Today I was faced with having to produce a 10 mm x 18 mm mild steel
cylinder. Not having a chop saw or similar I stuck a piece of stock in the
chuck of my 8" drill press, improvised a scribe and marked out a
circumferential line where the cut was to be made. I made the cut along the
line (more or less) with a hacksaw. It was not too bad, but not quite flat
and not quite at right angles to the sides.

This is where the problem came.

I do not have a lathe. All I have is a drill press and a 6" disk-4X36 belt
sander. I just could not get the cut straightened up. The disk sander has a
degree of give in it so pressure causes a variable deviation. The mitre
gauge has a minor degree of play. I tried switching to the belt sander in a
vertical position and the result was even worse. In any case one does not
relish getting one's fingers that close to abrasive material at high speed.

In the end, this is what I did: I clamped the cylinder in the drill press
chuck so that about 6 mm stuck out. I found an old file which was quite big
and flat. I clamped it to the drill press table. I slathered it with a
cutting compound, turned the drill press to 1500 rpm and lowered away. It
took quite some time but the result was really quite good.

Unfortunately I slightly spoiled the result through impatience: The file was
not cutting fast enough and I thought I would try to wrap it in coarse sand
paper. With the most stock removal happening at the periphery and the slight
"give" of the sand paper the cylinder is ever so slightly convex rather than
perfectly flat.

I am not sure how many safety commandments I violated but it got the job
done.

Does anyone have any suggestions how to tackle a similar problem given
limited resources and definite lack of manual skills?

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Michael Koblic wrote:
Today I was faced with having to produce a 10 mm x 18 mm mild steel
cylinder. (...)

Does anyone have any suggestions how to tackle a similar problem given
limited resources and definite lack of manual skills?

I would cheat.

Borrow a 1/2" drill motor. Wrap a couple layers of masking tape evenly around
the butt end of your workpiece. Chuck up the taped end and brace the body
of the drill motor (with the power cable facing away from the center of the
earth) against your belt sander table. Run both sander and drill so that your
workpiece axis is oriented at right angles to the belt.

With the drill motor 'upside down' like that, your workpiece will be much more
controllable and won't tend to tear holes in your belt. It will tend to
'kick' *away* from the belt when it catches. This is devoutly to be desired.

This also works for putting a neat chamfer or radius on the end of your
workpiece.

--Winston

On Thu, 15 May 2008 23:14:31 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:

Today I was faced with having to produce a 10 mm x 18 mm mild steel
cylinder. Not having a chop saw or similar I stuck a piece of stock in the
chuck of my 8" drill press, improvised a scribe and marked out a
circumferential line where the cut was to be made. I made the cut along the
line (more or less) with a hacksaw. It was not too bad, but not quite flat
and not quite at right angles to the sides.

This is where the problem came.

I do not have a lathe. All I have is a drill press and a 6" disk-4X36 belt
sander. I just could not get the cut straightened up. The disk sander has a
degree of give in it so pressure causes a variable deviation. The mitre
gauge has a minor degree of play. I tried switching to the belt sander in a
vertical position and the result was even worse. In any case one does not
relish getting one's fingers that close to abrasive material at high speed.

In the end, this is what I did: I clamped the cylinder in the drill press
chuck so that about 6 mm stuck out. I found an old file which was quite big
and flat. I clamped it to the drill press table. I slathered it with a
cutting compound, turned the drill press to 1500 rpm and lowered away. It
took quite some time but the result was really quite good.

Unfortunately I slightly spoiled the result through impatience: The file was
not cutting fast enough and I thought I would try to wrap it in coarse sand
paper. With the most stock removal happening at the periphery and the slight
"give" of the sand paper the cylinder is ever so slightly convex rather than
perfectly flat.

I am not sure how many safety commandments I violated but it got the job
done.

Does anyone have any suggestions how to tackle a similar problem given
limited resources and definite lack of manual skills?


Get a drill press and a big file :-)


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

On Fri, 16 May 2008 15:58:56 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

On Thu, 15 May 2008 23:14:31 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:

Today I was faced with having to produce a 10 mm x 18 mm mild steel
cylinder. Not having a chop saw or similar I stuck a piece of stock in the
chuck of my 8" drill press, improvised a scribe and marked out a
circumferential line where the cut was to be made. I made the cut along the
line (more or less) with a hacksaw. It was not too bad, but not quite flat
and not quite at right angles to the sides.

This is where the problem came.

I do not have a lathe. All I have is a drill press and a 6" disk-4X36 belt
sander. I just could not get the cut straightened up. The disk sander has a
degree of give in it so pressure causes a variable deviation. The mitre
gauge has a minor degree of play. I tried switching to the belt sander in a
vertical position and the result was even worse. In any case one does not
relish getting one's fingers that close to abrasive material at high speed.

In the end, this is what I did: I clamped the cylinder in the drill press
chuck so that about 6 mm stuck out. I found an old file which was quite big
and flat. I clamped it to the drill press table. I slathered it with a
cutting compound, turned the drill press to 1500 rpm and lowered away. It
took quite some time but the result was really quite good.

Unfortunately I slightly spoiled the result through impatience: The file was
not cutting fast enough and I thought I would try to wrap it in coarse sand
paper. With the most stock removal happening at the periphery and the slight
"give" of the sand paper the cylinder is ever so slightly convex rather than
perfectly flat.

I am not sure how many safety commandments I violated but it got the job
done.

Does anyone have any suggestions how to tackle a similar problem given
limited resources and definite lack of manual skills?


Get a drill press and a big file :-)


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

Smiley or not, it worked. On the other hand, you have an issue
because the center is turning but not moving relative to the file,
therefore not cutting. For flat, I like Winston's approach. I've
used similar.

On May 16, 2:14*am, "Michael Koblic" wrote:
Today I was faced with having to produce a 10 mm x 18 mm mild steel
cylinder.
...
Does anyone have any suggestions how to tackle a similar problem given
limited resources and definite lack of manual skills?
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

I had the manual skills (verbally) beaten into me in Jr High wood
shop. The old Swedish cabinetmaker who taught it made us plane and
file blocks of wood square enough to show light evenly against a try
square before we could use the power tools. The experience made us
really appreciate accurate machinery and able to do a good job where
the common machines don't help, like sharpening a plane or chisel
blade.

Filing an end square is much easier if you have a long guide surface.
In this case you could hold the cylinder in saw grooves between two
blocks of wood and use the outer edges of the wood as the guide. A
good coarse file cuts steel pretty quickly and a "hand" or "pillar"
file makes a nice finished surface. Put some tape on the wood so if
the file hits it will catch the tape rather than lower your guide
surface.

Jim Wilkins

On Thu, 15 May 2008 23:14:31 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Michael Koblic" quickly quoth:

Today I was faced with having to produce a 10 mm x 18 mm mild steel
cylinder. Not having a chop saw or similar I stuck a piece of stock in the
chuck of my 8" drill press, improvised a scribe and marked out a
circumferential line where the cut was to be made. I made the cut along the
line (more or less) with a hacksaw. It was not too bad, but not quite flat
and not quite at right angles to the sides.

This is where the problem came.

This is gonna be one of those "Hey, y'all: HOLD MY BEER & WATCH THIS!"
posts, isn't it, Mikey?


I do not have a lathe. All I have is a drill press and a 6" disk-4X36 belt
sander. I just could not get the cut straightened up. The disk sander has a
degree of give in it so pressure causes a variable deviation. The mitre
gauge has a minor degree of play. I tried switching to the belt sander in a
vertical position and the result was even worse. In any case one does not
relish getting one's fingers that close to abrasive material at high speed.

In the end, this is what I did: I clamped the cylinder in the drill press
chuck so that about 6 mm stuck out. I found an old file which was quite big
and flat. I clamped it to the drill press table. I slathered it with a
cutting compound, turned the drill press to 1500 rpm and lowered away. It
took quite some time but the result was really quite good.

Unfortunately I slightly spoiled the result through impatience: The file was
not cutting fast enough and I thought I would try to wrap it in coarse sand
paper. With the most stock removal happening at the periphery and the slight
"give" of the sand paper the cylinder is ever so slightly convex rather than
perfectly flat.

I am not sure how many safety commandments I violated but it got the job
done.

Does anyone have any suggestions how to tackle a similar problem given
limited resources and definite lack of manual skills?

Yes. Before you need machining work again, find someone local who has
a small machine shop and become friends with them. The digits you save
may be your own! Advertise in the paper if you have to.

"WANTED: Friend with machine shop to help make fun small stuff."

-
Press HERE to arm. (Release to detonate.)
-----------

--FWIW a pal of mine from the old neighborhood made an R/C
helicopter back in the very early days of same, using a file and a
drillpress. Impressed the heck outta me and everyone else who saw it fly!

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : "Hold on! we're entering
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : the moronosphere!"
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 15 May 2008 23:14:31 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Michael Koblic" quickly quoth:

Today I was faced with having to produce a 10 mm x 18 mm mild steel
cylinder. Not having a chop saw or similar I stuck a piece of stock in the
chuck of my 8" drill press, improvised a scribe and marked out a
circumferential line where the cut was to be made. I made the cut along the
line (more or less) with a hacksaw. It was not too bad, but not quite flat
and not quite at right angles to the sides.

This is where the problem came.

This is gonna be one of those "Hey, y'all: HOLD MY BEER & WATCH THIS!"
posts, isn't it, Mikey?

Well, if that's what you want, I can help.

I've seen grown adults that should have known
better chuck the work in the drill press
spindle, grip a lathe tool in the drill press
vice and hand-feed it into the work while
it spun. Not recommended.


I do not have a lathe. All I have is a drill press and a 6" disk-4X36 belt
sander. I just could not get the cut straightened up. The disk sander has a
degree of give in it so pressure causes a variable deviation. The mitre
gauge has a minor degree of play. I tried switching to the belt sander in a
vertical position and the result was even worse. In any case one does not
relish getting one's fingers that close to abrasive material at high speed.

In the end, this is what I did: I clamped the cylinder in the drill press
chuck so that about 6 mm stuck out. I found an old file which was quite big
and flat. I clamped it to the drill press table. I slathered it with a
cutting compound, turned the drill press to 1500 rpm and lowered away. It
took quite some time but the result was really quite good.

Unfortunately I slightly spoiled the result through impatience: The file was
not cutting fast enough and I thought I would try to wrap it in coarse sand
paper. With the most stock removal happening at the periphery and the slight
"give" of the sand paper the cylinder is ever so slightly convex rather than
perfectly flat.

I am not sure how many safety commandments I violated but it got the job
done.

Does anyone have any suggestions how to tackle a similar problem given
limited resources and definite lack of manual skills?

Yes. Before you need machining work again, find someone local who has
a small machine shop and become friends with them. The digits you save
may be your own! Advertise in the paper if you have to.

"WANTED: Friend with machine shop to help make fun small stuff."

-
Press HERE to arm. (Release to detonate.)
-----------

Pete Keillor wrote in
:

Smiley or not, it worked. On the other hand, you have an issue
because the center is turning but not moving relative to the file,
therefore not cutting. For flat, I like Winston's approach. I've
used similar.

For a similar "project" - I didn't have a sander like his - I simply
center-punched the end of the piece and, then, worked it on a clamped-down
file until the center hole disappeared. grin

FWIW, it helps - a lot - to have the file clamped down so that the edge
toward the center of the piece is barely _at_ the center. This allows the
file teeth to function properly and provides an "escape route" for filings.

There is no doubt that there are exceptionally skilled people out there. In
the old country, where needs must, people would make all sorts of things out
of stuff they had available.

I was into ham radio then and made my share of stuff, but what some of the
others could do was amazing. There was guy who reproduced the Collins "S'
Line (a top of the line transceiver with a power amp and a tuner) by
painstakingly making his own component parts. In the process he had to make
all kinds of special tool (coil winders etc.). He made the national
magazine.

Others believed in adaptability and liberally adapted assorted Wehrmacht
equipment to their uses with considerable success.

Sadly, I can only dream of that level of skill.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

"steamer" wrote in message
...
--FWIW a pal of mine from the old neighborhood made an R/C
helicopter back in the very early days of same, using a file and a
drillpress. Impressed the heck outta me and everyone else who saw it fly!

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : "Hold on! we're entering
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : the moronosphere!"
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

It is good to now that great minds think alike :-)

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
Does anyone have any suggestions how to tackle a similar problem given
limited resources and definite lack of manual skills?


Get a drill press and a big file :-)


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

I have try it again, this time with the file only. I suspect that the sand
paper screwed things up ever so slightly. Maybe even get a new, bigger file,
one that is not over 25 years old...

"Pete Keillor" wrote in message
...
Smiley or not, it worked. On the other hand, you have an issue
because the center is turning but not moving relative to the file,
therefore not cutting. For flat, I like Winston's approach. I've
used similar.

Clamping down - essential! I tried that hand feed thingy but had to dodge
the end of the file once too often...
BTW my indicator of success was appearance of pleasing concentric rings.

"RAM³" wrote in message
0...
Pete Keillor wrote in
:

Smiley or not, it worked. On the other hand, you have an issue
because the center is turning but not moving relative to the file,
therefore not cutting. For flat, I like Winston's approach. I've
used similar.

For a similar "project" - I didn't have a sander like his - I simply
center-punched the end of the piece and, then, worked it on a clamped-down
file until the center hole disappeared. grin

FWIW, it helps - a lot - to have the file clamped down so that the edge
toward the center of the piece is barely _at_ the center. This allows the
file teeth to function properly and provides an "escape route" for
filings.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
Does anyone have any suggestions how to tackle a similar problem given
limited resources and definite lack of manual skills?

Yes. Before you need machining work again, find someone local who has
a small machine shop and become friends with them. The digits you save
may be your own! Advertise in the paper if you have to.

"WANTED: Friend with machine shop to help make fun small stuff."

What, next thing you will be telling me to buy my meat in the supermarket!

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
.. .
I've seen grown adults that should have known
better chuck the work in the drill press
spindle, grip a lathe tool in the drill press
vice and hand-feed it into the work while
it spun. Not recommended.

LOL! I actually thought about that...too scary even for me!

I use my mill as a redneck lathe. I even bought a R8 backed lathe
chuck for this purpose. Works kind of OK.

i

On May 16, 4:22*pm, "Michael Koblic" wrote:
I have try it again, this time with the file only. I suspect that the sand
paper screwed things up ever so slightly. Maybe even get a new, bigger file,
one that is not over 25 years old...

Get a selection of good ones and don't dump them all together in a
drawer. My largest file rack is a plank hung vertically on the wall
with pairs of finishing nails driven in at a downward angle to hold
several dozen files. I used a triangular strip of wood as a guide to
drive the nails.

Jim Wilkins

Michael Koblic wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
Does anyone have any suggestions how to tackle a similar problem given
limited resources and definite lack of manual skills?

Yes. Before you need machining work again, find someone local who has
a small machine shop and become friends with them. The digits you save
may be your own! Advertise in the paper if you have to.

"WANTED: Friend with machine shop to help make fun small stuff."

What, next thing you will be telling me to buy my meat in the supermarket!


They will arrest you if you steal it.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html


Use any search engine other than Google till they stop polluting USENET
with porn and junk commercial SPAM

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm

Now that is interesting, I had a similar thought just an hour ago: Would a
3/8" end-mill work in a drill press? My drill runs slowest 720 rpm but
according to the tables this should be OK for mild steel - certainly for
drilling. Does this applies to mills, too?
I would have thought the feed speed will be critical but maybe not.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

"Ignoramus620" wrote in message
...
I use my mill as a redneck lathe. I even bought a R8 backed lathe
chuck for this purpose. Works kind of OK.

i

On 2008-05-17, Michael Koblic wrote:
Now that is interesting, I had a similar thought just an hour ago: Would a
3/8" end-mill work in a drill press? My drill runs slowest 720 rpm but
according to the tables this should be OK for mild steel - certainly for
drilling. Does this applies to mills, too?
I would have thought the feed speed will be critical but maybe not.


It will certainly not work if you are on a morse tapered
spindle. The drill chuck will fall out due to transverse forces.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On May 16, 4:22 pm, "Michael Koblic" wrote:
I have try it again, this time with the file only. I suspect that the
sand
paper screwed things up ever so slightly. Maybe even get a new, bigger
file,
one that is not over 25 years old...

Get a selection of good ones and don't dump them all together in a
drawer. My largest file rack is a plank hung vertically on the wall
with pairs of finishing nails driven in at a downward angle to hold
several dozen files. I used a triangular strip of wood as a guide to
drive the nails.

Jim Wilkins

Even when "worn out" and/or seriously abused, files make good raw material
for knife blades. grin

On Fri, 16 May 2008 13:26:41 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Michael Koblic" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
Does anyone have any suggestions how to tackle a similar problem given
limited resources and definite lack of manual skills?

Yes. Before you need machining work again, find someone local who has
a small machine shop and become friends with them. The digits you save
may be your own! Advertise in the paper if you have to.

"WANTED: Friend with machine shop to help make fun small stuff."

What, next thing you will be telling me to buy my meat in the supermarket!

Not if you can shoot it on the cloven hoof! Got my address? I adore
venison and will happily pay shipping.

Hunting is far safer than -many- of the antics we've each pulled in
the shop. Most of us are lucky to still have all our digits.

-
Press HERE to arm. (Release to detonate.)
-----------

On May 16, 9:59*pm, "Michael Koblic" wrote:
Now that is interesting, I had a similar thought just an hour ago: Would a
3/8" end-mill work in a drill press? My drill runs slowest 720 rpm but
according to the tables this should be OK for mild steel - certainly for
drilling. Does this applies to mills, too?
I would have thought the feed speed will be critical but maybe not.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Yes and no, depends on the drill press. I've seen an end mill used to -
drill- on a lightweight drill press chatter and vibrate until the
chuck fell off the taper. Large drill bits chatter on that drill press
too, but the conical bit point keeps the force in line with the
spindle and taper whereas an end mill can walk sideways.

I spent years trying to cut metal with hand tools and woodworking
machines. In general I found that aluminum was OK but they simply
weren't rigid enough to cut steel well, even with suitable tool bits
at the right speed. Hand tools were frustrating until I bought good-
quality files and hacksaw blades and learned to see what was going
wrong and correct it. The increasing patience of age and magnifying
safety glasses helped a lot.

Jim Wilkins

On May 16, 11:17*pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:

What, next thing you will be telling me to buy my meat in the supermarket!

Not if you can shoot it on the cloven hoof! *Got my address? I adore
venison and will happily pay shipping.

Hunting is far safer than -many- of the antics we've each pulled in
the shop. Most of us are lucky to still have all our digits.

NH sells approximate the same number of hunting licenses and boat
registrations, but boating sends around 100 people to the hospital for
each hunting accident.

Jim Wilkins wrote in news:eed185ff-d8b5-4abb-a488-
:

NH sells approximate the same number of hunting licenses and boat
registrations, but boating sends around 100 people to the hospital for
each hunting accident.

When I was a diver in a "Rescue" unit, I came to the conclusion that those
who rejected the wearing of flotation vests should be required to have a
sealed - but empty - 1-gallon jug tied to some part of their anatomy and
the jug should have the word "BODY" written on the bottom and all 4 sides.
grin

I never had to spend any cold, wet, winter nights stooging around in a body
of water looking for someone in a flotation vest but lots of them trying to
find the remains of those who shunned them.

BTW, in *my* boat, the vests went on *before* the boat was launched and
*stayed on* until the boat was back on the trailer and tied down for the
night. GRIN

On May 17, 10:27Â*am, "RAM�" wrote:
...
BTW, in *my* boat, the vests went on *before* the boat was launched and
*stayed on* until the boat was back on the trailer and tied down for the
night. GRIN

I used to be active in a Mensa group that ran a canoe trip each year.
We had a few spills and I couldn't believe how intelligent people
froze like a deer in the headlights in an emergency.

By first doing it myself I convinced them to unload the gear at a
sandy beach and let the kids have fun rocking the canoes until they
flipped. The adults followed and learned how easily a canoe rolls and
to deal with a swamped one. Afterwards the whole group wore their life
jackets without prompting.

Jim Wilkins

On Fri, 16 May 2008 06:40:34 -0400, Pete Keillor
wrote:

On Fri, 16 May 2008 15:58:56 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

On Thu, 15 May 2008 23:14:31 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:

Today I was faced with having to produce a 10 mm x 18 mm mild steel
cylinder. Not having a chop saw or similar I stuck a piece of stock in the
chuck of my 8" drill press, improvised a scribe and marked out a
circumferential line where the cut was to be made. I made the cut along the
line (more or less) with a hacksaw. It was not too bad, but not quite flat
and not quite at right angles to the sides.

This is where the problem came.

I do not have a lathe. All I have is a drill press and a 6" disk-4X36 belt
sander. I just could not get the cut straightened up. The disk sander has a
degree of give in it so pressure causes a variable deviation. The mitre
gauge has a minor degree of play. I tried switching to the belt sander in a
vertical position and the result was even worse. In any case one does not
relish getting one's fingers that close to abrasive material at high speed.

In the end, this is what I did: I clamped the cylinder in the drill press
chuck so that about 6 mm stuck out. I found an old file which was quite big
and flat. I clamped it to the drill press table. I slathered it with a
cutting compound, turned the drill press to 1500 rpm and lowered away. It
took quite some time but the result was really quite good.

Unfortunately I slightly spoiled the result through impatience: The file was
not cutting fast enough and I thought I would try to wrap it in coarse sand
paper. With the most stock removal happening at the periphery and the slight
"give" of the sand paper the cylinder is ever so slightly convex rather than
perfectly flat.

I am not sure how many safety commandments I violated but it got the job
done.

Does anyone have any suggestions how to tackle a similar problem given
limited resources and definite lack of manual skills?


Get a drill press and a big file :-)


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

Smiley or not, it worked. On the other hand, you have an issue
because the center is turning but not moving relative to the file,
therefore not cutting. For flat, I like Winston's approach. I've
used similar.


The smiley was because he had just done it and I was saying that he
had done it right for what he had to work with.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On May 17, 10:27 am, "RAM�" wrote:
...
BTW, in *my* boat, the vests went on *before* the boat was launched and
*stayed on* until the boat was back on the trailer and tied down for the
night. GRIN

I used to be active in a Mensa group that ran a canoe trip each year.
We had a few spills and I couldn't believe how intelligent people
froze like a deer in the headlights in an emergency.

By first doing it myself I convinced them to unload the gear at a
sandy beach and let the kids have fun rocking the canoes until they
flipped. The adults followed and learned how easily a canoe rolls and
to deal with a swamped one. Afterwards the whole group wore their life
jackets without prompting.

Jim Wilkins

chuckling

Back in the mid '60s I was invited to attend a Mensa meeting.

Perhaps it was just the members there, perhaps it was just a "thing of the
times", but I quickly got bored with a bunch of people that were simply
trying to play "one-upmanship" with each other in an attempt to show off how
bright they were.

There's far more intelligence demonstrated *here* than I saw *there*. G

While we get our share of trolls who start out playing "dummy", even *they*
provide either "comic relief" or a "strawman" against whom to evaluate one's
own position. VBG