I would like to get my late father's military records for the time he spent
in the USAC in WWII. How would I go about that?

Steve

SteveB wrote:

I would like to get my late father's military records for the time he spent
in the USAC in WWII. How would I go about that?

Why post this here?

GWE

SteveB wrote:
I would like to get my late father's military records for the time he spent
in the USAC in WWII. How would I go about that?

Steve


Steve, I will send you the info on getting military records when I get
home and talk to my wife. She just got my Dad's WWII records for our
family archive. It is a fairly simple process as I recall, but it does
entail a couple of faxes, or letters. Be fore warned, there was a fire
at one of the DD's warehouses in the 60's and many records were lost.
There is a gap in my Dad's records because of this.

Greg

SteveB wrote:

I would like to get my late father's military records for the time he spent
in the USAC in WWII. How would I go about that?

Steve


http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/military-personnel/

About five seconds of searching found it.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Greg Postma wrote:

Be fore warned, there was a fire
at one of the DD's warehouses in the 60's and many records were lost.
There is a gap in my Dad's records because of this.

You're lucky. My dad's records were lost entirely. Given he
died when I was a baby, I know virtually nothing about his
service....

Jon

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:39:15 -0500, Greg Postma
wrote:

SteveB wrote:
I would like to get my late father's military records for the time he spent
in the USAC in WWII. How would I go about that?

Steve


Steve, I will send you the info on getting military records when I get
home and talk to my wife. She just got my Dad's WWII records for our
family archive. It is a fairly simple process as I recall, but it does
entail a couple of faxes, or letters. Be fore warned, there was a fire
at one of the DD's warehouses in the 60's and many records were lost.
There is a gap in my Dad's records because of this.

Greg

St, Louis archive fire

Mid 1970s

Gunner

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:30:39 -0700, Grant Erwin
wrote:

SteveB wrote:

I would like to get my late father's military records for the time he spent
in the USAC in WWII. How would I go about that?

Why post this here?

GWE

SteveB is a regular relevant contributor, and it's clear that a number
of vets read this NG. Seems like a reasonable request to me.

Gunner Asch wrote:
Be fore warned, there was a fire
at one of the DD's warehouses in the 60's and many records were lost.
Greg

St, Louis archive fire

Mid 1970s

Gunner
Picky, picky, picky...... what 10 years between friends?

Don Foreman wrote:

SteveB is a regular relevant contributor, and it's clear that a number
of vets read this NG. Â*Seems like a reasonable request to me.

1. The following is the original rec.crafts.metalworking charter,
for reference.

Charter
-------

Charter -- REC.CRAFTS.METALWORKING

The USENET newsgroup, rec.crafts.metalworking, is a newsgroup which
discusses various aspects of working with metal, such as (but not
limited to):

machining, as on a lathe, milling machine, grinder, etc.;
numerical control of such machines;
welding, whether by gas, arc, mig, tig, thermite, or other methods;
Metal joining, whether welding, brazing, soldering, riveting,
screwing, folding, etc. (this section was added during the
discussion)
casting various metals by various methods;
hardening/tempering various metals;
blacksmithing/forging;
spinning and hammer work;
sheet metal work;
jewelry-making;
purchasing and/or reconditioning metalworking tools and machinery;
interesting projects;
books on metal technologies and history;

Example areas of interest:

knife/sword making;
automotive repair;
steam engine (model/scale, though full-sized discussions are
welcome!);
art work, such as bronze castings and sculptures;
gunsmithing;
toolmaking, such as for woodworking, further metalworking, etc.;

While the bulk of the discussion will probably be directed towards
small-scale "home" shops, industrial/production discussions are also
quite welcome.



Nick

Don Foreman wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:30:39 -0700, Grant Erwin
wrote:

SteveB wrote:

I would like to get my late father's military records for the time he spent
in the USAC in WWII. How would I go about that?

Why post this here?

GWE

SteveB is a regular relevant contributor, and it's clear that a number
of vets read this NG. Seems like a reasonable request to me.

Second that. One topic nazi in the group is more than we need as it
is...

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:27:15 -0700, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Greg Postma wrote:

Be fore warned, there was a fire
at one of the DD's warehouses in the 60's and many records were lost.
There is a gap in my Dad's records because of this.

You're lucky. My dad's records were lost entirely. Given he
died when I was a baby, I know virtually nothing about his
service....

Jon

Same here with my Dad's records. I sent in for them (got Dad
to sign the paperwork, this isn't necessary if they are
deceased, duh!) and they found nothing due to the fire.

If you are even mildly curious it is worth trying and
doesn't cost anything more than some time, stamps and lots
of patience.

http://www.archives.gov/veterans/mil...e-records.html

Michael's link should get you to where you want to be too.

If your Dad is deceased you can probably fill out the form
online. Otherwise get the pdf form/file, print it out, fill
it out, sent it in and wait...

They sent me back a quick reply that they had received my
request, the sad news that they couldn't find anything came
a month or two later.

If you know where he lived at the time you maybe able to get
some documents (enlistment, discharge?) from the county
clerks office.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

To those who were helpful, many thanks. To the others, you might want to
look at this newsgroup and all of the talk about athiests, and other topics
right now, and wonder if coming down on me asking a simple question in a
group I KNOW contains ex military people constitutes absolute stuipdity on
your part. I believe you have shown your scorn and disrespect to me and my
late father, a sargeant and a flight engineer in the United State Air Corps
(Army at that time), who flew on bombers in the South Pacific. Nice work
exposing your asses, guys.

If you are TRULY concerned about the quality of the newsgroup and the
practice of sticking to the topic, there are many more threads that you
could go after. But then, I don't believe for a second that was or is your
main concern.

Have a nice day.

Steve

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
SteveB wrote:

I would like to get my late father's military records for the time he
spent in the USAC in WWII. How would I go about that?

Why post this here?

GWE

I don't know, Grant. Because there are vets here? Why do you post some of
the drivellous bull**** you post?

I don't need your permission to do anything, old man. Now buzz off to the
electronic round file.

What a surly unhappy old puke you are.

Steve

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
SteveB wrote:

I would like to get my late father's military records for the time he
spent
in the USAC in WWII. How would I go about that?

Steve


http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/military-personnel/

About five seconds of searching found it.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Thank you, Michael.

Steve

Second that, Leon.

As a Post-Korea AF vet, I was encouraged by the Separation Officer to have
these Discharges and DD 214's placed on file in our county records. In
Pennsylvania, it is done in the "Office of the Register and Recorder". Many
of the records in my county go back to Civil War vets. It must have been a
relatively common practice.

Flash



"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:27:15 -0700, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Greg Postma wrote:

Be fore warned, there was a fire
at one of the DD's warehouses in the 60's and many records were lost.
There is a gap in my Dad's records because of this.

You're lucky. My dad's records were lost entirely. Given he
died when I was a baby, I know virtually nothing about his
service....

Jon

Same here with my Dad's records. I sent in for them (got Dad
to sign the paperwork, this isn't necessary if they are
deceased, duh!) and they found nothing due to the fire.

If you are even mildly curious it is worth trying and
doesn't cost anything more than some time, stamps and lots
of patience.

http://www.archives.gov/veterans/mil...e-records.html

Michael's link should get you to where you want to be too.

If your Dad is deceased you can probably fill out the form
online. Otherwise get the pdf form/file, print it out, fill
it out, sent it in and wait...

They sent me back a quick reply that they had received my
request, the sad news that they couldn't find anything came
a month or two later.

If you know where he lived at the time you maybe able to get
some documents (enlistment, discharge?) from the county
clerks office.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:10:08 +0200, Nick Mueller
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

SteveB is a regular relevant contributor, and it's clear that a number
of vets read this NG. *Seems like a reasonable request to me.

1. The following is the original rec.crafts.metalworking charter,
for reference.

Charter
-------

Charter -- REC.CRAFTS.METALWORKING

The USENET newsgroup, rec.crafts.metalworking, is a newsgroup which
discusses various aspects of working with metal, such as (but not
limited to):

machining, as on a lathe, milling machine, grinder, etc.;
numerical control of such machines;
welding, whether by gas, arc, mig, tig, thermite, or other methods;
Metal joining, whether welding, brazing, soldering, riveting,
screwing, folding, etc. (this section was added during the
discussion)
casting various metals by various methods;
hardening/tempering various metals;
blacksmithing/forging;
spinning and hammer work;
sheet metal work;
jewelry-making;
purchasing and/or reconditioning metalworking tools and machinery;
interesting projects;
books on metal technologies and history;

Example areas of interest:

knife/sword making;
automotive repair;
steam engine (model/scale, though full-sized discussions are
welcome!);
art work, such as bronze castings and sculptures;
gunsmithing;
toolmaking, such as for woodworking, further metalworking, etc.;

While the bulk of the discussion will probably be directed towards
small-scale "home" shops, industrial/production discussions are also
quite welcome.



Nick

And your 50 lines of rejoinder used more bandwidth than the question
and three relevant responses, none of which were rants.

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:10:08 +0200, Nick Mueller
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

SteveB is a regular relevant contributor, and it's clear that a number
of vets read this NG. *Seems like a reasonable request to me.

1. The following is the original rec.crafts.metalworking charter,
for reference.

Charter
-------

Charter -- REC.CRAFTS.METALWORKING

The USENET newsgroup, rec.crafts.metalworking, is a newsgroup which
discusses various aspects of working with metal, such as (but not
limited to):

machining, as on a lathe, milling machine, grinder, etc.;
numerical control of such machines;
welding, whether by gas, arc, mig, tig, thermite, or other methods;
Metal joining, whether welding, brazing, soldering, riveting,
screwing, folding, etc. (this section was added during the
discussion)
casting various metals by various methods;
hardening/tempering various metals;
blacksmithing/forging;
spinning and hammer work;
sheet metal work;
jewelry-making;
purchasing and/or reconditioning metalworking tools and machinery;
interesting projects;
books on metal technologies and history;

Example areas of interest:

knife/sword making;
automotive repair;
steam engine (model/scale, though full-sized discussions are
welcome!);
art work, such as bronze castings and sculptures;
gunsmithing;
toolmaking, such as for woodworking, further metalworking, etc.;

While the bulk of the discussion will probably be directed towards
small-scale "home" shops, industrial/production discussions are also
quite welcome.



Nick

I'm always happy to help a fellow Veteran when I can - no matter where
they post.

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:01:13 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:

I would like to get my late father's military records for the time he spent
in the USAC in WWII. How would I go about that?

Steve



Veteran's Affairs? Not sure if they would be able to help ya, but it
might be worth a try.

Cheers,

Al

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:10:08 +0200, Nick Mueller
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

SteveB is a regular relevant contributor, and it's clear that a number
of vets read this NG. *Seems like a reasonable request to me.

1. The following is the original rec.crafts.metalworking charter,
for reference.

Charter
(snip)

Perhaps this might help:
http://users.goldengate.net/~dforeman/Loschtaste/

SteveB wrote:
To those who were helpful, many thanks. To the others, you might want to
look at this newsgroup and all of the talk about athiests, and other topics
right now, and wonder if coming down on me asking a simple question in a
group I KNOW contains ex military people constitutes absolute stuipdity on
your part. I believe you have shown your scorn and disrespect to me and my
late father, a sargeant and a flight engineer in the United State Air Corps
(Army at that time), who flew on bombers in the South Pacific. Nice work
exposing your asses, guys.

If you are TRULY concerned about the quality of the newsgroup and the
practice of sticking to the topic, there are many more threads that you
could go after. But then, I don't believe for a second that was or is your
main concern.

Have a nice day.

Steve




Steve:
Regarding your reply to those who were opposed to your asking the
question, GOOD FOR YOU! As you said, with all the BS that has been on
here lately, none of them has any right to question your legitimate
question. Hang in there. Good luck on the search.

Jim Chandler
MSgt, USAF, (Ret)

SNIP - Damit!?!

"flash" wrote in message
...
Second that, Leon.

As a Post-Korea AF vet, I was encouraged by the Separation Officer to have
these Discharges and DD 214's placed on file in our county records. In
Pennsylvania, it is done in the "Office of the Register and Recorder".
Many of the records in my county go back to Civil War vets. It must have
been a relatively common practice.

Flash


Your post has been archived in a special folder. My father was born and
raised in Ludlow, Pa. What a coincidence.

Steve

SteveB wrote:

Thank you, Michael.


You're welcome. Also, there should be a "Veteran's Service Officer"
(Any local DAV group is a good place to start) in your county who can
help with any questions. In my county the DAV has one, and the county
has a small staff to help with Veteran's issues.

To those who's records were reported lost, some are available,
again. They were smoke damaged, but not burnt. Its taken a long time
for them to clean them and recover the data. Try asking again. All it
will cost you is a stamp.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Nick Mueller wrote:


Nothing that matters, except to Nazis.


Nick


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Don Foreman wrote:

And your 50 lines of rejoinder used more bandwidth than the question
and three relevant responses, none of which were rants.

It took you 50 lines of quoting to prove how little you're standing behind
your bandwidth-complaint. :-))

Nick

Phil Stein wrote:

I'm always happy to help a fellow Veteran when I can - no matter where
they post.

Now let's see. I'm making a little legal modification to your statement:

| I'm always happy to help a $person when I can - no matter where they post.

Now let's insert some new words for $person. That wouldn't make a huge
change, because there are so many people here that have so many different
interests (just a few metalworking, it seems).

Here is a list of words to insert. Hope there are some that show you what
nonsense you told:
* gay
* islamist
* republican
* nazi
* environmentalist
* lesbian
* prostitutes
* militarist
* democrat
* ...

Just stick to the charter. This way you don't get upset even if it is a
$person because they all talk about the same subject they all enjoy:
METALWOKING!

Nick

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 09:06:05 +0200, Nick Mueller
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

And your 50 lines of rejoinder used more bandwidth than the question
and three relevant responses, none of which were rants.

It took you 50 lines of quoting to prove how little you're standing behind
your bandwidth-complaint. :-))

Nick

Not quite, but close. Frankly, Herr Mueller, I don't care about
bandwidth and I don't mind your militance and vigilance. I mostly
agree with you. I thought Grant's inquiry was appropriate and
reasonable, he being a long-time member and all and given that there
are several other frequent contribtors who are U.S. vets.

I also dislike all the political crap though I have less problem
ignoring such noise than you seem to have. I did get sucked into a
devious troll from TMT, live and learn. I'll not make that error
twice.

This group was much more relevant and interesting some years ago,
Altovoz and all.

Valued and respected contributors like Fitch Williams, Jerry Martes
John Stephenson, Albrecht and several others have sinced bailed
out. I do understand why.

I'm a bit dissapointed that neiher you nor anyone else enjoyed my
playful joke re the metal delete key, but that's my problem. This
group has changed a lot.

**** happens. Oh well.

Having fun is job 1.

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 09:30:36 +0200, Nick Mueller
wrote:

Phil Stein wrote:

I'm always happy to help a fellow Veteran when I can - no matter where
they post.

Now let's see. I'm making a little legal modification to your statement:

| I'm always happy to help a $person when I can - no matter where they post.

Now let's insert some new words for $person. That wouldn't make a huge
change, because there are so many people here that have so many different
interests (just a few metalworking, it seems).

Here is a list of words to insert. Hope there are some that show you what
nonsense you told:
* gay
* islamist
* republican
* nazi
* environmentalist
* lesbian
* prostitutes
* militarist
* democrat
* ...

Just stick to the charter. This way you don't get upset even if it is a
$person because they all talk about the same subject they all enjoy:
METALWOKING!

Nick

You've sliced thru some feelings you clearly can't comprehend. You
think logically and linearly while obviously being oblivious to even
the most remote understanding of what it means to be an American (or
German) veteran and patriot.

It doesn't matter a whit, not at all. Your problem to deal with or
not.

You will not be allowed to dominate here, Herr Mueller. Contribute as
you may be able to, read what you care to.

I live in Warren county.

I registered my D214 here

http://warrenforestcourt.org/Warren/Other


Mark D

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"flash" wrote in message
...
Second that, Leon.

As a Post-Korea AF vet, I was encouraged by the Separation Officer to
have these Discharges and DD 214's placed on file in our county records.
In Pennsylvania, it is done in the "Office of the Register and Recorder".
Many of the records in my county go back to Civil War vets. It must have
been a relatively common practice.

Flash


Your post has been archived in a special folder. My father was born and
raised in Ludlow, Pa. What a coincidence.

Steve





----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 20:23:41 +0200, Nick Mueller
wrote:

Is that only valid for US vets? You know, I've been in the army too ('77,
before you ask)


Which Einsatzgruppen?

Gunner

This was an acceptable question to me considering the people in this
group. My father was in the Navy so I could look up his ship in the
records. It wasn't nearly as interesting as the few stories he told me
but it was 40 years after the war before he was willing to talk about
it and I'm sure he left out any realy bad things. Just ask your
questions and the people who know the answer will help and others will
complain. I wouldn't worry about it. The good answers out weigh the
negative because the usualy know what they're talking about.
Karl

On Jul 31, 9:47 am, "SteveB" wrote:
To those who were helpful, many thanks. To the others, you might want to
look at this newsgroup and all of the talk about athiests, and other topics
right now, and wonder if coming down on me asking a simple question in a
group I KNOW contains ex military people constitutes absolute stuipdity on
your part. I believe you have shown your scorn and disrespect to me and my
late father, a sargeant and a flight engineer in the United State Air Corps
(Army at that time), who flew on bombers in the South Pacific. Nice work
exposing your asses, guys.

If you are TRULY concerned about the quality of the newsgroup and the
practice of sticking to the topic, there are many more threads that you
could go after. But then, I don't believe for a second that was or is your
main concern.

Have a nice day.

Steve

"Nick Mueller" wrote to another person sticking to
the charter:


Just stick to the charter. This way you don't get upset even if it is a
$person because they all talk about the same subject they all enjoy:
METALWOKING!

Nick

Now, that's funny. You should try it.

Steve rotflmao

wrote in message
ups.com...
This was an acceptable question to me considering the people in this
group. My father was in the Navy so I could look up his ship in the
records. It wasn't nearly as interesting as the few stories he told me
but it was 40 years after the war before he was willing to talk about
it and I'm sure he left out any realy bad things. Just ask your
questions and the people who know the answer will help and others will
complain. I wouldn't worry about it. The good answers out weigh the
negative because the usualy know what they're talking about.
Karl

Grant just hit a nerve with me, which was what he was trying to do. He has
some undercurrent of feelings towards me, and this is not the first time I
have gotten jibes from him. He's just an old putrid bucket of turtle bile,
and now I have put him on total ignore.

With all the OT BS that is posted in this group, it is sadly amusing that
ANYONE would take my question in the wrong way.

I'm learning to ignore more and more of the BS here, and just talk to
reasonable people about metalworking, and (OMG) occasional OT discussions
about this and that. Just as I would at a campfire or lunch counter.

Yes, the world is screwed up. Yes, Bush isn't our best president ever.
Yes, thing are just not right. Cope, people. You're adults. This place
should be our refuge and sanctuary, not our litterbox.

Steve, who's off to do some metalworking projects today.

SteveB wrote:

I'm learning to ignore more and more of the BS here, ...

Oh! So you are still learning!
Next step is to realize that the thing common with all those people posting
here is metalworking. If you -and others- reduce postings to that subject
there is nothing to complain about.


Nick

SteveB wrote:

Now, that's funny. Â*You should try it.

I'm doing it! And trying to convince others to do the same. You won't find a
political discussion here lead by me.
But you will find my complaints about OTs as long as I'm reading and writing
here and as long we do have around 50% OT here. I'll stop complaining when
the OTs are gone. Works in other groups. But here, some terrorists are
trying to completely ruin the group. And others jump onto that
bandwagon ...


rotflmao

Still laughing after thinking?

Nick

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Nothing that matters, except to Nazis.

So you are a Nazi? Because the charter would be worth reading for you.


Nick

Don Foreman wrote:

You've sliced thru some Â*feelings you clearly can't comprehend.

Really, I don't care what you think about veterans. I would care if I'd read
in a veterans group. But I don't.

You
think logically and linearly while Â*obviously being Â*oblivious to even
the most remote understanding of what it means to be an American (or
German) veteran and patriot.

OK. So you said (in an other posting) that you don't like that political
crap that's being posted here. But in the same moment look at this group in
your egocentric way and say that OT postings about veterans and patriots
are OK here. Now would you make that next step and realize that we all have
a smallest common denominator called metalworking. And if we all focus on
*that* topic, there is no one hurt. Not the pacifists, not the veterans.

You will not be allowed to dominate here, Â*Herr Mueller.

OK. I see. But *you* are? Because you think that veterans are **so** special
that that subject belongs to this group, belongs into any group on this
planet? How about making an RFD for changing the charter of RCM?
I'm playing to the rules set by the charter. The one who's ignoring rules is
the one trying to dominate.


Nick

Don Foreman wrote:

Not quite, but close. Frankly, Herr Mueller, I don't care about
bandwidth ...

.... but you complained about it.

I thought Grant's inquiry was appropriate and
reasonable, he being a long-time member and all and given that there
are several other frequent contribtors who are U.S. vets.

Is that only valid for US vets? You know, I've been in the army too ('77,
before you ask). And now can I post any **** that comes to my mind in any
group that I'm running over? *I* don't think so. No, I *know* that this
conclusion is wrong. As wrong as it is for any veterans of any army and for
all the other OT.

I also dislike all the political crap though I have less problem
ignoring such noise than you seem to have.

Learn more. Don't support any OT. Because there is always someone who thinks
that especially this or that OT is so super important that it is OK for
this group. Others think that politics are so important, that they *have*
to be posted here.

I did get sucked into a devious troll from TMT, live and learn.
I'll not make that error twice.

Um ... you *just* repeated it by saying that veteran-OT is OK here.

This group was much more relevant and interesting some years ago,
Altovoz and all.

Yes. All the OT. It's boring to find interesting questions here. Among all
that crap. Making me tired. And I don't answer questions from regular
OT'lers any more, they have already consumed my time I would have liked to
invest in an answer.


I'm a bit dissapointed that neiher you nor anyone else enjoyed my
playful Â*joke re the metal delete key, but that's my problem. Â* This
group has changed a lot.

I understood it as "delete metalworking" :-)) If that helps.


Nick

On Jul 31, 1:55 pm, Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:30:39 -0700, Grant Erwin

wrote:
SteveB wrote:

I would like to get my late father's military records for the time he spent
in the USAC in WWII. How would I go about that?

Why post this here?

GWE

SteveB is a regular relevant contributor, and it's clear that a number
of vets read this NG. Seems like a reasonable request to me.

I agree.

TMT

On Jul 31, 12:27 pm, Jon Anderson wrote:
Greg Postma wrote:
Be fore warned, there was a fire
at one of the DD's warehouses in the 60's and many records were lost.
There is a gap in my Dad's records because of this.

You're lucky. My dad's records were lost entirely. Given he
died when I was a baby, I know virtually nothing about his
service....

Jon

That's exactly my situation, too. I don't know anything about my
fathers service in the Army (WW 2 and Korea) other than the little I
can put together from some of his military gear my mom saved.