Just sold my Lincoln Tombstone (AC + DC) welder at a real good price using
Craigslist. Seems like every time I wanted to join two pieces of metal, the
wire feed welder was handier. Total use of tombstone in 20 years was less
than 1/2 hour!!

There was one instance when I was trying to braze a broken hunk of cast iron
for my portable cement mixer (round indexing thingie that holds the drum in
position). My son came by and told me "since it's no an important part why
don't I simply just zap it with the stick welder". As stupid as that
sounds, it worked and has lasted about 15 years now.

Here's what I own:

Acetylene Oxygen setup
300 amp wire feed welder
Miller 250 TIG welder
Lincoln Tombstone welder

I'm just a hobbyist and not a good welder. I got the tombstone back in the
days when you had to learn how to flip your helmet and do 5 other things at
the same time to strike an arc. Naturally (25 years ago) I used the A/O
more often. Then (building 300 ft. ± of metal fencing) I got hooked on wire
feed and bought a used unit. I bought the TIG so that I could learn and
also do aluminum.

Question:

Everything else being equal (all my welders are on wheels, easy access, they
all take the same plug etc.) how and why do you guys decide for which welder
to reach? I'm talking, for example, 8-10 inches of non-structural weld on
mild steel. Why would you ever reach for the "stick welder" option and
start chipping slag? Are there inherent advantages to stick?

All replies appreciated,

Ivan Vegvary (who still has 15± pounds of old, old electrodes)

I am not any sort of expert, but I like stick because I know that if
the joint looks like it spans both sides, there is fusion.

i

Ivan Vegvary wrote:
Just sold my Lincoln Tombstone (AC + DC) welder at a real good price using
Craigslist. Seems like every time I wanted to join two pieces of metal, the
wire feed welder was handier. Total use of tombstone in 20 years was less
than 1/2 hour!!

There was one instance when I was trying to braze a broken hunk of cast iron
for my portable cement mixer (round indexing thingie that holds the drum in
position). My son came by and told me "since it's no an important part why
don't I simply just zap it with the stick welder". As stupid as that
sounds, it worked and has lasted about 15 years now.

Here's what I own:

Acetylene Oxygen setup
300 amp wire feed welder
Miller 250 TIG welder
Lincoln Tombstone welder

I'm just a hobbyist and not a good welder. I got the tombstone back in the
days when you had to learn how to flip your helmet and do 5 other things at
the same time to strike an arc. Naturally (25 years ago) I used the A/O
more often. Then (building 300 ft. ± of metal fencing) I got hooked on wire
feed and bought a used unit. I bought the TIG so that I could learn and
also do aluminum.

Question:

Everything else being equal (all my welders are on wheels, easy access, they
all take the same plug etc.) how and why do you guys decide for which welder
to reach? I'm talking, for example, 8-10 inches of non-structural weld on
mild steel. Why would you ever reach for the "stick welder" option and
start chipping slag? Are there inherent advantages to stick?

All replies appreciated,

Ivan Vegvary (who still has 15± pounds of old, old electrodes)


As we all know.......
Welding is the melting of metal components together.
So what technique you use should be dictated by the application of the
finished job.
So if you cant afford a breakdown of your joint you have to use the
safest welding method.
Leaving tig aside for the moment, the safest welding is stick.
Why? because you can see and control the size of the molten weld pool.
All the wire feed welding ive seen doesnt give you this option
for the home/hobby/ welder without xray testing etc,
To be sure of the strength you want in your joint you have to do a test
piece and then test it to destruction Ie bend it through 180 degrees
and it should not break the weld..
thats the only safe way for a home hobby welder to get it right.
Tig is also the melting of metal but under an inert gassheild.
A much neater and accurate weld than stick, as well as being suited
for aluminium stainless titanium etc.
Hope this helps.

"Ivan Vegvary" wrote:

Question:

Everything else being equal (all my welders are on wheels, easy access, they
all take the same plug etc.) how and why do you guys decide for which welder
to reach? I'm talking, for example, 8-10 inches of non-structural weld on
mild steel. Why would you ever reach for the "stick welder" option and
start chipping slag? Are there inherent advantages to stick?

I go for the wirefeed at work unless I need to use some special rod then I
use the tig configured for stick welding.

Wes

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:32:27 GMT, Ted Frater
wrote:

snip
Leaving tig aside for the moment, the safest welding is stick.
Why? because you can see and control the size of the molten weld pool.
All the wire feed welding ive seen doesnt give you this option
for the home/hobby/ welder without xray testing etc,
snip

Have you ever used a commercial MIG running say .035 hard
wire and CO2-Argon mix?

That is my forte and welder of choice for anything
in-position and of steel composition. I've never had any
problem watching the molten pool and controlling its size
(shrug).

I can easily weld a 3/8 inch butt joint in a single pass. I
would want a backing plate for a single pass though. I can
turn the same set-up down and do a decent job welding thin
stuff too. If I take the time to change the wire (seldom,
too lazy), contact tip and feed rollers, then even thinner
stuff is possible.

This is the only MIG I have ever used. Never had the chance
to play with one of the little ones. Mine is a Millermatic
200 (200 amp @ 60% duty cycle). For most any home shop it
can kick some butt .

If Ivan really has a 300 amp MIG, that would be my choice
for most common steel work.

I have stick too, mainly for odd-ball metals that I could
buy a few special electrodes for and out of position work. I
don't have a TIG

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Everything else being equal (all my welders are on wheels, easy access, they
all take the same plug etc.) how and why do you guys decide for which welder
to reach?
I got a Lincoln Square-Wave TIG 300 a couple years ago, and I'll NEVER
go BACK to stick. I have had trouble with the fumes, even when I weld
outdoors. Well, with TIG, I can weld INDOORS, with just a little
ventilation, and have NO problems, because there's no flux smoke.
I can also weld things you can't do with stick. Although I'm still a
real klutz with it, and still burn holes in things, I can get MUCH more
consistent results because I can SEE what I'm doing. Maybe the
auto-dark helmet is a major help, too. You can use one of these for
stick, of course, but the smoke keeps you from getting close enough to
see what you need to see, and you can't see clearly through it all.

Jon

I have a similar setup but a bit smaller

Miller Sync 200
Lincoln mig pack 15 (175A fcaw and mig)
Oxy/Acet (But my O2 tank is a bit small)

Is it a bench job, is it something other than steel...... TIG

is it outdoors or is the position Wonky FCAW (Portability)

Is it cutting then Oxy

the only time i might use stick is if i had a very thick weld to do
and i would use the synchrowave as the power source.

if the job falls theought he cracks in my earlier choices (Outdoor and
weird metal for example) then i consider it beyond my ability and
tools for now

On Nov 14, 1:07 pm, "Ivan Vegvary" wrote:
Just sold my Lincoln Tombstone (AC + DC) welder at a real good price using
Craigslist. Seems like every time I wanted to join two pieces of metal, the
wire feed welder was handier. Total use of tombstone in 20 years was less
than 1/2 hour!!

There was one instance when I was trying to braze a broken hunk of cast iron
for my portable cement mixer (round indexing thingie that holds the drum in
position). My son came by and told me "since it's no an important part why
don't I simply just zap it with the stick welder". As stupid as that
sounds, it worked and has lasted about 15 years now.

Here's what I own:

Acetylene Oxygen setup
300 amp wire feed welder
Miller 250 TIG welder
Lincoln Tombstone welder

I'm just a hobbyist and not a good welder. I got the tombstone back in the
days when you had to learn how to flip your helmet and do 5 other things at
the same time to strike an arc. Naturally (25 years ago) I used the A/O
more often. Then (building 300 ft. ± of metal fencing) I got hooked on wire
feed and bought a used unit. I bought the TIG so that I could learn and
also do aluminum.

Question:

Everything else being equal (all my welders are on wheels, easy access, they
all take the same plug etc.) how and why do you guys decide for which welder
to reach? I'm talking, for example, 8-10 inches of non-structural weld on
mild steel. Why would you ever reach for the "stick welder" option and
start chipping slag? Are there inherent advantages to stick?

All replies appreciated,

Ivan Vegvary (who still has 15± pounds of old, old electrodes)

"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
news:PPG_i.8017$ds.161@trndny09...
Just sold my Lincoln Tombstone (AC + DC) welder at a real good price using
Craigslist. Seems like every time I wanted to join two pieces of metal,
the wire feed welder was handier. Total use of tombstone in 20 years was
less than 1/2 hour!!

There was one instance when I was trying to braze a broken hunk of cast
iron for my portable cement mixer (round indexing thingie that holds the
drum in position). My son came by and told me "since it's no an important
part why don't I simply just zap it with the stick welder". As stupid as
that sounds, it worked and has lasted about 15 years now.

Here's what I own:

Acetylene Oxygen setup
300 amp wire feed welder
Miller 250 TIG welder
Lincoln Tombstone welder

I'm just a hobbyist and not a good welder. I got the tombstone back in
the days when you had to learn how to flip your helmet and do 5 other
things at the same time to strike an arc. Naturally (25 years ago) I used
the A/O more often. Then (building 300 ft. ± of metal fencing) I got
hooked on wire feed and bought a used unit. I bought the TIG so that I
could learn and also do aluminum.

Question:

Everything else being equal (all my welders are on wheels, easy access,
they all take the same plug etc.) how and why do you guys decide for which
welder to reach? I'm talking, for example, 8-10 inches of non-structural
weld on mild steel. Why would you ever reach for the "stick welder"
option and start chipping slag? Are there inherent advantages to stick?

All replies appreciated,

Ivan Vegvary (who still has 15± pounds of old, old electrodes)


Penetration. The purpose of welding is to create a molten crucible between
(usually) two parent metal pieces and the molten electrode. To raise all
three above melting point in a controlled crucible, then moving on. As the
molten puddle solidifies, it unites the formerly three into one.

That's about as simple as I can put it.

With wirefeed, sometimes it doesn't work as well because a lot of the heat
is soaked up by the thicker pieces of parent metal, and a weld that looks
pretty is actually just laying on top of the parent metal. With flux core
wire, the arc is different, and does actually melt the parent metal. This
is why you use standard MIG for thin stuff, and FCAW for thick.

What you want is for the pieces to stay together. You can "Gorilla Weld" a
piece like the mixer you mentioned, and it stays. Is that a good weld?
Yes. Is it a technically good weld? No.

Weldor skill has something to do with it, too. Stick welding is harder than
MIG. Whatever you use, if you end up with a weld that is safe and looks
acceptable, that's good. From there, it gets into aesthetics, and from
there, it gets into engineering and strength and safety.

Steve

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:07:43 GMT, "Ivan Vegvary"
wrote:

Just sold my Lincoln Tombstone (AC + DC) welder at a real good price using
Craigslist. Seems like every time I wanted to join two pieces of metal, the
wire feed welder was handier. Total use of tombstone in 20 years was less
than 1/2 hour!!

There was one instance when I was trying to braze a broken hunk of cast iron
for my portable cement mixer (round indexing thingie that holds the drum in
position). My son came by and told me "since it's no an important part why
don't I simply just zap it with the stick welder". As stupid as that
sounds, it worked and has lasted about 15 years now.

Here's what I own:

Acetylene Oxygen setup
300 amp wire feed welder
Miller 250 TIG welder
Lincoln Tombstone welder

I'm just a hobbyist and not a good welder. I got the tombstone back in the
days when you had to learn how to flip your helmet and do 5 other things at
the same time to strike an arc. Naturally (25 years ago) I used the A/O
more often. Then (building 300 ft. ± of metal fencing) I got hooked on wire
feed and bought a used unit. I bought the TIG so that I could learn and
also do aluminum.

Question:

Everything else being equal (all my welders are on wheels, easy access, they
all take the same plug etc.) how and why do you guys decide for which welder
to reach? I'm talking, for example, 8-10 inches of non-structural weld on
mild steel. Why would you ever reach for the "stick welder" option and
start chipping slag? Are there inherent advantages to stick?

All replies appreciated,

Ivan Vegvary (who still has 15± pounds of old, old electrodes)

I have not burned one stick since I got a Millermatic 210 MIG. If I
had stuff 3/4" or thicker to weld I'd probably go with stick, but
that hasn't happened since I got the MIG.

As others have noted, it's easy to get "pretty" welds with no strength
with MIG, but one who is reasonably proficient with stick should
have no trouble making good welds with wirefeed.

There's more "art" and control with stick, so one can just start
welding and adapt. With MIG, I often do a practice weld on scraps of
similar thicknesses to get the machine and my speed set up tits, then
have at the job. Total job time is considerably less, with no smoke
and no slag.

Someone said you can't see the puddle with MIG. You certainly can if
it's running right. You can't make a good weld with any machine if
you can't manage the puddle.

For very precise work, particularly small stuff, the TIG is my first
choice. Slow, but very controllable and very versatile. As one wag
put it, you can about weld dog**** to windowglass with TIG. Autogenous
welds (no filler) are easy to do with TIG, and sometimes they look
really nice with ample strength for the application.

I use O/A only for brazing, silverbrazing, and welding of thin
aluminum sheetmetal.

Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Just sold my Lincoln Tombstone (AC + DC) welder at a real good price using
Craigslist. Seems like every time I wanted to join two pieces of metal, the
wire feed welder was handier. Total use of tombstone in 20 years was less
than 1/2 hour!!

There was one instance when I was trying to braze a broken hunk of cast iron
for my portable cement mixer (round indexing thingie that holds the drum in
position). My son came by and told me "since it's no an important part why
don't I simply just zap it with the stick welder". As stupid as that
sounds, it worked and has lasted about 15 years now.

Here's what I own:

Acetylene Oxygen setup
300 amp wire feed welder
Miller 250 TIG welder
Lincoln Tombstone welder

I'm just a hobbyist and not a good welder. I got the tombstone back in the
days when you had to learn how to flip your helmet and do 5 other things at
the same time to strike an arc. Naturally (25 years ago) I used the A/O
more often. Then (building 300 ft. ± of metal fencing) I got hooked on wire
feed and bought a used unit. I bought the TIG so that I could learn and
also do aluminum.

Question:

Everything else being equal (all my welders are on wheels, easy access, they
all take the same plug etc.) how and why do you guys decide for which welder
to reach? I'm talking, for example, 8-10 inches of non-structural weld on
mild steel. Why would you ever reach for the "stick welder" option and
start chipping slag? Are there inherent advantages to stick?

I have a smallish Miller Thunderbolt stick welder and a Millermatic 250 MIG
welder, plus others. I am building a steel beam stairway right now, and on
the upper floors of the structure it would be nearly impossible to get the
large MIG welder up there, so I carried up my little stick welder. Lots of
wind up there, no problem with stick.

Also recently we were erecting some steel I-beams on site. We had to weld
20 feet in the air on 12" I-beams. Easy to just add a length of welding lead
to the stick welder and pull the leads up there - very difficult to extend
the MIG gun.

I almost always use the MIG welder, though.

GWE

"Grant Erwin" wrote in
message ...
Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Just sold my Lincoln Tombstone (AC + DC) welder at a
real good price using Craigslist. Seems like every
time I wanted to join two pieces of metal, the wire
feed welder was handier. Total use of tombstone in
20 years was less than 1/2 hour!!

Use to own a tomstone box too.

Sold it about 10 years ago. Mostly because I got real
tired of moving that beast. My moves are real estate
related, done very well.

I now own...

AC-225C lincoln smaller version of the tomstone...only
use 6130, 1/8 and 5/32 rods.

The Mig... Lincoln SP-85. Wire is .030, mixed gas
bottle.

The tig is that cheap red harbor freight box, it does
okay with 1/8 stick too. The tig part is a little
flakey, as its a strike type tig. Might get a real tig
one of these days.

All of this is home use....

xman

I suppose it's a matter just like so many others in the welding trade:
what fits your hand best is the process to use.

To me, stick welding is the basic process, it's what I consider first.
I'm comfortable with it, I like the way things happen and I find it's
the process that offers the most freedom to approach the job as I wish.

John

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:21:23 -0500, JohnM wrote:

I suppose it's a matter just like so many others in the welding trade:
what fits your hand best is the process to use.

To me, stick welding is the basic process, it's what I consider first.
I'm comfortable with it, I like the way things happen and I find it's
the process that offers the most freedom to approach the job as I wish.

John

I have an O/A set and a cheap wirefeed. Used to have a big AC Only
"buzz box" but I sold it, Didn't use it a lot and it took up a lot of
space. I got the wire-feed in exchange for some work on a neighbour's
Honda GL - have not used it much - much more comfortable with the old
stick welder. Or the O/A for light stuff and brazing.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:54:57 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:



Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Everything else being equal (all my welders are on wheels, easy access, they
all take the same plug etc.) how and why do you guys decide for which welder
to reach?
I got a Lincoln Square-Wave TIG 300 a couple years ago, and I'll NEVER
go BACK to stick. I have had trouble with the fumes, even when I weld
outdoors. Well, with TIG, I can weld INDOORS, with just a little
ventilation, and have NO problems, because there's no flux smoke.
I can also weld things you can't do with stick. Although I'm still a
real klutz with it, and still burn holes in things, I can get MUCH more
consistent results because I can SEE what I'm doing. Maybe the
auto-dark helmet is a major help, too. You can use one of these for
stick, of course, but the smoke keeps you from getting close enough to
see what you need to see, and you can't see clearly through it all.

Jon

Try weldiing on a rusty trailer frame in the rain with a 25mph wind
blowing.

G

I keep stick, MIG and TIG on hand...as each has their uses,

Gunner

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:58:26 -0800, "xmradio"
wrote:


I now own...

AC-225C lincoln smaller version of the tomstone...only
use 6130, 1/8 and 5/32 rods.

The Mig... Lincoln SP-85. Wire is .030, mixed gas
bottle.

The tig is that cheap red harbor freight box, it does
okay with 1/8 stick too. The tig part is a little
flakey, as its a strike type tig. Might get a real tig
one of these days.

All of this is home use....

xman

Airco Squarewave 300
Set up for tig and stick
Permanantly parked next to the tig table

Miller Dialarc 250 (stick)
permantly under the 5x8 welding table, with 100' eads

Airco (Esab) Squarewave 250
set up for tig and stick (my loaner)

Miller Dialarc 250 HF (tig)
(out on loan to a guy building a sand rail)

Dan-Mig 140/200 Mig

Airco PhaseArc 300 (3ph, 300 amp Mig)
(on loan to a fabrication co.)

Lincoln Weldpac 100 (truck machine)

Hobart CyberTig 2 700 amp DC Tig/Stick
(3ph, currently in storage)

Marquette 115vt buzz box (stick)
(utterly ****ty machine)

Mostly for home use..kinda sorta

Gunner

Gunner wrote:

Try weldiing on a rusty trailer frame in the rain with a 25mph wind
blowing.

FCAW?

Fitch

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:27:53 -0500 in rec.crafts.metalworking, Fitch R.
Williams wrote,
Gunner wrote:

Try weldiing on a rusty trailer frame in the rain with a 25mph wind
blowing.

FCAW?

Spare tire carrier.

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:01:47 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm,
David Harmon quickly quoth:

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:27:53 -0500 in rec.crafts.metalworking, Fitch R.
Williams wrote,
Gunner wrote:

Try weldiing on a rusty trailer frame in the rain with a 25mph wind
blowing.

FCAW?

Spare tire carrier.

And we have a WINNER! ROTFLSHIAPMP!

--
After all, it is those who have a deep and real inner life who
are best able to deal with the irritating details of outer life.
-- Evelyn Underhill

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:27:53 -0500, Fitch R. Williams
wrote:

Gunner wrote:

Try weldiing on a rusty trailer frame in the rain with a 25mph wind
blowing.

FCAW?

Stick rules with rusty metal, particularly outdoors. I've found that
even black millscale on new HRS can significantly affect the quality
of wire welds, GMAW or FCAW. With stick you only need strike an arc
once per stick, while wire (at least until entering spray-transfer
regime, which smaller machines never do) must strike repeatedly and
often though the user may not be aware of it. That nice "bacon frying"
sound when a wire welder is set right and running well is the arc
repeatedly striking at a consistent rate. Wire works best with clean
metal.

I also do not find stick to be particularly slow, as I usuallyspend a
lot more time on pre-welding and post-welding activities. (cutting,
fitting, grinding, brushing etc)

i

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:57:53 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:

Wire is nice for a lot of short welds, yes. But wire has its limitations
cold lap, penetration, and lack of fusion.

I don't think a properly set-up MIG has any real trouble
with penetration. I can blow holes through 3/8 inch steel
plate if I crank mine up towards the high end. Don F. has
said pretty much the same thing and his MIG welder is just a
bit newer model than mine. I've had several guy's look at
stuff I welded up with it and say "I didn't know you could
weld stuff like than with a MIG".

Cold lap is simply not watching your puddle good.

If you lived a bit closer Steve I could give you a
demonstration and let you play around with it a bit. Seeing
is believing? ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

"Ignoramus3971" wrote in message
...
I also do not find stick to be particularly slow, as I usuallyspend a
lot more time on pre-welding and post-welding activities. (cutting,
fitting, grinding, brushing etc)

i

If you want to run fifty feet of weld, wire is the way to go. But, with
distortion who would want to weld fifty feet at a time?

Wire is nice for a lot of short welds, yes. But wire has its limitations
cold lap, penetration, and lack of fusion.

Every job requires an assessment of different things to choose the right
welder. One size does not fit all.

Steve

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:57:53 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:

Wire is nice for a lot of short welds, yes. But wire has its limitations
cold lap, penetration, and lack of fusion.

I don't think a properly set-up MIG has any real trouble
with penetration. I can blow holes through 3/8 inch steel
plate if I crank mine up towards the high end. Don F. has
said pretty much the same thing and his MIG welder is just a
bit newer model than mine. I've had several guy's look at
stuff I welded up with it and say "I didn't know you could
weld stuff like than with a MIG".

Cold lap is simply not watching your puddle good.

If you lived a bit closer Steve I could give you a
demonstration and let you play around with it a bit. Seeing
is believing? ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

I agree, Leon. It's just that it's not a good idea to tell newbies that
it's totally okay. They might go out and weld on a trailer, or something
that is critical. An experienced welder would know, as you and I do that
watching the puddle to make sure the parent metals are melted is the thing
to do. And how to position the metal so that a big crucible of molten metal
can be created easily and effectively. But a newbie might not.

So, rather than have something like that on my mind when I read about a
trailer taking out the minivan and the three kids in Sheboygan, I am
reluctant to give hard and fast recommendations. That's why I said that
each job requires the weldor to choose the proper welder.

For me, when I want to weld something and KNOW it's three times stronger
than it needs to be, I use 7018. But most people can't run a stick of it
with two weeks practice. I have four x ray certs with it. So, I don't tell
them they need to use 7018 even though it's probably the thing to use on
some heavier applications.

Welding is fun. From there, if you are welding anything structural,
roadworthy, or just plain has to stay together under hard use, you enter
another dimension.

These MIGs today are a heck of a thing for the average hobbyist. Anyone
considering getting one, please do yourself a favor and buy only Blue or
Red.

Steve

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:57:53 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Ignoramus3971" wrote in message
m...
I also do not find stick to be particularly slow, as I usuallyspend a
lot more time on pre-welding and post-welding activities. (cutting,
fitting, grinding, brushing etc)

i

If you want to run fifty feet of weld, wire is the way to go. But, with
distortion who would want to weld fifty feet at a time?

Not me!

Wire is nice for a lot of short welds, yes. But wire has its limitations
cold lap, penetration, and lack of fusion.

Those are more limitations of the guy using it than of the method or
technology. Any method can make both good and bad welds. I
stick-welded (7018) my 4000 lb trailer because my little 110-volt MIG
box wasn't nearly up to that job -- but if I were building another I'd
use the Millermatic 210 wire machine with no hesitation at all. Decent
fit, clean metal, enough heat, watch the puddle = welds every bit as
good as stick welds -- without slag if not done outdoors in wind where
FCAW is necessary.

Wire is also very nice indoors because of the freedom from clouds of
smoke and gasses.

Every job requires an assessment of different things to choose the right
welder. One size does not fit all.

I definitely agree with that, since I have TIG, MIG, stick and O/A at
my disposal. But assessment is real easy if one only has once choice
avaialable: do it, or have it done? When in doubt, if strength or
safety is a question, have it done!

On 2007-11-17, Don Foreman wrote:
Those are more limitations of the guy using it than of the method or
technology. Any method can make both good and bad welds. I
stick-welded (7018) my 4000 lb trailer because my little 110-volt MIG
box wasn't nearly up to that job -- but if I were building another I'd
use the Millermatic 210 wire machine with no hesitation at all. Decent
fit, clean metal, enough heat, watch the puddle = welds every bit as
good as stick welds -- without slag if not done outdoors in wind where
FCAW is necessary.

Don, is that 4,000 gross? Got any pictures?

i

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:57:53 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Ignoramus3971" wrote in message
om...
I also do not find stick to be particularly slow, as I usuallyspend a
lot more time on pre-welding and post-welding activities. (cutting,
fitting, grinding, brushing etc)

i

If you want to run fifty feet of weld, wire is the way to go. But, with
distortion who would want to weld fifty feet at a time?

Not me!

Wire is nice for a lot of short welds, yes. But wire has its limitations
cold lap, penetration, and lack of fusion.

Those are more limitations of the guy using it than of the method or
technology. Any method can make both good and bad welds. I
stick-welded (7018) my 4000 lb trailer because my little 110-volt MIG
box wasn't nearly up to that job -- but if I were building another I'd
use the Millermatic 210 wire machine with no hesitation at all. Decent
fit, clean metal, enough heat, watch the puddle = welds every bit as
good as stick welds -- without slag if not done outdoors in wind where
FCAW is necessary.

Wire is also very nice indoors because of the freedom from clouds of
smoke and gasses.

Every job requires an assessment of different things to choose the right
welder. One size does not fit all.

I definitely agree with that, since I have TIG, MIG, stick and O/A at
my disposal. But assessment is real easy if one only has once choice
avaialable: do it, or have it done? When in doubt, if strength or
safety is a question, have it done!


I had the ancestor of the 210, the MillerMatic 200. Best damn welding
machine I ever owned. All I did was change the guns. Would like to know
where the old boy is these days. Probably working every day.

And yup, go to the .045 wire or FCAW and it would do most anything.

Steve

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 17:28:36 -0600, Ignoramus16741
wrote:

On 2007-11-17, Don Foreman wrote:
Those are more limitations of the guy using it than of the method or
technology. Any method can make both good and bad welds. I
stick-welded (7018) my 4000 lb trailer because my little 110-volt MIG
box wasn't nearly up to that job -- but if I were building another I'd
use the Millermatic 210 wire machine with no hesitation at all. Decent
fit, clean metal, enough heat, watch the puddle = welds every bit as
good as stick welds -- without slag if not done outdoors in wind where
FCAW is necessary.

Don, is that 4,000 gross? Got any pictures?

i

Gross perhaps as in gross exaggeration. I really regard it as a 3000
GVW trailer because that's what the tires are good for and I put a
3000-lb springset on it, (40 bux at Northern) but I know my neighbor
has loaded it considerably heavier than that with no problems.

I probably do have photos, but they're in an archive somewhere. It's
just a 5 x 9 utility trailer with stake (removable) sides, nothing
fancy. It can tilt, but we've never done it. I was going to put a
hydraulic tilt jack and damper on it but never got around to it. The
axle has drum brakes but we never got around to hooking them up to
anything. Tongue is 4" x 4" square tube, I think the frame and bed
cross supports (2) are 2" x 4" rect tube. I once saw another
remarkably similar to it at the steel yard, and the owner said he
routinely loaded his to 4000 lb.

On 2007-11-18, Don Foreman wrote:
Don, is that 4,000 gross? Got any pictures?

Gross perhaps as in gross exaggeration. I really regard it as a 3000
GVW trailer because that's what the tires are good for and I put a
3000-lb springset on it, (40 bux at Northern) but I know my neighbor
has loaded it considerably heavier than that with no problems.

Very nice.

I probably do have photos, but they're in an archive somewhere. It's
just a 5 x 9 utility trailer with stake (removable) sides, nothing
fancy. It can tilt, but we've never done it. I was going to put a
hydraulic tilt jack and damper on it but never got around to it.

You know, I thought about making my bed tilting, but in the end
decided against it for safety reasons. Right now the bed is attached
to frame in, maybe, 15 points or so, but with tilt there would be only
two points.

The axle has drum brakes but we never got around to hooking them up
to anything. Tongue is 4" x 4" square tube, I think the frame and
bed cross supports (2) are 2" x 4" rect tube. I once saw another
remarkably similar to it at the steel yard, and the owner said he
routinely loaded his to 4000 lb.

That seems like a nice practical trailer. Mine is approximately 6x10
feet, IIRC. Works for me. My brakes are electric.

i

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 00:42:22 -0600, Ignoramus16741
wrote:

On 2007-11-18, Don Foreman wrote:
Don, is that 4,000 gross? Got any pictures?

Gross perhaps as in gross exaggeration. I really regard it as a 3000
GVW trailer because that's what the tires are good for and I put a
3000-lb springset on it, (40 bux at Northern) but I know my neighbor
has loaded it considerably heavier than that with no problems.

Very nice.

I probably do have photos, but they're in an archive somewhere. It's
just a 5 x 9 utility trailer with stake (removable) sides, nothing
fancy. It can tilt, but we've never done it. I was going to put a
hydraulic tilt jack and damper on it but never got around to it.

You know, I thought about making my bed tilting, but in the end
decided against it for safety reasons. Right now the bed is attached
to frame in, maybe, 15 points or so, but with tilt there would be only
two points.

My 5x10 utility trailer was a tilt. Those two 3/4" bolts holding the
frame to the tounge started bothering me, so I pulled em to check em.
Found both of them nearly worn half way through. No bushings or
bearings....just steel to steel.

So I replaced em with grade 8s, then drilled another pair of 1/2"
holes through the frame and tounge, and bolted everything down tight
and solid. I was thinking about welding them together..but...someday I
may want to tilt.
Scary **** when you pull those bolts and find only 3/8 of material
left, considering the loads Ive had on it.

The axle has drum brakes but we never got around to hooking them up
to anything. Tongue is 4" x 4" square tube, I think the frame and
bed cross supports (2) are 2" x 4" rect tube. I once saw another
remarkably similar to it at the steel yard, and the owner said he
routinely loaded his to 4000 lb.

That seems like a nice practical trailer. Mine is approximately 6x10
feet, IIRC. Works for me. My brakes are electric.

i
Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:38:42 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:

snip
I agree, Leon. It's just that it's not a good idea to tell newbies that
it's totally okay. They might go out and weld on a trailer, or something
that is critical. An experienced welder would know, as you and I do that
watching the puddle to make sure the parent metals are melted is the thing
to do. And how to position the metal so that a big crucible of molten metal
can be created easily and effectively. But a newbie might not.

So, rather than have something like that on my mind when I read about a
trailer taking out the minivan and the three kids in Sheboygan, I am
reluctant to give hard and fast recommendations. That's why I said that
each job requires the weldor to choose the proper welder.

For me, when I want to weld something and KNOW it's three times stronger
than it needs to be, I use 7018. But most people can't run a stick of it
with two weeks practice. I have four x ray certs with it. So, I don't tell
them they need to use 7018 even though it's probably the thing to use on
some heavier applications.

Welding is fun. From there, if you are welding anything structural,
roadworthy, or just plain has to stay together under hard use, you enter
another dimension.

These MIGs today are a heck of a thing for the average hobbyist. Anyone
considering getting one, please do yourself a favor and buy only Blue or
Red.

Thanks for the good follow-up Steve. I knew you were a
welder, now I know you were just being cautious. Welding
items/stuff that can cause serious injury when it
discombobulates shouldn't be take lightly.

I tell you what though, if I crank up my machine high enough
to weld 3/8 inch in single pass you end up with one hell of
a puddle. I would guess that the metal is solidifying
anywhere from 1 to 2 inches behind where you are currently
welding too. You need some pretty good positioning and
thought given to what you are doing or you'll get a bum
weld. Several passes at lower settings is a whole lot more
controllable.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 17:38:35 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:

I had the ancestor of the 210, the MillerMatic 200. Best damn welding
machine I ever owned. All I did was change the guns. Would like to know
where the old boy is these days. Probably working every day.

And yup, go to the .045 wire or FCAW and it would do most anything.

That is the machine I have Steve. Bought it new in ~1988. It
has never given me a lick of trouble. It is a nice feeling
to be welding hard for ~20 minutes or so before the cooling
fan kicks on and then only runs for a bit. Sometimes I get
the whole job done and the fan never comes on

I had it fired up a few weeks ago after several years of
rest to fix a neighbors mower deck. No different than the
last time I used it. Need to push myself away from the
computer more often I guess...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Nov 14, 6:07 pm, "Ivan Vegvary" wrote:

Question:

Everything else being equal (all my welders are on wheels, easy access, they
all take the same plug etc.) how and why do you guys decide for which welder
to reach? I'm talking, for example, 8-10 inches of non-structural weld on
mild steel. Why would you ever reach for the "stick welder" option and
start chipping slag? Are there inherent advantages to stick?

All replies appreciated,

Ivan Vegvary (who still has 15± pounds of old, old electrodes)

Tomorrow I will be welding some pipe to make something like a swing
set that I can use with a come-a-long to lift stuff. I have a wire
feed welder and a TIG welder, but expect I will be using an AC stick
buzz box. Why? Why not. I would have to change the wire to use the
MIG, and the stick welding is slightly faster ( IMO ) than TIG. Also
don't have to turn on and off the gas and water.

Dan

After a Computer crash and the demise of civilization, it was learned
Gunner Asch wrote on Sun, 18 Nov 2007
00:47:13 -0800 in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 00:42:22 -0600, Ignoramus16741
wrote:

On 2007-11-18, Don Foreman wrote:
Don, is that 4,000 gross? Got any pictures?

Gross perhaps as in gross exaggeration. I really regard it as a 3000
GVW trailer because that's what the tires are good for and I put a
3000-lb springset on it, (40 bux at Northern) but I know my neighbor
has loaded it considerably heavier than that with no problems.

Very nice.

I probably do have photos, but they're in an archive somewhere. It's
just a 5 x 9 utility trailer with stake (removable) sides, nothing
fancy. It can tilt, but we've never done it. I was going to put a
hydraulic tilt jack and damper on it but never got around to it.

You know, I thought about making my bed tilting, but in the end
decided against it for safety reasons. Right now the bed is attached
to frame in, maybe, 15 points or so, but with tilt there would be only
two points.

My 5x10 utility trailer was a tilt. Those two 3/4" bolts holding the
frame to the tounge started bothering me, so I pulled em to check em.
Found both of them nearly worn half way through. No bushings or
bearings....just steel to steel.

So I replaced em with grade 8s, then drilled another pair of 1/2"
holes through the frame and tounge, and bolted everything down tight
and solid. I was thinking about welding them together..but...someday I
may want to tilt.
Scary **** when you pull those bolts and find only 3/8 of material
left, considering the loads Ive had on it.

Well, obviously, the bolts you had in it were too big. I mean, if
it will hold with half of a 3/4 bolt gone, that's to much bolt in the
first place.

pyotr

p.s. "Try wait" - it just occurred to me, though, that if the bolts had
been 3/8, they would have worn through before you checked them. You'll
need to run the Preferred Maintenance according to the schedule, in that
case.
Or just go back to using the 3/4 bolts, and over engineer things.
:-)

--
pyotr filipivich
"Quemadmoeum gladuis neminem occidit, occidentis telum est. "
Lucius Annaeus Seneca, circa 45 AD
(A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.)

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 00:47:13 -0800, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 00:42:22 -0600, Ignoramus16741 wrote:
On 2007-11-18, Don Foreman wrote:

I probably do have photos, but they're in an archive somewhere. It's
just a 5 x 9 utility trailer with stake (removable) sides, nothing
fancy. It can tilt, but we've never done it. I was going to put a
hydraulic tilt jack and damper on it but never got around to it.

You know, I thought about making my bed tilting, but in the end
decided against it for safety reasons. Right now the bed is attached
to frame in, maybe, 15 points or so, but with tilt there would be only
two points.

IMHO to do a tongue-pivot tilt you really need an A-Frame style
tongue, and depending on how you do it that would leave three or four
attachment points - the two pivot points at the framerails, and the
two saddle points where the tongue A meets the body front apron or the
frame front crossmember. You could leave the straight tongue you
welded into the chassis structure as a stub for the tilt cylinder to
attach to.

My 5x10 utility trailer was a tilt. Those two 3/4" bolts holding the
frame to the tounge started bothering me, so I pulled em to check em.
Found both of them nearly worn half way through. No bushings or
bearings....just steel to steel.

So I replaced em with grade 8s, then drilled another pair of 1/2"
holes through the frame and tounge, and bolted everything down tight
and solid. I was thinking about welding them together..but...someday I
may want to tilt.
Scary **** when you pull those bolts and find only 3/8 of material
left, considering the loads Ive had on it.

Gunner: But someday you may *need* to tilt, there's a huge
difference. You get a load on there that for some reason has no other
way to be safely unloaded than to be tilted and slid off.

Next time you are messing with it, take out the bolts and tip it a
bit, then hog out the holes and weld in bushings. Then you can apply
some serious clamping force with those bolts, and the friction of the
frame arms against the tongue will keep the whole thing from moving.

If you try clamping down hard as it is (with the holes unbushed) you
can distort the tongue - and that crease in the normally nice straight
load-bearing sidewall of the tongue tubing will create a starting
point for a bending failure of the tongue. Hitting a sharp bump and
having the tongue fold under is not a good thing.

The axle has drum brakes but we never got around to hooking them up
to anything. Tongue is 4" x 4" square tube, I think the frame and
bed cross supports (2) are 2" x 4" rect tube. I once saw another
remarkably similar to it at the steel yard, and the owner said he
routinely loaded his to 4000 lb.

Don:

While you aren't in a "Gotta do it right now, pay any price" rush, I
would go look for a surge control tongue or an Electric-Hydraulic
brake controller for your trailer. It's not the dead-weight load the
trailer can handle, it's the GCWR of dynamic mass that your tow
vehicle can get stopped quickly and safely. And with smaller cars and
SUVs comes smaller brakes.

It's no fun to need to panic stop and feel the trailer start dancing
the watusi behind you. BT, DT. If you ever have to do it while going
around a corner, you are seriously screwed - it'll jackknife you and
if you're very lucky you'll end up out in the cornfield, if not you'll
be in oncoming traffic, picking ARMCO or K-Rail out of your teeth, or
following Wile E. Coyote off that conveniently placed cliff...

The Electric-Hydraulic ones are nifty - it's a little pump that
applies the hydraulic trailer brakes with standard electric brake
controller signals (*but the controller has to be rated to drive them,
the old ones aren't) and a breakaway system with backup battery that
clamps them down hard just in case. Note that there are separate
designs for drum or disc trailer brakes - residual pressure valves for
drum.

-- Bruce --

On 2007-11-23, Bruce L Bergman wrote:
Gunner: But someday you may *need* to tilt, there's a huge
difference. You get a load on there that for some reason has no other
way to be safely unloaded than to be tilted and slid off.

What I do for this is, I drive my truck's rear wheels up on makeshift
ramps. That raises my trailer tongue quite a bit. I did that
recently. It pretty much requires a 4WD.

i

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:00:29 -0600, Ignoramus3971
wrote:
On 2007-11-23, Bruce L Bergman wrote:

Gunner: But someday you may *need* to tilt, there's a huge
difference. You get a load on there that for some reason has no other
way to be safely unloaded than to be tilted and slid off.

What I do for this is, I drive my truck's rear wheels up on makeshift
ramps. That raises my trailer tongue quite a bit. I did that
recently. It pretty much requires a 4WD.

Hey, if you built it as a solid trailer that works too. (4WD not
required as long as the ramps are sturdy and you don't floor the gas.)

-- Bruce --

On 2007-11-24, Bruce L Bergman wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:00:29 -0600, Ignoramus3971
wrote:
On 2007-11-23, Bruce L Bergman wrote:

Gunner: But someday you may *need* to tilt, there's a huge
difference. You get a load on there that for some reason has no other
way to be safely unloaded than to be tilted and slid off.

What I do for this is, I drive my truck's rear wheels up on makeshift
ramps. That raises my trailer tongue quite a bit. I did that
recently. It pretty much requires a 4WD.

Hey, if you built it as a solid trailer that works too. (4WD not
required as long as the ramps are sturdy and you don't floor the gas.)



I guess, but I found climbing ramps smoother with 4wd in low...

i