Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #1   Report Post  
Pete & sheri
 
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Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

Hi, Ken

Take a look at this link.

http://livesteaming.com/articles/finding.html

Pete Stanaitis

  #2   Report Post  
Carl Byrns
 
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Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:01:06 -0600, Pete & sheri
wrote:

Hi, Ken

Take a look at this link.

http://livesteaming.com/articles/finding.html

Pete Stanaitis


Gee, that sounds familiar. Oh, that's right, I've been saying it for
years.

-Carl

  #3   Report Post  
GTO69RA4
 
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Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

Hi, Ken

Take a look at this link.

http://livesteaming.com/articles/finding.html

Pete Stanaitis


I'm sure the higher-end imports are decent, but the machinery (drill press a
bench grinder) I've bought from HF and generic off eBay truely were junk.
Useless scrap iron.

GTO(John)
  #4   Report Post  
rjs
 
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Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:01:06 -0600, Pete & sheri
wrote:

Take a look at this link.

http://livesteaming.com/articles/finding.html


Please note the date at the end of the article (mar 96) a lot has
changed since then including (i believe) the ownership of Enco.
Regards
Bob

  #5   Report Post  
AZOTIC
 
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Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:01:06 -0600, Pete & sheri
wrote:

Take a look at this link.

http://livesteaming.com/articles/finding.html


Please note the date at the end of the article (mar 96) a lot has
changed since then including (i believe) the ownership of Enco.
Regards
Bob


Correct Enco was purchased by MSC in 1998 when the owner of
Enco died.

Best Regards
Tom.




  #6   Report Post  
Gary Coffman
 
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Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:01:06 -0600, Pete & sheri wrote:
Take a look at this link.

http://livesteaming.com/articles/finding.html


Note that was written 8 years ago, before MSC bought ENCO.
ENCO service and support is much better now (not up to MSC
levels, but much better). They've also dropped many of the
cheapest bits of tooling and machinery from their line, so they're
no longer the low price leader.

The new bottom feeder source is Harbor Freight, or the itinerant
tool sellers like Hornier or Cummins. What the author said about
ENCO 8 years ago now applies to them.

Buying new Asian machines is not a bad idea for the newbie. It
gets you a working machine with at least limited parts support for
a relatively low price. They often need a little work right out of the
box (cleanup, deburring, adjustment, etc), but that's good experience
which will familiarize you with the machine.

OTOH the author discounts used machinery purchases more than
is warranted. It is probably good advice for the complete newbie
who doesn't know what to look out for in a used machine. But the
used machinery market is currently very depressed (lots of shops
upgrading to CNC, lots of shops closing, school programs closing,
etc). So there are some excellent bargains available if you know
where to look for them.

Not every used machine you find will be clapped out, many are in
good to excellent condition, but with much lower asking prices
than 8 years ago. This is definitely a good time to consider used
machinery.

But you do need to educate yourself on what to look out for.
Research the particular machine you're considering, check
to see if the company which made it is still in business, and if
parts are still available. Many of them won't be. Know how to
check for wear in the ways and the motions, and how much
is too much. Know how to check the bearings. Etc.

Note, once you have a fairly well equipped shop, and some
experience, you can *make* replacement parts for orphan
machines. So don't walk away solely because an otherwise
attractive machine is an orphan. There's also a fairly robust
market in used machinery parts, even for the orphans.

There are good resources for researching older machinery on
the web. http://www.lathes.co.uk/page21.html is an invaluable
resource. It lists nearly every major machine tool ever made,
with a bit of history on the tool and the company. Spend a
couple of days there scouting out what should be available,
and what to avoid.

http://www.mermac.com/advicenew.html offers good general
guidance for buying a used lathe.

http://www.mermac.com/freemill2.html offers good general
advice for buying a used mill.

http://www.mermac.com/klunker2.html explains why even a beat
old clunker may be a good deal, if bought for the right reasons
in the right environment.

But with good to excellent used machines now so cheap, buying
a clunker isn't as attractive an option as it once was. If you need
a lathe for flame spraying or hardening, or need a lathe to use
for rough grinding, a clunker might be just the ticket. But for
general use, you probably want something in better condition,
and you can have it at a relatively low price in the current market.

Most industrial machinery will be 3 phase. Don't let that bother
you. There are easy and cheap solutions to that problem. Rotary
converters are easy and cheap to make, VFDs have come *way*
down in price. Etc.

One caveat. Good machines are *heavy*. Consider shipping costs
when contemplating a purchase. Often, it will cost more to ship
the machine than its purchase price. This can kill an otherwise
great deal. That's why people on this newsgroup are so adamant
about asking for the location of tools posted for sale here, and
why the East Coast posters moan about the great West Coast
deals, and vice versa.

If you buy local, your local rollback wrecker service can be your
friend. Many of them routinely move machinery, and their rates
are attractive.

Moving machinery yourself can be a challenge. Most machine
tools are top heavy, and can be very dangerous to move if you
don't know what you're doing and don't have the right equipment.
Hiring riggers who know this business can be a worthwhile,
though often expensive, way to get a machine out of where it is,
and into where you want it to be.

Many of us do move machinery ourselves. But it isn't something
you should approach lightly. A mistake can maim or kill you, or
someone else.

Again, weight is your friend in machine tools. The heavier the
better, more rigidity, less chatter, etc. But that weight does
mean it'll be more costly to move, and more dangerous to set
into place. Keep that in mind when considering machine tool
purchases of any sort.

Gary
  #7   Report Post  
turnitdown
 
Posts: n/a
Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

The ENCO story was a classic- they got started much like JET by buying low
cost Japanese stuff after the war, then expanded to Taiwanese and Chinese.
However the children of the ENCO founder had no interest in tools and the
company stagnated for some time until the founder died and the kids sold out
to MSC and took their cash off to some rich kids paradise where latte's are
served 24/7.

Please note the date at the end of the article (mar 96) a lot has
changed since then including (i believe) the ownership of Enco.
Regards
Bob


Correct Enco was purchased by MSC in 1998 when the owner of
Enco died.

Best Regards
Tom.




  #8   Report Post  
Steve Lusardi
 
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Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

To all,
I am a hobby machinist. I own 3 lathes, 2 mills, 1 shaper and a Mill/ Drill
in my metal shop. My 1st lathe, an SB 10L long, I bought new '81. It is as
tight now as it was then. Absolutely no wear. I have a late model 13 x 40
SB, made in '90 (ex USAF) I bought it when it fell from a fork lift and
repaired it. It was made in Taiwan, again no wear to speak of. I recently
bought a Lodge & Shipley 18 x 54 from the US Army, made in '79, absolutely
the finest lathe I have ever used. It can do anything, quiet, accurate and
very powerful. I bought the mill drill new in '83. It is incredibly useful.
It didn't cost much. It came from mainland China and I have used it up. It
is now junk. I loved it. I have a new one arriving is 4 weeks. My Horizontal
mill is a British Adcock & Shipley 1ES and the Shaper is an 18" Elliot also
British, both machines are ex British Army and have no wear. They are as
accurate as any new machine and both were made in the 60s.

Now the real story. I ordered from Shanghai directly my 2003 Christmas
present. I figured if Harbor Freight, Enco and J&L can do it, so can I. I
located a company Hangzou Milling Machine Manufacturing Co., LTD just
outside of Shanghai and ordered a new Radial Mill model X5325C it weighs
about 3000 lbs It is 6' 8" tall and it has a 250mm x 1120mm table, 2 hp
motor, 16 spindle speeds, central knee power feed 7 speeds in all
directions, rapid traverse in all directions, central lubrication, integral
oil cooling, 3 axis DRO (Goangzhou Sino Digital LTD) and all safety features
installed. I paid $4,400 FOB. This machine is really fantastic. It is of
excellant quality, but there are problems. The control labels were mounted
reversed for transverse and vertical, the sight glass level label was
mounted upside down. The sliding ram had 2 lbs of iron chips inside. The
high speed selection switch for the spindle motor runs the motor in the
wrong direction. This machine has just arrived, so I anticipate more
difficulties. But what this means to me, is that I just bought a $14 to $16k
mill for $4,400 and a little agravation, the Chinese worker can't speak
english and they don't have a clue about clean. I can live with that for
$10,000 savings, because I couldn't afford to own a $16,000 mill for a hobby
otherwise.
Steve
"Pete & sheri" wrote in message
...
Hi, Ken

Take a look at this link.

http://livesteaming.com/articles/finding.html

Pete Stanaitis



  #9   Report Post  
Richard J Kinch
 
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Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

Steve Lusardi writes:

I paid $4,400 FOB.


FOB Shanghai? How was it shipped, and what did that cost?
  #10   Report Post  
Rex B
 
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Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

||I'm sure the higher-end imports are decent, but the machinery (drill press a
||bench grinder) I've bought from HF and generic off eBay truely were junk.
||Useless scrap iron.

With the price of iron & steel going the way it is, you investment may be
appreciating
Rex in Fort Worth


  #11   Report Post  
Steve Lusardi
 
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Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

Ah, a possible gotcha, but I have a freind who imports from Shanghai all the
time. He buys reconditioned 20' containers, fills them with the goods he
needs, ships them here and sells the containers. His net cost per container
is about $2000 to Holland. I got space in one of his containers for $460. I
believe the same thing is possible to the States. You just have to do a
little phone work.
Steve
"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Steve Lusardi writes:

I paid $4,400 FOB.


FOB Shanghai? How was it shipped, and what did that cost?



  #12   Report Post  
Bob Powell
 
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Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

"Pete & sheri" wrote in message
...
Hi, Ken

Take a look at this link.

http://livesteaming.com/articles/finding.html

Pete Stanaitis


So the gist of this article, the author writes:

1. I tried to buy an ENCO but they were hard to deal with so I didn't,
2. I bought a Grizzly lathe and it is OK,
3. You should buy an ENCO because its cheaper and I *think* it's the same
thing.

Did anyone else find this a bit strange?

Well at least it is free advice :-) if only a small step below the quality
of the typical HSM mag review.

Bob


  #13   Report Post  
Peter H.
 
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Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----



A
HREF="http://livesteaming.com/articles/finding.html"http://livesteaming.c
om/articles/finding.html/A


I've never heard of the author's putative Monarch "10E", but I do have two
Monarch 10EEs.

Sharp and Feeler HLV-H clones are pretty good machines.


  #14   Report Post  
Richard J Kinch
 
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Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

Bob Powell writes:

http://livesteaming.com/articles/finding.html


Did anyone else find this a bit strange?


It relates experiences from 10 or more years ago. Doesn't seem to reflect
the Enco of today.
  #15   Report Post  
Steve Cockerham
 
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Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

How about an opion on the new Jet lathes?



"turnitdown" wrote in message
hlink.net...
The ENCO story was a classic- they got started much like JET by buying low
cost Japanese stuff after the war, then expanded to Taiwanese and Chinese.
However the children of the ENCO founder had no interest in tools and the
company stagnated for some time until the founder died and the kids sold

out
to MSC and took their cash off to some rich kids paradise where latte's

are
served 24/7.

Please note the date at the end of the article (mar 96) a lot has
changed since then including (i believe) the ownership of Enco.
Regards
Bob


Correct Enco was purchased by MSC in 1998 when the owner of
Enco died.

Best Regards
Tom.








  #16   Report Post  
6e70
 
Posts: n/a
Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

There is a parallel here. When the worlds armies downsized after WWII
and in to the 50's and early 60's there were many surplus bolt action
rifles on the market. Writers cautioned against their poor condition.
That is because they were culls. The good ones were being retainer
for service, or being sold armies of smaller nations. Twenty to
thirty years later those armies completely re-armed with new automatic
weapons and everybody sold off the good old bolt action rifles. But,
some people still thought they were junk because they remember reading
about the poor quality, or had experienced it for themselves.

CNC machines, and the downsizing of the industry, and mass
closing of school programs, is putting some pretty nice American iron
out onto the market. Not all culls. It is important to tell the
difference. When a shop closes down completely and 10 Bridgeports are
being sold at once, there will probably be a huge difference in wear
among them. If a shop needs some space and is selling 2 out of 10
Bridgeports, you can bet they aren't going to sell the best 2.

My experience with Asian iron is that quality varies widely, usually
by price. I once thought that there is a parts sorter at the Taiwan
plant and he had three piles to sort into. Best was Jet, second was
enco and proprietary brands, third was Harbor freight. Then three
different lines would assemble the machines. This probably wasn't so,
but you could see basically the same machine for sale at three
different quality levels, so it is a possibility
Paul
  #17   Report Post  
Robert Swinney
 
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Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

And so . . . .
"6e70" wrote in message
m...
There is a parallel here. When the worlds armies downsized after WWII
and in to the 50's and early 60's there were many surplus bolt action
rifles on the market. Writers cautioned against their poor condition.
That is because they were culls. The good ones were being retainer
for service, or being sold armies of smaller nations. Twenty to
thirty years later those armies completely re-armed with new automatic
weapons and everybody sold off the good old bolt action rifles. But,
some people still thought they were junk because they remember reading
about the poor quality, or had experienced it for themselves.

CNC machines, and the downsizing of the industry, and mass
closing of school programs, is putting some pretty nice American iron
out onto the market. Not all culls. It is important to tell the
difference. When a shop closes down completely and 10 Bridgeports are
being sold at once, there will probably be a huge difference in wear
among them. If a shop needs some space and is selling 2 out of 10
Bridgeports, you can bet they aren't going to sell the best 2.

My experience with Asian iron is that quality varies widely, usually
by price. I once thought that there is a parts sorter at the Taiwan
plant and he had three piles to sort into. Best was Jet, second was
enco and proprietary brands, third was Harbor freight. Then three
different lines would assemble the machines. This probably wasn't so,
but you could see basically the same machine for sale at three
different quality levels, so it is a possibility
Paul



  #18   Report Post  
Steve Cockerham
 
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Default An opinion article on Asian machine tools-----

I have just spent $5,000.00 on a jet lathe asked for an opion, got a more
than
a very fine responce as I was trying to find out if I made a resonable
choice for
my money, seems I did!
"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
And so . . . .
"6e70" wrote in message
m...
There is a parallel here. When the worlds armies downsized after WWII
and in to the 50's and early 60's there were many surplus bolt action
rifles on the market. Writers cautioned against their poor condition.
That is because they were culls. The good ones were being retainer
for service, or being sold armies of smaller nations. Twenty to
thirty years later those armies completely re-armed with new automatic
weapons and everybody sold off the good old bolt action rifles. But,
some people still thought they were junk because they remember reading
about the poor quality, or had experienced it for themselves.

CNC machines, and the downsizing of the industry, and mass
closing of school programs, is putting some pretty nice American iron
out onto the market. Not all culls. It is important to tell the
difference. When a shop closes down completely and 10 Bridgeports are
being sold at once, there will probably be a huge difference in wear
among them. If a shop needs some space and is selling 2 out of 10
Bridgeports, you can bet they aren't going to sell the best 2.

My experience with Asian iron is that quality varies widely, usually
by price. I once thought that there is a parts sorter at the Taiwan
plant and he had three piles to sort into. Best was Jet, second was
enco and proprietary brands, third was Harbor freight. Then three
different lines would assemble the machines. This probably wasn't so,
but you could see basically the same machine for sale at three
different quality levels, so it is a possibility
Paul





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