One of the local shops I send my business to is owned by a friend. He is
always amazed that I am able to dig up answers to questions even though I
have much less experience and head-knowledge than he does. I keep telling
him how powerful and helpful the newsgroups are, but he just doesn't have
time or the will to come join us.

So... He asked me to try and solve a problem he is having. I posted this
to the alt.machines.cnc group too... He owns a Michael Deckel brand
machine. It is a five axis tool grinding machine. Model S18PCNC-5.

Apparently, he bought the machine and now he can't get support at a logical
price for the software... They want a huge sum of money to simply get him
up and running... Something like 250% of the price he paid for the machine
itself.

So... His challenge to me was to find someone who knows something about the
software who might be able to help him. I'm a drilling guy so I couldn't
even tell him where the start button is... But I told him someone here
would probably know the circuitry of the internal boards by heart. grin

Anyone able to help? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com

"Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message
news:hON5g.3422$qb6.1452@trndny07...
One of the local shops I send my business to is owned by a friend. He is
always amazed that I am able to dig up answers to questions even though I
have much less experience and head-knowledge than he does. I keep telling
him how powerful and helpful the newsgroups are, but he just doesn't have
time or the will to come join us.

So... He asked me to try and solve a problem he is having. I posted this
to the alt.machines.cnc group too... He owns a Michael Deckel brand
machine. It is a five axis tool grinding machine. Model S18PCNC-5.

Apparently, he bought the machine and now he can't get support at a
logical price for the software... They want a huge sum of money to simply
get him up and running... Something like 250% of the price he paid for
the machine itself.

So... His challenge to me was to find someone who knows something about
the software who might be able to help him. I'm a drilling guy so I
couldn't even tell him where the start button is... But I told him
someone here would probably know the circuitry of the internal boards by
heart. grin

Anyone able to help? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

The folks on www.practicalmachinist.com might be able to help. There is a
Deckel-specific forum there that tends to focus on the miling machines but
it is still worth a shot.

Mike


--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

Mike Henry wrote:

There is a Deckel-specific forum there that tends to focus on the miling
machines but it is still worth a shot.

Problem is, that "Michael Deckel" is not the Deckel everyone thinks of
when he hears Deckel.

Michael Deckel is -in my eyes- bit of a cheater. He named his t&c
grinders like the real Deckel ones and also they look alike.


Nick

--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO // Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige
http://www.yadro.de

"Brian Lawson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 7 May 2006 20:20:45 -0500, "Mike Henry"
wrote:


"Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message
news:hON5g.3422$qb6.1452@trndny07...
One of the local shops I send my business to is owned by a friend. He
is
always amazed that I am able to dig up answers to questions even though
I
have much less experience and head-knowledge than he does. I keep
telling
him how powerful and helpful the newsgroups are, but he just doesn't
have
time or the will to come join us.

So... He asked me to try and solve a problem he is having. I posted
this
to the alt.machines.cnc group too... He owns a Michael Deckel brand
machine. It is a five axis tool grinding machine. Model S18PCNC-5.

Apparently, he bought the machine and now he can't get support at a
logical price for the software... They want a huge sum of money to
simply
get him up and running... Something like 250% of the price he paid for
the machine itself.

So... His challenge to me was to find someone who knows something about
the software who might be able to help him. I'm a drilling guy so I
couldn't even tell him where the start button is... But I told him
someone here would probably know the circuitry of the internal boards by
heart. grin

Anyone able to help? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

The folks on www.practicalmachinist.com might be able to help. There is a
Deckel-specific forum there that tends to focus on the miling machines but
it is still worth a shot.

Mike

That group about Deckel's is about FREIDERICH Deckel Machines, not
this Michael newbie. Albeit, the asking at that forum is still a good
idea.

Thanks for the note - figured it was some sort of family spinoff and the
grinders do seem to be very well built.

Mike


--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

Mike Henry wrote:

figured it was some sort of family spinoff

No, he aint. But he's also near Munich. The hometown of Friedrich
Deckel, the one and only, the real and the blessed :-). The "Friedrich"
disapeared in the name somewhere in the 50 ... 60.


... and the grinders do seem to be very well built.

YIKES!, they are using Windows-XP to controll the machines! I wouldn't
call that neither "sound" nor "well".


Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO // Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige
http://www.yadro.de

Nick Müller wrote:
Mike Henry wrote:

figured it was some sort of family spinoff

No, he aint. But he's also near Munich. The hometown of Friedrich
Deckel, the one and only, the real and the blessed :-). The
"Friedrich" disapeared in the name somewhere in the 50 ... 60.


... and the grinders do seem to be very well built.

YIKES!, they are using Windows-XP to controll the machines! I wouldn't
call that neither "sound" nor "well".

Why not Nick. Seimens does the same thing on the 840D and there isn't a
better control on the planet.
To be fair, XP isn't controlling the machine in either case. It is, however,
incorporated as the interface.


--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

John R. Carroll wrote:

Why not Nick. Seimens does the same thing on the 840D and there isn't a
better control on the planet.

You meant Siemens. :-)
XP isn't a RT-OS. Even with some patches. And it is known to be
unstable. Why would I like to have something like this on a production
machine?
- http://www.micom.net/oops/WindowsPanel.jpg :-))


To be fair, XP isn't controlling the machine in either case. It is, however,
incorporated as the interface.

That doesn't make a difference.


Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO // Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige
http://www.yadro.de

Nick Müller wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:

Why not Nick. Seimens does the same thing on the 840D and there
isn't a better control on the planet.

You meant Siemens. :-)

Hah! Yes, I did. My spell checker normally catches that.

XP isn't a RT-OS. Even with some patches. And it is known to be
unstable. Why would I like to have something like this on a production
machine?
- http://www.micom.net/oops/WindowsPanel.jpg :-))

Integration is one reason but there are others. When a company like Siemens
chooses to do something like this they do so for a reason.
I give them credit for being smarter than I am. The guys at Index are pretty
smart as well and the G400 and 500 machines use the 840D.
My experience with Windows on machine tools has lead me to conclude that the
worst thing about Windows is that it allows stupidity and the rules of the
road aren't always clear.



To be fair, XP isn't controlling the machine in either case. It is,
however, incorporated as the interface.

That doesn't make a difference.

Sure it does. All of the real time functionality is provided directly by the
hardware.
Properly configured, the Windows OS can crash and the machine will continue
to run and I've seen exactly that.


--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

John R. Carroll wrote:

Integration is one reason but there are others. When a company like Siemens
chooses to do something like this they do so for a reason.

I once did a freelancer job (as programmer) for Siemens. And my attitude
towards them didn't get better after that experience.


My experience with Windows on machine tools has lead me to conclude that the
worst thing about Windows is that it allows stupidity and the rules of the
road aren't always clear.

So why train the shopmen for Windows and not something simpler and more
dedicated? Are they point & clickers or clamp & millers?


To be fair, XP isn't controlling the machine in either case. It is,
however, incorporated as the interface.

That doesn't make a difference.

Sure it does. All of the real time functionality is provided directly by the
hardware.

So what is the reason for an OS that needs such an expensive hardware to
run on, when the software isn't capable of taking over some of the
machine's hardware? What did they gain?


Properly configured, the Windows OS can crash and the machine will continue
to run and I've seen exactly that.

A proof of (mis-)concept? :-))

Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO // Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige
http://www.yadro.de

On Mon, 8 May 2006 18:59:52 +0200, (Nick
Müller) wrote:
snip
So why train the shopmen for Windows and not something simpler and more
dedicated? Are they point & clickers or clamp & millers?
snip
A majority of people in the United States, Europe, and
increasingly Asia have home computers. The majority of these
home computers use some version of the Windows o/s. By using the
Windows interface you are able to eliminate part [and possibly
most or even all] of the o/s learning curve.


Unka George
(George McDuffee)

There is something to be said for government by a great aristocracy
which has furnished leaders to the nation in peace and war for generations;
even a democrat like myself must admit this.

But there is absolutely nothing to be said for government by a plutocracy,
for government by men very powerful in certain lines and gifted with the "money touch,"
but with ideals which in their essence are merely those of so many glorified pawnbrokers.

Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919), U.S. Republican (later Progressive) politician, president. Letter, 15 Nov. 1913.

Nick Müller wrote:

To be fair, XP isn't controlling the machine in either case. It is,
however, incorporated as the interface.

That doesn't make a difference.

Sure it does. All of the real time functionality is provided directly by the
hardware.

So what is the reason for an OS that needs such an expensive hardware to
run on, when the software isn't capable of taking over some of the
machine's hardware? What did they gain?

The CPU of a modern PC is increasingly a poor place to do critical real
time control. Part of the problem is that as CPU's get faster and
faster, they have to be more and more isolated from the real world, and
that isolation introduces latency and complexity. Also available PC
components change too fast for the custom interfaces to keep up with.
Pretty soon it becomes simpler to design loosely coupled
semi-autonomous custom hardware, than hardware that will put the PC CPU
inside the servo loop or even just the motion planner.

I would think the real test though is not if the part keeps cutting
once windows crashes, but if the part still stops cutting when you hit
the big red button or trip a travel switch, with windows already
crashed...

On Mon, 8 May 2006 18:59:52 +0200, (Nick
Müller) wrote:
snip
So what is the reason for an OS that needs such an expensive hardware to
run on, when the software isn't capable of taking over some of the
machine's hardware? What did they gain?
snip
Unless Siemens is using a special "shop hardened"/"mil spec" PC,
it is far cheaper than a purpose built limited function computer.
Check the Dell ads to see how inexpensive an XP level unit can
be. Additional end-user benefits of using a stock or semi-stock
PC are easy up grade [e.g. tetrabyte drives, RAID data
protection, cheap memory up grade if 512 MEG isn't enough, 100$
monitor replacement, etc.]

Additionally, unless you are satisfied with a "stand-alone"
system, it will be *MUCH* easier for your IT people [in- or out-
house] to integrate the computer into your existing LAN.

Also when [not if] you have computer problems, there is a much
better chance your local computer geek can fix it.


Unka George
(George McDuffee)

There is something to be said for government by a great aristocracy
which has furnished leaders to the nation in peace and war for generations;
even a democrat like myself must admit this.

But there is absolutely nothing to be said for government by a plutocracy,
for government by men very powerful in certain lines and gifted with the "money touch,"
but with ideals which in their essence are merely those of so many glorified pawnbrokers.

Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919), U.S. Republican (later Progressive) politician, president. Letter, 15 Nov. 1913.

wrote:

Also available PC components change too fast for the custom interfaces to
keep up with. Pretty soon it becomes simpler to design loosely coupled
semi-autonomous custom hardware, than hardware that will put the PC CPU
inside the servo loop or even just the motion planner.

Now is that an argument for such an overkill-OS like XP?

Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO // Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige
http://www.yadro.de

F. George McDuffee wrote:

Unless Siemens is using a special "shop hardened"/"mil spec" PC,

They certainly do.


... it is far cheaper than a purpose built limited function computer.

We (or I) was talking about OSes, not PCs.


Check the Dell ads to see how inexpensive an XP level unit can
be.

Nice. Neither the OS nor the PC is what I would connect to a 24/7
production machine.


Additional end-user benefits of using a stock or semi-stock
PC are easy up grade [e.g. tetrabyte drives, RAID data
protection, cheap memory up grade if 512 MEG isn't enough, 100$
monitor replacement, etc.]

No need for upgrades. Chances are very low, that a new version of
PowerPain, Sentence or InternetExploder will need more disk space, more
RAM or a faster CPU.


Additionally, unless you are satisfied with a "stand-alone"
system, it will be *MUCH* easier for your IT people [in- or out-
house] to integrate the computer into your existing LAN.

TCP/IP is a standard. If one knows what an IP-address is, he can connect
anything to ethernet if that anything has an interface. But if you
prefer using Autoconfusion-programs of your favorite OS, you are already
on the wrong track.


Also when [not if] you have computer problems, there is a much
better chance your local computer geek can fix it.

The ITs live from the problems that HW/OS makes. Don't confuse
maintainability with need for maintenance.


Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO // Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige
http://www.yadro.de

Nick Müller wrote:
wrote:

Also available PC components change too fast for the custom interfaces to
keep up with. Pretty soon it becomes simpler to design loosely coupled
semi-autonomous custom hardware, than hardware that will put the PC CPU
inside the servo loop or even just the motion planner.

Now is that an argument for such an overkill-OS like XP?

In a way. An argument for a motion system loosely coupled to the user
interface / program storage PC is in effect an argument for granting
permission to choose the PC operating system primarily for user
interface, data interchange, etc reasons. If XP is on your desk, then
it may make a lot of sense for it to be on your machine. If XP isn't
on your desk then it probably has no place on your machine, though you
may have to go with what the vendor will sell you.

The point being that once you offload the critical stuff into custom
hardware (because its getting to be such a pain to do it on the PC)
then it doesn't matter all that much for machine performance what the
PC operating system is. It only matters for ease of use - ease of use
when all factors (such as compatability, familiarity, downtime, etc)
are taken into account. And that is very much an open question.

wrote:

The point being that once you offload the critical stuff into custom
hardware (because its getting to be such a pain to do it on the PC)
then it doesn't matter all that much for machine performance what the
PC operating system is. It only matters for ease of use - ease of use
when all factors (such as compatability, familiarity, downtime, etc)
are taken into account. And that is very much an open question.

So with both agree. :-))

Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO // Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige
http://www.yadro.de

On Mon, 8 May 2006 15:55:43 +0200, (Nick Müller)
wrote:

Mike Henry wrote:

figured it was some sort of family spinoff

No, he aint. But he's also near Munich. The hometown of Friedrich
Deckel, the one and only, the real and the blessed :-). The "Friedrich"
disapeared in the name somewhere in the 50 ... 60.


... and the grinders do seem to be very well built.

YIKES!, they are using Windows-XP to controll the machines! I wouldn't
call that neither "sound" nor "well".


Nick

XP, Win2K and NT run most of the current water jet cutters.

Gunner

"I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural
patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief
in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist

In article , Nick Müller
wrote:

F. George McDuffee wrote:

Unless Siemens is using a special "shop hardened"/"mil spec" PC,

They certainly do.


... it is far cheaper than a purpose built limited function computer.

We (or I) was talking about OSes, not PCs.


Check the Dell ads to see how inexpensive an XP level unit can
be.

Nice. Neither the OS nor the PC is what I would connect to a 24/7
production machine.


Additional end-user benefits of using a stock or semi-stock
PC are easy up grade [e.g. tetrabyte drives, RAID data
protection, cheap memory up grade if 512 MEG isn't enough, 100$
monitor replacement, etc.]

No need for upgrades. Chances are very low, that a new version of
PowerPain, Sentence or InternetExploder will need more disk space, more
RAM or a faster CPU.


Additionally, unless you are satisfied with a "stand-alone"
system, it will be *MUCH* easier for your IT people [in- or out-
house] to integrate the computer into your existing LAN.

TCP/IP is a standard. If one knows what an IP-address is, he can connect
anything to ethernet if that anything has an interface. But if you
prefer using Autoconfusion-programs of your favorite OS, you are already
on the wrong track.


Also when [not if] you have computer problems, there is a much
better chance your local computer geek can fix it.

The ITs live from the problems that HW/OS makes. Don't confuse
maintainability with need for maintenance.

Amen, brother! That's why I used Sun Microsystems hardware for nearly
20 years. It's why I use linux and Mac OS X. I have *one* Windoze box
about so I can run Solidworks and other Windoze only programs, but
if/when Apple allows me to do this under OS X, it's goodbye, sucker!

FWIW I/we write our own datalogging code, not machine control, tho
we've done that too, for marine sampling systems.

PDW

wrote:
Nick Müller wrote:

To be fair, XP isn't controlling the machine in either case. It
is, however, incorporated as the interface.

That doesn't make a difference.

Sure it does. All of the real time functionality is provided
directly by the hardware.

So what is the reason for an OS that needs such an expensive
hardware to run on, when the software isn't capable of taking over
some of the machine's hardware? What did they gain?

The CPU of a modern PC is increasingly a poor place to do critical
real time control. Part of the problem is that as CPU's get faster
and faster, they have to be more and more isolated from the real
world, and that isolation introduces latency and complexity. Also
available PC components change too fast for the custom interfaces to
keep up with. Pretty soon it becomes simpler to design loosely coupled
semi-autonomous custom hardware, than hardware that will put the PC
CPU inside the servo loop or even just the motion planner.

I would think the real test though is not if the part keeps cutting
once windows crashes, but if the part still stops cutting when you hit
the big red button or trip a travel switch, with windows already
crashed...

Feed hold as well. By the time you have motion, everything is on the machine
tool motion control side of the equation.

The advantage of a Windows operating system interfaced to a machine tool
control is third party manufacturing application support.
SPC/RPC and MRP system integration solutions are either written for windows
or OS's that can talk to Windows. For the most part, control manufacturers
have adopted windows for an interface. or are able to run an emulator. Even
a Fanuc will run compiled C.

For manufacturing professionals, the effect is obvious. You have a lot of
developers writing software you can use to automate every aspect of the
manufacturing process that is both compatable and relatively inexpensive.
Development costs are spread over a larger installed base.
That base also yeilds more robust applications.

High speed/high precision industrial machine tool motion control will be
task specific and proprietary for the forseable future. The state of the
industry comercially today is 16 million discrete pulses per rotation, fiber
optic bandwidth and PowerPC floating point processors.
FWIW, that is right out of the box - not the extreme rigs run by some - and
you are splitting an angstrom at those resolutions.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com