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Brake cylinder sleeving
I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going
away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it. The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease of working on it. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn |
Brake cylinder sleeving
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:13:45 -0700, "Glenn"
wrote: I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it. The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease of working on it. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn Greetings Glenn, Some folks use brass instead of stainless for sleeving brake cylinders. I would. As far as the rusting is concerned this means (probably) water in the system so how is it getting in? Since you are going through the whole thing anyway have you considered silicone based fluid? I think it's designated DOT4. It was used in postal jeeps. I took one of these apart to do other work and was amazed at the pristine look of the internal brake system parts. Zero corrosion. It may be that this stuff is unsuitable for use in a Corvette, and you would have to bleed the system completely, but you may want to look into it. |
Brake cylinder sleeving
Glenn wrote:
I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it. The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease of working on it. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn J&D Corvette in Bellflower California sells a full conversion that includes stainless calipers. They are definitely a great resource for this sort of project. Get a hold of Woody Park. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
Brake cylinder sleeving
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:13:45 -0700, "Glenn" wrote:
I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it. The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease of working on it. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn Dual master cylinders were in use with drums all 'round a long time before disks were in use. Mark Rand RTFM |
Brake cylinder sleeving
Glenn wrote: I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn I installed a dual master cylinder on my 1951 Chevrolet 1/2 ton pickup truck with drum brakes front and rear, and it has been working fine for over 7 years. It took a little doing to come up with a cylinder that would work, since the majority of dual master installations seem to be on vehicles with power brakes and I needed something that would work with manual braking. Your rusting problem is probably from moisture that is absorbed by old-style brake fluid. Changing to the newer silicone fluid should eliminate the rust, but as I understand it you will need to completely clean the brake system of all traces of the old fluid first. Mike |
Brake cylinder sleeving
In article ,
"Glenn" wrote: I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it. The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease of working on it. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. I had some like problems with old Volvos. Water would get in somehow, over time. My solution was to periodically flush the entire brake system with brand new fluid, thus getting rid of all water and dirt that had somehow gotten in. Joe Gwinn |
Brake cylinder sleeving
"Eric R Snow" wrote in message ... On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:13:45 -0700, "Glenn" wrote: I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it. The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease of working on it. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn Greetings Glenn, Some folks use brass instead of stainless for sleeving brake cylinders. I would. As far as the rusting is concerned this means (probably) water in the system so how is it getting in? Since you are going through the whole thing anyway have you considered silicone based fluid? I think it's designated DOT4. It was used in postal jeeps. I took one of these apart to do other work and was amazed at the pristine look of the internal brake system parts. Zero corrosion. It may be that this stuff is unsuitable for use in a Corvette, and you would have to bleed the system completely, but you may want to look into it. I hadn't thought of brass. I will look into that. I will be replacing virtually everything but the hardlines and even most of those will be replaced. I have seen stainless brake lines in a refit kit but am a bit leery of stainless brake lines as the fatigue factor could be a problem.. don't know just a baseless fear. As to the water getting in .. sitting in uncontrolled environment for several years tends to do that. It could be that the silicone will be a good cure but I was reading that water still gets into the system .. it just dosen't mix with the silcone based fluid like it does with the glycol based fluids. Thanks for the ideas. Glenn |
Brake cylinder sleeving
"Mark Rand" wrote in message ... On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:13:45 -0700, "Glenn" wrote: I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it. The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease of working on it. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn Dual master cylinders were in use with drums all 'round a long time before disks were in use. Mark Rand Mark, any idea what modle/year chevy master cylinder would replace the single on my power brakes? I have done a lot of reading/looking and have not found anything for cars. Glenn |
Brake cylinder sleeving
"KyMike" wrote in message oups.com... Glenn wrote: I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn I installed a dual master cylinder on my 1951 Chevrolet 1/2 ton pickup truck with drum brakes front and rear, and it has been working fine for over 7 years. It took a little doing to come up with a cylinder that would work, since the majority of dual master installations seem to be on vehicles with power brakes and I needed something that would work with manual braking. Your rusting problem is probably from moisture that is absorbed by old-style brake fluid. Changing to the newer silicone fluid should eliminate the rust, but as I understand it you will need to completely clean the brake system of all traces of the old fluid first. Mike LOL .. that is exactly why I want to go to dual MC .. I recall all to clearly trying to drive down the road and add brake fluid to the resivoir between my feet so I might be able to stop at the next light :) I had a 40 Chev 1/2T and a 57 Chev 1/2T They both had a habit of dropping the pedal to the floor at any whim. I even took the 40 in and had a brake shop go through the whole thing. The only adjusted one end of the slave cylinders and the first time I had to hit the brakes hard the seals blew out. Any ideas on where to look for a dual M/C replacement for 63 power brakes? All the dual M/C vettes are disk drum and I sorta want to stay with the drum drum. Glenn |
Brake cylinder sleeving
"Glenn" wrote in message ... I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it. The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease of working on it. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn Replace all the lines too, they are full of rust inside and the rust will hold water and... You'll need an adjustable proportioning valve, the old one will be wrong. Get new flexible lines too. No real need for the sleeves if you replace everything and use DOT 4. Any short-cuts here and you'll be walking, at best! |
Brake cylinder sleeving
FWIW,
I had a similar problem with a '66 MGB. I solved the problem by switching to DOT 5 (silicone) brake fluid. A machinist/prototyper/carbuilder told me about this method. You have to start with a fresh (newly rebuilt and purged system. We rebuilt all the wheel, and Master Cylinders. and purged the rest with ether and blew it all out good. It's been working like a champ for 8 years with @ 7 mo/yr of storage in open barn. What you are proposing is probably way overkill. |
Brake cylinder sleeving
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:22:37 -0700, "Glenn"
wrote: "Eric R Snow" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:13:45 -0700, "Glenn" wrote: I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it. The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease of working on it. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn Greetings Glenn, Some folks use brass instead of stainless for sleeving brake cylinders. I would. As far as the rusting is concerned this means (probably) water in the system so how is it getting in? Since you are going through the whole thing anyway have you considered silicone based fluid? I think it's designated DOT4. It was used in postal jeeps. I took one of these apart to do other work and was amazed at the pristine look of the internal brake system parts. Zero corrosion. It may be that this stuff is unsuitable for use in a Corvette, and you would have to bleed the system completely, but you may want to look into it. I hadn't thought of brass. I will look into that. I will be replacing virtually everything but the hardlines and even most of those will be replaced. I have seen stainless brake lines in a refit kit but am a bit leery of stainless brake lines as the fatigue factor could be a problem.. don't know just a baseless fear. As to the water getting in .. sitting in uncontrolled environment for several years tends to do that. It could be that the silicone will be a good cure but I was reading that water still gets into the system .. it just dosen't mix with the silcone based fluid like it does with the glycol based fluids. Thanks for the ideas. Glenn Glycol based fluids absorb water. So any water that enters will eventually be spread throughout the system. Silicone based fluids do not. Silicone based fluid systems may allow water into the master cylinder but I don't see how it would spread. The mail jeep cylinders all around were pristine looking inside. And I know for a fact that this fluid had been in the jeep for at least 12 years. But this is of course only one sample and may be a fluke. Have you heard of stainless tubing developing cracks sooner than plain steel tubing? Something you may not know is that stainless needs free oxygen to keep it corrosion free. The steel develops an oxide coating very quickly when exposed to air. This is what prevents further oxidation. Aluminum also does this. I can imagine a situation where stainless liners would corrode quickly. A couple marine examples: Washington State runs a bunch of ferries. Stainless piping that carries salt water is not used on these boats because of internal corrosion. At least one boat was built and delivered with stainless piping. The boat(s) was (were) returned to the builder to have the SS replaced. In my years working in machine shops near Puget Sound I have made several prop shafts. Most from monel or other high nickel alloys. Some prop shafts that I made were replacements. When this happened the old shaft was always brought in as a sample. The old prop shafts would be put on the stock rack for making odd parts. The stainless shafts always had what looked like worm holes that started at the prop end. These holes would wander down the length of the shaft. The deepest were nearly two feet long. They were caused by the shafts always being submerged in salt water. In the early 1980's it was discovered that the anerobic environment not only allowed the stainless to corrode (expected) but that it also allowed biodegradation of the stainless. This was discovered in the stainless coolant piping in a nuclear power plant. I hope you found the above interesting. ERS |
Brake cylinder sleeving
Glenn wrote:
I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. Joe Way used to post here. you might want to give him a call. http://www.brakecylinder.com/ Kevin Gallimore ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
Brake cylinder sleeving
Various replies have mentioned silicon fluid and I can't help with its
pros or cons but have known a number of people to have had problems with its use and some none. It seems to be a perennial question on car BBs and many swear by it and just as many say to stay away as silicon fluids seem to have their issues. Best you read up on the pros and cons before deciding on which to use. Glenn wrote: I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it. The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease of working on it. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn |
Brake cylinder sleeving
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:50:27 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote: "Glenn" wrote in message ... I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it. The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease of working on it. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn Replace all the lines too, they are full of rust inside and the rust will hold water and... You'll need an adjustable proportioning valve, the old one will be wrong. Get new flexible lines too. No real need for the sleeves if you replace everything and use DOT 4. Any short-cuts here and you'll be walking, at best! Isn't silicone fluid DOT5??? *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com *** |
Brake cylinder sleeving
Isn't silicone fluid DOT5??? What I was told, might not be fact: DOT 5 won't absorb water so it can sit, or, it can boil in racing situations. DOT 4 will keep water suspended and protect the system. |
Brake cylinder sleeving
In article , Eric R Snow says...
Some folks use brass instead of stainless This I believe is what Joe Way, of Sierra Automotive does. He was a regular on this ng, and I think he still maintains that business. Check him via google. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
Brake cylinder sleeving
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message et... "Glenn" wrote in message ... I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it. The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease of working on it. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn Replace all the lines too, they are full of rust inside and the rust will hold water and... You'll need an adjustable proportioning valve, the old one will be wrong. Get new flexible lines too. No real need for the sleeves if you replace everything and use DOT 4. Any short-cuts here and you'll be walking, at best! LOL it IS a chebby after all :) You have to plan on walking. As it turns out the previous owner made a "repair" to the fuel line when he had the body off and the funky rubber hose he used went gushy inside and plugged up the fuel line sooo. I get to pull the body off and check all the other funky things he did and replace all those nice to get at with the body off things. So yup new brake lines are definately on the list. Glenn |
Brake cylinder sleeving
"axolotl" wrote in message ... Glenn wrote: I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. Joe Way used to post here. you might want to give him a call. http://www.brakecylinder.com/ Kevin Gallimore Great link and info. It looks like I wan to go with brass now :) It would have to have a link to the old Gus Wilson stories...I am gonna be wastin a bunch more time now I guess :) Ah well I gotta git into the retired mode so it won't come as such a shock to the system in the next couple of months :) Glenn |
Brake cylinder sleeving
Tom Gardner wrote in article . .. Replace all the lines too, they are full of rust inside and the rust will hold water and... You'll need an adjustable proportioning valve, the old one will be wrong. Get new flexible lines too. No real need for the sleeves if you replace everything and use DOT 4. Any short-cuts here and you'll be walking, at best! Why not use the latest 5.1 glycol-based fluid? It has the highest dry and wet boiling points of all. |
Brake cylinder sleeving
KyMike wrote in article .com... Your rusting problem is probably from moisture that is absorbed by old-style brake fluid. Changing to the newer silicone fluid should eliminate the rust, but as I understand it you will need to completely clean the brake system of all traces of the old fluid first. While it is true that silicone fluid is NOT hygroscopic (water-absorbing), it is ALSO true that since water is heavier than the silicone fluid, any water in a silicone fluid environment heads right to the lowest point of the system - usually the calipers and wheel cylinders - exacerbating the rusting problem. You are actually better off with DOT 5.1 glycol-based fluid. It has the highest dry and wet boiling points of all brake fluids..... .......and, it will suspend any moisture within the fluid - keeping it away from the wheel cylinders and calipers. |
Brake cylinder sleeving
Tom Gardner wrote: "Glenn" wrote in message ... I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it. The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease of working on it. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn Replace all the lines too, they are full of rust inside and the rust will hold water and... You'll need an adjustable proportioning valve, the old one will be wrong. Get new flexible lines too. No real need for the sleeves if you replace everything and use DOT 4. Any short-cuts here and you'll be walking, at best! I think you mean Dot 5, don't you? DOT 4 is little different from 3, and is hygroscopic. |
Brake cylinder sleeving
Glenn
A good independent auto parts store, or maybe one of the Corvette restoration specialists would have been down this route many times, and accumulated the right books and interchanges. I used to do this for customers occasionally, using a picture/sizes reference book that Raybestos used to print. I haven't seen one in years, but I bet I have a copy out at the shop....somewhere. Not sure what a SWC is. Will it see racetrack duty? If not, I'll second the suggestion for pure silicone brake fluid. It will end your corrosion issues. However, when it get racing-brakes-hot, it becomes slightly compressible and you can get a soft pedal at the exact times when you most want a HARD pedal. I have used it on a street-driven early Mustang, and a Lancia autocross car, with excellent results. - - Rex Burkheimer WM Automotive Fort Worth TX Glenn wrote: "KyMike" wrote in message oups.com... Glenn wrote: I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn I installed a dual master cylinder on my 1951 Chevrolet 1/2 ton pickup truck with drum brakes front and rear, and it has been working fine for over 7 years. It took a little doing to come up with a cylinder that would work, since the majority of dual master installations seem to be on vehicles with power brakes and I needed something that would work with manual braking. Your rusting problem is probably from moisture that is absorbed by old-style brake fluid. Changing to the newer silicone fluid should eliminate the rust, but as I understand it you will need to completely clean the brake system of all traces of the old fluid first. Mike LOL .. that is exactly why I want to go to dual MC .. I recall all to clearly trying to drive down the road and add brake fluid to the resivoir between my feet so I might be able to stop at the next light :) I had a 40 Chev 1/2T and a 57 Chev 1/2T They both had a habit of dropping the pedal to the floor at any whim. I even took the 40 in and had a brake shop go through the whole thing. The only adjusted one end of the slave cylinders and the first time I had to hit the brakes hard the seals blew out. Any ideas on where to look for a dual M/C replacement for 63 power brakes? All the dual M/C vettes are disk drum and I sorta want to stay with the drum drum. Glenn |
Brake cylinder sleeving
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:01:24 -0700, "Glenn"
wrote: LOL it IS a chebby after all :) You have to plan on walking. As it turns out the previous owner made a "repair" to the fuel line when he had the body off and the funky rubber hose he used went gushy inside and plugged up the fuel line sooo. That's not necessarily the fault of the hoses - the old stuff they sold was not up to the Ethanol, Methanol, MTBE, and other funky stuff they're putting in gasoline nowadays "for emissions". When they started with MTBE I was changing Corvair fuel pumps about once a month, usually pulled over to the side of the US-101, I-405 or the I-10 - and invariably on the way IN to work, rarely going home. All the pumps on the shelf were NOS with the old formula rubber in the check valve and diaphragm material, and the rebuilders weren't going to make any more till they sold off the old ones... After a half-dozen I got it down to about 8 minutes to swap a pump, I finally got mad enough and installed an electric fuel pump. I get to pull the body off and check all the other funky things he did and replace all those nice to get at with the body off things. So yup new brake lines are definately on the list. Glenn You might want to do a bit of research first - get a copy of the National Corvette Club Concours Judging Rules (IIRC they're the size of a good urban phone book) which will give you hints on what to do with the chassis off, and what NOT to do. Like, you want to use OEM parts (like those brake hoses) whenever possible, and the rules will have a long list of acceptable substitutes if the OEM parts just flat aren't available any more. Doesn't cost you that much more to scrounge up the right pieces and do a nice job, and the car will be worth a lot more if the next person you sell to is going to fix it up and show it. And you do NOT want to (for example) wipe off or paint over any grease-pencil (yellow, IIRC) 'build marks' on the top of the gas tank. They use stupid esoteric stuff like that as a tie-breaker and they'll get in there with mirrors to look. And then they check them against the official code charts to make sure they're the real marks for that car and not something you whipped up... -- Bruce -- -- Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. |
Brake cylinder sleeving
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:01:24 -0700, "Glenn" wrote: Snip... And you do NOT want to (for example) wipe off or paint over any grease-pencil (yellow, IIRC) 'build marks' on the top of the gas tank. They use stupid esoteric stuff like that as a tie-breaker and they'll get in there with mirrors to look. And then they check them against the official code charts to make sure they're the real marks for that car and not something you whipped up... And I thought I didn't have enough to do... -- Bruce -- |
Brake cylinder sleeving
"Andrew VK3BFA" wrote in message oups.com... Glenn wrote: I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it. The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease of working on it. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn Even if you do the conversion, you will still have crap brakes. The fluid is hydroscopic - you need to drain the lines, flush them with alcohol at least every year. (its probably in the service manual for the car.) As your not running the car, you wouldnt have noticed the brakes would not have worked after a hard run when the steam vapour locked the hydraulic lines. More applicable to disk brakes but a posibility. I wouldn't run the old vette hard anyway. Parts are way to expensive :) I run the Porsche pretty hard at times and the fluid gets changed about twice a year. When the vette was on the road it didn't have much problem. The sitting is what is killing it. My mechanic measures the water content in the brake lines ever time he services my car - (yeh, slack, its twice a year) - and replaces the fluid if needed. He also measures the ph of the radiator coolant - that goes off too and will corrode out modern mixed metal cooling systems by electrolysis. (The last is most likely not an issue with an old vehicle like yours...) Well it has an aluminum radiator, aluminum expansion tank and aluminum intake. The Porsche is all aluminum and I use the orange antifreeze that seems to stay fresh longer and dosen't attack the aluminum. That is also what I run in the vette. The days of DYI car servicing for modern vehicles are just about over - like everything else, technology has moved on and unless you are bloody good, and do it full time, and continually retrain, SOMETHING will get ya. But learning about the new cars and the electronic controls is half the fun of working on them yourself :) About the only things I take to a shop are wheel alignments and waranty repairs. (I run Fords for the real drivers so I don't have to do that much ;)) Andrew VK3BFA. Glenn Glenn |
Brake cylinder sleeving
Ditto Dot 5 silicone fluid. I bought an 86 Nissan Maxima new and changed
the brake fluid to silicone the next day. I'm still driving it and all the parts exposed to the fluid are the original parts. The brakes have never shown any problems and they have been inspected regularly. Randy "Rex B" wrote in message ... Glenn A good independent auto parts store, or maybe one of the Corvette restoration specialists would have been down this route many times, and accumulated the right books and interchanges. I used to do this for customers occasionally, using a picture/sizes reference book that Raybestos used to print. I haven't seen one in years, but I bet I have a copy out at the shop....somewhere. Not sure what a SWC is. Will it see racetrack duty? If not, I'll second the suggestion for pure silicone brake fluid. It will end your corrosion issues. However, when it get racing-brakes-hot, it becomes slightly compressible and you can get a soft pedal at the exact times when you most want a HARD pedal. I have used it on a street-driven early Mustang, and a Lancia autocross car, with excellent results. - - Rex Burkheimer WM Automotive Fort Worth TX Glenn wrote: "KyMike" wrote in message oups.com... Glenn wrote: I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn I installed a dual master cylinder on my 1951 Chevrolet 1/2 ton pickup truck with drum brakes front and rear, and it has been working fine for over 7 years. It took a little doing to come up with a cylinder that would work, since the majority of dual master installations seem to be on vehicles with power brakes and I needed something that would work with manual braking. Your rusting problem is probably from moisture that is absorbed by old-style brake fluid. Changing to the newer silicone fluid should eliminate the rust, but as I understand it you will need to completely clean the brake system of all traces of the old fluid first. Mike LOL .. that is exactly why I want to go to dual MC .. I recall all to clearly trying to drive down the road and add brake fluid to the resivoir between my feet so I might be able to stop at the next light :) I had a 40 Chev 1/2T and a 57 Chev 1/2T They both had a habit of dropping the pedal to the floor at any whim. I even took the 40 in and had a brake shop go through the whole thing. The only adjusted one end of the slave cylinders and the first time I had to hit the brakes hard the seals blew out. Any ideas on where to look for a dual M/C replacement for 63 power brakes? All the dual M/C vettes are disk drum and I sorta want to stay with the drum drum. Glenn |
Brake cylinder sleeving
On 24 Apr 2006 05:35:06 -0700, "Andrew VK3BFA"
wrote: The days of DYI car servicing for modern vehicles are just about over - like everything else, technology has moved on and unless you are bloody good, and do it full time, and continually retrain, SOMETHING will get ya. Just about, no - You can still do a lot of car servicing yourself, you just have to be honest with yourself about what you /don't/ know. What procedures (or parts of them) you can do all by yourself, and which ones are best left to the full-time mechanics. And the wisdom to know the difference. Hint: The computer isn't omniscient and doesn't know what the problem is - it just tells you what abnormal sensor readings it's seeing, and that gives you a clue as to where to start looking. Helps to have a full-timer as a friend - you can pull the codes from the computer, get a solid list of signs and symptoms, read them off, and before you finish reading the list he goes "Oh that? The #3 Vacuum Switching Valve by the thermostat housing's bad." -- Bruce -- -- Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. |
Brake cylinder sleeving
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:13:45 -0700, Glenn wrote:
I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. Is there a reason you couldn't make new wheel cylinders out of, say, stainless? I would imagine the collector car market is ready for such a product. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. I don't think the master cares what it's displacing volume to, as far as disk vs drum. They're arranged diagonally, so you will have equal volume on each, and equal pressure on each. Presumably that's already balanced by design on your car. Anyone done stainless brake cylinders? I made some stainless pistons for disk brakes years ago and continue to be happy with them; any reason not to expand that into the whole hydraulic actuator? |
Brake cylinder sleeving
Rex B wrote in article ... Not sure what a SWC is. My guess is he means "Split Window Coupe" ....... ...........kind of a redundancy - "1963 Corvette Coupe" and "Split Window." |
Brake cylinder sleeving
On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 10:28:57 -0500, Rex B
wrote: Glenn A good independent auto parts store, or maybe one of the Corvette restoration specialists would have been down this route many times, and accumulated the right books and interchanges. I used to do this for customers occasionally, using a picture/sizes reference book that Raybestos used to print. I haven't seen one in years, but I bet I have a copy out at the shop....somewhere. Not sure what a SWC is. SWC -- Split Window Coupe. First of the "stingrays" Will it see racetrack duty? If not, I'll second the suggestion for pure silicone brake fluid. It will end your corrosion issues. However, when it get racing-brakes-hot, it becomes slightly compressible and you can get a soft pedal at the exact times when you most want a HARD pedal. I have used it on a street-driven early Mustang, and a Lancia autocross car, with excellent results. - - Rex Burkheimer WM Automotive Fort Worth TX Glenn wrote: "KyMike" wrote in message oups.com... Glenn wrote: I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn I installed a dual master cylinder on my 1951 Chevrolet 1/2 ton pickup truck with drum brakes front and rear, and it has been working fine for over 7 years. It took a little doing to come up with a cylinder that would work, since the majority of dual master installations seem to be on vehicles with power brakes and I needed something that would work with manual braking. Your rusting problem is probably from moisture that is absorbed by old-style brake fluid. Changing to the newer silicone fluid should eliminate the rust, but as I understand it you will need to completely clean the brake system of all traces of the old fluid first. Mike LOL .. that is exactly why I want to go to dual MC .. I recall all to clearly trying to drive down the road and add brake fluid to the resivoir between my feet so I might be able to stop at the next light :) I had a 40 Chev 1/2T and a 57 Chev 1/2T They both had a habit of dropping the pedal to the floor at any whim. I even took the 40 in and had a brake shop go through the whole thing. The only adjusted one end of the slave cylinders and the first time I had to hit the brakes hard the seals blew out. Any ideas on where to look for a dual M/C replacement for 63 power brakes? All the dual M/C vettes are disk drum and I sorta want to stay with the drum drum. Glenn *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com *** |
Brake cylinder sleeving
On 24 Apr 2006 05:35:06 -0700, "Andrew VK3BFA"
wrote: The days of DYI car servicing for modern vehicles are just about over - like everything else, technology has moved on and unless you are bloody good, and do it full time, and continually retrain, SOMETHING will get ya. He Had a conversation with a new kid at the track yesterday, shaking down his 1985 RX7 race car. "I don't know much about these carburetors. Fuel injection, ECMs and all that I'm good with, but I've never messed with a carburetor" |
Brake cylinder sleeving
* wrote: Rex B wrote in article ... Not sure what a SWC is. My guess is he means "Split Window Coupe" ....... ..........kind of a redundancy - "1963 Corvette Coupe" and "Split Window." Well, since so many of them at the time were "upgraded" to the 1964 one-piece window, it's probably worth noting if it's still original. |
Brake cylinder sleeving
On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:46:46 -0500, Rex B
wrote: On 24 Apr 2006 05:35:06 -0700, "Andrew VK3BFA" wrote: The days of DYI car servicing for modern vehicles are just about over - like everything else, technology has moved on and unless you are bloody good, and do it full time, and continually retrain, SOMETHING will get ya. He Had a conversation with a new kid at the track yesterday, shaking down his 1985 RX7 race car. "I don't know much about these carburetors. Fuel injection, ECMs and all that I'm good with, but I've never messed with a carburetor" Show him a Uni-Syn and explain how it works. That'll get his eyes to glaze over... ;-) -- Bruce -- -- Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. |
Brake cylinder sleeving
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message ... On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:01:24 -0700, "Glenn" wrote: LOL it IS a chebby after all :) You have to plan on walking. As it turns out the previous owner made a "repair" to the fuel line when he had the body off and the funky rubber hose he used went gushy inside and plugged up the fuel line sooo. That's not necessarily the fault of the hoses - the old stuff they sold was not up to the Ethanol, Methanol, MTBE, and other funky stuff they're putting in gasoline nowadays "for emissions". Well the "old stuff" in this case should have been a steel line. Most of the clips that hold the line to the rail are also missing. SNIP I get to pull the body off and check all the other funky things he did and replace all those nice to get at with the body off things. So yup new brake lines are definately on the list. Glenn You might want to do a bit of research first - get a copy of the National Corvette Club Concours Judging Rules (IIRC they're the size of a good urban phone book) which will give you hints on what to do with the chassis off, and what NOT to do. Like, you want to use OEM parts (like those brake hoses) whenever possible, and the rules will have a long list of acceptable substitutes if the OEM parts just flat aren't available any more. Doesn't cost you that much more to scrounge up the right pieces and do a nice job, and the car will be worth a lot more if the next person you sell to is going to fix it up and show it. And you do NOT want to (for example) wipe off or paint over any grease-pencil (yellow, IIRC) 'build marks' on the top of the gas tank. They use stupid esoteric stuff like that as a tie-breaker and they'll get in there with mirrors to look. And then they check them against the official code charts to make sure they're the real marks for that car and not something you whipped up... -- Bruce -- Unfortunately I am not the first to "work" on this machine :( They had the body off and repainted the frame .. right over all the stencils and crayon marks that show the number of shims. He also removed all the shims and vibration dampers .. wanted to lower the center of gravity. The worst thing he did by far though is pulling the original 327/300 and putting a 350 in it. It has flared fenders and several other show killers. I can get the "flair repair" kit for $70 a fender but there are so many other "improvements" that this will always be classed as a "hot rod" and not a NM. I have a correct block and could easily re-number the stamping to match. I have been slowly accumulating the right pieces for most of the restore but the one place I really want to deviate is on the brakes. And even there I only want to go to dual MC. The original brakes ar quite adequate for anything I am going to do with it. This car is my wife's and she has had it since shortly after graduating from High School in 72. Her ex is the one that took an axe to it with dreams of making a race car. She just wants to be able to drive it again after it has been sitting for close to 30 years. I know it would probably be cheaper and more practical to just go buy a nice driver and sell this one for parts. .... Just so you understand the situation :) I will be retiring shortly and will have the time to devote to a major project like this soooo... My main goal right now is to educate myself to the beasties peculiarities. I have the shop manual and the suplement as well as the parts book. I have the asembly manual on order and am getting into a couple of Vette forums. The forums are not like the Porsche forums I am used to. Many Porsche drivers actually do most of their own maintenance .. seems the older vette drivers fix things with their check book :) Probably way mor history than ya wanted to see but .. Glenn |
Brake cylinder sleeving
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message ... On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:46:46 -0500, Rex B wrote: On 24 Apr 2006 05:35:06 -0700, "Andrew VK3BFA" wrote: The days of DYI car servicing for modern vehicles are just about over - like everything else, technology has moved on and unless you are bloody good, and do it full time, and continually retrain, SOMETHING will get ya. He Had a conversation with a new kid at the track yesterday, shaking down his 1985 RX7 race car. "I don't know much about these carburetors. Fuel injection, ECMs and all that I'm good with, but I've never messed with a carburetor" Show him a Uni-Syn and explain how it works. That'll get his eyes to glaze over... ;-) -- Bruce -- I still get nostalgic and my eyes glaze over when I happen to dig deep enough to find my carefully stored uni syn. Glenn |
Brake cylinder sleeving
"Dave Hinz" wrote in message ... On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:13:45 -0700, Glenn wrote: I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. Is there a reason you couldn't make new wheel cylinders out of, say, stainless? I would imagine the collector car market is ready for such a product. I hadn't thought of that.. and it could use the "B" word .. billit :) I don't think you could sell many to the Corvette folk. They are really anal about OEM and numbers matching and "correct" replacement. If you could make it out of stainless by casting and somehow make it look like cast iron with the correct numbers in the casting they may have an intrest. As for my project they may be a great option. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. I don't think the master cares what it's displacing volume to, as far as disk vs drum. They're arranged diagonally, so you will have equal volume on each, and equal pressure on each. Presumably that's already balanced by design on your car. Ok .. if that is the case I wouldn't have any problem finding a replacement. I thought (for reasons unknown) that a Disk/Drum MC would need to output more volume for the disks? Perhaps it equalizes out because the disk piston don't have to travel as far as the drum pistons? Worst case I guess would be that I need an adjustable proportioning valve. Anyone done stainless brake cylinders? I made some stainless pistons for disk brakes years ago and continue to be happy with them; any reason not to expand that into the whole hydraulic actuator? |
Brake cylinder sleeving
"Rex B" wrote in message ... * wrote: Rex B wrote in article ... Not sure what a SWC is. My guess is he means "Split Window Coupe" ....... ..........kind of a redundancy - "1963 Corvette Coupe" and "Split Window." Well, since so many of them at the time were "upgraded" to the 1964 one-piece window, it's probably worth noting if it's still original. I didn't use the word coupe. I apologize for using a not so common acronym. I have just been reading so much about it that it sorta popped out :) This one does have the split window. I really hope I never get a broken rear window in this rig .. Prices are more like airplane parts than car parts LOL Glenn |
Brake cylinder sleeving
On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:00:17 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Glenn" quickly quoth: "Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:46:46 -0500, Rex B wrote: On 24 Apr 2006 05:35:06 -0700, "Andrew VK3BFA" wrote: The days of DYI car servicing for modern vehicles are just about over - like everything else, technology has moved on and unless you are bloody good, and do it full time, and continually retrain, SOMETHING will get ya. He Had a conversation with a new kid at the track yesterday, shaking down his 1985 RX7 race car. "I don't know much about these carburetors. Fuel injection, ECMs and all that I'm good with, but I've never messed with a carburetor" Show him a Uni-Syn and explain how it works. That'll get his eyes to glaze over... ;-) -- Bruce -- I still get nostalgic and my eyes glaze over when I happen to dig deep enough to find my carefully stored uni syn. Are those a carb flow synchronizer? Early in my wrenching career in Fallbrook, CA, I had a guy bring a Lamborghini to me for a tuneup once. I wiped my hands, grabbed a new shop towel and some hand cleaner, then got new shop towels and popped the cowl only to just about soil me drawers when I saw the V-12 with a dozen carbs on it. I would have jumped at the chance to test drive it on the road between Bonsall and Fallbrook, or take it up I-15 at 165mph, but I didn't have a bloody synchronizer. I told him that, too. g My boss just laughed and sent him to Sandy Eggo. I think it was a Miura. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_Miura I did, however, have a chance to drive a Porsche 928 at 125mph on Highway 78, a teeny freeway in North San Diego County in 1987. It was 10am, a fresh beer was between my legs as I brought her up to speed in a few short seconds, and then had to hit the brakes hard due to all the traffic. Yeah, I lived fast, dangerous, and stupid back in the last year of my drinking days. It sure was fun, though. Now I'd love to get my hands on one of these SUVs for S&Gs: http://www.car.co.nz/4wd.asp?articleid=5215 ------------------------------------------------------------- give me The Luxuries Of Life * http://www.diversify.com i can live without the necessities * 2 Tee collections online ------------------------------------------------------------- |
Brake cylinder sleeving
On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:50:45 -0700, "Glenn"
wrote: Probably way mor history than ya wanted to see but .. Hey, you're talking to the guy who has the Corvair parked outside that Mom bought as a 1-year-old used car. I could tell stories... -- Bruce -- |
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