"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message

-snip-


1) You are switching the neutral That should not be done in US
practice, as it leaves parts of the motor floating high.

huh. thanks. i'm surprised, well, i don't want to do anything that's not
approved.


2) You have hot and neutral carried through to pins 1 and 4

****. i didn't even notice that teh hot was hot all the way through to the
motor, i was so focused on getting the wires in the right position. that's
part of the reason i decided to bag trying to wire it up to 220 because i'd
have one lead hot all the to the motor there too. just as a fine point and
i don't want to contradict you but i think the neutral is switched, when the
drum switch is in the middle postion it's off. that's what i think anyhow.
dang about the hot though!


Unswitched. This is also not how it should be done. The
unswitched hot is another safety problem, leaving the internals
of the motor hot while it is switched to stop -- and if a widing

yeah, that's part of the reason i figured i didn't want to wire it up to
220, because one lead would be hot all the time. i figured i could just
unplug it, but reading here in the past you guys have said stuff like,
"yeah, but what if you sell it?" or "what if someone else uses it?" so, i
figured i'd better be safe, but i didn't notice the hot was hot all the way
to the motor with this 110 set up too! dang.


grounds to the motor frame inside, it could either render the
motor housing and the lathe hot, thus risking shocking you. Or
-- if you have safety grounds connected (which you have not
shown) it can leave the motor drawing current, and perhaps burn
the (already damaged) windings up -- and possibly start a fire.

i try to be safe. would rather be safe than sorry.



I spent some time posting a text description of how to wire for
240V -- but I don't see it yet, so I can't expect you to have seen it
either.

The first thing that I need to stress here is that you need to
run a safety ground wire from the motor to the case of the switch, to

yeah, was gonna. was so focused on just trying to get the motor to run,
forward adn reverse, was leaving that part out. fully intend(ed) to run a
green ground wire throughout. there's a green screw in the internal wireing
area. thanks.


the frame of the lathe, and on to the safety ground pin in the wall
plug. This wire should be green, and there are probably screws inside
the motor wiring box with their heads painted green, and maybe one in
the drum switch box (though that may be old enough so they didn't paint
the screw head green.)

If you really want to run on 120V (I forget what horsepower
rating this motor is, but a 1-1/2 HP motor run on 120V can sometimes
trip the circuit breaker on starting surges. 240V is by far the better


i preferred wiring it to 220/240, heard motors are more efficient that way,
but the 220 wiring was totally boggling my mind. it's a 3/4 horse motor.


choice for something which you will be starting and stopping frequently

Your wiring shown probably would run -- but it is unsafe.


ok. back to the drawing board.




Check out what I wrote in the other article. I think that
should do it for you.


thanks. hope so. i briefly scanned it, will get back to it in detail after
this.



If you still have questions -- or can't find the article -- send
me an e-mail and I'll dive back into it.

But -- if you *really* want to run at 120V, let me describe how



thanks very much for taking the time to help me with this. i had no idea
where to even start to look for information about this. (figured i was
going to have to talk to an electrician and they always seem to want money.)
:-(



to do it *safely*. I'm going to be assuming that the power is brought
into the drum switch as you have shown in your fwd-rvse.jpg image.

I'm also going to label the switch terminals as follows:

(A) (B)


(C) (D)


(E) (F)

so I can talk about them, and you can sketch them out on paper if you so
desire.


i started to make a Paint drawing of your schematic and realized that i DO
want to (at least TRY) to wire it up to 220. so. i'll have to go read your
other post.


-snipped, for now-




And this should give you reversing operation at 120V. (As
suggested above -- 240V operation would probably be a better choice, and
that would be covered in my other article -- which you may be reading as
I type this one. :-)

Part of the problem here is that the motor's wiring scheme is
tailored to cookbook instructions, and actually hides the information
about what is inside. I wonder whether they have wiring instructions
for each brand of drum switch in addition to what instructions you found,


the drum switch has several different wiring diagrams printed on what
appeaers to be asbestos adhered to the curved sheet metal cover. i wanted
to scan it to show you guys but can't. the harbor freight instructions are
pretty basic, no drum switch instructions.



which were assuming that you either wanted the motor to always run
clockwise or always wanted it to run counter-clockwise -- and had no
need to switch it between those (which is what three-phase motors are
for, after all. :-)

that's what the HF instructions are like. one way or the other.


Let's try to sketch what is actually in that motor -- using "(#)"
to indicate a numbered terminal, and "(C)" to indicate a colored wire.
Note also that I use only numbers 1 though 4, so 'O' is a letter --
orange wire, not a number.

+----------------------------------------+
| |
| (1)+WWWWWWWWW-(W) |
| |
| (2) |
| |
| (3) |
| |
| (4)-WWWWWWWWW+(O) |
| |
| (B)-WWWWWWWWW--)|-o/o-(R) |
| |
+----------------------------------------+

"-)|-" is the capacitor

"-o/o-" is the centrifugal switch.

"-+WWW-" is a motor winding.

The '+' in a motor winding shows the start of the winding, which
is important when connecting them in series or in parallel.
(Part of what is hidden by the design of the motor's terminal
plate.)


i dissassembled the motor... so i could push the wires out of the way,
(when i feed in the four wires from the drum switch the wires that are
already there inside the motor were going to be MAJORLY in the way) and saw
the innards, but i was so focused on moving the wires i didn't really pay
attention to what's wired to what. duh. i didn't even take notice of teh
two non- wired pins that you've mentioned.



Note that terminal (2) and (3) show *nothing* connected to them.
This is exactly how it is. They are there so you don't have to
splice wires together and wrap it all in electrical tape.

So -- when you connect to the (W) and (O) wires, and nothing to
the (1) and (4) terminals, other end of each winding is
connected to nothing, so no current is flowing.


did you check out the link posted by Glenn? they have pretty nice
illustrations there. .pdf file though, takes a long time to download.



If you connect (W) to (4), and (O) to (1), then the two run
windings are connected in parallel, and they both get full 120V
from connections to (1) and (4).

If you connect (W) and (O) together, the two run windings are
connected in series for 240V operation. This is done in the
motor drawings which you posted by connecting both of these to
terminal (3), which is otherwise doing nothing. This still
leaves terminals (1) and (4) for the incoming power.

However -- this center point (3) also has a voltage which is
120V different from either end of the incoming power, so it can
be used to power that 120V start winding. And each of these
windings has only 120V across it, even though you have 240V
connected to the motor.

I hope that this helps.


thanks Don, i think it did. whew, i'm afraid i'm developing a large karmic
debt to you.



Enjoy,
DoN.



b.w.

According to William Wixon :

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message

-snip-


1) You are switching the neutral That should not be done in US
practice, as it leaves parts of the motor floating high.

huh. thanks. i'm surprised, well, i don't want to do anything that's not
approved.

The reason that it is not approved is that it can create unsafe
conditions, of course.

[ ... ]

Unswitched. This is also not how it should be done. The
unswitched hot is another safety problem, leaving the internals
of the motor hot while it is switched to stop -- and if a widing

yeah, that's part of the reason i figured i didn't want to wire it up to
220, because one lead would be hot all the time.

Not necessarily -- but it takes some somewhat tricky wiring. I
came up with a fairly ugly pattern when I first re-wired my Clausing
from 120V to 240V. I later re-wired it for a much cleaner design,
after battling the available switch sections in the drum switch. (It
would have been easier with one more switch section, but it would then
need more wires between switch and motor, so this is better overall.

i figured i could just
unplug it, but reading here in the past you guys have said stuff like,
"yeah, but what if you sell it?" or "what if someone else uses it?" so, i
figured i'd better be safe, but i didn't notice the hot was hot all the way
to the motor with this 110 set up too! dang.

Good to plan for safety. But I know how the eagerness to get
something working can result in an unsafe design.

[ ... ]

i try to be safe. would rather be safe than sorry.

Good.

The first thing that I need to stress here is that you need to
run a safety ground wire from the motor to the case of the switch, to

yeah, was gonna. was so focused on just trying to get the motor to run,
forward adn reverse, was leaving that part out. fully intend(ed) to run a
green ground wire throughout. there's a green screw in the internal wireing
area. thanks.

I wasn't sure whether you had actually run a ground wire and
just not drawn it, so I felt that it was a good idea to mention it just
in case.

[ ... ]

If you really want to run on 120V (I forget what horsepower
rating this motor is, but a 1-1/2 HP motor run on 120V can sometimes
trip the circuit breaker on starting surges. 240V is by far the better


i preferred wiring it to 220/240, heard motors are more efficient that way,
but the 220 wiring was totally boggling my mind. it's a 3/4 horse motor.

With a 3/4 HP motor, it will probably be a wash in most things,
though the higher currents to be made and interrupted by the drum switch
will result in slightly faster wear of the contacts. I don't know
whether it will make enough difference to result in failure in your
lifetime when used purely as a hobby lathe.

[ ... ]

Check out what I wrote in the other article. I think that
should do it for you.


thanks. hope so. i briefly scanned it, will get back to it in detail after
this.

So you did -- and your drawing showed something which I forgot
to mention in the wiring, so it is good that you posted it, instead of
just assuming that you could use it as described. (It was the position
of the (Red) wire in the motor.

[ ... ]

thanks very much for taking the time to help me with this. i had no idea
where to even start to look for information about this. (figured i was
going to have to talk to an electrician and they always seem to want money.)
:-(

I've seen electricians who would make similar mistakes. It
helps that I've done electricity and electronics as a hobby since late
grade school, and worked in it since the early 1960s until a few years
before I retired. (I spent some of the last years at work as a unix
networking administrator -- another of my hobbys. :-)



to do it *safely*. I'm going to be assuming that the power is brought
into the drum switch as you have shown in your fwd-rvse.jpg image.

I'm also going to label the switch terminals as follows:

(A) (B)


(C) (D)


(E) (F)

so I can talk about them, and you can sketch them out on paper if you so
desire.


i started to make a Paint drawing of your schematic and realized that i DO
want to (at least TRY) to wire it up to 220. so. i'll have to go read your
other post.

As you did. I would like to see the results of a Paint drawing
of this one done from my text description too -- so I can check for
other things which I forgot to mention, like what I forgot in the 240V
option.

[ ... ]

Part of the problem here is that the motor's wiring scheme is
tailored to cookbook instructions, and actually hides the information
about what is inside. I wonder whether they have wiring instructions
for each brand of drum switch in addition to what instructions you found,


the drum switch has several different wiring diagrams printed on what
appeaers to be asbestos adhered to the curved sheet metal cover. i wanted
to scan it to show you guys but can't. the harbor freight instructions are
pretty basic, no drum switch instructions.

Asbestos? That is an old switch, isn't it. :-)

More recent ones (e.g. about 1957 -- the date of manufacture of
my Clausing) seem to have the label printed on white vinyl. Of course,
the switch may be a later addition, as I've seen catalog photos of the
lathe with pushbuttons instead of a drum switch. :-)

which were assuming that you either wanted the motor to always run
clockwise or always wanted it to run counter-clockwise -- and had no
need to switch it between those (which is what three-phase motors are
for, after all. :-)

that's what the HF instructions are like. one way or the other.

As is common for this kind of motor from other manufacturers.
They all assume that if you want run-time reversible, you will be using
three-phase motors. Nice if you have three phase power available. Or,
if you use a VFD to get variable speed while you are at it.

And the wiring for a three phase motor with the same drum switch
is much simpler.

[ ... ]

The '+' in a motor winding shows the start of the winding, which
is important when connecting them in series or in parallel.
(Part of what is hidden by the design of the motor's terminal
plate.)


i dissassembled the motor... so i could push the wires out of the way,
(when i feed in the four wires from the drum switch the wires that are
already there inside the motor were going to be MAJORLY in the way) and saw
the innards, but i was so focused on moving the wires i didn't really pay
attention to what's wired to what. duh. i didn't even take notice of teh
two non- wired pins that you've mentioned.

Do you have an ohmmeter? It would not hurt to check whether
there are connections between terminals (2) and (4) and any other
terminals before applying power. Just because my tests on my (much
older) motors show that does not promise that HF did not do something
strange. :-)

Anyway -- with the wiring setup which I have suggested for 240V,
you only need three switched wires -- plus the ground -- which may make
it easier. And you can use the terminals for connections there, so you
won't have bundles of electrical tape insulating splices. :-)

Note that terminal (2) and (3) show *nothing* connected to them.
This is exactly how it is. They are there so you don't have to
splice wires together and wrap it all in electrical tape.

So -- when you connect to the (W) and (O) wires, and nothing to
the (1) and (4) terminals, other end of each winding is
connected to nothing, so no current is flowing.


did you check out the link posted by Glenn? they have pretty nice
illustrations there. .pdf file though, takes a long time to download.

I did not check it out at the time -- and the article has now
expired off my newsreader so I can't check it now. As a result, I don't
know what it may show. (It was pretty late at night when I hit it the
first time, and I already had an image in my head of how to do the
wiring and how the motor was set up.

I'll snip my text description for 120V -- as I believe that you
already have it saved off.

thanks Don, i think it did. whew, i'm afraid i'm developing a large karmic
debt to you.

I just like to share what I know to help others.

Enjoy,
DoN.

P.S. Out of curiosity -- why do you not use capital letters for
the start of sentences and for the pronoun "I" (including forms
like "I'd" "I'll", "I'm" and such)?

It makes reading a little more difficult, and it drives my
spelling checker nuts. :-)
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message

-snip-


Not necessarily -- but it takes some somewhat tricky wiring. I


wow, you ain't kiddin'


came up with a fairly ugly pattern when I first re-wired my Clausing
from 120V to 240V. I later re-wired it for a much cleaner design,
after battling the available switch sections in the drum switch. (It
would have been easier with one more switch section, but it would then
need more wires between switch and motor, so this is better overall.


whew. i've been working on this problem for hours and hours and hours.
i've been trying to figure out a solution on my own. i thought it would be
more satisfying if i could've figured it on myself. actually i do think i
came up with a workable solution but it would necessitate buying a new,
different design drum switch. (that is if Jim's CRAPPY schematic works).
i'm impressed with your wire routing.



I wasn't sure whether you had actually run a ground wire and
just not drawn it, so I felt that it was a good idea to mention it just
in case.

thanks. hadn't run the ground wire yet but kept eyeballing the green screw
on the motor housing reminding myself that i would when i got it figured
out.



With a 3/4 HP motor, it will probably be a wash in most things,
though the higher currents to be made and interrupted by the drum switch
will result in slightly faster wear of the contacts. I don't know
whether it will make enough difference to result in failure in your
lifetime when used purely as a hobby lathe.


yeah, like you said, prolly won't be an issue.



So you did -- and your drawing showed something which I forgot
to mention in the wiring, so it is good that you posted it, instead of
just assuming that you could use it as described. (It was the position
of the (Red) wire in the motor.


yeah, that purple wire going to nowhere was confusing me and making me feel
very depressed.
i swapped the red wire end for end and am hoping that will be ok,
red/black - black/red.



I've seen electricians who would make similar mistakes. It
helps that I've done electricity and electronics as a hobby since late
grade school, and worked in it since the early 1960s until a few years
before I retired. (I spent some of the last years at work as a unix
networking administrator -- another of my hobbys. :-)


thanks again for helping me. you've really put a lot of time and energy
into this problem. i'm eternally indebted to you. i've always wished my
brain could grasp and comprehend electrical stuff. every time i've tried to
solder up some sort of home made electrical device i've failed miserably, i
mean, i can do, i believe, basic electric house wiring, and i can solder,
but electronic stuff never works.



As you did. I would like to see the results of a Paint drawing
of this one done from my text description too -- so I can check for
other things which I forgot to mention, like what I forgot in the 240V
option.


thanks. i made up some more diagrams in Paint last night.


this one is based on Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic. i went back and forth
between Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic and the drawings in the link Glenn posted
(that have major missing information). (and my own sketches from
disassembling the motor) this is the one where i need a new/different
switch. i don't know if i can locate a switch like this to buy so was
plotting to try to modify the switch i have now.


http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/240final.jpg


-snip-




Do you have an ohmmeter? It would not hurt to check whether


:-) i have an electrical checker thing. not sure if it's called an
ohmmeter.



there are connections between terminals (2) and (4) and any other


i dissassembled the motor. as you suspeced earlier, there aren't (any
connections between 2 and 4). i took apart the motor to trace the lines.
the only way i could figure out how to do it (easily) was to poke one of the
probes through the varnish coating on the windings wires. i'm worried it's
not ok to rupture that coating. i sprayed polyurethane onto the place where
i broke through the coating. hope that's ok too. as a side question, that
is something i could never understand. how/why the electric current wants
go to through the wires instead of just bridging across each other to the
"shortest route". i always thought that VERY thin varnish coating wouldn't
be enough to insulate the wires from each other. how does that work?!?!



terminals before applying power. Just because my tests on my (much
older) motors show that does not promise that HF did not do something
strange. :-)

Anyway -- with the wiring setup which I have suggested for 240V,
you only need three switched wires -- plus the ground -- which may make
it easier. And you can use the terminals for connections there, so you
won't have bundles of electrical tape insulating splices. :-)

:-) besides a safe installation i also like a neat installation. my intent
is to get some stranded 14ga. wire and bundle four wires
(black/white/red/green) inside a 3/8" BX jacket to run between the motor
and the switch (with crimp eye connectors on the ends) and run a 14/3
extension cord from the switch to the 240 wall socket.




I did not check it out at the time -- and the article has now
expired off my newsreader so I can't check it now. As a result, I don't
know what it may show. (It was pretty late at night when I hit it the
first time, and I already had an image in my head of how to do the
wiring and how the motor was set up.

I'll snip my text description for 120V -- as I believe that you
already have it saved off.


I just like to share what I know to help others.

Enjoy,
DoN.

P.S. Out of curiosity -- why do you not use capital letters for
the start of sentences and for the pronoun "I" (including forms
like "I'd" "I'll", "I'm" and such)?


sorry about that. it must be a habit picked up from using various chat
programs. typing as fast as possible. the long explanation for not using
capital "I" is i was trying to train myself to have some humility.



It makes reading a little more difficult, and it drives my
spelling checker nuts. :-)


sorry.


thanks Don dude!

b.w.

oh, i uploaded a cleaned-up version of your wire routing drawing.

www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/240dons.jpg

i swapped the wires to "C" and "D" as you suggested. and swapped black for
red.

According to William Wixon :

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message

-snip-


Not necessarily -- but it takes some somewhat tricky wiring. I


wow, you ain't kiddin'

[ ... ]

whew. i've been working on this problem for hours and hours and hours.
i've been trying to figure out a solution on my own. i thought it would be
more satisfying if i could've figured it on myself. actually i do think i
came up with a workable solution but it would necessitate buying a new,
different design drum switch. (that is if Jim's CRAPPY schematic works).
i'm impressed with your wire routing.

Based on the 240final.jpg (which you mentioned later in the
e-mail) I think that it would work -- but you won't find a drum switch
with that switching pattern.

What you would need is a high-current multi-pole switch.
Looking at your drawing, I would say that a three pole three position
switch would do. Note that you are using nothing of switch terminal
(C).

So -- let's see:

================================================== ====================
Plug | Switch | Motor
================================================== ====================
Blu
o--------+--------(1)--+WWWWWWWW------------+
(L1)-----+----o------o | |
| o-----+--|--------(4)---WWWWWWWW+----------(3)
| | | Orn |
| | | |
+----o | | Red |
o------o-----|--|--------(2)--+WWWWWWWWW--)|--o/o- +
+----o | |
| | |
| | |
| o-----+ |
(L2)-----+----o------o |
o--------+

(N)-----------(G)------------------------(G)

All three switch elements move at the same time. Center is
STOP, All up is FORWARD, and all down is REVERSE.

"+" s either where two wires join, or bend at right angles

"-|-" is where two wires pass nearby without making contact.

================================================== ====================

I've actually used such a switch (with many more than three
positions, but locked to not rotate beyond those three) with the motor
on my old Atlas/Craftsman 6x18" lathe. At the time, I did not know
where to find real drum switches, but I could easily pick up switches
like these at hamfests. It has a bar handle, so it is not that
different from a drum switch in exterior operation, once I put it in a
metal box to keep chips from falling into all of those screw terminals.

[ ... ]

So you did -- and your drawing showed something which I forgot
to mention in the wiring, so it is good that you posted it, instead of
just assuming that you could use it as described. (It was the position
of the (Red) wire in the motor.


yeah, that purple wire going to nowhere was confusing me and making me feel
very depressed.
i swapped the red wire end for end and am hoping that will be ok,
red/black - black/red.

Essentially, swapping the red and the black wires from the motor
will change what is forward and what is reverse. One of several ways to
do it.

FWIW Normally, the drum switches are set up so FORWARD is moving
the handle to the left, and reverse is moving it to the right. It is
good to be consistent with that -- so when you use somebody eles's
machine, you get the expected behavior. And my switch on the
Altas/Craftsman was backwards, so I had to re-train myself. :-)



I've seen electricians who would make similar mistakes. It
helps that I've done electricity and electronics as a hobby since late
grade school, and worked in it since the early 1960s until a few years
before I retired. (I spent some of the last years at work as a unix
networking administrator -- another of my hobbys. :-)


thanks again for helping me. you've really put a lot of time and energy
into this problem. i'm eternally indebted to you. i've always wished my
brain could grasp and comprehend electrical stuff. every time i've tried to
solder up some sort of home made electrical device i've failed miserably, i
mean, i can do, i believe, basic electric house wiring, and i can solder,
but electronic stuff never works.

Well ... as I said -- I was playing with this kind of thing back
when I was in grade school -- so it was plenty of time for things to
sink in. :-)

And I also did a lot of playing with telephone switch gear, so
I learned relay logic, which is not that different from what we are
doing here.

As you did. I would like to see the results of a Paint drawing
of this one done from my text description too -- so I can check for
other things which I forgot to mention, like what I forgot in the 240V
option.


thanks. i made up some more diagrams in Paint last night.

And I've downloaded them.

this one is based on Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic. i went back and forth
between Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic

Are you talking about the one from a South Bend manual by any
chance?

and the drawings in the link Glenn posted
(that have major missing information). (and my own sketches from
disassembling the motor) this is the one where i need a new/different
switch. i don't know if i can locate a switch like this to buy so was
plotting to try to modify the switch i have now.


http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/240final.jpg

Comments above.

Do you have an ohmmeter? It would not hurt to check whether


:-) i have an electrical checker thing. not sure if it's called an
ohmmeter.

Can it measure resistance, or just continuity?

there are connections between terminals (2) and (4) and any other


i dissassembled the motor. as you suspeced earlier, there aren't (any
connections between 2 and 4).

Good -- glad to have that confirmed.

i took apart the motor to trace the lines.
the only way i could figure out how to do it (easily) was to poke one of the
probes through the varnish coating on the windings wires. i'm worried it's
not ok to rupture that coating. i sprayed polyurethane onto the place where
i broke through the coating. hope that's ok too. as a side question, that
is something i could never understand. how/why the electric current wants
go to through the wires instead of just bridging across each other to the
"shortest route". i always thought that VERY thin varnish coating wouldn't
be enough to insulate the wires from each other. how does that work?!?!

Hmm ... that enamel on the wire is tough stuff, and is pretty
good insulation. And remember that no single winding on this motor has
more than 120V across it. And there is an additional layer of
insulation wrapped around each winding to separate them where they
cross. And that is quite sufficient.

I don't know how good the polyurethane is, but it is at least
better than not replacing the insulation at all.

I really would not have bothered cutting through the varnish.
Just measuring at the available wires should have been sufficient. Four
loose wires, and one to terminal (1) and one to terminal (4).

[ ... ]

Anyway -- with the wiring setup which I have suggested for 240V,
you only need three switched wires -- plus the ground -- which may make
it easier. And you can use the terminals for connections there, so you
won't have bundles of electrical tape insulating splices. :-)

:-) besides a safe installation i also like a neat installation. my intent
is to get some stranded 14ga. wire and bundle four wires
(black/white/red/green) inside a 3/8" BX jacket to run between the motor
and the switch (with crimp eye connectors on the ends) and run a 14/3
extension cord from the switch to the 240 wall socket.

O.K. One suggestion. Don't use white -- look for some other
color, because white should be neutral in house wiring (even though
black is ground in electronics wiring).

[ ... ]

P.S. Out of curiosity -- why do you not use capital letters for
the start of sentences and for the pronoun "I" (including forms
like "I'd" "I'll", "I'm" and such)?


sorry about that. it must be a habit picked up from using various chat
programs. typing as fast as possible. the long explanation for not using
capital "I" is i was trying to train myself to have some humility.

I was afraid that latter was the reason for the lower-case 'i'.
I opt to go with the standard English language writing process, as it is
easier for others to read. (And the capital on the first word of each
sentence helps to distinguish between a period '.' and a comma ',' --
which are a bit difficult to tell apart on my screen at my usual
distance.

[ ... ]

thanks Don dude!

You're welcome.

b.w.

oh, i uploaded a cleaned-up version of your wire routing drawing.

www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/240dons.jpg

i swapped the wires to "C" and "D" as you suggested. and swapped black for
red.

You mean 'C' and 'B'? That was for the case of the motor
running the wrong direction when you switch it to forward. Just showing
you one of the easy ways to set things up so the motor runs the right
direction when switched to FORWARD.

The wires on (E) and (F) can be interchanged as well, but I
selected that pattern to make the (L2) hot line jumper between (F) and
(D) short, and not have to jump around the switch. There are also ways
to set it up with (A), (B), (C), and (D) to move that hot line to (C)
and (E), and the other hot to (B). But I started out with one hot to
(A), and that sort of pre-selected (D) as the other hot.

Oh yes -- another thing. The 240dons.jpg image brings another
thing to mind. I don't know how the motor and the switch are mounted to
your lathe, but at least one of them needs to be firmly grounded to the
lathe's frame -- or you need to continue the ground wire off to the
frame as well. Some motors are mounted via a rubber bushing between the
frame/base and the motor itself, so that would leave the motor floating
relative to the lathe frame. In my case, the drum switch is screwed
directly to the headstock casting, so it is well enough grounded.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote


Based on the 240final.jpg (which you mentioned later in the
e-mail) I think that it would work -- but you won't find a drum switch
with that switching pattern.


Huh, I was afraid i wouldn't. The link posted by Glenn...
http://www.owwm.com/files/PDF/FAQ/ElectricMotors.pdf has illustrations
with that kind of switching pattern but I guess that must just be an
electrical schematic huh? :-( (****ed me off in that article the author
says something like "...you're on your own..." (with the "alternate
switching pattern", which of course MY drum switch has!)) (and i suspect
every other drum switch manufactured in the united states also has.)



What you would need is a high-current multi-pole switch.
Looking at your drawing, I would say that a three pole three position
switch would do. Note that you are using nothing of switch terminal


Yeah, when I was trying to create a mental picture of what I needed I
thought "triple pole dual throw" switch, and tried to find it on on-line
(mcmaster.com, etc) and couldn't.



(C).

So -- let's see:

================================================== ====================
Plug | Switch | Motor
================================================== ====================
Blu
o--------+--------(1)--+WWWWWWWW------------+
(L1)-----+----o------o | |
| o-----+--|--------(4)---WWWWWWWW+----------(3)
| | | Orn |
| | | |
+----o | | Red |
o------o-----|--|--------(2)--+WWWWWWWWW--)|--o/o- +
+----o | |
| | |
| | |
| o-----+ |
(L2)-----+----o------o |
o--------+

(N)-----------(G)------------------------(G)

All three switch elements move at the same time. Center is
STOP, All up is FORWARD, and all down is REVERSE.

"+" s either where two wires join, or bend at right angles

"-|-" is where two wires pass nearby without making contact.

================================================== ====================



I think your ascii got scrambled up.



I've actually used such a switch (with many more than three
positions, but locked to not rotate beyond those three) with the motor
on my old Atlas/Craftsman 6x18" lathe. At the time, I did not know
where to find real drum switches, but I could easily pick up switches
like these at hamfests. It has a bar handle, so it is not that
different from a drum switch in exterior operation, once I put it in a
metal box to keep chips from falling into all of those screw terminals



I'd think that would've been easier than all this hassle.





Essentially, swapping the red and the black wires from the motor
will change what is forward and what is reverse. One of several ways to
do it.

FWIW Normally, the drum switches are set up so FORWARD is moving
the handle to the left, and reverse is moving it to the right. It is


Huh. For me I'd think "intuitive" would be forward/right, reverse/left.
(or maybe that's the way the lathe that i had used in the past was wired and
got used to that.)



good to be consistent with that -- so when you use somebody eles's
machine, you get the expected behavior. And my switch on the
Altas/Craftsman was backwards, so I had to re-train myself. :-)


-snip-


this one is based on Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic. i went back and forth
between Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic

Are you talking about the one from a South Bend manual by any
chance?


I don't konw. Jim posted this link...
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...files/wire.jpg When i
say "crappy" I'm not talking about it's electrical validity, just that it's
SMALL and even if i enlarge it the details are blurry. I guess it isn't
important that I be able to read "BU" or "BK" (or "WIRE NUT" or "SMUDGE")
but coming from where i am, knowing nothing about electric wiring, I felt it
would've been helpful to eliminate any ambiguity. (and i dont' think the
drum switch in the drawing is the same as mine so that made it entirely more
complicated, felt i was on a fool's errand trying to desipher that drawing.)




Can it measure resistance, or just continuity?


I do believe it can measure resistance, I don't know the terms, ohms,
resistance, etc. I put it on the capacitor and it did what i read somewhere
it would, pegged at one end of the scale and rapidly drop to near zero.
It's an el-cheapo "Sperry", i stole it from Home Depot (i'm just kidding)
(teasing Harold).




Hmm ... that enamel on the wire is tough stuff, and is pretty
good insulation. And remember that no single winding on this motor has
more than 120V across it. And there is an additional layer of
insulation wrapped around each winding to separate them where they
cross. And that is quite sufficient.

I don't know how good the polyurethane is, but it is at least
better than not replacing the insulation at all.

I really would not have bothered cutting through the varnish.
Just measuring at the available wires should have been sufficient. Four
loose wires, and one to terminal (1) and one to terminal (4).


Huh. I was trying to find which one was the starting winding (i read the
starting winding used thinner wire, trying to find which color wires went to
the thin wires) but now I'm guessing the starting winding is obvious
because it's the one with the capacitor and switch on it.)




O.K. One suggestion. Don't use white -- look for some other
color, because white should be neutral in house wiring (even though
black is ground in electronics wiring).



OK, thanks.




I was afraid that latter was the reason for the lower-case 'i'.
I opt to go with the standard English language writing process, as it is
easier for others to read. (And the capital on the first word of each
sentence helps to distinguish between a period '.' and a comma ',' --
which are a bit difficult to tell apart on my screen at my usual
distance.


oops.





thanks Don dude!

You're welcome.


You mean 'C' and 'B'? That was for the case of the motor
running the wrong direction when you switch it to forward. Just showing
you one of the easy ways to set things up so the motor runs the right
direction when switched to FORWARD.


Thanks. (Yeah, that's what i meant, 'C' and 'B'.)



The wires on (E) and (F) can be interchanged as well, but I
selected that pattern to make the (L2) hot line jumper between (F) and
(D) short, and not have to jump around the switch. There are also ways
to set it up with (A), (B), (C), and (D) to move that hot line to (C)
and (E), and the other hot to (B). But I started out with one hot to
(A), and that sort of pre-selected (D) as the other hot.

Oh yes -- another thing. The 240dons.jpg image brings another
thing to mind. I don't know how the motor and the switch are mounted to
your lathe, but at least one of them needs to be firmly grounded to the
lathe's frame -- or you need to continue the ground wire off to the
frame as well. Some motors are mounted via a rubber bushing between the


Thanks. Yeah, this motor is w/o rubber bushing, my intent is to rigidly
attach the switch to the headstock casting too.


frame/base and the motor itself, so that would leave the motor floating
relative to the lathe frame. In my case, the drum switch is screwed
directly to the headstock casting, so it is well enough grounded.

Enjoy,
DoN.



Thanks again.

b.w.

According to William Wixon :

"DoN. Nichols" wrote


Based on the 240final.jpg (which you mentioned later in the
e-mail) I think that it would work -- but you won't find a drum switch
with that switching pattern.


Huh, I was afraid i wouldn't. The link posted by Glenn...
http://www.owwm.com/files/PDF/FAQ/ElectricMotors.pdf has illustrations
with that kind of switching pattern but I guess that must just be an
electrical schematic huh? :-(

Hmm ... no -- I think that it is wiring of a double contactor to
emulate that switching pattern.

(****ed me off in that article the author
says something like "...you're on your own..." (with the "alternate
switching pattern", which of course MY drum switch has!)) (and i suspect
every other drum switch manufactured in the united states also has.)

Well ... the one on my Clausing is pretty much as yours is, but
another which I have (of the sort which is used for the three-phase
motor on a Bridgeport) is closer the kind shown in figures 5 through 8,
and you can even see the cross-over wires if you look carefully. They
are black insulated, and the switch body is a black plastic, so you
don't see them at first glance.

That kind makes more sense to me -- because I don't have to
analyze the wafers of the switch in the other to tell what it is doing.

What you would need is a high-current multi-pole switch.
Looking at your drawing, I would say that a three pole three position
switch would do. Note that you are using nothing of switch terminal


Yeah, when I was trying to create a mental picture of what I needed I
thought "triple pole dual throw" switch, and tried to find it on on-line
(mcmaster.com, etc) and couldn't.

They exist as toggle switches -- and even 4PDT -- but they
aren't high enough current to reliably handle switching the motor live,
only switching direction while it is stopped. And you would really want
a 4PDTCO (Center Off) -- or you could not stop the motor.

I used a rotary switch designed for high currents -- gazillions
of screw terminals.

(C).

So -- let's see:

================================================== ====================
Plug | Switch | Motor
================================================== ====================
Blu
o--------+--------(1)--+WWWWWWWW------------+
(L1)-----+----o------o | |
| o-----+--|--------(4)---WWWWWWWW+----------(3)
| | | Orn |
| | | |
+----o | | Red |
o------o-----|--|--------(2)--+WWWWWWWWW--)|--o/o- +
+----o | |
| | |
| | |
| o-----+ |
(L2)-----+----o------o |
o--------+

(N)-----------(G)------------------------(G)

All three switch elements move at the same time. Center is
STOP, All up is FORWARD, and all down is REVERSE.

"+" s either where two wires join, or bend at right angles

"-|-" is where two wires pass nearby without making contact.

================================================== ====================



I think your ascii got scrambled up.

I think that you were likely looking at it with a proportional
pitch font -- which will scramble *any* drawing done in ASCII with a
fixed-pitch font. And since different proportional pitch fonts are
different widths for different characters, they don't all look the same,
while a fixed pitch font, like Courier, will look the same on all
machines. I see that there are some offsets put in by your quoting, so
I'll fix them above, and you can try switching to Courier (or perhaps
*printing* it with a fixed pitch font)

There -- it is back as it should be for the moment.

I've actually used such a switch (with many more than three
positions, but locked to not rotate beyond those three) with the motor
on my old Atlas/Craftsman 6x18" lathe. At the time, I did not know
where to find real drum switches, but I could easily pick up switches
like these at hamfests. It has a bar handle, so it is not that
different from a drum switch in exterior operation, once I put it in a
metal box to keep chips from falling into all of those screw terminals

I'd think that would've been easier than all this hassle.

Except that it doesn't have the right kind of handle to really
*feel* right.

Essentially, swapping the red and the black wires from the motor
will change what is forward and what is reverse. One of several ways to
do it.

FWIW Normally, the drum switches are set up so FORWARD is moving
the handle to the left, and reverse is moving it to the right. It is


Huh. For me I'd think "intuitive" would be forward/right, reverse/left.
(or maybe that's the way the lathe that i had used in the past was wired and
got used to that.)

What are the labels on your drum switch? I'll bet left is
forward, right is reverse.

good to be consistent with that -- so when you use somebody eles's
machine, you get the expected behavior. And my switch on the
Altas/Craftsman was backwards, so I had to re-train myself. :-)


-snip-


this one is based on Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic. i went back and forth
between Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic

Are you talking about the one from a South Bend manual by any
chance?


I don't konw. Jim posted this link...
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...files/wire.jpg When i
say "crappy" I'm not talking about it's electrical validity, just that it's
SMALL and even if i enlarge it the details are blurry. I guess it isn't
important that I be able to read "BU" or "BK" (or "WIRE NUT" or "SMUDGE")
but coming from where i am, knowing nothing about electric wiring, I felt it
would've been helpful to eliminate any ambiguity. (and i dont' think the
drum switch in the drawing is the same as mine so that made it entirely more
complicated, felt i was on a fool's errand trying to desipher that drawing.)

The big problem is that it is showing three mechanically joined,
but electrically independant single pole double throw center off
switches. You can't do that with your drum switch, though I could with
the extra which I have -- after cutting loose the crossover wires and
replacing them in the right pattern.

The circuit which I provided would work with any drum switch
designed for three-phase motor reversing.




Can it measure resistance, or just continuity?


I do believe it can measure resistance, I don't know the terms, ohms,
resistance, etc.

Ohms are the units used to measure resistance.

I put it on the capacitor and it did what i read somewhere
it would, pegged at one end of the scale and rapidly drop to near zero.
It's an el-cheapo "Sperry", i stole it from Home Depot (i'm just kidding)
(teasing Harold).

Sperry should be a pretty good brand, actually.

[ ... ]

I really would not have bothered cutting through the varnish.
Just measuring at the available wires should have been sufficient. Four
loose wires, and one to terminal (1) and one to terminal (4).


Huh. I was trying to find which one was the starting winding (i read the
starting winding used thinner wire, trying to find which color wires went to
the thin wires) but now I'm guessing the starting winding is obvious
because it's the one with the capacitor and switch on it.)

Yes -- that is it.

[ ... ]

Oh yes -- another thing. The 240dons.jpg image brings another
thing to mind. I don't know how the motor and the switch are mounted to
your lathe, but at least one of them needs to be firmly grounded to the
lathe's frame -- or you need to continue the ground wire off to the
frame as well. Some motors are mounted via a rubber bushing between the


Thanks. Yeah, this motor is w/o rubber bushing, my intent is to rigidly
attach the switch to the headstock casting too.

O.K. That should do it.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---