The Clausing 1300 lathe I recently aquired has a lever operated Royal
5C collet closer which works fine, but I want to install a chuck. It
looks like the collet holder in the spindle will need to come out, as
it is larger in diameter than the O.D. of the D1-4 locating cone on
the spindle nose. Whats the correct way to remove the adapter from the
spindle nose bore?

On 2008-01-09, oldjag wrote:
The Clausing 1300 lathe I recently aquired has a lever operated Royal
5C collet closer which works fine, but I want to install a chuck. It
looks like the collet holder in the spindle will need to come out, as
it is larger in diameter than the O.D. of the D1-4 locating cone on
the spindle nose. Whats the correct way to remove the adapter from the
spindle nose bore?

Apparently, from another discussion, it is to reach through the
spindle (after pulling the drawbar (and collet). Pulling the drawbar
requires pulling a lever hinge screw first), and using a brass rod,
drive it out with gentle taps around the circumference.

Now -- for mine, a 5418 Clausing with a L-00 spindle nose has a
protective collar over the nose which will press on the back of the
flange on the collet adaptor as you unscrew the draw-in ring which
mounts the chucks.

The original spindle in this lathe, a 2-1/4x8 threaded spindle,
had a threaded collar around the spindle nose to both protect the nose
threads and to similarly push on the flange of the collet adaptor.

I don't know whether you have a protector, or whether the D1-4
will apply some outward force when you undo the cams, but at least the
brass rod should work for you. For mine, I would probably turn a 3/4"
brass rod to a long-stemmed mushroom to give easier access to the back of
the closer in the spindle -- but I'm lazy, and the nose protector does a
good job for me.

Enjoy,
DoN.

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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Maybe the brass punch idea is the way to go. I'll have a look to see
if I can tell what the punch would actually be hitting against,,,don't
really want to be banging on the threaded end of the collet holder
even with brass. The only other way I can see is some sort of fork
with a slight taper that would fit in the ~ 1/8" gap between the end
of the spindle nose and the flange on the collet holder.

"oldjag" wrote in message
...
Maybe the brass punch idea is the way to go. I'll have a look to see
if I can tell what the punch would actually be hitting against,,,don't
really want to be banging on the threaded end of the collet holder
even with brass. The only other way I can see is some sort of fork
with a slight taper that would fit in the ~ 1/8" gap between the end
of the spindle nose and the flange on the collet holder.
My sense is that a fork would be more likely to do damage than a brass rod,
but I wouldn't bet on it either way.

Don Young

On Jan 11, 6:43*pm, oldjag wrote:
Maybe the brass punch idea is the way to go. *I'll have a look to see
if I can tell what the punch would actually be hitting against,,,don't
really want to be banging on the threaded end of the collet holder
even with brass. *The only other way I can see is some sort of fork
with a slight taper that would fit in the ~ 1/8" gap between the end
of the spindle nose and the flange on the collet holder.

I have used the "fork" concept on a number of occasions on Clausing
5914 lathes I have had reason to use (and now own). I think of them as
slotted wedges, and generally use a pair of them to get a more
equalized force on the spindle and the backside of the collet adaptor
flange. On some of the Clausing machines with spindle nose protectors
for the L-00 spindle, the threads wear enough (or maybe someone has
removed some material from the front of the protector) so that you
can't really get much force on the back of the collet adaptor before
you run out of thread at the spindle nut. A shallow wedge angle is
best, and if you are a careful worker on the bandsaw, that is a fast
and easy way to make them. Mine are aluminum, but brass would
certainly work.

Make sure you have an appropriate catch-place for the collet adaptor.
Sometimes they pop out a foot (or two), depending on how tightly the
tapers have been mated.

Keywords:
In article , matt wrote:
On Jan 11, 6:43=A0pm, oldjag wrote:
Maybe the brass punch idea is the way to go. =A0I'll have a look to see
if I can tell what the punch would actually be hitting against,,,don't
really want to be banging on the threaded end of the collet holder
even with brass. =A0The only other way I can see is some sort of fork
with a slight taper that would fit in the ~ 1/8" gap between the end
of the spindle nose and the flange on the collet holder.

I have used the "fork" concept on a number of occasions on Clausing
5914 lathes I have had reason to use (and now own). I think of them as
slotted wedges, and generally use a pair of them to get a more
equalized force on the spindle and the backside of the collet adaptor
flange. On some of the Clausing machines with spindle nose protectors
for the L-00 spindle, the threads wear enough (or maybe someone has
removed some material from the front of the protector) so that you
can't really get much force on the back of the collet adaptor before
you run out of thread at the spindle nut. A shallow wedge angle is
best, and if you are a careful worker on the bandsaw, that is a fast
and easy way to make them. Mine are aluminum, but brass would
certainly work.

Make sure you have an appropriate catch-place for the collet adaptor.
Sometimes they pop out a foot (or two), depending on how tightly the
tapers have been mated.

If I have something hollow on the lathe that I don't want dropped on the
ways like this, I put an aluminum or brass rod in the tail stock chuck &
slide it up into the hollow. I mostly use this if I'm cutting off rings,
but it also works for removing a collet adapter.

Doug White

For over 50 years I have worked in shops where we just took a bar of stock
and gave to collet holder a solid tap. First take the collet tube out. Bar
can be 5/8 dia or whatever. Catch the collet holder in your hand. Done.
I've never seen any damage to the collet holder or the machine by anyone
doing this. And have used steel, alum and brass bars to do this.
Jim

On 2008-01-12, oldjag wrote:
Maybe the brass punch idea is the way to go. I'll have a look to see
if I can tell what the punch would actually be hitting against,,,don't
really want to be banging on the threaded end of the collet holder
even with brass.

No threads to worry about. The collet adaptor is a sleeve with
a flange. The OD of the sleeve is a taper to match that of the spindle,
Morse on some machines (MT 4-1/2 on my L-00 spindle Clausing),
proprietary for some other machines.

The threads are in two places:

1) Male threads on the back of the collets themselves, with
possible female threads as well for a depth stop to be fitted to
the collet.

2) Female threads on the collet end of the drawtube, which you
should pull out of the spindle before trying to drive. If you
have a lever style closer, you'll probably need to pull a hinge
pin (which is on my system a stripper bolt) to pull the closer
clear. I then flip the lever over, and put the screw back
through it to keep it out of the way behind the headstock. The
screw has a threaded section, but I've never had a nut on it.
Gravity holds it in place when in service, and no nut means that
it is easier to pull the drawtube out.

As I mentioned before, the nose protector on the L-00 (and on
threaded spindle noses is often used to extract the adaptor, though a
recent communication with Royal supports the brass drive rod instead,
especially with the aluminum spindle nose protector for the L-00.

Is there a chance that something could be made thin enough to
take the place of a nose protector for your camlock (D-?) spindle? And
if so, can the cams be rotate in such a way as to force it to separate
from the nose, so it can extract the adaptor?

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Keywords:
In article , "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2008-01-12, oldjag wrote:
Maybe the brass punch idea is the way to go. I'll have a look to see
if I can tell what the punch would actually be hitting against,,,don't
really want to be banging on the threaded end of the collet holder
even with brass.

No threads to worry about. The collet adaptor is a sleeve with
a flange. The OD of the sleeve is a taper to match that of the spindle,
Morse on some machines (MT 4-1/2 on my L-00 spindle Clausing),
proprietary for some other machines.

The threads are in two places:

1) Male threads on the back of the collets themselves, with
possible female threads as well for a depth stop to be fitted to
the collet.

2) Female threads on the collet end of the drawtube, which you
should pull out of the spindle before trying to drive. If you
have a lever style closer, you'll probably need to pull a hinge
pin (which is on my system a stripper bolt) to pull the closer
clear. I then flip the lever over, and put the screw back
through it to keep it out of the way behind the headstock. The
screw has a threaded section, but I've never had a nut on it.
Gravity holds it in place when in service, and no nut means that
it is easier to pull the drawtube out.

As I mentioned before, the nose protector on the L-00 (and on
threaded spindle noses is often used to extract the adaptor, though a
recent communication with Royal supports the brass drive rod instead,
especially with the aluminum spindle nose protector for the L-00.

Is there a chance that something could be made thin enough to
take the place of a nose protector for your camlock (D-?) spindle? And
if so, can the cams be rotate in such a way as to force it to separate
from the nose, so it can extract the adaptor?

I've been thinking of a different approach for a while, but haven't had
time to build it. The advantage would be that I wouldn't have to remove
the draw tube to pop out the collet adapter. The idea is to make a "slap
hammer" with a split brass "hook" to catch on the back end of the collet
adapter. The rod through the "hooks" would have a thin section that
would allow the hooks to close in enough to slide in through the adpater.
The rod would then taper to a fat enough cross section to force the
hooks out, just before the hammer part hits them. I'm not sure I'm
describing this clearly. Let's try some ASCII art:

---
| |
| ------- -------
| \--------------------/ |
| |
| | - Center Rod Piece
| /--------------------\ |
| -------- -------
| |
---
^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Hammer Fat Taper Thin Handle

---
| |
| ------
| | - Top Sliding "Hook" (Jaw)
--------

--------
| | - Bottom Sliding "Hook" (Jaw)
| ------
| |
---

The two "hooks" would be connected so they stayed together horizontally,
but could slide apart vertically when they hit the tapered bit. They
could be spring loaded to come together over the thin part of the rod
automatically. The tapered section would be a lot shallower taper than
the ASCII drawing shows.

It might be better if the center bit had a square cros section to keep
the jaws lined up. I haven't worked out all the details, but I think it
should work pretty well. The center rod should probably be steel, and
the hammer & jaws could be brass. The OD of the hammer should be small
enough to fit inside the draw tube. The hooks/jaws could be sort of
spool shaped to have a lip that catches on the outside of the collet
adapter so they don't go in too far.

This all probably seems like overkill to a lot of people, but it struck
me as a fun project. Some folks like to make little steam engines, I
like to build gadgets (when I have the time).

Doug White

On 2008-01-13, Doug White wrote:
Keywords:
In article , "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2008-01-12, oldjag wrote:
Maybe the brass punch idea is the way to go. I'll have a look to see
if I can tell what the punch would actually be hitting against,,,don't
really want to be banging on the threaded end of the collet holder
even with brass.

No threads to worry about. The collet adaptor is a sleeve with
a flange. The OD of the sleeve is a taper to match that of the spindle,
Morse on some machines (MT 4-1/2 on my L-00 spindle Clausing),
proprietary for some other machines.

[ ... ]

Is there a chance that something could be made thin enough to
take the place of a nose protector for your camlock (D-?) spindle? And
if so, can the cams be rotate in such a way as to force it to separate
from the nose, so it can extract the adaptor?

I've been thinking of a different approach for a while, but haven't had
time to build it. The advantage would be that I wouldn't have to remove
the draw tube to pop out the collet adapter. The idea is to make a "slap
hammer" with a split brass "hook" to catch on the back end of the collet

[ ... ]

This all probably seems like overkill to a lot of people, but it struck
me as a fun project. Some folks like to make little steam engines, I
like to build gadgets (when I have the time).

Why not make a pair of hooks pointing inwards to grip the flange
instead? You've got a 1/8" gap under the flange of the adaptor, so that
would work. That way, you aren't hooking on the surfaces which matter
(though with brass hooks, I guess that it won't matter.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Keywords:
In article , "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2008-01-13, Doug White wrote:
Keywords:
In article , "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:
On 2008-01-12, oldjag wrote:
Maybe the brass punch idea is the way to go. I'll have a look to see
if I can tell what the punch would actually be hitting against,,,don't
really want to be banging on the threaded end of the collet holder
even with brass.

No threads to worry about. The collet adaptor is a sleeve with
a flange. The OD of the sleeve is a taper to match that of the spindle,
Morse on some machines (MT 4-1/2 on my L-00 spindle Clausing),
proprietary for some other machines.

[ ... ]

Is there a chance that something could be made thin enough to
take the place of a nose protector for your camlock (D-?) spindle? And
if so, can the cams be rotate in such a way as to force it to separate
from the nose, so it can extract the adaptor?

I've been thinking of a different approach for a while, but haven't had
time to build it. The advantage would be that I wouldn't have to remove
the draw tube to pop out the collet adapter. The idea is to make a "slap
hammer" with a split brass "hook" to catch on the back end of the collet

[ ... ]

This all probably seems like overkill to a lot of people, but it struck
me as a fun project. Some folks like to make little steam engines, I
like to build gadgets (when I have the time).

Why not make a pair of hooks pointing inwards to grip the flange
instead? You've got a 1/8" gap under the flange of the adaptor, so that
would work. That way, you aren't hooking on the surfaces which matter
(though with brass hooks, I guess that it won't matter.

I thought about that, but I can't get the hammer behind them. This means
that over time the hooks will probably deform more than the hooks I
envision for the original design. It would work, and as you point out,
they could be steel & you wouldn't risk damaging the taper in the
adapter. My lathe (an Emco Maier Super 11) has a bit more space behind
the adapter than the Clausing, so it would actually work much better on
my lathe because I could put significant metal into the hooks. There's
actually enough space to rig up some sort of camming arrangement to pop
the adapter out without any banging. That would be easier on the
bearings.

More food for thought while I try to find time to work on it.

Thanks for the feedback.

Doug White

On 2008-01-13, Doug White wrote:
Keywords:
In article , "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2008-01-13, Doug White wrote:
Keywords:
In article , "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

[ ... ]

Is there a chance that something could be made thin enough to
take the place of a nose protector for your camlock (D-?) spindle? And
if so, can the cams be rotate in such a way as to force it to separate
from the nose, so it can extract the adaptor?

I've been thinking of a different approach for a while, but haven't had
time to build it. The advantage would be that I wouldn't have to remove
the draw tube to pop out the collet adapter. The idea is to make a "slap
hammer" with a split brass "hook" to catch on the back end of the collet

[ ... ]

This all probably seems like overkill to a lot of people, but it struck
me as a fun project. Some folks like to make little steam engines, I
like to build gadgets (when I have the time).

Why not make a pair of hooks pointing inwards to grip the flange
instead? You've got a 1/8" gap under the flange of the adaptor, so that
would work. That way, you aren't hooking on the surfaces which matter
(though with brass hooks, I guess that it won't matter.

I thought about that, but I can't get the hammer behind them. This means
that over time the hooks will probably deform more than the hooks I
envision for the original design. It would work, and as you point out,
they could be steel & you wouldn't risk damaging the taper in the
adapter.

O.K. If you want a serious project, turn a cylinder with the ID
equal to the diameter of the collet adaptor behind the flange, then with
a boring bar turn the ID after the thickness of the gap before the
flange of a mounted collet adaptor to a little more than the OD of the
flange. Drill and tap the center for a screw-in steel bar. Perhaps
bevel or round the edge away from the headstock side. This makes a
C-shaped hook to pull on the flange.

Then thread a steel rod to fit that center hole, and turn a
smaller piece as a nut on the far end of the rod. Turn up a brass
cylinder (probably knurled) which is bored to slide freely on the rod.
You now have a side hammer all external to the spindle.

Then take it to a mill, and mill an opening on one side to allow
it to slip over the collet adaptor's flange from the side. Once it is
on, slide the hammer to pop out and control the collet adaptor's flight.

My lathe (an Emco Maier Super 11) has a bit more space behind
the adapter than the Clausing, so it would actually work much better on
my lathe because I could put significant metal into the hooks. There's
actually enough space to rig up some sort of camming arrangement to pop
the adapter out without any banging. That would be easier on the
bearings.

Agreed. (Hmm ... you could make something which would screw
into the end of the drawtube and which would press on the back of the
collet adaptor. You could use the leverage of the closer mechanism to
pop out the adaptor -- but this would still mean removing and
re-installing the drawtube and lever mechanism. (While I do leave the
drawtube and lever in place sometimes while working in chucks, there are
other times when I need the full diameter of the spindle bore. For
example I have several lengths of hex 12L14 which is just the maximum
size hex which will fit through the bore, making it a nice stock to feed
through the spindle and work with chucks to minimize the waste stock.
You don't need extra for holding while you're working, because it is
just more stock in the chuck which will get its turn to be machined into
a part.

More food for thought while I try to find time to work on it.

Good Luck.

Thanks for the feedback.

You're welcome.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---