I've wanted to 'get into' metal working for quite a while but just haven't
found the time.

My current experience is limited to a being a former farm boy who can use a
cutting torch and welder well enough to keep a grader blade or bush hog
running but I haven't done any real machine work.

Now if I had the money I'd find a school and take a few classes then buy a
room full of machines and go at it but I don't so. . .

I have been reading online about how to build a multimachine using old
engine blocks (because they are machined where the cylinders are at 90
degrees from the heads) as the base.

http://opensourcemachine.org/node/2

Sounds like a cheap way to get started as well as a good leaning experience.
In the machine info it talks about casting your own parts and following that
I have been reading up on casting and building your own foundry.

Now with all that said the questions for ya'll:

1) What books would you suggest for a pre-newbie?

2) Does starting off building a machine sound like a good place for a
pre-newbie to start or should I try to scrap up enough money to buy a small
used lathe and/or milling machine and/or multiemachine?

3) Does anyone here cast their own parts? If so how hard was it to learn?
3a) Did you build your own furnace? On a scale of 1-100 how would you rate
the difficulty of doing it?

no spam wrote:
I've wanted to 'get into' metal working for quite a while but just
haven't found the time.

My current experience is limited to a being a former farm boy who can
use a cutting torch and welder well enough to keep a grader blade or
bush hog running but I haven't done any real machine work.

Now if I had the money I'd find a school and take a few classes then
buy a room full of machines and go at it but I don't so. . .

I have been reading online about how to build a multimachine using old
engine blocks (because they are machined where the cylinders are at 90
degrees from the heads) as the base.

http://opensourcemachine.org/node/2

Sounds like a cheap way to get started as well as a good leaning
experience. In the machine info it talks about casting your own parts
and following that I have been reading up on casting and building
your own foundry.
Now with all that said the questions for ya'll:

1) What books would you suggest for a pre-newbie?

2) Does starting off building a machine sound like a good place for a
pre-newbie to start or should I try to scrap up enough money to buy a
small used lathe and/or milling machine and/or multiemachine?

3) Does anyone here cast their own parts? If so how hard was it to
learn? 3a) Did you build your own furnace? On a scale of 1-100 how
would you rate the difficulty of doing it?

In a word , Gingery . This guy wrote an entire series of books starting
with a charcoal foundry in a five gallon bucket and ending up with a room
full of machine tools . If you've got hand skills , you can do it . If
you're a klutz , buy a multimachine from Horror Fright or Cummins and get
your feet wet .
I sure wish I had room for a mill ...
--

Snag aka OSG #1
'90 Ultra , "Strider"
The road goes on forever ...
none to one to reply

"Snag" wrote in
:

snip
In a word , Gingery . This guy wrote an entire series of books
starting
with a charcoal foundry in a five gallon bucket and ending up with a
room full of machine tools . If you've got hand skills , you can do it
. If you're a klutz , buy a multimachine from Horror Fright or Cummins
and get your feet wet .
I sure wish I had room for a mill ...

Been there, done that and have all the books to prove it I started out
wanting to do his entire series but with three kids and a busy life in
general I wound up buying a couple of Harbor Freight machines just so I
could do something other than read about the things I wanted to play with.

I still want to build his shaper but that problably wont happen for a
decade or so until I can retire and have alot more free time.

Right now I'm working on a small/cheap cnc machine I found on the
instructables.com website. Very simple design using pipe and relatively
cheap. Game plan is to use it to rough out pinewood derby cars for the
kids to finish. I figured that since I do most of the rough cutting anyway
that this will still be hands on and the fact that I can teach some cad to
the girls will be a plus.

Bill

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:35:26 -0500, Bill
wrote:
snip
I still want to build his shaper but that problably wont happen for a
decade or so until I can retire and have alot more free time.
snip
A word of warning. Don't assume that your health, eyesight, etc.
will be adequate, when you retire and get the time. Do the stuff
that you want now while you can.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
============
Merchants have no country.
The mere spot they stand on
does not constitute so strong an attachment
as that from which they draw their gains.

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826),
U.S. president. Letter, 17 March 1814.

On Oct 12, 11:15 am, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:35:26 -0500, Bill
wrote:
snipI still want to build his shaper but that problably wont happen for a
decade or so until I can retire and have alot more free time.

snip
A word of warning. Don't assume that your health, eyesight, etc.
will be adequate, when you retire and get the time. Do the stuff
that you want now while you can.

Unka' George [George McDuffee]
============
Merchants have no country.
The mere spot they stand on
does not constitute so strong an attachment
as that from which they draw their gains.

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826),
U.S. president. Letter, 17 March 1814.

Boy do these words ring true....

I can't count how many people I have known who collected equipment for
years for their retirement and either died, suffered health problems,
divorces, bankruptcies, etc. that resulted in them losing the dream of
"doing it some day".

Really, really sad.

There is much to be said for doing your hobby while you can...many,
many times you won't be able to when you get older.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Oct 12, 11:15 am, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:35:26 -0500, Bill
wrote:
snipI still want to build his shaper but that problably wont
happen for a
decade or so until I can retire and have alot more free time.

snip
A word of warning. Don't assume that your health, eyesight, etc.
will be adequate, when you retire and get the time. Do the stuff
that you want now while you can.

Unka' George [George McDuffee]
============
Merchants have no country.
The mere spot they stand on
does not constitute so strong an attachment
as that from which they draw their gains.

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826),
U.S. president. Letter, 17 March 1814.

Boy do these words ring true....

I can't count how many people I have known who collected equipment for
years for their retirement and either died, suffered health problems,
divorces, bankruptcies, etc. that resulted in them losing the dream of
"doing it some day".

Really, really sad.

There is much to be said for doing your hobby while you can...many,
many times you won't be able to when you get older.

TMT

And I for one am a lucky man whose wife understands this . It helps that
some of my projects are for her . Like the knurled aluminum knob on her
toaster oven ...

--

Snag aka OSG #1
'90 Ultra , "Strider"
The road goes on forever ...
none to one to reply

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:15:52 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, F.
George McDuffee quickly quoth:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:35:26 -0500, Bill
wrote:
snip
I still want to build his shaper but that problably wont happen for a
decade or so until I can retire and have alot more free time.
snip
A word of warning. Don't assume that your health, eyesight, etc.
will be adequate, when you retire and get the time. Do the stuff
that you want now while you can.

Amen. Turn off the TV and get those projects done. You'll lead a
happier life, I guarantee.

My next step (treat) is learning to scuba dive.

--
Reading well is one of the great pleasures that solitude can afford you.
-- Harold Bloom, O Magazine, April 2003

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:42:07 GMT, "no spam" wrote:

I've wanted to 'get into' metal working for quite a while but just haven't
found the time.

My current experience is limited to a being a former farm boy who can use a
cutting torch and welder well enough to keep a grader blade or bush hog
running but I haven't done any real machine work.

Now if I had the money I'd find a school and take a few classes then buy a
room full of machines and go at it but I don't so. . .

I have been reading online about how to build a multimachine using old
engine blocks (because they are machined where the cylinders are at 90
degrees from the heads) as the base.

http://opensourcemachine.org/node/2

Sounds like a cheap way to get started as well as a good leaning experience.
In the machine info it talks about casting your own parts and following that
I have been reading up on casting and building your own foundry.

Now with all that said the questions for ya'll:

1) What books would you suggest for a pre-newbie?

I'll second another poster's suggestion of using the Gingery books.
I'm about 75% done building his metal lathe, and the instructions are
very easy to follow. It's been on a back burner over the summer
months, but I'll be finishing it up this fall.

2) Does starting off building a machine sound like a good place for a
pre-newbie to start or should I try to scrap up enough money to buy a small
used lathe and/or milling machine and/or multiemachine?

Well, if you can build the machine you'll learn to use it in the
process, so there is that. I'm slowly and steadily tooling up to
making myself some big iron, but it's not something that a guy can do
overnight on the cheap.

3) Does anyone here cast their own parts? If so how hard was it to learn?

No. I intended to with the Gingery method, but I don't like the idea
of making tools from aluminum, so I made a forge and bought an anvil
instead. Making the lathe from steel using his plans works for me
because I have access to a mill at work.

3a) Did you build your own furnace? On a scale of 1-100 how would you rate
the difficulty of doing it?

The forge I built is very similar to a Gingery style melting furnace
in a lot of ways, only it lays on it's side and is for an entirely
different purpose.

As far as the construction goes, I built the body, which is just a
piece of sheetmetal with a couple of feet on it and an inlet tube on
one side to clamp the burner into in about 2 hours. I'd give it a
difficulty of 25/100- with 1 being tightening a loose screw, and 100
being making an engine from scratch. It's pretty easy, really. A
slip roll and a welder is all that is needed, and you can skip the
slip roll if you've got a big piece of pipe or even a good steel
bucket.

The burner I made is a forced-air type that burns propane, and was
made with about $35-40 in pipe from the hardware store. Most of it
just screws together, and the trickiest part is drilling a centered
hole through the back side of a cast-iron pipe elbow and welding a
copper tube through it. The copper tube is the gas injector, and the
cast elbow is where the air flows through from the blower. I say it's
the trickiest part because it is, but it's really not that hard.

For the lining, I tracked down a place that let me have an open
partial bag of 1" thick Kaowool that they had in their warehouse. I
wanted to buy it, but evidently the paperwork would have been a
headache for the guy that owned the place (they were an industrial
supplier, and would have had to not only set up an account for me, but
sell me a minium of a full roll for some reason I didn't quite
understand), so he just gave it to me.

You'll find that the hardest part of building anything is just getting
started. Once you've got the materials on hand, a determined guy can
build anything- and it's often a lot easier than you ever expected.

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 06:30:07 -0500, Prometheus
wrote:


Sounds like a cheap way to get started as well as a good leaning experience.
In the machine info it talks about casting your own parts and following that
I have been reading up on casting and building your own foundry.

Now with all that said the questions for ya'll:

1) What books would you suggest for a pre-newbie?

I'll second another poster's suggestion of using the Gingery books.
I'm about 75% done building his metal lathe, and the instructions are
very easy to follow. It's been on a back burner over the summer
months, but I'll be finishing it up this fall.


If you want to get started machining..buy a used machine and learn to
use it. They can be had for little or no money. Ask me how I know...

If you want a hobby of casting and building machinery..then
yes..Gingery is good.

By getting a machine thats already done.. you will be making chips in
short order....75% and finishing it up this fall (maybe) is simply
drawing out the learning curve.

Gunner

no spam wrote:

Now with all that said the questions for ya'll:

1) What books would you suggest for a pre-newbie?

This newsgroup is a very good "book". One has to look past the
off-topic stuff, but you have obviously done that. Actually, the OT
posts can be a little entertaining, though can can interfere with
finding the real traffic.


2) Does starting off building a machine sound like a good place for a
pre-newbie to start or should I try to scrap up enough money to buy a small
used lathe and/or milling machine and/or multiemachine?

I second the used machine suggestion. You might even buy one new; just
expect the tooling to double the price of a small one. Get an R8 taper;
then tooling will likely follow you to another machine if you find the need.

I have a round column mill-drill, and am generally very happy with it.
My only gripe is that the vertical feed lock is not as robust as I would
like. I would like to back away and read drawings while the power feed
does its thing, but I can't do that "in Z", at least not with anything
beyond very light cuts. The problem is that light cuts generally imply
I am near final dimension (or past it - grrrr! - still kicking myself
from yesterdayg), so that is not a time to ignore what is happening.

That said, it is a hell of a machine. Benchtop knees have their points,
but cross-travel isn't one of them. I am skeptical that square or
dovetail column mill-drills stack up a knee - some assert that they do.
I will leave that to the experts.

Machines are heavy - get an engine hoist. You should be able to score a
new one with folding legs for $150 or so (last time I looked), and will
not regret it.

Round column mill-drills particularly will cost you some setup work if
you have to change the head position. An ER collet chuck and collets
can be big help, reducing the vertical space needed to change tools;
they make it quick and easy too, which has grown on me. Some R8 collets
are nice to have on hand too, as removing the chuck might get enough
space to avoid a head movement. In my experience, do not expect ER
collets to grab a continuous range of diameters, but it's ok IMHO. You
can do a lot with 3/8, 1/2, 5/16 (IIRC) and 3/4 collets. You will want
a good drill chuck anyway. Buy a good one (Jacobs probably) and an
import taper for it. If you need to drill holes for which you do not
have collets, just change to the drill chuck.

So what's so bad about moving the head on a round column machine? Not
much; it basically means you have to break out the edge finder again to
reset the dials. However, if you center over a rotary table, it can be
a bit more problematic if the work blocks what you used to center.

There are tradeoffs, but getting a starter machine that uses R8 tooling
will be a good move.

Good luck!

Bill

no spam wrote:

I've wanted to 'get into' metal working for quite a while but just haven't
found the time.

My current experience is limited to a being a former farm boy who can use a
cutting torch and welder well enough to keep a grader blade or bush hog
running but I haven't done any real machine work.

Now if I had the money I'd find a school and take a few classes then buy a
room full of machines and go at it but I don't so. . .

I have been reading online about how to build a multimachine using old
engine blocks (because they are machined where the cylinders are at 90
degrees from the heads) as the base.

http://opensourcemachine.org/node/2

Sounds like a cheap way to get started as well as a good leaning experience.
In the machine info it talks about casting your own parts and following that
I have been reading up on casting and building your own foundry.

Now with all that said the questions for ya'll:

1) What books would you suggest for a pre-newbie?

2) Does starting off building a machine sound like a good place for a
pre-newbie to start or should I try to scrap up enough money to buy a small
used lathe and/or milling machine and/or multiemachine?

3) Does anyone here cast their own parts? If so how hard was it to learn?
3a) Did you build your own furnace? On a scale of 1-100 how would you rate
the difficulty of doing it?



THere are many variables involved as to exactly what you want to do.
Building a machine is a big project. There is a lot of good old iron
around that just needs some fixing up and you will have a good rugged
machine to use that will have some value to it if you want to upgrade.
Ive seen a lot of people turn their nose up when looking at a horizontal
mill with a bridgeport head mounted on the over arm. That combination
is probably better than any full bridgeport type mill. More rugged,
power feed in all directions, a facing head that will spin a 6 inch
cutter for any squaring that need to be done. A machine that can face
and bore an engine block, and overall a better buy for less money. You
can pick up a horizontal for scrap price and have a halfway good
machine, IF you reacrape the ways, mount up a bridgeport type head to
the overarm you will have an all around machine that you could even use
for a lathe by putting a center in the overarm support. I had one once
and it worked fine. It was a flat belt thing with an auto transmission
that drove the flat belt to the feeds. It had an M head mounted on it.


John

I'll second another poster's suggestion of using the Gingery books.

The Gingery books are fun reading, if for nothing else than to help
get you in the right mindset...

If you want to get started machining..buy a used machine and learn to
use it. They can be had for little or no money. Ask me how I know...

....but this is the way to go. For one thing, a number of the
components that were cheap in Gingery's time have now gone way up in
price, possibly as much as an import mini-lathe by the time you add in
shipping, unless you're a really good scrounge. And if you're a good
scrounge, you will soon find that the machines themselves aren't that
hard to get. All it really takes is persistence. I have a lathe and
mill in my garage for less that $1k, not including tooling or
delivery. And the lathe will swing 14" and the mill is bridgeport
size Index, considerably more capability than the Gingery tools.

One of these days I still mean to build the shaper, and maybe the
dividing head. But in the mean time, watch the classified ad
magazines, craigslist, and eBay. Heck, just start talking to anybody
that you see selling tools, not everything they have gets advertised,
or will fit in the back of a pickup to end up at the flea market, or
fits out on the shelves of their second hand store. The guy I bought
my mill from parts out machines to sell on ebay because no-one wants
to ship a whole machine. Find a guy like that near you...
--Glenn Lyford

On Oct 11, 2:42 pm, "no spam" wrote:
I've wanted to 'get into' metal working for quite a while but just haven't
found the time.

My current experience is limited to a being a former farm boy who can use a
cutting torch and welder well enough to keep a grader blade or bush hog
running but I haven't done any real machine work.

Now if I had the money I'd find a school and take a few classes then buy a
room full of machines and go at it but I don't so. . .

I have been reading online about how to build a multimachine using old
engine blocks (because they are machined where the cylinders are at 90
degrees from the heads) as the base.

http://opensourcemachine.org/node/2

Sounds like a cheap way to get started as well as a good leaning experience.
In the machine info it talks about casting your own parts and following that
I have been reading up on casting and building your own foundry.

Now with all that said the questions for ya'll:

1) What books would you suggest for a pre-newbie?

2) Does starting off building a machine sound like a good place for a
pre-newbie to start or should I try to scrap up enough money to buy a small
used lathe and/or milling machine and/or multiemachine?

3) Does anyone here cast their own parts? If so how hard was it to learn?
3a) Did you build your own furnace? On a scale of 1-100 how would you rate
the difficulty of doing it?

If you do not have to, please do not try to build your own furnaces. I
have many years experience working on belt furnaces
(www.beltfurnaces.com). The furnace is more than a few heating element
and a belt. It is a complicated system. The furnace could be a
dangerous piece of equipment if you do not do it properly. On 1-100
scale, I would rate it at 90.

Sounds like a cheap way to get started as well as a good leaning
experience.
In the machine info it talks about casting your own parts and following
that
I have been reading up on casting and building your own foundry.

Now with all that said the questions for ya'll:

1) What books would you suggest for a pre-newbie?

I'll second another poster's suggestion of using the Gingery books.
I'm about 75% done building his metal lathe, and the instructions are
very easy to follow. It's been on a back burner over the summer
months, but I'll be finishing it up this fall.


If you want to get started machining..buy a used machine and learn to
use it. They can be had for little or no money. Ask me how I know...

Ok, HOW?

On Oct 15, 6:29 am, Torrey Hills wrote:


If you do not have to, please do not try to build your own furnaces. I
have many years experience working on belt furnaces
(www.beltfurnaces.com). The furnace is more than a few heating element
and a belt. It is a complicated system. The furnace could be a
dangerous piece of equipment if you do not do it properly. On 1-100
scale, I would rate it at 90.

I understand caution, but do consider that this is a group oriented
toward doing things. You post is not likely to dissuade someone from
building a furnance. But you could post things to consider if one
does.

One of my uncles said that he quit asking the corporate attorneys for
advice on whether or not to do something. They always said that it
should not be done. He changed to saying " we are going to do xxxx,
how should we proceed. " So if we are going to build a furnance,
what should we consider and make sure we do in order to be as safe as
possible.

Dan

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:17:09 GMT, "no spam" wrote:

Sounds like a cheap way to get started as well as a good leaning
experience.
In the machine info it talks about casting your own parts and following
that
I have been reading up on casting and building your own foundry.

Now with all that said the questions for ya'll:

1) What books would you suggest for a pre-newbie?

I'll second another poster's suggestion of using the Gingery books.
I'm about 75% done building his metal lathe, and the instructions are
very easy to follow. It's been on a back burner over the summer
months, but I'll be finishing it up this fall.


If you want to get started machining..buy a used machine and learn to
use it. They can be had for little or no money. Ask me how I know...

Ok, HOW?

Start haunting Craigslist. Start driving down the back alleys behind
machine shops and paying attention to the machinery out back.
Read the local ads in your paper, become aquainted with the local
scrap dealers.
Hit a bunch of machine shops and let the owners know you are looking
for old machinery. They often have stuff taking up badly needed floor
space, and they network with other shops. Call up all the machine
repair guys in the phone book, and tell em what you are looking for.
Find out who the other hobby guys are in your area, and network,
network network.

Legwork, and face time with shop owners/recyclers/hobbyists will find
you machines.

http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop

Im poor. I couldnt have afforded to buy all that.

Gunner, Master Scrounger

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:12:39 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


Legwork, and face time with shop owners/recyclers/hobbyists will find
you machines.

http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop

Im poor. I couldnt have afforded to buy all that.


Damn...Im gonna have to update that thing soon....

Gunner

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 11:25:00 -0700, Gunner
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 06:30:07 -0500, Prometheus
wrote:


Sounds like a cheap way to get started as well as a good leaning experience.
In the machine info it talks about casting your own parts and following that
I have been reading up on casting and building your own foundry.

Now with all that said the questions for ya'll:

1) What books would you suggest for a pre-newbie?

I'll second another poster's suggestion of using the Gingery books.
I'm about 75% done building his metal lathe, and the instructions are
very easy to follow. It's been on a back burner over the summer
months, but I'll be finishing it up this fall.


If you want to get started machining..buy a used machine and learn to
use it. They can be had for little or no money. Ask me how I know...

If you want a hobby of casting and building machinery..then
yes..Gingery is good.

Yes- I already know how to machine metal, and I don't have that much
interest in running production parts in my basement, so I guess you
could say that metalworking (at home- not at work) is a hobby of
building machinery for me. At work, it's all about running the parts
as fast as we can to someone else's specs, and if we need equipment,
the boss buys it.

By getting a machine thats already done.. you will be making chips in
short order....75% and finishing it up this fall (maybe) is simply
drawing out the learning curve.

I do have one that's already done, awaiting a little more cleaning and
a new motor. And it's a big old monster. But that isn't the point,
in this case.

What it really comes down to is that I've hit a wall with what I can
afford to purchase as home tooling without taking out loans, and if I
do that, I'll have to find customers with reasonably regular orders to
make the payments on them. I don't really want to do that, as my
still somewhat distant plan is to build enough capacity and have it
all paid for so that I can develop my own machines without having the
pressure of meeting deadlines.

To put that another way, I think it would be rediculously cool to have
a couple of pick-and-place style robots to play with, but I have
neither the money nor a very good reason to have them. So, if I want
them, I'll have to make them- building a lathe, a mill, and some other
equipment is really good practice towards achieving that goal. If it
turns out that I'm any good at it, maybe it'd turn into a business- if
not, it'll be an interesting hobby.

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 22:29:07 -0700, Torrey Hills
wrote:

On Oct 11, 2:42 pm, "no spam" wrote:
I've wanted to 'get into' metal working for quite a while but just haven't
found the time.

My current experience is limited to a being a former farm boy who can use a
cutting torch and welder well enough to keep a grader blade or bush hog
running but I haven't done any real machine work.

Now if I had the money I'd find a school and take a few classes then buy a
room full of machines and go at it but I don't so. . .

I have been reading online about how to build a multimachine using old
engine blocks (because they are machined where the cylinders are at 90
degrees from the heads) as the base.

http://opensourcemachine.org/node/2

Sounds like a cheap way to get started as well as a good leaning experience.
In the machine info it talks about casting your own parts and following that
I have been reading up on casting and building your own foundry.

Now with all that said the questions for ya'll:

1) What books would you suggest for a pre-newbie?

2) Does starting off building a machine sound like a good place for a
pre-newbie to start or should I try to scrap up enough money to buy a small
used lathe and/or milling machine and/or multiemachine?

3) Does anyone here cast their own parts? If so how hard was it to learn?
3a) Did you build your own furnace? On a scale of 1-100 how would you rate
the difficulty of doing it?

If you do not have to, please do not try to build your own furnaces. I
have many years experience working on belt furnaces
(www.beltfurnaces.com). The furnace is more than a few heating element
and a belt. It is a complicated system. The furnace could be a
dangerous piece of equipment if you do not do it properly. On 1-100
scale, I would rate it at 90.

That is indeed a complicated looking furnace- but not much like what
I'm familiar with as far as home casting goes. Usually it's done
with a bucket lined with refractory material and a propane-fueled
burner. Some guys even manage to do it with a waste-oil fuel, though
I'm not that familiar with that method.

A really hardcore guy who wants to do iron casting would probably make
a vertical cupola furnace fueled with coke. More complex than the
bucket, but it's still not rocket science. It's very likely the case
that you're too close to the situation, and are visualising
"state-of-the-art" when "good enough" will do. People have been
casting for a really long time, and if you're not getting hung up on
having a production situation that is better than the Jones's, it's a
realistic and attainable goal for a hobbyist.