Hey, it's on topic - lots of metal in long squiggly bits, and it's going
to my shop...

I'm throwing 300 amp service (one phase, all there is out in the woods)
at my new shop building, having finally gotten past various hurdles that
caused me to think for a long time I was going to have to make it be
off-grid. Eventually 100 amps will come off that to the eventual house,
if that ever eventually happens.

It's about 335 feet of run, plus running from the pole-mount transformer
to down in the ground, and back up to the meter at the far end. It's on
the cusp of 400 or 500 MCM copper, and I'm probably just going 500 to be
sure. Can't run primary underground per the power company rules (I
can't. They can, but they won't, or they price it so high that I won't,
comes to the same thing in the end). Something like 370-390 feet of wire.

Conduit figures to 3" min, I'm thinking 4" - not only more room, but
possibly one of those bigger is not more expensive (might even be
cheaper?) if it's the more common size things - don't know for sure.
Yes, I'll be dropping in some spares while I have the hole open. Well,
at least some extras - the price I'm being estimated on the large
conduit (PVC) seems high - $5/foot? The 4" plumbing stuff is only about
$2/foot last I recall, and while I expect electrical to cost a bit more,
more than double seems high. That may preclude a spare for the big
stuff. At least one empty smaller run as well as the phone line run.

Anyway, while I'm pondering prices, does $5.67/foot sound like a
reasonable price for 500 MCM copper when buying 1100-1200 feet (370-390
X3)? My electrician has been saying his suppliers have cut prices
drastically with the slowdown in building and/or China (depending what
you think drives copper prices more), but only got to specifics once the
run length was nailed down.

I've saved Bruce's previous advice about getting copper bus bars in the
breaker box and making sure it's industrial interchange, rather than
some oddball custom breakers. What other advice have I forgotten, before
it's too late? I don't know that an air line in the trench makes a lot
of sense, as the trench terminates halfway up the driveway. I should be
able to tie the ground network into a 100 foot well casing. Should I run
a ground all around the outside of the building, and if so, is #4
adequate for that? Too late for a Ufer on this building.

I do have a licensed electrician working on this, but I value a second
opinion...it's a big chunk of the building fund on one aspect.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Ecnerwal wrote:
Hey, it's on topic - lots of metal in long squiggly bits, and it's going
to my shop...

I'm throwing 300 amp service (one phase, all there is out in the woods)
at my new shop building, having finally gotten past various hurdles that
caused me to think for a long time I was going to have to make it be
off-grid. Eventually 100 amps will come off that to the eventual house,
if that ever eventually happens.

It's about 335 feet of run, plus running from the pole-mount transformer
to down in the ground, and back up to the meter at the far end. It's on
the cusp of 400 or 500 MCM copper, and I'm probably just going 500 to be
sure. Can't run primary underground per the power company rules (I
can't. They can, but they won't, or they price it so high that I won't,
comes to the same thing in the end). Something like 370-390 feet of wire.

Conduit figures to 3" min, I'm thinking 4" - not only more room, but
possibly one of those bigger is not more expensive (might even be
cheaper?) if it's the more common size things - don't know for sure.
Yes, I'll be dropping in some spares while I have the hole open. Well,
at least some extras - the price I'm being estimated on the large
conduit (PVC) seems high - $5/foot? The 4" plumbing stuff is only about
$2/foot last I recall, and while I expect electrical to cost a bit more,
more than double seems high. That may preclude a spare for the big
stuff. At least one empty smaller run as well as the phone line run.

Anyway, while I'm pondering prices, does $5.67/foot sound like a
reasonable price for 500 MCM copper when buying 1100-1200 feet (370-390
X3)? My electrician has been saying his suppliers have cut prices
drastically with the slowdown in building and/or China (depending what
you think drives copper prices more), but only got to specifics once the
run length was nailed down.

I've saved Bruce's previous advice about getting copper bus bars in the
breaker box and making sure it's industrial interchange, rather than
some oddball custom breakers. What other advice have I forgotten, before
it's too late? I don't know that an air line in the trench makes a lot
of sense, as the trench terminates halfway up the driveway. I should be
able to tie the ground network into a 100 foot well casing. Should I run
a ground all around the outside of the building, and if so, is #4
adequate for that? Too late for a Ufer on this building.

I do have a licensed electrician working on this, but I value a second
opinion...it's a big chunk of the building fund on one aspect.

Leave an extra pull cord in the conduit if
you can. It will probably be all rotten
and tangled if you need it, but who knows..

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Ecnerwal wrote:
Hey, it's on topic - lots of metal in long squiggly bits, and it's going
to my shop...

I'm throwing 300 amp service (one phase, all there is out in the woods)
at my new shop building, having finally gotten past various hurdles that
caused me to think for a long time I was going to have to make it be
off-grid. Eventually 100 amps will come off that to the eventual house,
if that ever eventually happens.

It's about 335 feet of run, plus running from the pole-mount transformer
to down in the ground, and back up to the meter at the far end. It's on
the cusp of 400 or 500 MCM copper, and I'm probably just going 500 to be
sure. Can't run primary underground per the power company rules (I can't.
They can, but they won't, or they price it so high that I won't, comes to
the same thing in the end). Something like 370-390 feet of wire.

Conduit figures to 3" min, I'm thinking 4" - not only more room, but
possibly one of those bigger is not more expensive (might even be
cheaper?) if it's the more common size things - don't know for sure. Yes,
I'll be dropping in some spares while I have the hole open. Well, at
least some extras - the price I'm being estimated on the large conduit
(PVC) seems high - $5/foot? The 4" plumbing stuff is only about $2/foot
last I recall, and while I expect electrical to cost a bit more, more
than double seems high. That may preclude a spare for the big stuff. At
least one empty smaller run as well as the phone line run.

Anyway, while I'm pondering prices, does $5.67/foot sound like a
reasonable price for 500 MCM copper when buying 1100-1200 feet (370-390
X3)? My electrician has been saying his suppliers have cut prices
drastically with the slowdown in building and/or China (depending what
you think drives copper prices more), but only got to specifics once the
run length was nailed down.

I've saved Bruce's previous advice about getting copper bus bars in the
breaker box and making sure it's industrial interchange, rather than some
oddball custom breakers. What other advice have I forgotten, before it's
too late? I don't know that an air line in the trench makes a lot of
sense, as the trench terminates halfway up the driveway. I should be able
to tie the ground network into a 100 foot well casing. Should I run a
ground all around the outside of the building, and if so, is #4 adequate
for that? Too late for a Ufer on this building.
I do have a licensed electrician working on this, but I value a second
opinion...it's a big chunk of the building fund on one aspect.

Leave an extra pull cord in the conduit if
you can. It will probably be all rotten
and tangled if you need it, but who knows..

I'm sure you've done your homework and checked with the local power company,
but I have to mention this. In _most_ areas, the customer provides the
trench and conduit and the power company provides the conductors from the
transformer to the meter.

In article ,
"# 42" wrote:

I'm sure you've done your homework and checked with the local power company,
but I have to mention this. In _most_ areas, the customer provides the
trench and conduit and the power company provides the conductors from the
transformer to the meter.

Chuckle. Vermont is evidently very much not "most areas" as far as power
goes, in many, many ways. If I had overhead to the building the power
company would supply (and charge me for it), for underground it's all
me. Naturally they would not connect if they found it lacking, but they
want nothing to do with it.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Use a Nylon line - small rope so you can drag what you want.
A good string of nylon will pull in a rope to pull in what not.

My 2-phase high voltage lines are just over 1000'. I have 7 poles.
Two drops (was three). I have a pole beyond my house drop. That pole
has two old junker transformers from the power company - an output winding
was bad or such - it is to absorb spikes made from the main line.

I have two meters - two transforms - one for the shop and one for the house.

Each place has 220 split like is normal. The shop has my build 3 phase services
as well.

Martin

Jim Stewart wrote:
Ecnerwal wrote:
Hey, it's on topic - lots of metal in long squiggly bits, and it's
going to my shop...

I'm throwing 300 amp service (one phase, all there is out in the
woods) at my new shop building, having finally gotten past various
hurdles that caused me to think for a long time I was going to have to
make it be off-grid. Eventually 100 amps will come off that to the
eventual house, if that ever eventually happens.

It's about 335 feet of run, plus running from the pole-mount
transformer to down in the ground, and back up to the meter at the far
end. It's on the cusp of 400 or 500 MCM copper, and I'm probably just
going 500 to be sure. Can't run primary underground per the power
company rules (I can't. They can, but they won't, or they price it so
high that I won't, comes to the same thing in the end). Something like
370-390 feet of wire.

Conduit figures to 3" min, I'm thinking 4" - not only more room, but
possibly one of those bigger is not more expensive (might even be
cheaper?) if it's the more common size things - don't know for sure.
Yes, I'll be dropping in some spares while I have the hole open. Well,
at least some extras - the price I'm being estimated on the large
conduit (PVC) seems high - $5/foot? The 4" plumbing stuff is only
about $2/foot last I recall, and while I expect electrical to cost a
bit more, more than double seems high. That may preclude a spare for
the big stuff. At least one empty smaller run as well as the phone
line run.

Anyway, while I'm pondering prices, does $5.67/foot sound like a
reasonable price for 500 MCM copper when buying 1100-1200 feet
(370-390 X3)? My electrician has been saying his suppliers have cut
prices drastically with the slowdown in building and/or China
(depending what you think drives copper prices more), but only got to
specifics once the run length was nailed down.

I've saved Bruce's previous advice about getting copper bus bars in
the breaker box and making sure it's industrial interchange, rather
than some oddball custom breakers. What other advice have I forgotten,
before it's too late? I don't know that an air line in the trench
makes a lot of sense, as the trench terminates halfway up the
driveway. I should be able to tie the ground network into a 100 foot
well casing. Should I run a ground all around the outside of the
building, and if so, is #4 adequate for that? Too late for a Ufer on
this building.

I do have a licensed electrician working on this, but I value a second
opinion...it's a big chunk of the building fund on one aspect.

Leave an extra pull cord in the conduit if
you can. It will probably be all rotten
and tangled if you need it, but who knows..

Jim Stewart wrote:

Ecnerwal wrote:
Hey, it's on topic - lots of metal in long squiggly bits, and it's
going to my shop...

I'm throwing 300 amp service (one phase, all there is out in the
woods) at my new shop building, having finally gotten past various
hurdles that caused me to think for a long time I was going to have to
make it be off-grid. Eventually 100 amps will come off that to the
eventual house, if that ever eventually happens.

It's about 335 feet of run, plus running from the pole-mount
transformer to down in the ground, and back up to the meter at the far
end. It's on the cusp of 400 or 500 MCM copper, and I'm probably just
going 500 to be sure. Can't run primary underground per the power
company rules (I can't. They can, but they won't, or they price it so
high that I won't, comes to the same thing in the end). Something like
370-390 feet of wire.

Conduit figures to 3" min, I'm thinking 4" - not only more room, but
possibly one of those bigger is not more expensive (might even be
cheaper?) if it's the more common size things - don't know for sure.
Yes, I'll be dropping in some spares while I have the hole open. Well,
at least some extras - the price I'm being estimated on the large
conduit (PVC) seems high - $5/foot? The 4" plumbing stuff is only
about $2/foot last I recall, and while I expect electrical to cost a
bit more, more than double seems high. That may preclude a spare for
the big stuff. At least one empty smaller run as well as the phone
line run.

Anyway, while I'm pondering prices, does $5.67/foot sound like a
reasonable price for 500 MCM copper when buying 1100-1200 feet
(370-390 X3)? My electrician has been saying his suppliers have cut
prices drastically with the slowdown in building and/or China
(depending what you think drives copper prices more), but only got to
specifics once the run length was nailed down.

I've saved Bruce's previous advice about getting copper bus bars in
the breaker box and making sure it's industrial interchange, rather
than some oddball custom breakers. What other advice have I forgotten,
before it's too late? I don't know that an air line in the trench
makes a lot of sense, as the trench terminates halfway up the
driveway. I should be able to tie the ground network into a 100 foot
well casing. Should I run a ground all around the outside of the
building, and if so, is #4 adequate for that? Too late for a Ufer on
this building.

I do have a licensed electrician working on this, but I value a second
opinion...it's a big chunk of the building fund on one aspect.

Leave an extra pull cord in the conduit if
you can. It will probably be all rotten
and tangled if you need it, but who knows..


Better yet, drop an additional conduit or pipe into the trench when it's
open - maybe not as big as the 4" for power, but you never know when you
may need an extra duct to the outside world. Cheapest to do it when the
excavation is already done.

Carla
If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was probably
worth it.

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:42:51 -0400, Ecnerwal
wrote:

In article ,
"# 42" wrote:

I'm sure you've done your homework and checked with the local power company,
but I have to mention this. In _most_ areas, the customer provides the
trench and conduit and the power company provides the conductors from the
transformer to the meter.

Chuckle. Vermont is evidently very much not "most areas" as far as power
goes, in many, many ways. If I had overhead to the building the power
company would supply (and charge me for it), for underground it's all
me. Naturally they would not connect if they found it lacking, but they
want nothing to do with it.

Who really cares if they "find it lacking", put in wet string and
let them energize it - if it's before the meter and the underground
feeder shorts out, you don't pay for the electricity... ;-P

The service wires are the one area where it's acceptable to use
aluminum wire if you oversize it properly to counter voltage drop.
This is where that 4" PVC conduit to the pole starts looking like a
smart investment, because it fills up FAST when you bump up two sizes.

In "Civilized" areas where the utility provides the feeder cables
they use aluminum wire almost exclusively, but they would be
UNDERsizing it severely. Where the Book says to use #2 CU they use #4
AL and call it "plenty big".

And remember you can run two conductors in parallel in the conduit
for each phase. Sizes are pulled out of my ass, but if you can get a
full reel of 2/0 AL (to double up) cheaper than a half reel of 250MCM
or 400MCM AL to run a 325A continuous "California 400" service, do it
that way.

If they sell enough of the small wire, it creates a price advantage.
-- Bruce --

Bruce L. Bergman writes:


And remember you can run two conductors in parallel in the conduit
for each phase.

Rough rule of thumb is "3"....

Two parallel 12's ~= 9 gauge

Two #10's ~= 7 etc...



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