I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going
away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to
convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I
am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or
the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it.
The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other
restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease
of working on it.
I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I
would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as
I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.
TIA
Glenn

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:13:45 -0700, "Glenn"
wrote:

I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going
away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to
convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I
am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or
the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it.
The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other
restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease
of working on it.
I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I
would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as
I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.
TIA
Glenn

Greetings Glenn,
Some folks use brass instead of stainless for sleeving brake
cylinders. I would. As far as the rusting is concerned this means
(probably) water in the system so how is it getting in? Since you are
going through the whole thing anyway have you considered silicone
based fluid? I think it's designated DOT4. It was used in postal
jeeps. I took one of these apart to do other work and was amazed at
the pristine look of the internal brake system parts. Zero corrosion.
It may be that this stuff is unsuitable for use in a Corvette, and you
would have to bleed the system completely, but you may want to look
into it.

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:13:45 -0700, "Glenn"
wrote:

I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going
away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to
convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders.
I
am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or
the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get
it.
The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of
other
restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for
ease
of working on it.
I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process.
I
would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes
as
I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.
TIA
Glenn

Greetings Glenn,
Some folks use brass instead of stainless for sleeving brake
cylinders. I would. As far as the rusting is concerned this means
(probably) water in the system so how is it getting in? Since you are
going through the whole thing anyway have you considered silicone
based fluid? I think it's designated DOT4. It was used in postal
jeeps. I took one of these apart to do other work and was amazed at
the pristine look of the internal brake system parts. Zero corrosion.
It may be that this stuff is unsuitable for use in a Corvette, and you
would have to bleed the system completely, but you may want to look
into it.
I hadn't thought of brass. I will look into that.
I will be replacing virtually everything but the hardlines and even most of
those will be replaced. I have seen stainless brake lines in a refit kit
but am a bit leery of stainless brake lines as the fatigue factor could be a
problem.. don't know just a baseless fear. As to the water getting in ..
sitting in uncontrolled environment for several years tends to do that. It
could be that the silicone will be a good cure but I was reading that water
still gets into the system .. it just dosen't mix with the silcone based
fluid like it does with the glycol based fluids.
Thanks for the ideas.
Glenn

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:22:37 -0700, "Glenn"
wrote:


"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:13:45 -0700, "Glenn"
wrote:

I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going
away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to
convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders.
I
am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or
the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get
it.
The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of
other
restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for
ease
of working on it.
I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process.
I
would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes
as
I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.
TIA
Glenn

Greetings Glenn,
Some folks use brass instead of stainless for sleeving brake
cylinders. I would. As far as the rusting is concerned this means
(probably) water in the system so how is it getting in? Since you are
going through the whole thing anyway have you considered silicone
based fluid? I think it's designated DOT4. It was used in postal
jeeps. I took one of these apart to do other work and was amazed at
the pristine look of the internal brake system parts. Zero corrosion.
It may be that this stuff is unsuitable for use in a Corvette, and you
would have to bleed the system completely, but you may want to look
into it.
I hadn't thought of brass. I will look into that.
I will be replacing virtually everything but the hardlines and even most of
those will be replaced. I have seen stainless brake lines in a refit kit
but am a bit leery of stainless brake lines as the fatigue factor could be a
problem.. don't know just a baseless fear. As to the water getting in ..
sitting in uncontrolled environment for several years tends to do that. It
could be that the silicone will be a good cure but I was reading that water
still gets into the system .. it just dosen't mix with the silcone based
fluid like it does with the glycol based fluids.
Thanks for the ideas.
Glenn

Glycol based fluids absorb water. So any water that enters will
eventually be spread throughout the system. Silicone based fluids do
not. Silicone based fluid systems may allow water into the master
cylinder but I don't see how it would spread. The mail jeep cylinders
all around were pristine looking inside. And I know for a fact that
this fluid had been in the jeep for at least 12 years. But this is of
course only one sample and may be a fluke. Have you heard of stainless
tubing developing cracks sooner than plain steel tubing? Something you
may not know is that stainless needs free oxygen to keep it corrosion
free. The steel develops an oxide coating very quickly when exposed to
air. This is what prevents further oxidation. Aluminum also does this.
I can imagine a situation where stainless liners would corrode
quickly. A couple marine examples: Washington State runs a bunch of
ferries. Stainless piping that carries salt water is not used on these
boats because of internal corrosion. At least one boat was built and
delivered with stainless piping. The boat(s) was (were) returned to
the builder to have the SS replaced. In my years working in machine
shops near Puget Sound I have made several prop shafts. Most from
monel or other high nickel alloys. Some prop shafts that I made were
replacements. When this happened the old shaft was always brought in
as a sample. The old prop shafts would be put on the stock rack for
making odd parts. The stainless shafts always had what looked like
worm holes that started at the prop end. These holes would wander down
the length of the shaft. The deepest were nearly two feet long. They
were caused by the shafts always being submerged in salt water. In the
early 1980's it was discovered that the anerobic environment not only
allowed the stainless to corrode (expected) but that it also allowed
biodegradation of the stainless. This was discovered in the stainless
coolant piping in a nuclear power plant. I hope you found the above
interesting.
ERS

Glenn - contact white post restorations, they offer a brake cylinder
sleeving service to the old car restoration hobby - I've used them for
work on my 51 dodge - you mail them the stuff, they sleeve it and send
it back -

there are other services that specialize in sleeving Corvette calipers
especially - quite a few of them can be found in Hemmings motor news -
I have not personally used any of those.

you are having rust problems because brake fluid is hydroscopic and
absorbs water. to avoid this, change your brake fluid every year, or
every other year. If you do this, you will have no corrosion and your
brake hydraulic stuff will last almost forever. Alternatively, if you
are careful, you can use DOT 5 fluid, which is hydrophobic, but you
have to be careful to not entrap air bubbles as you pour it into the
master cylinder. I have used DOT 5 in several cars, in some it leaked
out (because it does't cause seals to swell like the glycol fluid), in
others it was OK. your vette will probably be OK.

extensive tests have been done with DOT 5
Bill

www.wbnoble.com

to contact me, do not reply to this message,
instead correct this address and use it

will iam_ b_ No ble at msn daught com
*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

William B Noble (don't reply to this address) wrote in
article ...


you are having rust problems because brake fluid is hydroscopic


"Hydroscopic" refers to a hydroscope - an optical device used for viewing
objects below the water's surface.

Correct term is hyGroscopic.....absorbing or attracting moisture from the
air.

Common error...........


Alternatively, if you
are careful, you can use DOT 5 fluid, which is hydrophobic,

Meaning it does NOT absorb moisture. Having litrtle or no affinity for
water.

Therefore, any moisture in the system is NOT suspended in the fluid. It
goes, instead, to the lowest point usually the calipers and wheel
cylinders.

ALL braking systems have moisture in them.......

And, water is heavier than any brake fluid......



but you
have to be careful to not entrap air bubbles as you pour it into the
master cylinder.

I've seen anal-types pour DOT 5 ever so slowly into the M.C., then pump the
schidt out of it to bleed the brakes........

AND, you NEVER want to use DOT 5 with ABS........EVER!!!! ......for the
very same aeration reasons.


extensive tests have been done with DOT 5

......which concur with what I stated above.



REAL race cars are now using DOT 5.1 - drivers, crew chiefs, and teams
being fed up with spongy pedals and losing brakes when tiny pockets of
water in the calipers turn to compressable steam from brake heat.

A couple of tips:

Sleeving should be done with stainless steel. If it is being done
with brass, find another shop.

The best sleeving I've seen entails putting a thread inside the
cylinder, with a matching thread on the outside of the sleeve. The
sleeve is then screwed into the cylinder (with appropriate goop).
Such a sleeve will not move, and will not leak. Takes a machinist who
care to do it, though.

I recommend Autosport Seattle, 2121 Westlake Ave., Seattle 98121
(206.621.1940), http://www.autosportseattle.com/. Their sleeving is
fantastic.

Eelloin



On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 22:37:02 -0700, "William B Noble (don't reply to
this address)" wrote:

Glenn - contact white post restorations, they offer a brake cylinder
sleeving service to the old car restoration hobby - I've used them for
work on my 51 dodge - you mail them the stuff, they sleeve it and send
it back -

there are other services that specialize in sleeving Corvette calipers
especially - quite a few of them can be found in Hemmings motor news -
I have not personally used any of those.

you are having rust problems because brake fluid is hydroscopic and
absorbs water. to avoid this, change your brake fluid every year, or
every other year. If you do this, you will have no corrosion and your
brake hydraulic stuff will last almost forever. Alternatively, if you
are careful, you can use DOT 5 fluid, which is hydrophobic, but you
have to be careful to not entrap air bubbles as you pour it into the
master cylinder. I have used DOT 5 in several cars, in some it leaked
out (because it does't cause seals to swell like the glycol fluid), in
others it was OK. your vette will probably be OK.

extensive tests have been done with DOT 5
Bill

www.wbnoble.com

to contact me, do not reply to this message,
instead correct this address and use it

will iam_ b_ No ble at msn daught com
*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

There has been quite a discussion on SS versus brass for sleeving. If
you want to pursue this, suggest you contact White Post directly. I
am very happy with the brass sleeved cylinders. Perhaps the
difference is racing (e.g. the autosport site) versus classic car
restoration - I have no opinion to offer RE racing applications, nor
sadly do I recall the gist of the pro/con arguements - suffice it to
say that at the time (a decade ago?) I was convinced that for my
purposes brass was the proper solution.


On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 06:55:36 -0700, Eel Loin
wrote:


A couple of tips:

Sleeving should be done with stainless steel. If it is being done
with brass, find another shop.

The best sleeving I've seen entails putting a thread inside the
cylinder, with a matching thread on the outside of the sleeve. The
sleeve is then screwed into the cylinder (with appropriate goop).
Such a sleeve will not move, and will not leak. Takes a machinist who
care to do it, though.

I recommend Autosport Seattle, 2121 Westlake Ave., Seattle 98121
(206.621.1940), http://www.autosportseattle.com/. Their sleeving is
fantastic.

Eelloin



On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 22:37:02 -0700, "William B Noble (don't reply to
this address)" wrote:

Glenn - contact white post restorations, they offer a brake cylinder
sleeving service to the old car restoration hobby - I've used them for
work on my 51 dodge - you mail them the stuff, they sleeve it and send
it back -

there are other services that specialize in sleeving Corvette calipers
especially - quite a few of them can be found in Hemmings motor news -
I have not personally used any of those.

you are having rust problems because brake fluid is hydroscopic and
absorbs water. to avoid this, change your brake fluid every year, or
every other year. If you do this, you will have no corrosion and your
brake hydraulic stuff will last almost forever. Alternatively, if you
are careful, you can use DOT 5 fluid, which is hydrophobic, but you
have to be careful to not entrap air bubbles as you pour it into the
master cylinder. I have used DOT 5 in several cars, in some it leaked
out (because it does't cause seals to swell like the glycol fluid), in
others it was OK. your vette will probably be OK.

extensive tests have been done with DOT 5
Bill

www.wbnoble.com

to contact me, do not reply to this message,
instead correct this address and use it

will iam_ b_ No ble at msn daught com
*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***
Bill

www.wbnoble.com

to contact me, do not reply to this message,
instead correct this address and use it

will iam_ b_ No ble at msn daught com
*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

Thanks Bill,
There are many well known sources for sleeved cylinders. I want to do it
myself
I did find out that I can get the dual Master cylinder at normal supply
houses. A 67 Camaro Drum/Drum power brake cylinder is a direct replacement
with the proper valves for drum brakes. Disk master cylinders have no
valves to hold the fluid from going back into the resivoir.

Glenn
"William B Noble (don't reply to this address)" wrote
in message ...
Glenn - contact white post restorations, they offer a brake cylinder
sleeving service to the old car restoration hobby - I've used them for
work on my 51 dodge - you mail them the stuff, they sleeve it and send
it back -

there are other services that specialize in sleeving Corvette calipers
especially - quite a few of them can be found in Hemmings motor news -
I have not personally used any of those.

you are having rust problems because brake fluid is hydroscopic and
absorbs water. to avoid this, change your brake fluid every year, or
every other year. If you do this, you will have no corrosion and your
brake hydraulic stuff will last almost forever. Alternatively, if you
are careful, you can use DOT 5 fluid, which is hydrophobic, but you
have to be careful to not entrap air bubbles as you pour it into the
master cylinder. I have used DOT 5 in several cars, in some it leaked
out (because it does't cause seals to swell like the glycol fluid), in
others it was OK. your vette will probably be OK.

extensive tests have been done with DOT 5
Bill

www.wbnoble.com

to contact me, do not reply to this message,
instead correct this address and use it

will iam_ b_ No ble at msn daught com
*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

In article , Eric R Snow says...


Some folks use brass instead of stainless

This I believe is what Joe Way, of Sierra Automotive does.

He was a regular on this ng, and I think he still maintains
that business. Check him via google.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Glenn wrote:
I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and
going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I
would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in
all the cylinders. I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out
ok either on the lathe or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for
the sleeves or where to get it. The car is not street worthy and is
going to be going through a lot of other restoration but I would like
to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease of working on it.
I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the
process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder
and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or
disk/disk vehicles.
TIA
Glenn


J&D Corvette in Bellflower California sells a full conversion that includes
stainless calipers.
They are definitely a great resource for this sort of project.
Get a hold of Woody Park.


--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:13:45 -0700, "Glenn" wrote:

I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going
away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to
convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I
am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or
the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it.
The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other
restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease
of working on it.
I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I
would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as
I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.
TIA
Glenn



Dual master cylinders were in use with drums all 'round a long time before
disks were in use.


Mark Rand
RTFM

"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:13:45 -0700, "Glenn" wrote:

I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going
away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to
convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders.
I
am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or
the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get
it.
The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of
other
restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for
ease
of working on it.
I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process.
I
would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes
as
I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.
TIA
Glenn



Dual master cylinders were in use with drums all 'round a long time before
disks were in use.


Mark Rand

Mark, any idea what modle/year chevy master cylinder would replace the
single on my power brakes? I have done a lot of reading/looking and have
not found anything for cars.
Glenn

Glenn wrote:

I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I
would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as
I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.
TIA
Glenn



I installed a dual master cylinder on my 1951 Chevrolet 1/2 ton pickup
truck with drum brakes front and rear, and it has been working fine for
over 7 years. It took a little doing to come up with a cylinder that
would work, since the majority of dual master installations seem to be
on vehicles with power brakes and I needed something that would work
with manual braking. Your rusting problem is probably from moisture
that is absorbed by old-style brake fluid. Changing to the newer
silicone fluid should eliminate the rust, but as I understand it you
will need to completely clean the brake system of all traces of the old
fluid first.

Mike

"KyMike" wrote in message
oups.com...

Glenn wrote:

I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process.
I
would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes
as
I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.
TIA
Glenn



I installed a dual master cylinder on my 1951 Chevrolet 1/2 ton pickup
truck with drum brakes front and rear, and it has been working fine for
over 7 years. It took a little doing to come up with a cylinder that
would work, since the majority of dual master installations seem to be
on vehicles with power brakes and I needed something that would work
with manual braking. Your rusting problem is probably from moisture
that is absorbed by old-style brake fluid. Changing to the newer
silicone fluid should eliminate the rust, but as I understand it you
will need to completely clean the brake system of all traces of the old
fluid first.

Mike

LOL .. that is exactly why I want to go to dual MC .. I recall all to
clearly trying to drive down the road and add brake fluid to the resivoir
between my feet so I might be able to stop at the next light I had a 40
Chev 1/2T and a 57 Chev 1/2T They both had a habit of dropping the pedal to
the floor at any whim. I even took the 40 in and had a brake shop go
through the whole thing. The only adjusted one end of the slave cylinders
and the first time I had to hit the brakes hard the seals blew out.
Any ideas on where to look for a dual M/C replacement for 63 power brakes?
All the dual M/C vettes are disk drum and I sorta want to stay with the drum
drum.
Glenn

Glenn
A good independent auto parts store, or maybe one of the Corvette
restoration specialists would have been down this route many times, and
accumulated the right books and interchanges. I used to do this for
customers occasionally, using a picture/sizes reference book that
Raybestos used to print. I haven't seen one in years, but I bet I have a
copy out at the shop....somewhere.

Not sure what a SWC is. Will it see racetrack duty? If not, I'll
second the suggestion for pure silicone brake fluid. It will end your
corrosion issues. However, when it get racing-brakes-hot, it becomes
slightly compressible and you can get a soft pedal at the exact times
when you most want a HARD pedal.
I have used it on a street-driven early Mustang, and a Lancia
autocross car, with excellent results.
- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX

Glenn wrote:
"KyMike" wrote in message
oups.com...
Glenn wrote:

I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process.
I
would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes
as
I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.
TIA
Glenn


I installed a dual master cylinder on my 1951 Chevrolet 1/2 ton pickup
truck with drum brakes front and rear, and it has been working fine for
over 7 years. It took a little doing to come up with a cylinder that
would work, since the majority of dual master installations seem to be
on vehicles with power brakes and I needed something that would work
with manual braking. Your rusting problem is probably from moisture
that is absorbed by old-style brake fluid. Changing to the newer
silicone fluid should eliminate the rust, but as I understand it you
will need to completely clean the brake system of all traces of the old
fluid first.

Mike

LOL .. that is exactly why I want to go to dual MC .. I recall all to
clearly trying to drive down the road and add brake fluid to the resivoir
between my feet so I might be able to stop at the next light I had a 40
Chev 1/2T and a 57 Chev 1/2T They both had a habit of dropping the pedal to
the floor at any whim. I even took the 40 in and had a brake shop go
through the whole thing. The only adjusted one end of the slave cylinders
and the first time I had to hit the brakes hard the seals blew out.
Any ideas on where to look for a dual M/C replacement for 63 power brakes?
All the dual M/C vettes are disk drum and I sorta want to stay with the drum
drum.
Glenn

Ditto Dot 5 silicone fluid. I bought an 86 Nissan Maxima new and changed
the brake fluid to silicone the next day. I'm still driving it and all the
parts exposed to the fluid are the original parts. The brakes have never
shown any problems and they have been inspected regularly.

Randy


"Rex B" wrote in message
...
Glenn
A good independent auto parts store, or maybe one of the Corvette
restoration specialists would have been down this route many times, and
accumulated the right books and interchanges. I used to do this for
customers occasionally, using a picture/sizes reference book that
Raybestos used to print. I haven't seen one in years, but I bet I have a
copy out at the shop....somewhere.

Not sure what a SWC is. Will it see racetrack duty? If not, I'll second
the suggestion for pure silicone brake fluid. It will end your corrosion
issues. However, when it get racing-brakes-hot, it becomes slightly
compressible and you can get a soft pedal at the exact times when you most
want a HARD pedal.
I have used it on a street-driven early Mustang, and a Lancia autocross
car, with excellent results.
- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX

Glenn wrote:
"KyMike" wrote in message
oups.com...
Glenn wrote:

I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the
process. I
would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum
brakes as
I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.
TIA
Glenn


I installed a dual master cylinder on my 1951 Chevrolet 1/2 ton pickup
truck with drum brakes front and rear, and it has been working fine for
over 7 years. It took a little doing to come up with a cylinder that
would work, since the majority of dual master installations seem to be
on vehicles with power brakes and I needed something that would work
with manual braking. Your rusting problem is probably from moisture
that is absorbed by old-style brake fluid. Changing to the newer
silicone fluid should eliminate the rust, but as I understand it you
will need to completely clean the brake system of all traces of the old
fluid first.

Mike

LOL .. that is exactly why I want to go to dual MC .. I recall all to
clearly trying to drive down the road and add brake fluid to the resivoir
between my feet so I might be able to stop at the next light I had a
40 Chev 1/2T and a 57 Chev 1/2T They both had a habit of dropping the
pedal to the floor at any whim. I even took the 40 in and had a brake
shop go through the whole thing. The only adjusted one end of the slave
cylinders and the first time I had to hit the brakes hard the seals blew
out.
Any ideas on where to look for a dual M/C replacement for 63 power
brakes? All the dual M/C vettes are disk drum and I sorta want to stay
with the drum drum.
Glenn

Rex B wrote in article
...

Not sure what a SWC is.

My guess is he means "Split Window Coupe" .......


...........kind of a redundancy - "1963 Corvette Coupe" and "Split Window."

* wrote:
Rex B wrote in article
...
Not sure what a SWC is.

My guess is he means "Split Window Coupe" .......


..........kind of a redundancy - "1963 Corvette Coupe" and "Split Window."

Well, since so many of them at the time were "upgraded" to the 1964
one-piece window, it's probably worth noting if it's still original.

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 10:28:57 -0500, Rex B
wrote:

Glenn
A good independent auto parts store, or maybe one of the Corvette
restoration specialists would have been down this route many times, and
accumulated the right books and interchanges. I used to do this for
customers occasionally, using a picture/sizes reference book that
Raybestos used to print. I haven't seen one in years, but I bet I have a
copy out at the shop....somewhere.

Not sure what a SWC is.

SWC -- Split Window Coupe. First of the "stingrays"



Will it see racetrack duty? If not, I'll
second the suggestion for pure silicone brake fluid. It will end your
corrosion issues. However, when it get racing-brakes-hot, it becomes
slightly compressible and you can get a soft pedal at the exact times
when you most want a HARD pedal.
I have used it on a street-driven early Mustang, and a Lancia
autocross car, with excellent results.
- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX

Glenn wrote:
"KyMike" wrote in message
oups.com...
Glenn wrote:

I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process.
I
would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes
as
I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.
TIA
Glenn


I installed a dual master cylinder on my 1951 Chevrolet 1/2 ton pickup
truck with drum brakes front and rear, and it has been working fine for
over 7 years. It took a little doing to come up with a cylinder that
would work, since the majority of dual master installations seem to be
on vehicles with power brakes and I needed something that would work
with manual braking. Your rusting problem is probably from moisture
that is absorbed by old-style brake fluid. Changing to the newer
silicone fluid should eliminate the rust, but as I understand it you
will need to completely clean the brake system of all traces of the old
fluid first.

Mike

LOL .. that is exactly why I want to go to dual MC .. I recall all to
clearly trying to drive down the road and add brake fluid to the resivoir
between my feet so I might be able to stop at the next light I had a 40
Chev 1/2T and a 57 Chev 1/2T They both had a habit of dropping the pedal to
the floor at any whim. I even took the 40 in and had a brake shop go
through the whole thing. The only adjusted one end of the slave cylinders
and the first time I had to hit the brakes hard the seals blew out.
Any ideas on where to look for a dual M/C replacement for 63 power brakes?
All the dual M/C vettes are disk drum and I sorta want to stay with the drum
drum.
Glenn



*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

KyMike wrote in article
.com...




Your rusting problem is probably from moisture
that is absorbed by old-style brake fluid. Changing to the newer
silicone fluid should eliminate the rust, but as I understand it you
will need to completely clean the brake system of all traces of the old
fluid first.



While it is true that silicone fluid is NOT hygroscopic (water-absorbing),
it is ALSO true that since water is heavier than the silicone fluid, any
water in a silicone fluid environment heads right to the lowest point of
the system - usually the calipers and wheel cylinders - exacerbating the
rusting problem.

You are actually better off with DOT 5.1 glycol-based fluid. It has the
highest dry and wet boiling points of all brake fluids.....

.......and, it will suspend any moisture within the fluid - keeping it away
from the wheel cylinders and calipers.

In article ,
"Glenn" wrote:

I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going
away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to
convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I
am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or
the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it.
The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other
restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease
of working on it.
I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I
would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as
I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.

I had some like problems with old Volvos. Water would get in somehow,
over time. My solution was to periodically flush the entire brake
system with brand new fluid, thus getting rid of all water and dirt that
had somehow gotten in.

Joe Gwinn

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 17:51:15 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

I had some like problems with old Volvos. Water would get in somehow,
over time. My solution was to periodically flush the entire brake
system with brand new fluid, thus getting rid of all water and dirt that
had somehow gotten in.

Moisture comes in primarily through the flexible hoses and the vent on
the top of the master cylinder. The best solution is not DOT 5
Silicone which just masks the problem, allowing water droplet pooling
in the calipers, compressibility and ultimately causing more problems
that it claims to solve. The best solution is that adopted on some
modern vehicles especially from those manufacturers not obsessed with
zero maintenance for 100,000 miles and all the other crap - moisture
testing in the master cylinder reservoir at every service and/or
regular fluid changes.

Changing the fluid every year and using DOT 4 will suffice for the
majority of applications. Carried out with a pressure bleeder it
takes half an hour at most, I know some people that have spent many
more hours than that on attempting to solve the problems created by
the use of the "superior" silicone fluid.


--

"Glenn" wrote in message
...
I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going
away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to
convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I
am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or
the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it.
The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of
other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power
for ease of working on it.
I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process.
I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes
as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.
TIA
Glenn


Replace all the lines too, they are full of rust inside and the rust will
hold water and... You'll need an adjustable proportioning valve, the old
one will be wrong. Get new flexible lines too. No real need for the
sleeves if you replace everything and use DOT 4. Any short-cuts here and
you'll be walking, at best!

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:50:27 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


"Glenn" wrote in message
...
I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going
away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to
convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I
am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or
the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it.
The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of
other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power
for ease of working on it.
I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process.
I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes
as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.
TIA
Glenn


Replace all the lines too, they are full of rust inside and the rust will
hold water and... You'll need an adjustable proportioning valve, the old
one will be wrong. Get new flexible lines too. No real need for the
sleeves if you replace everything and use DOT 4. Any short-cuts here and
you'll be walking, at best!

Isn't silicone fluid DOT5???
*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

Isn't silicone fluid DOT5???

What I was told, might not be fact: DOT 5 won't absorb water so it can sit,
or, it can boil in racing situations. DOT 4 will keep water suspended and
protect the system.

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
et...

"Glenn" wrote in message
...
I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going
away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to
convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders.
I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe
or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get
it. The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of
other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power
for ease of working on it.
I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process.
I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum
brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk
vehicles.
TIA
Glenn


Replace all the lines too, they are full of rust inside and the rust will
hold water and... You'll need an adjustable proportioning valve, the old
one will be wrong. Get new flexible lines too. No real need for the
sleeves if you replace everything and use DOT 4. Any short-cuts here and
you'll be walking, at best!

LOL it IS a chebby after all You have to plan on walking.
As it turns out the previous owner made a "repair" to the fuel line when he
had the body off and the funky rubber hose he used went gushy inside and
plugged up the fuel line sooo. I get to pull the body off and check all the
other funky things he did and replace all those nice to get at with the body
off things. So yup new brake lines are definately on the list.
Glenn

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:01:24 -0700, "Glenn"
wrote:

LOL it IS a chebby after all You have to plan on walking.
As it turns out the previous owner made a "repair" to the fuel line when he
had the body off and the funky rubber hose he used went gushy inside and
plugged up the fuel line sooo.

That's not necessarily the fault of the hoses - the old stuff they
sold was not up to the Ethanol, Methanol, MTBE, and other funky stuff
they're putting in gasoline nowadays "for emissions".

When they started with MTBE I was changing Corvair fuel pumps about
once a month, usually pulled over to the side of the US-101, I-405 or
the I-10 - and invariably on the way IN to work, rarely going home.
All the pumps on the shelf were NOS with the old formula rubber in the
check valve and diaphragm material, and the rebuilders weren't going
to make any more till they sold off the old ones...

After a half-dozen I got it down to about 8 minutes to swap a pump,
I finally got mad enough and installed an electric fuel pump.

I get to pull the body off and check all the
other funky things he did and replace all those nice to get at with the body
off things. So yup new brake lines are definately on the list.
Glenn

You might want to do a bit of research first - get a copy of the
National Corvette Club Concours Judging Rules (IIRC they're the size
of a good urban phone book) which will give you hints on what to do
with the chassis off, and what NOT to do.

Like, you want to use OEM parts (like those brake hoses) whenever
possible, and the rules will have a long list of acceptable
substitutes if the OEM parts just flat aren't available any more.
Doesn't cost you that much more to scrounge up the right pieces and do
a nice job, and the car will be worth a lot more if the next person
you sell to is going to fix it up and show it.

And you do NOT want to (for example) wipe off or paint over any
grease-pencil (yellow, IIRC) 'build marks' on the top of the gas tank.
They use stupid esoteric stuff like that as a tie-breaker and they'll
get in there with mirrors to look. And then they check them against
the official code charts to make sure they're the real marks for that
car and not something you whipped up...

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:01:24 -0700, "Glenn"
wrote:

Snip...

And you do NOT want to (for example) wipe off or paint over any
grease-pencil (yellow, IIRC) 'build marks' on the top of the gas tank.
They use stupid esoteric stuff like that as a tie-breaker and they'll
get in there with mirrors to look. And then they check them against
the official code charts to make sure they're the real marks for that
car and not something you whipped up...

And I thought I didn't have enough to do...


-- Bruce --

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:01:24 -0700, "Glenn"
wrote:

LOL it IS a chebby after all You have to plan on walking.
As it turns out the previous owner made a "repair" to the fuel line when
he
had the body off and the funky rubber hose he used went gushy inside and
plugged up the fuel line sooo.

That's not necessarily the fault of the hoses - the old stuff they
sold was not up to the Ethanol, Methanol, MTBE, and other funky stuff
they're putting in gasoline nowadays "for emissions".

Well the "old stuff" in this case should have been a steel line. Most of
the clips that hold the line to the rail are also missing.

SNIP
I get to pull the body off and check all the
other funky things he did and replace all those nice to get at with the
body
off things. So yup new brake lines are definately on the list.
Glenn

You might want to do a bit of research first - get a copy of the
National Corvette Club Concours Judging Rules (IIRC they're the size
of a good urban phone book) which will give you hints on what to do
with the chassis off, and what NOT to do.

Like, you want to use OEM parts (like those brake hoses) whenever
possible, and the rules will have a long list of acceptable
substitutes if the OEM parts just flat aren't available any more.
Doesn't cost you that much more to scrounge up the right pieces and do
a nice job, and the car will be worth a lot more if the next person
you sell to is going to fix it up and show it.

And you do NOT want to (for example) wipe off or paint over any
grease-pencil (yellow, IIRC) 'build marks' on the top of the gas tank.
They use stupid esoteric stuff like that as a tie-breaker and they'll
get in there with mirrors to look. And then they check them against
the official code charts to make sure they're the real marks for that
car and not something you whipped up...

-- Bruce --

Unfortunately I am not the first to "work" on this machine They had the
body off and repainted the frame .. right over all the stencils and crayon
marks that show the number of shims. He also removed all the shims and
vibration dampers .. wanted to lower the center of gravity. The worst thing
he did by far though is pulling the original 327/300 and putting a 350 in
it. It has flared fenders and several other show killers. I can get the
"flair repair" kit for $70 a fender but there are so many other
"improvements" that this will always be classed as a "hot rod" and not a NM.
I have a correct block and could easily re-number the stamping to match. I
have been slowly accumulating the right pieces for most of the restore but
the one place I really want to deviate is on the brakes. And even there I
only want to go to dual MC. The original brakes ar quite adequate for
anything I am going to do with it.

This car is my wife's and she has had it since shortly after graduating from
High School in 72. Her ex is the one that took an axe to it with dreams of
making a race car. She just wants to be able to drive it again after it has
been sitting for close to 30 years. I know it would probably be cheaper and
more practical to just go buy a nice driver and sell this one for parts.
.... Just so you understand the situation I will be retiring shortly and
will have the time to devote to a major project like this soooo... My main
goal right now is to educate myself to the beasties peculiarities. I have
the shop manual and the suplement as well as the parts book. I have the
asembly manual on order and am getting into a couple of Vette forums. The
forums are not like the Porsche forums I am used to. Many Porsche drivers
actually do most of their own maintenance .. seems the older vette drivers
fix things with their check book

Probably way mor history than ya wanted to see but ..
Glenn

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:50:45 -0700, "Glenn"
wrote:

Probably way mor history than ya wanted to see but ..

Hey, you're talking to the guy who has the Corvair parked outside
that Mom bought as a 1-year-old used car. I could tell stories...

-- Bruce --

Tom Gardner wrote in article
. ..


Replace all the lines too, they are full of rust inside and the rust will

hold water and... You'll need an adjustable proportioning valve, the old

one will be wrong. Get new flexible lines too. No real need for the
sleeves if you replace everything and use DOT 4. Any short-cuts here and

you'll be walking, at best!



Why not use the latest 5.1 glycol-based fluid? It has the highest dry and
wet boiling points of all.

Tom Gardner wrote:
"Glenn" wrote in message
...
I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going
away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to
convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I
am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or
the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it.
The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of
other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power
for ease of working on it.
I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process.
I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes
as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.
TIA
Glenn


Replace all the lines too, they are full of rust inside and the rust will
hold water and... You'll need an adjustable proportioning valve, the old
one will be wrong. Get new flexible lines too. No real need for the
sleeves if you replace everything and use DOT 4. Any short-cuts here and
you'll be walking, at best!

I think you mean Dot 5, don't you? DOT 4 is little different from 3, and
is hygroscopic.

FWIW,

I had a similar problem with a '66 MGB. I solved the problem by switching to
DOT 5 (silicone) brake fluid. A machinist/prototyper/carbuilder told me
about this method.

You have to start with a fresh (newly rebuilt and purged system. We rebuilt
all the wheel, and Master Cylinders. and purged the rest with ether and blew
it all out good. It's been working like a champ for 8 years with @ 7 mo/yr
of storage in open barn.

What you are proposing is probably way overkill.

Various replies have mentioned silicon fluid and I can't help with its
pros or cons but have known a number of people to have had problems with
its use and some none. It seems to be a perennial question on car BBs
and many swear by it and just as many say to stay away as silicon
fluids seem to have their issues. Best you read up on the pros and cons
before deciding on which to use.

Glenn wrote:

I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going
away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to
convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I
am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or
the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it.
The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other
restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease
of working on it.
I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I
would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as
I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.
TIA
Glenn

Glenn wrote:
I would like to
convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders.


Joe Way used to post here. you might want to give him a call.

http://www.brakecylinder.com/



Kevin Gallimore

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"axolotl" wrote in message
...
Glenn wrote:
I would like to
convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders.


Joe Way used to post here. you might want to give him a call.

http://www.brakecylinder.com/



Kevin Gallimore

Great link and info. It looks like I wan to go with brass now
It would have to have a link to the old Gus Wilson stories...I am gonna be
wastin a bunch more time now I guess Ah well I gotta git into the
retired mode so it won't come as such a shock to the system in the next
couple of months
Glenn

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:13:45 -0700, Glenn wrote:
I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going
away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to
convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders.

Is there a reason you couldn't make new wheel cylinders out of, say,
stainless? I would imagine the collector car market is ready for such a
product.

I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I
would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as
I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.

I don't think the master cares what it's displacing volume to, as far as
disk vs drum. They're arranged diagonally, so you will have equal
volume on each, and equal pressure on each. Presumably that's already
balanced by design on your car.

Anyone done stainless brake cylinders? I made some stainless pistons
for disk brakes years ago and continue to be happy with them; any reason
not to expand that into the whole hydraulic actuator?

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:13:45 -0700, Glenn wrote:
I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going
away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like
to
convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders.

Is there a reason you couldn't make new wheel cylinders out of, say,
stainless? I would imagine the collector car market is ready for such a
product.

I hadn't thought of that.. and it could use the "B" word .. billit I
don't think you could sell many to the Corvette folk. They are really anal
about OEM and numbers matching and "correct" replacement. If you could make
it out of stainless by casting and somehow make it look like cast iron with
the correct numbers in the casting they may have an intrest. As for my
project they may be a great option.

I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process.
I
would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes
as
I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles.

I don't think the master cares what it's displacing volume to, as far as
disk vs drum. They're arranged diagonally, so you will have equal
volume on each, and equal pressure on each. Presumably that's already
balanced by design on your car.

Ok .. if that is the case I wouldn't have any problem finding a replacement.
I thought (for reasons unknown) that a Disk/Drum MC would need to output
more volume for the disks? Perhaps it equalizes out because the disk piston
don't have to travel as far as the drum pistons? Worst case I guess would
be that I need an adjustable proportioning valve.

Anyone done stainless brake cylinders? I made some stainless pistons
for disk brakes years ago and continue to be happy with them; any reason
not to expand that into the whole hydraulic actuator?