How do you drive a vertical shaft with a horizontal motor mount?

I understand mitre gear, spiral gear and a worm drive. Is there another way?
I have been looking through several texts and am not having much luck. Is
there a way to do it with a chain? I cannot see a V-belt doing it. Some sort
of friction drive instead of gears? But how good is the power transmission
in such case?

Thanks,

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

On 2008-09-23, Michael Koblic wrote:
How do you drive a vertical shaft with a horizontal motor mount?

I understand mitre gear, spiral gear and a worm drive. Is there another way?
I have been looking through several texts and am not having much luck. Is
there a way to do it with a chain?

You mean a roller chain? I don't think so.

I cannot see a V-belt doing it.

I can:

1) Pulley on shaft of motor.

2) un the belt up some distance -- how far depends on the width of
the belt, and thus how easy it is to twist.

3) Set two idler pulleys at about a 45 degree angle to both the
motor shaft and the vertical shaft. Bend the belt over the
idler pulleys to a pulley up at the right height on the vertical
shaft.

or:

Put the motor some distance away from the shaft, and twist the
V-belt through 90 degrees. This takes more distance. The shorter the
belt, the faster it will die.

Some sort
of friction drive instead of gears? But how good is the power transmission
in such case?

Not very. Not as good as the V-belts would be above. Flat
leather belts could handle the twist more easily than the V-belts, but
the pulleys would be larger.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...
How do you drive a vertical shaft with a horizontal motor mount?

I understand mitre gear, spiral gear and a worm drive. Is there another
way? I have been looking through several texts and am not having much
luck. Is there a way to do it with a chain? I cannot see a V-belt doing
it. Some sort of friction drive instead of gears? But how good is the
power transmission in such case?

Thanks,

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC


I have seen V belt drives twisted to change the axis 90 degrees - might have
been on an old big mower. Others here will know. I imaging the rotation may
limit speed & power.

In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-09-23, Michael Koblic wrote:
How do you drive a vertical shaft with a horizontal motor mount?

I understand mitre gear, spiral gear and a worm drive. Is there another
way?
I have been looking through several texts and am not having much luck. Is
there a way to do it with a chain?

You mean a roller chain? I don't think so.

I cannot see a V-belt doing it.

I can:

1) Pulley on shaft of motor.

2) un the belt up some distance -- how far depends on the width of
the belt, and thus how easy it is to twist.

3) Set two idler pulleys at about a 45 degree angle to both the
motor shaft and the vertical shaft. Bend the belt over the
idler pulleys to a pulley up at the right height on the vertical
shaft.

or:

Put the motor some distance away from the shaft, and twist the
V-belt through 90 degrees. This takes more distance. The shorter the
belt, the faster it will die.

Some
sort
of friction drive instead of gears? But how good is the power transmission
in such case?

Not very. Not as good as the V-belts would be above. Flat
leather belts could handle the twist more easily than the V-belts, but
the pulleys would be larger.

Good Luck,
DoN.

All this reminds me of the Corvair.

Erik

On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:30:33 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:

How do you drive a vertical shaft with a horizontal motor mount?

I understand mitre gear, spiral gear and a worm drive. Is there another way?
I have been looking through several texts and am not having much luck. Is
there a way to do it with a chain? I cannot see a V-belt doing it.

Google
v-belt "quarter turn drives"
and you'll find how to design such a belt drive. For example:
http://www.bandousa.com/html/pdfs_te...aint_25168.pdf

--
Ned Simmons

Belts do it all of the time.

Consider the old time drill press.

The spindle is verticle to the ground. So the pulley
runs in the plane of the floor, but elevated to the top of the
drill press.

The motor is mounted on a plate on the floor or below the head of the
drill press. It is a horizontal (normal mounting) with a cone facing
the user with the axis perpendicular to that of the post or spindle.

In the back are re-direction pulleys that take the loop from the top cone
horz back and over the re-direction pulley - down to the motor cone, around
and back up over a second re-direction pulley on the way back to the top cone.

The belt is a L shape and the belt is round or 4 sided.

Here is a concept:

http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/advert/aw7.htm

Dad had one - but these are used on other tools.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Michael Koblic wrote:
How do you drive a vertical shaft with a horizontal motor mount?

I understand mitre gear, spiral gear and a worm drive. Is there another way?
I have been looking through several texts and am not having much luck. Is
there a way to do it with a chain? I cannot see a V-belt doing it. Some sort
of friction drive instead of gears? But how good is the power transmission
in such case?

Thanks,



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Michael Koblic wrote:
How do you drive a vertical shaft with a horizontal motor mount?

I understand mitre gear, spiral gear and a worm drive. Is there another way?
I have been looking through several texts and am not having much luck. Is
there a way to do it with a chain? I cannot see a V-belt doing it. Some sort
of friction drive instead of gears? But how good is the power transmission
in such case?

Thanks,


Could it be done with chain? Yes, BUT not easily you would have to use
multiple stages with each chain twisted a bit.

VERY common to see V belts for this. In fact about 50% of the lawn and
garden tractors use this method of power division. EVERY Cub Cadet made
until about 1997 used this method to power the mower decks, tillers and
other attachments. Very simple to twist the belt to different orientations.

Friction drive is also common. Many snow blowers use a friction disc and
platen to provide variable speed drive. The problem with friction drive
is that it likes to slip.

--
Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York

On Sep 22, 7:30*pm, "Michael Koblic" wrote:
How do you drive a vertical shaft with a horizontal motor mount?

.. Is
there a way to do it with a chain?
Thanks,

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

I do not know where you would get chain pulleys, but it could be done
with ordinary chain. One driving pulley, one driven pulley, and two
idler pulleys.

What speed are you wanting and how much power?

Dan

On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:24:41 -0700, Erik wrote:
On 2008-09-23, Michael Koblic wrote:

How do you drive a vertical shaft with a horizontal motor mount?

All this reminds me of the Corvair.

And that system works well. But there are tricks you need to know
before finding out the hard way: Wrapped belts, and a special belt
profile are necessary - NOT the usual 3L belts, it's a deeper vee
angle. If you run standard 3L belts they'll fling and/or snap
regularly, get the proper repro belt and it'll last for years.

Been there...

-- Bruce --

wrote: in message
...
On Sep 22, 7:30 pm, "Michael Koblic" wrote:
How do you drive a vertical shaft with a horizontal motor mount?

.. Is
there a way to do it with a chain?
Thanks,

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

I do not know where you would get chain pulleys, but(clip) it could be done
with ordinary chain. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You must mean "ordinary" like tow chain or anchor chain--certainly not
roller chain.

On Sep 22, 10:30 pm, "Michael Koblic" wrote:
How do you drive a vertical shaft with a horizontal motor mount?

...I cannot see a V-belt doing it. ...
Michael Koblic,

You cannot see a V-belt doing it because they prefer to do it in dark
places like under riding mowers.

On my Sears garden tractor the 18HP engine is mounted like in a small
airplane, two opposed cylinders (even-numbered radial?) with the
crankshaft extending out the front and rear. A pulley on the rear
shaft drives the wheels, one on the front turns the mower blade, or
currently the hydraulic pump.

Both front and rear vee belts drop down to vee idler pulleys that
redirect the belts to the rear. The belts twist a quarter turn between
the drive and idler pulleys.

The mower belt then turns the vertical shaft of the primary quill in
the mower housing, i.e. spins the blade. The drive belt makes another
quarter twist to the pulley on the rear wheel transmission, which is
on a shaft parallel to the rear axle. These are B size belts nominally
handling up to 18HP although in practice the rear tires will slip with
the engine at idle, and that is with tire chains, 120 Lbs of extra
steel in the back plus me on the seat and a trailer with all the
weight in the front to load the tongue.

There are lots of useful components on scrapped riding mowers
including right-angled reduction drives and differentials. They show
you how little you can get away with when designing shafts and
bearings that are easy to fabricate and don't have to last as long as
industrial ones. Often the control shafts simply run in stamped holes
in the sheet metal frame. Examining them and cheap floor jacks showed
me that unhardened roller bearings made from pipe and welding rod are
practical.

Jim Wilkins

Michael Koblic wrote:
How do you drive a vertical shaft with a horizontal motor mount?

I understand mitre gear, spiral gear and a worm drive. Is there another way?
I have been looking through several texts and am not having much luck. Is
there a way to do it with a chain? I cannot see a V-belt doing it. Some sort
of friction drive instead of gears? But how good is the power transmission
in such case?
There are special "3-D" chains that can do this. Belts are easy. See
if you can find a picture of a Corvair engine, the fan was run by a
right-angle belt drive. The generator was one of the pivot pulleys, the
other was an idler.
Try this, if hand-held cameras don't make you dizzy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4eCwnz5aCA

Jon

On Sep 23, 1:43*am, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:
wrote: in message

...
On Sep 22, 7:30 pm, "Michael Koblic" wrote:

How do you drive a vertical shaft with a horizontal motor mount?

. Is
there a way to do it with a chain?
Thanks,

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

I do not know where you would get chain pulleys, but(clip) *it could be done
with ordinary chain. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You must mean "ordinary" like tow chain or anchor chain--certainly not
roller chain.

Or ball chain. McMaster lists it in sizes up to 1/2"...you'd still
have to make up your own pulleys.

Michael Koblic wrote:
How do you drive a vertical shaft with a horizontal motor mount?

I understand mitre gear, spiral gear and a worm drive. Is there another way?
I have been looking through several texts and am not having much luck. Is
there a way to do it with a chain? I cannot see a V-belt doing it. Some sort
of friction drive instead of gears? But how good is the power transmission
in such case?

Thanks,


Continental have a number of design guides available. I have used the
poly V belt guide for a design and it gives details of 90 degree drive
considerations at the end of the guide
http://www.contitech.de/pages/produk...irib_de_en.pdf
..

You might also look here for the wider range of belts and their details
to see if the give recommendations for 90 degree drive service
http://www.contitech.de/pages/produk...ustrie_en.html
..

wrote:
Or ball chain. McMaster lists it in sizes up to 1/2"...

Interesting. Described as used to "... keep tools with machines, keys
with chucks, as well as gas and dust caps with tanks." But with a
tensile strength of up to 200lbs, maybe it could be used for power
transmission. Question of how long the connections would last with
constant flexing under load.

Bob
--
Nota for President

Ned Simmons wrote:
...
http://www.bandousa.com/html/pdfs_te...aint_25168.pdf


Great link, thanks. Bob

--
Nota for President

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:30:33 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:

How do you drive a vertical shaft with a horizontal motor mount?

I understand mitre gear, spiral gear and a worm drive. Is there another
way?
I have been looking through several texts and am not having much luck. Is
there a way to do it with a chain? I cannot see a V-belt doing it.

Google
v-belt "quarter turn drives"
and you'll find how to design such a belt drive. For example:
http://www.bandousa.com/html/pdfs_te...aint_25168.pdf

Thank you and everybody else for multiple helpful responses.
1) Quarter turn drives - it is remarkable that even now that I know what the
proper terminology is Google comes up with only one other reference. The
Bando article is probably the clearest (wonder why they called the company
after an obscure Burmese martial art...).
2) It is good to know that the whole thing can be done with or without idler
pulleys.
3) I was suspicious of a friction drive. Knowing that this is in fact the
proper term for it Google comes up with wealth of sutff. It seems that this
concept is strong enough to drive motorbikes, snowblowers etc. Also there
seems to be an in-built mechanism for speed regulation (moving the friction
wheel in or out on the diameter of the other.
4) Other info on bearings etc. - very useful. I see someone built a lathe
using copper pipe as bearings.

The fun continues...

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

*But with a tensile strength of up to 200lbs, maybe it could be used
for power transmission. *Question of how long the connections would
last with constant flexing under load.

Well, the only time I've seen it used that way was in kinnetic
sculpture, so the load wasn't very high...
--Glenn Lyford