tubing and harden if possible - maybe using an additive. Or buy them from Cox for your engine :-) Martin Tim Wescott wrote: I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working on. These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". Any suggestions on cutting them out evenly so that they're neither burred nor bent when I'm done? |
#16
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Making thin copper gaskets
On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:47:33 -0500, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Tim Wescott wrote: I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working on. These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". Any suggestions on cutting them out evenly so that they're neither burred nor bent when I'm done? That seems doable. Buy a stack of brass shims - sheets of brass. Then select a hole punch of 1/2" and 9/16. These are used on paper, plastic, leather and the like. The trick will be a firm enough backing that allows a punch and won't distort. You can make these - mount them in a drill press and press downward... Grind pipe or tubing and harden if possible - maybe using an additive. Or buy them from Cox for your engine :-) Martin "Cox" no longer exists. Estes owned the brand but didn't do anything with it but sell ever less well made and harder to find .049s. They recently sold a whole warehouse full of stuff to a distributor, although it's not clear whether they sold the Cox name to go with it. Besides, I'm making the cylinder, head, rod and piston as a training exercise. So it may not have _exactly_ the same dimensions as the original. (It may not run, either -- I just noticed tonight that I had a pretty serious boo-boo in the port timing. I'm going to finish it off and give it a whirl; I plan on cheering if the engine can turn under it's own power. Then I start working on the next one with an eye to all the lessons I've learned on this one). -- http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#17
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Making thin copper gaskets
On May 31, 8:48*pm, "Phil Kangas" wrote:
Tim Wescott wrote: I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working on. These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". Jim Wilkins wrote: You can't just turn and part them from an annealed brass water pipe nipple? jsw No -- we're talking shim stock thicknesses here -- 5, 10 mils at most. The purpose is to adjust the compression of the motor to the particular fuel and propeller used. *Since I'm hacking the cylinder and piston out of the solid it's especially important -- I have every faith that I'll get it wrong the first time. I'm on Jim's side on this one. Parting off would give you good control over the thickness even though it may be somewhat wasteful due to the thickness of the parting tool wasting stock. If the coupound is not accurate enough *then mount a DTI to set the next cut point. How thin a piece can you cut this way? Try it and find out, you might be surprised . phil- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I ground the back end of my parting tool thin for jobs like this. The end needs to be angled very slightly to cut off the work without a burr, but not enough that the cutting force deflects it sideways. Test it by shaving less than the tool's width off the end of a rod and checking if the cut is flat. jsw |
#18
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Making thin copper gaskets
axolotl wrote:
Tim Wescott wrote: I need to make some head shims/gaskets These need to be of thin copper or brass, Coat thin copper with resist. Scribe outline of gasket with fine point. dump in ferric chloride. Kevin Gallimore I second that idea--toner transfer and photoetch printed circuit methods work for laying the resist pattern. Good for making batches of parts. http://www.starshipmodeler.com/tech/fh_pe.htm http://www.nigellawton009.com/Etchin..._Version_5.htm Instead of etchant you can use CuSO4 or even salt water, a power supply, and electrochemically etch parts. http://steampunkworkshop.com/electroetch.shtml Cheers, James Arthur |
#19
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Making thin copper gaskets
Tim Wescott wrote:
I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working on. These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". Any suggestions on cutting them out evenly so that they're neither burred nor bent when I'm done? Cut your shim stock in 1" squares. Cut more than you'll need in a lifetime. The more the better. Stack them up and sandwich them between 2 pieces of AL about 1/8" thick. Clamp well, drill through the center then bore to the ID. Turn an arbor for your lathe that will just fit inside the ID. Drill and tap a hole in the center of the arbor. Make some sort of end cap that will hold the gaskets and AL snugly on the arbor. Chuck the arbor in your lathe and turn the whole mess down to the OD. It won't take as long as it looks. I've done the whole thing in about 1/2 hour. |
#20
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Making thin copper gaskets
On May 31, 4:17*pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
Besides -- I just called those folks about parts for a .15; they said "no can do". *They just bought out Estes's stock of Cox parts for 1/2 a million $$, there's reported to be an astonishing amount of oddball stuff in there, but either they don't have it inventoried yet or the stuff really isn't there. Typically when Company #2 buys Company #1's parts stock, they do it because Company #2 is very familiar with customers who have a continual and regular need for some subset of the parts stock. If you were an existing customer of Company #2, you'd probably be on good terms with someone in sales there and they would know exactly what you need to buy. If you were not a pre-existing customer of Company #2, you might very well fall outside their usual customer base and they could have a hard time figuring out how to deal with you. Traditional hobby/RC/model stores still do exist and might be able to get you some Cox parts, but a lot of hobbyists have transitioned to online web stores which only know about the really cheap Chinese stuff. Tim. |
#21
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Making thin copper gaskets
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 10:07:56 -0700, Jim Stewart
wrote: Tim Wescott wrote: I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working on. These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". Any suggestions on cutting them out evenly so that they're neither burred nor bent when I'm done? Why not try a car/truck parts shop? A copper seal ring with an I.D. of 1/2 inch ought to be available as they are commonly used on cars and trucks and diesel injection systems. Over here you can go into a shop selling car parts with your part in hand and tell 'em I need a copper ring to fit here. Usually get it too. :-) Cheers, Bruce in Bangkok (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
#22
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Making thin copper gaskets
"Phil Kangas" Tim Wescott wrote: I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working on. These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". Jim Wilkins wrote: You can't just turn and part them from an annealed brass water pipe nipple? jsw No -- we're talking shim stock thicknesses here -- 5, 10 mils at most. The purpose is to adjust the compression of the motor to the particular fuel and propeller used. Since I'm hacking the cylinder and piston out of the solid it's especially important -- I have every faith that I'll get it wrong the first time. I'm on Jim's side on this one. Parting off would give you good control over the thickness even though it may be somewhat wasteful due to the thickness of the parting tool wasting stock. If the coupound is not accurate enough then mount a DTI to set the next cut point. How thin a piece can you cut this way? Try it and find out, you might be surprised . phil Ok, I tried it today on my old SB 9 inch with 932 bronze bushing stock that was handy. Parting tool 0.075 wide. Stock was one inch o.d. w/ a half inch hole. First try got a shim 0.008! On smaller dia. stock it would be a lot easier.....phil |
#23
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Making thin copper gaskets
Tim Wescott wrote: "Cox" no longer exists. Estes owned the brand but didn't do anything with it but sell ever less well made and harder to find .049s. They recently sold a whole warehouse full of stuff to a distributor, although it's not clear whether they sold the Cox name to go with it. Besides, I'm making the cylinder, head, rod and piston as a training exercise. So it may not have _exactly_ the same dimensions as the original. (It may not run, either -- I just noticed tonight that I had a pretty serious boo-boo in the port timing. I'm going to finish it off and give it a whirl; I plan on cheering if the engine can turn under it's own power. Then I start working on the next one with an eye to all the lessons I've learned on this one). Tim, can you get copper foil with an adhesive back in the right thickness? If so, a few seconds with an Exacto knife would trim a piece in place. The foil we used in manufacturing was fairly thin, and stood up to a hot soldering iron. -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! |
#24
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Making thin copper gaskets
Understand Tim.
I'm building - slowly - a bench top size IC engine - a 6-cycle unit. It is a scale unit and I have to make everything myself also. Making rings is going to be interesting. Martin Tim Wescott wrote: On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:47:33 -0500, Martin H. Eastburn wrote: Tim Wescott wrote: I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working on. These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". Any suggestions on cutting them out evenly so that they're neither burred nor bent when I'm done? That seems doable. Buy a stack of brass shims - sheets of brass. Then select a hole punch of 1/2" and 9/16. These are used on paper, plastic, leather and the like. The trick will be a firm enough backing that allows a punch and won't distort. You can make these - mount them in a drill press and press downward... Grind pipe or tubing and harden if possible - maybe using an additive. Or buy them from Cox for your engine :-) Martin "Cox" no longer exists. Estes owned the brand but didn't do anything with it but sell ever less well made and harder to find .049s. They recently sold a whole warehouse full of stuff to a distributor, although it's not clear whether they sold the Cox name to go with it. Besides, I'm making the cylinder, head, rod and piston as a training exercise. So it may not have _exactly_ the same dimensions as the original. (It may not run, either -- I just noticed tonight that I had a pretty serious boo-boo in the port timing. I'm going to finish it off and give it a whirl; I plan on cheering if the engine can turn under it's own power. Then I start working on the next one with an eye to all the lessons I've learned on this one). |
#25
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Making thin copper gaskets
"Tim Wescott" wrote in message ... | On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:47:33 -0500, Martin H. Eastburn wrote: | | Tim Wescott wrote: | I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working | on. These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of | about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". | | Any suggestions on cutting them out evenly so that they're neither | burred nor bent when I'm done? | | That seems doable. Buy a stack of brass shims - sheets of brass. | | Then select a hole punch of 1/2" and 9/16. These are used on paper, | plastic, leather and the like. The trick will be a firm enough backing | that allows a punch and won't distort. | | You can make these - mount them in a drill press and press downward... | | Grind pipe or tubing and harden if possible - maybe using an additive. | | Or buy them from Cox for your engine :-) Martin | | "Cox" no longer exists. Estes owned the brand but didn't do anything | with it but sell ever less well made and harder to find .049s. They | recently sold a whole warehouse full of stuff to a distributor, although | it's not clear whether they sold the Cox name to go with it. | | Besides, I'm making the cylinder, head, rod and piston as a training | exercise. So it may not have _exactly_ the same dimensions as the | original. (It may not run, either -- I just noticed tonight that I had a | pretty serious boo-boo in the port timing. I'm going to finish it off | and give it a whirl; I plan on cheering if the engine can turn under | it's own power. Then I start working on the next one with an eye to all | the lessons I've learned on this one). | | -- | http://www.wescottdesign.com Here's one made of brass with the correct ID but larger OD. Each sheet is ..002" thick. Just trim the OD as necessary for your needs. http://www.mcmaster.com/#shim-stock/=27hiyu |
#26
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Making thin copper gaskets
"R T Smith" wrote in message ... | | | | "Tim Wescott" wrote in message | ... || On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:47:33 -0500, Martin H. Eastburn wrote: || || Tim Wescott wrote: || I need to make some head shims/gaskets for a Cox .09 that I'm working || on. These need to be of thin copper or brass, round, with an OD of || about 9/16" and an ID of about 1/2". || || Any suggestions on cutting them out evenly so that they're neither || burred nor bent when I'm done? || || That seems doable. Buy a stack of brass shims - sheets of brass. || || Then select a hole punch of 1/2" and 9/16. These are used on paper, || plastic, leather and the like. The trick will be a firm enough backing || that allows a punch and won't distort. || || You can make these - mount them in a drill press and press downward... || || Grind pipe or tubing and harden if possible - maybe using an additive. || || Or buy them from Cox for your engine :-) Martin || || "Cox" no longer exists. Estes owned the brand but didn't do anything || with it but sell ever less well made and harder to find .049s. They || recently sold a whole warehouse full of stuff to a distributor, although || it's not clear whether they sold the Cox name to go with it. || || Besides, I'm making the cylinder, head, rod and piston as a training || exercise. So it may not have _exactly_ the same dimensions as the || original. (It may not run, either -- I just noticed tonight that I had a || pretty serious boo-boo in the port timing. I'm going to finish it off || and give it a whirl; I plan on cheering if the engine can turn under || it's own power. Then I start working on the next one with an eye to all || the lessons I've learned on this one). || || -- || http://www.wescottdesign.com | | Here's one made of brass with the correct ID but larger OD. Each sheet is | .002" thick. | Just trim the OD as necessary for your needs. | | http://www.mcmaster.com/#shim-stock/=27hiyu | Or these : http://www.mcmaster.com/#shim-stock/=27hnpy |
#27
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Making thin copper gaskets
On Jun 3, 5:51*pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: Tim Wescott wrote: ... * *Tim, can you get copper foil with an adhesive back in the right thickness? *If so, a few seconds with an Exacto knife would trim a piece in place. *The foil we used in manufacturing was fairly thin, and stood up to a hot soldering iron. The copper tape for repairing circuit boards is easy to cut into complex shapes with a razor knife. I've tuned the matching stubs on stripline circuits with it; cut off a sliver, check it on the network analyzer, the engineer recalculates the dimensions, etc, over and over until he gives up. The copper does NOT come off Duroid easily. For gasket shapes you can carefully trace around the housing with the knife. It's easier when the housing is steel but I recently cut a Kynar film to match an ABS form without gouging it. I think you could turn a lathe fixture that would clamp the sheet between two plugs to cut the OD, then a hollowed piston and a cylinder with a narrow internal ridge at the end to clamp the gasket disk while you trim the ID against the hole in the piston. jsw |
#28
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Making thin copper gaskets
Jim Wilkins wrote: On Jun 3, 5:51 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Tim Wescott wrote: ... Tim, can you get copper foil with an adhesive back in the right thickness? If so, a few seconds with an Exacto knife would trim a piece in place. The foil we used in manufacturing was fairly thin, and stood up to a hot soldering iron. The copper tape for repairing circuit boards is easy to cut into complex shapes with a razor knife. I've tuned the matching stubs on stripline circuits with it; cut off a sliver, check it on the network analyzer, the engineer recalculates the dimensions, etc, over and over until he gives up. The copper does NOT come off Duroid easily. I had to align our ultra low phase noise synthesizers at Microdyne. They bought some plated brass strip stock for the job, but I preferred the scrap carrier strip from the smaller AMP & Berg terminals, from the crimping machines. I used a sharp pair of scissors to trim the tails left by the terminals. I would tin the ground trace & end of the inductor of the 510 MHZ VCO, and both ends of the strip. I would take an initial frequency measurement, then solder the strip to the pair of traces, to shorten the inductor. After a while, I was within specs the first try. Since the adjustment was made at the cold end of the inductor, a pair of hot Edsyn 'Loner' soldering irons let me retune the board without powering down. We used several types of self adhesive copper tape to make sure the machined RF housings had a good RF tight seal. Some was applied to the face of one part, and trilled around the edges with an Exacto, and others went over the outside off the seams, after everything was together. of course, to get the width you needed meant something almost twice the width, so over half a roll was scrap. For gasket shapes you can carefully trace around the housing with the knife. It's easier when the housing is steel but I recently cut a Kynar film to match an ABS form without gouging it. I think you could turn a lathe fixture that would clamp the sheet between two plugs to cut the OD, then a hollowed piston and a cylinder with a narrow internal ridge at the end to clamp the gasket disk while you trim the ID against the hole in the piston. That's a lot simpler than making a custom set of punches. -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! |
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