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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Holman Jenkins continues making his case against CAFE and other root
causes of the Big Three's inability to make profitable cars in Detroit. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123069003507444659.html The Wall Street Journal, 31 December 2008. Joe Gwinn |
#2
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![]() "Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message ... Holman Jenkins continues making his case against CAFE and other root causes of the Big Three's inability to make profitable cars in Detroit. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123069003507444659.html The CAFE law is definitely wrong-headed. Gasoline taxes as Ed has described are the way to go but will probably never happen. If they're going to keep the CAFE law, allowing the foreign manufacturers to skirt it by paying relatively small fines should be stopped. |
#3
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On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:05:16 -0500, the infamous Joseph Gwinn
scrawled the following: Holman Jenkins continues making his case against CAFE and other root causes of the Big Three's inability to make profitable cars in Detroit. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123069003507444659.html When I bought my truck last year, I drove both the 5.7 and 4.7L versions. I'd never read anything about the little V-6 and there were none on the lot, so I didn't have a chance to check that out. I bought the 4.7 because it had well more than enough power to move itself out of the way of trouble when needed, and plenty for hauling around the sub-1-ton loads I carry. When gas was $4/gal, I wished they'd offered a 4-cyl version. Coupled to the very efficient 5-speed auto trans, it would probably have had enough power for most of my driving needs. P.S: I'd like to meet Janna Dake. She looks interesting. The Wall Street Journal, 31 December 2008. I read his article on (Dec 17, "Put Madoff In Charge of Social Security") last week and really like the guy. ------ We're born hungry, wet, 'n naked, and it gets worse from there. |
#4
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CAFE laws have killed thousands of people. Think of it that way.
Light cars don't survive. But the 5 MPH or less bumper made of plastic the plastic radiator, the fold into nothing front destroys a very very expensive car and protects about the same with a real front end and airbags. Insurance rates are way up due to CAFE and just what else - not pay scales. Martin ATP* wrote: "Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message ... Holman Jenkins continues making his case against CAFE and other root causes of the Big Three's inability to make profitable cars in Detroit. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123069003507444659.html The CAFE law is definitely wrong-headed. Gasoline taxes as Ed has described are the way to go but will probably never happen. If they're going to keep the CAFE law, allowing the foreign manufacturers to skirt it by paying relatively small fines should be stopped. |
#5
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On Dec 31 2008, 10:05*am, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
Holman Jenkins continues making his case against CAFE and other root causes of the Big Three's inability to make profitable cars in Detroit. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123069003507444659.html The Wall Street Journal, 31 December 2008. Joe Gwinn CAFE is a good example of a supposed good idea gone bad. Since the actual cost to drive a large, low mileage vehicle for errands to the market with one passenger etc. was low, people naturally wanted bigger vehicle. The auto companies saw the demand for heavy, large, fast vehicles and just responded with truck size SUV's and marketing of trucks to people for daily driving. When gas went high and raised the real cost of moving a 3 ton vehicle around for no good reason, many began to think a 3 ton SUV was not a such a great idea. The lesson from this is, if you want to limit fuel use, tax the fuel, don't impose contrived mandatory fuel standards. In Europe fuel consumption has dropped 20%, while at the same time in the US fuel consumption has increased since CAFE was mandated. When fuel costs 4-8 dollars a gallon you don't use as much. You can't "mandate" a 3 ton vehicle to get 35 mpg. Of course in Europe Diesel is not a dirty word, and since diesels are ~ 30% more efficient and 50% of the cars are diesel, that helped a lot. Meanwhile are roads and bridges are falling apart, and states are selling off to the highest bidder the toll roads for short term gains to make ends meet. TAX the fuel, but PUT the TAX back into the roads, not pet projects. May as well ditch the 55mph speed limit at the same time, it was about as useful as CAFE. |
#6
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On Dec 31 2008, 11:56*am, Larry Jaques
wrote: When gas was $4/gal, I wished they'd offered a 4-cyl [truck]. Coupled to the very efficient 5-speed auto trans, it would probably have had enough power for most of my driving needs. I have a 1991 Ranger with the 2.3L 4, 5-speed MT, 7' bed and 4WD. I got $4000 off + dealer A/C because it had been on the lot for six months and the new ones were due out -- no one else wanted it. Ford discontinued that combination soon afterwards. It has enough power empty around town, in fact it will burn rubber off a stop light. The 4.11 rear axle helps. On the Interstate it's barely adequate for light, fast traffic and hills. It can reach 80 but 70 is the max practical cruising speed. Removing the tailgate made no difference, leaves and snow showed that the wind in the bed moves forward in the vortex behind the cab. It was fine for my commute in heavy, slow traffic on flat roads in MA. It could get 28 - 29 MPG at 55MPH on a long trip in the summer, around 20 - 22 commuting in winter. I don't trust it far from home any more and haven't checked the mileage carefully with an ethanol blend, but I think it's 26 or less. A full half ton of iron in the bed doesn't bother the truck much although its tilted headlights bother the driver ahead. I drive slowly and carefully then anyway in case the load shifts. It has a crane like Iggy's and handily placed bed bolts to attach the baseplate to the frame. Jim Wilkins |
#7
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On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:57:26 -0800 (PST), oldjag
wrote: snip Holman Jenkins continues making his case against CAFE and other root causes of the Big Three's inability to make profitable cars in Detroit. snip -------------- Its a shame these laws only apply to Detroit and not all car producers in the US....[not] :- Jenkins continues to make excuses for Detroit. The root problems are that their cars were/are crap, the vendors have been beaten into the ground, labor relations are very bad, and senior management remains in total denial. |
#8
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![]() "F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:57:26 -0800 (PST), oldjag wrote: snip Holman Jenkins continues making his case against CAFE and other root causes of the Big Three's inability to make profitable cars in Detroit. snip -------------- Its a shame these laws only apply to Detroit and not all car producers in the US....[not] :- The *do* apply to all car producers in the US, and to importers, too. They all have to comply with CAFE or pay a fine. Detroit got around it by lobbying for a lower standard for light trucks, which they got. Then they started making a lot of light trucks and created the SUV. The light-truck/SUV market went from 18% of their sales in 1980 to 51% early last year. Most of the importers and foreign builders in the US make enough small cars that they have no trouble meeting the CAFE standards. BMW is an exception (and Benz, too, I think), but they have no trouble paying the fine and adding it to the price of the car. That's what happens when you build good cars and don't destroy your own reputation. -- Ed Huntress |
#9
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"Ed Huntress" wrote:
The *do* apply to all car producers in the US, and to importers, too. They all have to comply with CAFE or pay a fine. But that fine is fairly small if the linked article in op is accurate. If it was me bulding cars, I'd just post the cafe fine on the sticker and let the customers know how much choice cost them. Free markets work if you trust them. I abandoned my old truck at 1.699 a gallon. Going from a 15 mile commute to a 70 mile one had somethign to do with that. Wes |
#10
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![]() "Wes" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: The *do* apply to all car producers in the US, and to importers, too. They all have to comply with CAFE or pay a fine. But that fine is fairly small if the linked article in op is accurate. If it was me bulding cars, I'd just post the cafe fine on the sticker and let the customers know how much choice cost them. Free markets work if you trust them. I abandoned my old truck at 1.699 a gallon. Going from a 15 mile commute to a 70 mile one had somethign to do with that. Sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. And sometimes it depends on what you mean by "work." -- Ed Huntress |
#11
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On Jan 3, 3:47*am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Wes" wrote in message "Ed Huntress" wrote: Free markets work if you trust them. *I abandoned my old truck at 1.699 a gallon. *Going from a 15 mile commute to a 70 mile one had somethign to do with that. Sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. And sometimes it depends on what you mean by "work." Ed Huntress Despite all the noise -very- few people actually buy the high-mpg vehicles that have been offered. http://www.hybridcars.com/forums/198...ivic-t208.html I never saw a Civic FE outside the showroom. jw |
#12
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Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Jan 3, 3:47 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Wes" wrote in message "Ed Huntress" wrote: Free markets work if you trust them. I abandoned my old truck at 1.699 a gallon. Going from a 15 mile commute to a 70 mile one had somethign to do with that. Sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. And sometimes it depends on what you mean by "work." Ed Huntress Despite all the noise -very- few people actually buy the high-mpg vehicles that have been offered. http://www.hybridcars.com/forums/198...ivic-t208.html I never saw a Civic FE outside the showroom. So, I'm guessing you live in Montana or some other red-meat and republicans only enclave. In mid-west Cincinnati, the mall and supermarket lots have a very reasonable percentage of Prius and Civics, I see many Toyota Matrix/Vibe, and other well made vehicles with excellent mileage Almost all are American made, Japanese designed cars. A few months ago, I looked at a PT cruiser, almost the same interior size as a Matrix, but about 10 MPG less. What is Detroit's trouble? That is Detroits trouble. And I find the arguments that the cost of a hybrid means they are un-viable is spurious at best. I never saw a reasonability test of buying an Escalade instead of a Malibu. Stuart |
#13
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![]() "Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... On Jan 3, 3:47 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Wes" wrote in message "Ed Huntress" wrote: Free markets work if you trust them. I abandoned my old truck at 1.699 a gallon. Going from a 15 mile commute to a 70 mile one had somethign to do with that. Sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. And sometimes it depends on what you mean by "work." Ed Huntress Despite all the noise -very- few people actually buy the high-mpg vehicles that have been offered. http://www.hybridcars.com/forums/198...ivic-t208.html I never saw a Civic FE outside the showroom. Well, in 1982, the idea was still pretty alien to people away from the coasts. On the other hand, until the recent slowdown, Toyota couldn't keep Prius's in stock, the demand was so high. Even in 2008, Toyota sold over 200,000 hybrids in the US through November: http://www.electricdrive.org/index.p...icles&topics=7 -- Ed Huntress |
#14
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On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 09:34:37 -0500, Stuart Wheaton
wrote: Ed Huntress Despite all the noise -very- few people actually buy the high-mpg vehicles that have been offered. http://www.hybridcars.com/forums/198...ivic-t208.html I never saw a Civic FE outside the showroom. So, I'm guessing you live in Montana or some other red-meat and republicans only enclave. In mid-west Cincinnati, the mall and supermarket lots have a very reasonable percentage of Prius and Civics, I see many Toyota Matrix/Vibe, and other well made vehicles with excellent mileage Almost all are American made, Japanese designed cars. A few months ago, I looked at a PT cruiser, almost the same interior size as a Matrix, but about 10 MPG less. What is Detroit's trouble? That is Detroits trouble. And I find the arguments that the cost of a hybrid means they are un-viable is spurious at best. I never saw a reasonability test of buying an Escalade instead of a Malibu. Stuart Son...in urban ********s, you are unlikly to get those high mileage numbers because you never drive very far. Gunner "Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every quality that morons esteem in their heroes."" |
#15
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"Ed Huntress" wrote:
Well, in 1982, the idea was still pretty alien to people away from the coasts. On the other hand, until the recent slowdown, Toyota couldn't keep Prius's in stock, the demand was so high. Even in 2008, Toyota sold over 200,000 hybrids in the US through November: When their batteries crap out a few years down the road and they get the price tag on a new set, do you think they will be repeat buyers of hybrids? Cost differntial on a hybrid vs a IC only compact car doesn't make economic sense. I doubt anyone has saved any money with a hybrid on a life cycle cost basis. Wes |
#16
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![]() "Wes" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: Well, in 1982, the idea was still pretty alien to people away from the coasts. On the other hand, until the recent slowdown, Toyota couldn't keep Prius's in stock, the demand was so high. Even in 2008, Toyota sold over 200,000 hybrids in the US through November: When their batteries crap out a few years down the road and they get the price tag on a new set, do you think they will be repeat buyers of hybrids? The guys that had EV1's begged to be allowed to buy them. The answer to your question is "Yes". JC |
#17
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![]() "Wes" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: Well, in 1982, the idea was still pretty alien to people away from the coasts. On the other hand, until the recent slowdown, Toyota couldn't keep Prius's in stock, the demand was so high. Even in 2008, Toyota sold over 200,000 hybrids in the US through November: When their batteries crap out a few years down the road and they get the price tag on a new set, do you think they will be repeat buyers of hybrids? Did you check before questioning what the "price tag" is? You ought to do so. Look up their warranty and your question will be answered. You might also want to check out Toyota's post-warranty battery replacements (I'll give you this one: it's 1 out of every 40,000 Priuses sold since 2001). Cost differntial on a hybrid vs a IC only compact car doesn't make economic sense. I doubt anyone has saved any money with a hybrid on a life cycle cost basis. Wes Again, check your facts. The miles one has to drive to recover the costs are pretty well established. Somebody on the Web even has a calculator that allows you to plug in gasoline costs, but I couldn't find it today. -- Ed Huntress |
#18
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![]() "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Wes" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: Well, in 1982, the idea was still pretty alien to people away from the coasts. On the other hand, until the recent slowdown, Toyota couldn't keep Prius's in stock, the demand was so high. Even in 2008, Toyota sold over 200,000 hybrids in the US through November: When their batteries crap out a few years down the road and they get the price tag on a new set, do you think they will be repeat buyers of hybrids? Did you check before questioning what the "price tag" is? You ought to do so. Look up their warranty and your question will be answered. You might also want to check out Toyota's post-warranty battery replacements (I'll give you this one: it's 1 out of every 40,000 Priuses sold since 2001). Cost differntial on a hybrid vs a IC only compact car doesn't make economic sense. I doubt anyone has saved any money with a hybrid on a life cycle cost basis. Wes Again, check your facts. The miles one has to drive to recover the costs are pretty well established. Somebody on the Web even has a calculator that allows you to plug in gasoline costs, but I couldn't find it today. The good thing here is that Wes will. I hope the rest of our country looks like him. Buffaloed maybe, stupid - no. JC |
#19
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"John R. Carroll" wrote:
When their batteries crap out a few years down the road and they get the price tag on a new set, do you think they will be repeat buyers of hybrids? The guys that had EV1's begged to be allowed to buy them. The answer to your question is "Yes". And GM thinking about the lifecycle costs they would have to deal with said no. I remember water jetting the belly pans for those things. We made them out of srim. Another project we spend way too much time and money on with no pay off. Wes PS don't do a clear all yes on a Fanuc RJ control, not the same as on a RH. OOPS! |
#20
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![]() "John R. Carroll" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Wes" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: Well, in 1982, the idea was still pretty alien to people away from the coasts. On the other hand, until the recent slowdown, Toyota couldn't keep Prius's in stock, the demand was so high. Even in 2008, Toyota sold over 200,000 hybrids in the US through November: When their batteries crap out a few years down the road and they get the price tag on a new set, do you think they will be repeat buyers of hybrids? Did you check before questioning what the "price tag" is? You ought to do so. Look up their warranty and your question will be answered. You might also want to check out Toyota's post-warranty battery replacements (I'll give you this one: it's 1 out of every 40,000 Priuses sold since 2001). Cost differntial on a hybrid vs a IC only compact car doesn't make economic sense. I doubt anyone has saved any money with a hybrid on a life cycle cost basis. Wes Again, check your facts. The miles one has to drive to recover the costs are pretty well established. Somebody on the Web even has a calculator that allows you to plug in gasoline costs, but I couldn't find it today. The good thing here is that Wes will. I hope the rest of our country looks like him. Buffaloed maybe, stupid - no. I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't think he'd actually do it. That wasn't a brush-off. Most people won't, though. They'd rather be angry and ignorant. -- Ed Huntress |
#21
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"Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Wes" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: Well, in 1982, the idea was still pretty alien to people away from the coasts. On the other hand, until the recent slowdown, Toyota couldn't keep Prius's in stock, the demand was so high. Even in 2008, Toyota sold over 200,000 hybrids in the US through November: When their batteries crap out a few years down the road and they get the price tag on a new set, do you think they will be repeat buyers of hybrids? Did you check before questioning what the "price tag" is? You ought to do so. Look up their warranty and your question will be answered. The last time I looked it was in the 4-6 grand territory. That buys a lot of gasoline. You might also want to check out Toyota's post-warranty battery replacements (I'll give you this one: it's 1 out of every 40,000 Priuses sold since 2001). That is interesting. I keep hearing a 100K mile life. Since I tend to think any car that can't get over 200K miles with proper maintenance is a lemon, I may have a different perspective. Cost differntial on a hybrid vs a IC only compact car doesn't make economic sense. I doubt anyone has saved any money with a hybrid on a life cycle cost basis. Wes Again, check your facts. The miles one has to drive to recover the costs are pretty well established. Somebody on the Web even has a calculator that allows you to plug in gasoline costs, but I couldn't find it today. Depends hugely on driving conditions. The prius is a metro car. May make sense for the NY, Boston, DC corridor or whatever that is called. Doesn't make much sense in flyoverville. Wes |
#22
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![]() "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "John R. Carroll" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Wes" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: Well, in 1982, the idea was still pretty alien to people away from the coasts. On the other hand, until the recent slowdown, Toyota couldn't keep Prius's in stock, the demand was so high. Even in 2008, Toyota sold over 200,000 hybrids in the US through November: When their batteries crap out a few years down the road and they get the price tag on a new set, do you think they will be repeat buyers of hybrids? Did you check before questioning what the "price tag" is? You ought to do so. Look up their warranty and your question will be answered. You might also want to check out Toyota's post-warranty battery replacements (I'll give you this one: it's 1 out of every 40,000 Priuses sold since 2001). Cost differntial on a hybrid vs a IC only compact car doesn't make economic sense. I doubt anyone has saved any money with a hybrid on a life cycle cost basis. Wes Again, check your facts. The miles one has to drive to recover the costs are pretty well established. Somebody on the Web even has a calculator that allows you to plug in gasoline costs, but I couldn't find it today. The good thing here is that Wes will. I hope the rest of our country looks like him. Buffaloed maybe, stupid - no. I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't think he'd actually do it. That wasn't a brush-off. Most people won't, though. They'd rather be angry and ignorant. I wasn't passing judgement on either of you Ed, just offering my opinion. That we are all full of crap isn't important. Frankly, we are, and that's important. I think you know what I mean. JC |
#23
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On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 22:55:44 -0500, the infamous Wes
scrawled the following: "Ed Huntress" wrote: Again, check your facts. The miles one has to drive to recover the costs are pretty well established. Somebody on the Web even has a calculator that allows you to plug in gasoline costs, but I couldn't find it today. Depends hugely on driving conditions. The prius is a metro car. I disagree. As a dual-fuel, it can go hundreds of miles between fillups + charges. All-electric cars are truly metromobiles. May make sense for the NY, Boston, DC corridor or whatever that is called. Doesn't make much sense in flyoverville. Right, but 90% of the cars on the road today are metromobiles. If it weren't for the ton of tools and product I need to haul, I could use a metromobile. I seldom drive 100+ miles/week. ------ We're born hungry, wet, 'n naked, and it gets worse from there. |
#24
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![]() "John R. Carroll" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "John R. Carroll" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Wes" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: Well, in 1982, the idea was still pretty alien to people away from the coasts. On the other hand, until the recent slowdown, Toyota couldn't keep Prius's in stock, the demand was so high. Even in 2008, Toyota sold over 200,000 hybrids in the US through November: When their batteries crap out a few years down the road and they get the price tag on a new set, do you think they will be repeat buyers of hybrids? Did you check before questioning what the "price tag" is? You ought to do so. Look up their warranty and your question will be answered. You might also want to check out Toyota's post-warranty battery replacements (I'll give you this one: it's 1 out of every 40,000 Priuses sold since 2001). Cost differntial on a hybrid vs a IC only compact car doesn't make economic sense. I doubt anyone has saved any money with a hybrid on a life cycle cost basis. Wes Again, check your facts. The miles one has to drive to recover the costs are pretty well established. Somebody on the Web even has a calculator that allows you to plug in gasoline costs, but I couldn't find it today. The good thing here is that Wes will. I hope the rest of our country looks like him. Buffaloed maybe, stupid - no. I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't think he'd actually do it. That wasn't a brush-off. Most people won't, though. They'd rather be angry and ignorant. I wasn't passing judgement on either of you Ed, just offering my opinion. That we are all full of crap isn't important. Frankly, we are, and that's important. I think you know what I mean. Oh, yeah, I didn't take it negatively. I thought you were saying that Wes is the kind of guy who shapes his opinions based on an understanding of the facts. That's my impression, too, and that's what I meant. -- Ed Huntress |
#25
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![]() "Wes" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Wes" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: Well, in 1982, the idea was still pretty alien to people away from the coasts. On the other hand, until the recent slowdown, Toyota couldn't keep Prius's in stock, the demand was so high. Even in 2008, Toyota sold over 200,000 hybrids in the US through November: When their batteries crap out a few years down the road and they get the price tag on a new set, do you think they will be repeat buyers of hybrids? Did you check before questioning what the "price tag" is? You ought to do so. Look up their warranty and your question will be answered. The last time I looked it was in the 4-6 grand territory. That buys a lot of gasoline. The price tag, up to 100,000 miles or 8 years, is $0. In CA, it's 150,000 miles or 10 years. In CT, it's 15 years. Replacement cost is now around $2,800 for the battery, plus up to $700 for installation. But most people are buying used ones for $700 - $1,500. You might also want to check out Toyota's post-warranty battery replacements (I'll give you this one: it's 1 out of every 40,000 Priuses sold since 2001). That is interesting. I keep hearing a 100K mile life. Since I tend to think any car that can't get over 200K miles with proper maintenance is a lemon, I may have a different perspective. Toyota says the battery is built for an expected life of 180,000 miles, and some independent reports indicate a life of 350,000 when they're well cared for. Even with the 150,000 mile warranty in CA, their warranty claims on batteries are close to nil. In any case, at $4/gallon, you break even at just under 100,000 miles, which is the warranty life. That's assuming 45 mpg for the Prius, and 35 mpg for whatever you're comparing it with, combined highway and city. There aren't many cars that will get 35 combined. In fact, I think Edmund says the number of non-hybrid gas-powered cars sold in the US that will do it is zero. Users are reporting Prius mileage figures all over the map, but 45 mpg combined seems like a conservative average. Cost differntial on a hybrid vs a IC only compact car doesn't make economic sense. I doubt anyone has saved any money with a hybrid on a life cycle cost basis. Wes Again, check your facts. The miles one has to drive to recover the costs are pretty well established. Somebody on the Web even has a calculator that allows you to plug in gasoline costs, but I couldn't find it today. Depends hugely on driving conditions. The prius is a metro car. May make sense for the NY, Boston, DC corridor or whatever that is called. Doesn't make much sense in flyoverville. A lot of people in flypaper country have bought them. I don't like the extra complication, although I'll be convinced if someone comes up with a good plug-in version. -- Ed Huntress |
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On Jan 3, 9:34*am, Stuart Wheaton wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote: ... I never saw a Civic FE outside the showroom. So, I'm guessing you live in Montana or some other red-meat and republicans only enclave. At that time most of my driving was in Massachusetts. Many drivers there are impatient and bully all small cars, some of which poke in the fast lane. Under those conditions pickups and SUVs made sense for self-defense. jw |
#27
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Ed Huntress wrote:
I don't like the extra complication, although I'll be convinced if someone comes up with a good plug-in version. That's supposed to be coming in the next year or so. Some people have hacked theirs to allow plug-in charging, though that obviously voids the warranty.... One of my customers has a Prius and just loves it. It certainly gets far better milage than his 1963 Chevy PU! But here's someone that's not so impressed with them.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOvp69lnZbA Jon |
#28
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![]() "Jon Anderson" wrote in message news ![]() Ed Huntress wrote: I don't like the extra complication, although I'll be convinced if someone comes up with a good plug-in version. That's supposed to be coming in the next year or so. Some people have hacked theirs to allow plug-in charging, though that obviously voids the warranty.... Since you keep drawing the batteries down low when you drive on electric only, there's a concern about battery life, too. I've heard that's the reason that Toyota was bad-mouthing plug-ins early on, and wouldn't build one. Also, you'd need about $30,000 worth of their current type of batteries (NiMH, apparently soon to change to Li-ion) to get any worthwhile range out of it. One hopes that will improve over time. One of my customers has a Prius and just loves it. It certainly gets far better milage than his 1963 Chevy PU! But here's someone that's not so impressed with them.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOvp69lnZbA ROFLMAO! Oh, that's funny. -- Ed Huntress |
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On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 12:23:25 -0500, the infamous "Ed Huntress"
scrawled the following: "Jon Anderson" wrote in message news ![]() Ed Huntress wrote: I don't like the extra complication, although I'll be convinced if someone comes up with a good plug-in version. That's supposed to be coming in the next year or so. Some people have hacked theirs to allow plug-in charging, though that obviously voids the warranty.... Since you keep drawing the batteries down low when you drive on electric only, there's a concern about battery life, too. I've heard that's the reason that Toyota was bad-mouthing plug-ins early on, and wouldn't build one. Also, you'd need about $30,000 worth of their current type of batteries (NiMH, apparently soon to change to Li-ion) to get any worthwhile range out of it. One hopes that will improve over time. I haven't started reading it yet but I have a copy of _Build Your Own Electric Vehicle_ in my queue. Online, I found references to lithium polymer batteries, the next gen battery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqywKcJ0J2M One of my customers has a Prius and just loves it. It certainly gets far better milage than his 1963 Chevy PU! But here's someone that's not so impressed with them.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOvp69lnZbA ROFLMAO! Oh, that's funny. You want funny? (Totally un-related and not PC. ![]() http://www.uti.com/~thekeep/blondie.jpg -- Books are the compasses and telescopes and sextants and charts which other men have prepared to help us navigate the dangerous seas of human life. --Jesse Lee Bennett |
#30
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![]() "Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 12:23:25 -0500, the infamous "Ed Huntress" scrawled the following: "Jon Anderson" wrote in message news ![]() Ed Huntress wrote: I don't like the extra complication, although I'll be convinced if someone comes up with a good plug-in version. That's supposed to be coming in the next year or so. Some people have hacked theirs to allow plug-in charging, though that obviously voids the warranty.... Since you keep drawing the batteries down low when you drive on electric only, there's a concern about battery life, too. I've heard that's the reason that Toyota was bad-mouthing plug-ins early on, and wouldn't build one. Also, you'd need about $30,000 worth of their current type of batteries (NiMH, apparently soon to change to Li-ion) to get any worthwhile range out of it. One hopes that will improve over time. I haven't started reading it yet but I have a copy of _Build Your Own Electric Vehicle_ in my queue. Online, I found references to lithium polymer batteries, the next gen battery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqywKcJ0J2M One of my customers has a Prius and just loves it. It certainly gets far better milage than his 1963 Chevy PU! But here's someone that's not so impressed with them.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOvp69lnZbA ROFLMAO! Oh, that's funny. You want funny? (Totally un-related and not PC. ![]() http://www.uti.com/~thekeep/blondie.jpg Jeez, you're crude. d8-) -- Ed Huntress |
#31
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"Ed Huntress" wrote:
Since you keep drawing the batteries down low when you drive on electric only, there's a concern about battery life, too. I've heard that's the reason that Toyota was bad-mouthing plug-ins early on, and wouldn't build one. Also, you'd need about $30,000 worth of their current type of batteries (NiMH, apparently soon to change to Li-ion) to get any worthwhile range out of it. One hopes that will improve over time. LiPo batteries sure look interesting. LiPo 130-200 Wh/kg Nicad 40-60 Wh/kg NiMH 30-80 Wh/kg Wes |
#32
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Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
CAFE laws have killed thousands of people. Think of it that way. Light cars don't survive. But the 5 MPH or less bumper made of plastic the plastic radiator, the fold into nothing front destroys a very very expensive car and protects about the same with a real front end and airbags. Insurance rates are way up due to CAFE and just what else - not pay scales. Oh, really? I bought a Honda Civic Hybrid last fall. My 21 year-old daughter ran it THROUGH a power pole and flipped it. The pole was completely severed. She walked away without a SCRATCH! This car gets well over 50 MPG after you get it broken in. Of course, she had her seat belt on, and the air bags did their job. Oh, the plastic bumper is just for aerodynamics and looks. There is a massive extruded aluminum box beam behind it. It really doesn't look all that substantial, but it absorbed a 50 MPH impact with a power pole without tearing in half. After the rollover, the roof was caved in pretty good, but all 4 doors still opened and shut just like new! I can't speak for any other make-model, but Honda really did the engineering right on the integrity of the passenger compartment. Jon |
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F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:57:26 -0800 (PST), oldjag wrote: snip Holman Jenkins continues making his case against CAFE and other root causes of the Big Three's inability to make profitable cars in Detroit. snip -------------- Its a shame these laws only apply to Detroit and not all car producers in the US....[not] :- Jenkins continues to make excuses for Detroit. The root problems are that their cars were/are crap, the vendors have been beaten into the ground, labor relations are very bad, and senior management remains in total denial. Yeah! After two "american brand" cars in a row had VERY expensive transmission breakdowns, I have finally got my wife to swear off those disasters. I switched to Toyota in 1986 for my own car. Jon |
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#35
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They say that every time the government passes a new air quality law,
the Japanese auto manufacturers hire a hundred new engineers and the American auto manufacturers hire a hundred new lawyers. -- -Ed Falk, http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/ |
#36
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... TAX the fuel, but PUT the TAX back into
the roads ... Amen to that. Fuel should be taxed at *least* enough to pay the costs of maintaining the roads and all the other collective costs of automobiles. My understanding is that the taxpayers subsidize private cars to the tune of $3000-5000 per year per car. That just sounds like bad economic and environmental policy to me. -- -Ed Falk, http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/ |
#37
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![]() "Wes" wrote in message ... (Edward A. Falk) wrote: Amen to that. Fuel should be taxed at *least* enough to pay the costs of maintaining the roads and all the other collective costs of automobiles. My understanding is that the taxpayers subsidize private cars to the tune of $3000-5000 per year per car. That just sounds like bad economic and environmental policy to me. How many taxpayers do not own private cars? In 1970, less than 6 percent of American households owned three or more vehicles, according to the Department of Transportation. By 2000, that percentage had jumped to 18. More than 244 million vehicles were in operation in 2006, far outnumbering the 202 million licensed drivers in the country, according to the most recent federal statistics. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/business/06auto.html JC |
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#39
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On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 01:09:30 -0500, Wes wrote:
(Edward A. Falk) wrote: Amen to that. Fuel should be taxed at *least* enough to pay the costs of maintaining the roads and all the other collective costs of automobiles. It already is, at least as far as the roads go. The problem is that much of the funds are diverted to other purposes such as building boat ramps and at the state level transferred into the "general funds." My understanding is that the taxpayers subsidize private cars to the tune of $3000-5000 per year per car. That just sounds like bad economic and environmental policy to me. How many taxpayers do not own private cars? Now explain the math to me. Wes ----------- This rapidly gets *VERY* complicated, and is one of the basic reasons the "free market" is having such problems of late, namely that it is from difficult to impossible to determine the true cost of an item or activity. In many cases if the consumer was aware what a particular activity or item would cost them in total, they would never purchase it. The 3-5 k$ figure is of necessity an estimate, and derives from many sources. Mainly this is in the form of taxes that are avoided/evaded and "externalized costs" which the car companies and others should pay, but have managed to foist off on others, particularly the government, rather than any actual government subsidy check. The individual and small business taxpayer must make up the shortfall. In many cases the auto manufacturers have received special governmental financing and tax legislation amounting to 100K$ and up per employee for the location and continued operation in an area. This is upped still farther when special tax increment financing districts are created so that costs of necessary infrastructure improvements such as sewers, roads, utilities, etc. constructed for their use are considered as taxes, in lieu of actual cash payments to the governmental unit. Additionally, by shifting retiree medical care to Medicaid, the automobile companies are saving [or more precisely "cost avoiding"] billions of dollars per year at tax payer expense. In contrast to individuals, interest is tax deductible for most corporations. More indirectly, the petroleum companies that supply the vehicle fuel also receive huge tax breaks in the form of depletion allowances, "free" or very low cost oil pumped from publicly owned land, and special tax treatment, for example allowing the companies to offset much of the cost of crude oil imported from overseas against their US taxes, because the exporting country, apparently in collusion with the oil companies, raised their taxes rather than increasing their royalties on oil. In most cases the domestic refineries also receive huge tax breaks on their local property taxes, compared to the normal property tax rates and fees. A very considerable amount of "transfer pricing" also occurs where profits are shifted to low/no tax jurisdictions. The construction/maintaince of roads is another very expensive area, with some new express ways in California now costing more than 1 million dollars *PER INCH* to construct. When environmental damage and worker safety are included, the costs may well be [far] in excess of 5k$. For example the rate of cancer is much higher in refinery workers and people living in close proximity than the general population, and their treatement/premature deaths result in a huge expense to the economy. Another concern is the mercury contamination around most refineries and carbon black operations, and the neurological damage this substance can cause. A "retard" is an economic drain on society as long as they live, and the more the handicap, the higher the cost [and someone must pay]. Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end? Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625). |
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On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 07:49:05 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote: "Wes" wrote in message ... (Edward A. Falk) wrote: Amen to that. Fuel should be taxed at *least* enough to pay the costs of maintaining the roads and all the other collective costs of automobiles. My understanding is that the taxpayers subsidize private cars to the tune of $3000-5000 per year per car. That just sounds like bad economic and environmental policy to me. How many taxpayers do not own private cars? In 1970, less than 6 percent of American households owned three or more vehicles, according to the Department of Transportation. By 2000, that percentage had jumped to 18. More than 244 million vehicles were in operation in 2006, far outnumbering the 202 million licensed drivers in the country, according to the most recent federal statistics. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/business/06auto.html JC ---------- According to the latest numbers I could find, there are 1.05 vehicles [cars or light trucks, not including motorcycles] per person in the US, with a high of 1.82 per person in Wyoming to a low of 0.48 in D.C. The unusual thing is that the per capita vehicle ownership decreases as the per capita GDP income increases, possible because higher income individuals tend to be concentrated in congested areas where cars are less useful. For data and regression chart in xls format click on http://mcduffee-associates.us/PE/vehiclespercap.xls Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end? Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625). |
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