Actually a very interesting question, which has clearly gone over the heads
of the Collective Cocksuckers who frequent alt.hvac.
They can maybe suck the refrigerant out of an A/C system, and likely suck a
few other things pretty well, but they don't have a fukn thermodynamic clue
about a fukn thing. They'd rather sit around in a friggin circle jerk,
passing around beer and vaseline.

You are describing geothermal heating/cooling, which is an excellent idea,
but which is easier described than accomplished.
There are a few of reasons why it proly won't work in your case.

1. m * c * delta T, which is the energy contained in a given mass. Just
because the air is cool in the basement doesn't mean there is much energy.
For example, when you open your fridge door, you don't really waste a lot of
energy because the lost cold air didn't use much--very low mass, very low
"c".
But the gallon of *milk* you leave out by accident DOES waste a fair amount
of energy, relatively speaking. Big m, big c.

2. delta T:
The cool air in yer basement may seem cool to you, but in fact likely
is not sufficiently cool to make an impact upstairs. The air/cold water
coming from chillers/A/C is pushing 40 deg F--frigid in comparison to
basement air. Has to do w/ Newton's Law of Cooling.

3. Heat Transfer:
How long did it take the basement to cool the air that is in it? Proly
a long time, for some of the above reasons, and other notions, such as film
coefficients, etc..
Which means that altho you might initially be able to get the "first batch"
of cool air upstairs, more will not likely follow.

4. Density:
Moving cold air upstairs is a pita. Which is why a good A/C guy will ask if
they can put a ducted unit in yer *attic*, rather than the basement. This
alone can save 20-30% on yer cooling bill, if such an installation is
possible.

Having said all that, it could be relatively cheap to run 4-8" round duct w/
a cupla surplus muffin fans (push/pull), to get whatever you can get from
bottom to top.
Sumpn is better than nuthin--the 4th law of thermodynamics.
IOW, might help a little, but won't be sufficient by itself.

True geothermal systems are *big*, require a lot of mass (like the, uh,
*earth*), dense fluid (like water, for mass), and very large contact area
for maximum heat transfer. And proly a larger delta T than what you got in
yer basement.

I have the same situation, and basically just put a TV and couch in the
basement for when it's really fukn hot and I'm feeling real cheap/thrifty.

Here's an interesting corollary.
I have a two-car garage that actually used to contain 2 cars, before it got
filled up w/ g-d milling machines and lathes. It is the basement level of
the house, not attached or detached.
I would, naturally, park in the garage, and goddamm, what an effect on the
rest of the house!!
So much so, that in the summer I made a concerted effort to park on the
street, while in the winter, I *always* parked inside.
Why? m * c* delta T!!! And the fact that hot air rises. You got an
engine/tranny/exhaust, weighing pert near 1,000 lbs at pert near 212 deg
F--dats *a LOT* of goddamm btu's, jack.

You'd think the ****wads in alt.hvac would recognize an inneresting
question, and dignify it.
But the mere hint of DIY, and golly gee, you cain't join their circle jerk.
Open wide, mutha****as.....

x-posted to rcm, where not only do they know sumpn about a lot, they are
willing to discuss it.
--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"aharbour" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi
I am thinking of running a vaccum air pump to take the cool air in my
basement and take
the air into my bedroom. This would be quite easy for me to do since
there is a channel in my attic running vertically down to the basement.
All i would then have to do is place a vent in my bedroom ceiling.

Can anyone confirm that this works (it seems logical that it would) and
suggest the type of pump and piping to use as well as some king of
thermostatically controlled power strip.

If it does work, why is this method not standardly installed with
central A/C ? My AC has a fan that only circulates air in the same
zones.

Taking this vacuum idea further, if I run a looped length of metal
piping (has to be a good heat conductor) a few feet undergroud in my
backyard and pump hot house air through it, would it come back
considerably cooler?

You'd think the ****wads in alt.hvac would recognize an inneresting
question, and dignify it.
But the mere hint of DIY, and golly gee, you cain't join their circle
jerk.
Open wide, mutha****as.....

couple of points here, First, recirc of air through a burried pipe is old
news...it takes a lot of real estate, and when all is said and done, it very
pricey for what you get. Second, unless you have a means of
dehumidification, your not accomplishing anymore than what a fan would do.
Third, all this crap you spout sounds good on paper, but in the real world,
you need to get a clue.


Now as to us helping the DIY folks??? In many parts of the country now, its
ILLEGAL for you to DIY. Even in backaswards Mississippi, there is currently
legislation before the state senate to mandate licensing, and code
enforcement. The reason?? DIY burning their homes to the ground, supposed
technicians, and contractors ripping folks off and doing work that is
criminally crappy and just plain dangerous. If you have the training,
education, experience, tools, and equipment to do the job correctly, then go
get your EPA card, and a mechaincal license, pull a permit, then have at it.

As to taking money from us??? its like this... the likelyhood of somebody on
here calling one of the folks on here to actually do work for them is so
geographicly slim, that the odds are laughable.

We do have this grocery habit we have to support though. We were addicted at
a very young age. I tried to kick the habit once, but couldn't get past the
withdrawl symptoms. The truely evil part of it is there's a dealer on almost
every street corner.

Now please take your little raped ass on down the road.

*PLONK*

Awwwww, mommmy, he plonked me......

*Now* you deign to help the OP out, after about 15 posts ragging him and his
idea???
And you *still* don't get it!
Proly cuz you still can't read, and you don't get it even when someone else
gives you the fukn answer.
You alt.hvac fagits are precisely why HVAC contractors have such a bad name,
licensed or otherwise:
You don't know much, and hoard (whore?) the little you do know.

It's sorta like guys who are genuinely tough: fortunately, most of them are
nice, quiet guys.
It's the little fukn chihauhau's who got their asses kicked all thru grade
school who are the problem as adults.
In kind, people who actually know--and understand--sumpn usually aren't
faggy raggy bitchy about it, cuz they're usually smart enough to recognize
the raw *aesthetic* to the knowledge and thus are more than willing to share
it--doctors, lawyers, and apparently hvac fagits notwithstanding.

Oh yeah, the OP is certainly risking burning his house down with his idea...
Oh, sorry to keep you--one of your circle-jerk buddies needs the
vaseline--or a hand....
--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Noon-Air" wrote in message
. ..


You'd think the ****wads in alt.hvac would recognize an inneresting
question, and dignify it.
But the mere hint of DIY, and golly gee, you cain't join their circle
jerk.
Open wide, mutha****as.....

couple of points here, First, recirc of air through a burried pipe is old
news...it takes a lot of real estate, and when all is said and done, it
very pricey for what you get. Second, unless you have a means of
dehumidification, your not accomplishing anymore than what a fan would do.
Third, all this crap you spout sounds good on paper, but in the real
world, you need to get a clue.


Now as to us helping the DIY folks??? In many parts of the country now,
its ILLEGAL for you to DIY. Even in backaswards Mississippi, there is
currently legislation before the state senate to mandate licensing, and
code enforcement. The reason?? DIY burning their homes to the ground,
supposed technicians, and contractors ripping folks off and doing work
that is criminally crappy and just plain dangerous. If you have the
training, education, experience, tools, and equipment to do the job
correctly, then go get your EPA card, and a mechaincal license, pull a
permit, then have at it.

As to taking money from us??? its like this... the likelyhood of somebody
on here calling one of the folks on here to actually do work for them is
so geographicly slim, that the odds are laughable.

We do have this grocery habit we have to support though. We were addicted
at a very young age. I tried to kick the habit once, but couldn't get past
the withdrawl symptoms. The truely evil part of it is there's a dealer on
almost every street corner.

Now please take your little raped ass on down the road.

*PLONK*

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:

You are describing geothermal heating/cooling, which is an excellent idea,
but which is easier described than accomplished.


There are a couple systems that work, but they are not trivial to install.

A very old system is called "cool tubes". A modern approach is to bury
6" PVC
pipes about 100' long at least 6' under the ground. Use an exhaust fan
to suck
outside air through the tubes and into the basement. You end up with a
lot of
humidity that way, at least in certain areas. The old way was clay pipe and
a solar-heated tower on the roof to pull the air up. Totally passive
that way.

An improvement is to make the pipes a closed loop, taking inside air, run it
through the pipes and back inside. This way you don't gain humidity
constantly
from outside.

Another system is to take well water and pump it through heat exchangers
to cool inside air. You can patch a water-to-water heat pump into the
circuit
with bypass valves, so when the water is not cool enough to support the heat
load, it can increase the heat flow. It can also heat the place in the
winter.
You can dump the well water down another well nearby. If your local
well water temperature is toward the colder side, you can actually cool a
house quite well and rarely have to use the heat pump. It does require a
larger heat exchanger with a counter-current arrangement of the water and
air flow to get effective enough cooling. If your well water is 65 F, it is
quite marginal. If the well water is 57 F, that will work quite well if you
like the rooms around 75 F. You may need a separate dehumidifier, but
those take very little electricity.

Jon

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...


Proctologically Violated©® wrote:

You are describing geothermal heating/cooling, which is an excellent idea,
but which is easier described than accomplished.

There are a couple systems that work, but they are not trivial to install.

A very old system is called "cool tubes". A modern approach is to bury 6"
PVC
pipes about 100' long at least 6' under the ground. Use an exhaust fan to
suck
outside air through the tubes and into the basement.

These days, I'd be worried about mold growth inside those pipes, with the
current hysteria on the subject. On the general subject of cheap cooling, a
Google search on displacement ventilation will yield some interesting
material. Cool (65 degree) air is dumped near the floor at low velocity,
generally in a room at least nine feet high. Thermal stratification results
in hot, stale air at the top and cool, fresh air at the bottom. Some of
these systems are operating at 1/3 to 1/2 the volume of conventional mixed
air systems, with a much lower static pressure and reduced face velocity.
You have to be able to control the temperature of the supply air fairly
precisely, most DX units are on/off, some multi-stage units might work. Many
of the displacement ventilation systems use 100% outside air. Contaminants
tend to go up and are exhausted at the ceiling level.

ATP* wrote:
"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...


Proctologically Violated©® wrote:


You are describing geothermal heating/cooling, which is an excellent idea,
but which is easier described than accomplished.


There are a couple systems that work, but they are not trivial to install.

A very old system is called "cool tubes". A modern approach is to bury 6"
PVC
pipes about 100' long at least 6' under the ground. Use an exhaust fan to
suck
outside air through the tubes and into the basement.


These days, I'd be worried about mold growth inside those pipes, with the
current hysteria on the subject.
Yup, I agree, this is a known problem with it. I wouldn't set one of
the open-ended ones up on my house for that reason.

Jon

Noon-Air wrote:

couple of points here, First, recirc of air through a burried pipe is old
news...it takes a lot of real estate, and when all is said and done, it very
pricey for what you get. Second, unless you have a means of
dehumidification, your not accomplishing anymore than what a fan would do.
Third, all this crap you spout sounds good on paper, but in the real world,
you need to get a clue.


Now as to us helping the DIY folks??? In many parts of the country now, its
ILLEGAL for you to DIY. Even in backaswards Mississippi, there is currently
legislation before the state senate to mandate licensing, and code
enforcement. The reason?? DIY burning their homes to the ground, supposed
technicians, and contractors ripping folks off and doing work that is
criminally crappy and just plain dangerous. If you have the training,
education, experience, tools, and equipment to do the job correctly, then go
get your EPA card, and a mechaincal license, pull a permit, then have at it.

As to taking money from us??? its like this... the likelyhood of somebody on
here calling one of the folks on here to actually do work for them is so
geographicly slim, that the odds are laughable.

We do have this grocery habit we have to support though. We were addicted at
a very young age. I tried to kick the habit once, but couldn't get past the
withdrawl symptoms. The truely evil part of it is there's a dealer on almost
every street corner.

Now please take your little raped ass on down the road.

*PLONK*


I think you're the one who's been getting cucumbers shoved up his ass!
Stop wasting valuable bandwidth, and our time, by posting this garbage.
You can't seem to get along with anybody.
Bitch, bitch, bitch.
I thought you were too important for this kind of ****, Nooner?
I guess you're never to busy to sound your own horn.
Borrow Goof-fish's gun and blow your brains out.

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Awwwww, mommmy, he plonked me......


No he didn't. He only pretends to plonk.



*Now* you deign to help the OP out, after about 15 posts ragging him and his
idea???
And you *still* don't get it!
Proly cuz you still can't read, and you don't get it even when someone else
gives you the fukn answer.


Nobody has EVER accused Nooner of being intelligent.