I'm trying to find a source for some lead-arsenic alloy.

I want to use a lead-arsenic or tin-arsenic to increase the arsenic
content of the lead I want to cast into bullets.

Yes, I am already aware of the health and environmental issues
involved with arsenic.

I know some shot shell lead shot contains arsenic, but it is at the
arsenic level I am trying to achieve. So it would do no good to add
that to what I have.

There are manufacturers producing up to 30% arsenic lead alloys,
but they are all in Russia and China from what I can tell.

And I don't need several metric tons.

Does anyone have any idea where a person might get a single ingot
or a few pounds?

Thanks,

Dave

David A. Webb writes:

I'm trying to find a source for some lead-arsenic alloy.

Perhaps you mean lead and antimony?

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 02:00:49 -0600, Richard J Kinch
wrote:


Perhaps you mean lead and antimony?


Nope.

Antimony is the main contributor of harden ability, but arsenic helps
it retain the hardness once it has been heat treated.
(at least according to what I have been reading from the cast lead
bullet experts)

As I said, many people will add lead shot (of the type used for
shotgun shells) to their pot, because certain types of this has up to
1% arsenic. A guy I work with tried it, and happened to use shot that
had zero arsenic, and all of his bullets ended up too soft.

Dave

On 3-Mar-2004, Richard J Kinch wrote:

Perhaps you mean lead and antimony?

If he did he would not say.


Yes, I am already aware of the health and environmental issues
involved with arsenic.


I wanted some arsenic to alloy with copper, but it cost more than I wanted
to pay. All I found was high purity, small amounts for lab work.

Les

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 11:47:34 GMT, wrote:


On 3-Mar-2004, Richard J Kinch wrote:

Perhaps you mean lead and antimony?

If he did he would not say.

Not sure if my post didn't make it, but no, I did mean arsenic and
lead.


Yes, I am already aware of the health and environmental issues
involved with arsenic.


I wanted some arsenic to alloy with copper, but it cost more than I wanted
to pay. All I found was high purity, small amounts for lab work.


How do you get the pure arsenic to melt into the metal without all of
it vaporizing or oxidizing? I know, I know... use a flux.

I have a source for arsenic metal lumps, although it isn't cheap.
About $88 per pound. But I didn't think I'd be able to get it to mix
in with the lead.

Dave

"David A. Webb" wrote in message
...


I have a source for arsenic metal lumps, although it isn't cheap.
About $88 per pound. But I didn't think I'd be able to get it to mix
in with the lead.

Dave


I suppose you know already that arsenic has all but dropped out of sight as
an alloying ingredient for hardening lead. That's why most bullet casters
have taken to using tin (in the form of lead-tin solder; is lead-tin still
available in bars for wiping or for automobile bodywork? I don't know.).
Another thing that I've read about, although I've never tried it, is finding
a source of car wheel weights that run hard (some are quite hard), and then
running some tests with a bullet hardness tester to get a standard ratio to
use with pure lead.

When I used to cast bullets for muzzleloading I used any junk I could get my
hands on, so I'm not much of an authority on the subject. g

Good luck.

Ed Huntress

Wheelweight alloy used to be mostly lead (93%+) with the rest antimony (5-6%)
and traces other junk thrown in.

When I was doing a lot of bullet casting using wheelweights (20+ years ago), it
was very easy to "heat treat" a cast bullet by dropping the bullets directly
into water and quenching them. This "hardened" the bullet to a significant
extent, and reduced leading in most loadings. The antimony matrix in suspension
in the lead was responsible for the hardness increase.

The hardness was temporary, and was reduced then finally disappeared after
several months at room temperature due to lead alloy re-crystallization.

I'm seriously out of date on wheelweight alloys now. I did cart around a lot of
wheelweight ingots for many years, tho. When I moved from Ohio to Tennessee in
1998, and paid for the move myself, I gave away about 800 lbs. of wheel weight
ingots to the local gun club in Ohio. Easy decision, the average freight rate
was $0.60/lb for the move.

Mike Eberlein

Ed Huntress wrote:

"David A. Webb" wrote in message
...


I have a source for arsenic metal lumps, although it isn't cheap.
About $88 per pound. But I didn't think I'd be able to get it to mix
in with the lead.

Dave

I suppose you know already that arsenic has all but dropped out of sight as
an alloying ingredient for hardening lead. That's why most bullet casters
have taken to using tin (in the form of lead-tin solder; is lead-tin still
available in bars for wiping or for automobile bodywork? I don't know.).
Another thing that I've read about, although I've never tried it, is finding
a source of car wheel weights that run hard (some are quite hard), and then
running some tests with a bullet hardness tester to get a standard ratio to
use with pure lead.

When I used to cast bullets for muzzleloading I used any junk I could get my
hands on, so I'm not much of an authority on the subject. g

Good luck.

Ed Huntress

On 4-Mar-2004, David A. Webb wrote:

I have a source for arsenic metal lumps, although it isn't cheap.
About $88 per pound. But I didn't think I'd be able to get it to mix
in with the lead.

Dave

That sounds like a good price to me, I am only putting in 1 percent.
Want to split a pound maybe??

Les

On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:17:12 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

I suppose you know already that arsenic has all but dropped out of sight as
an alloying ingredient for hardening lead.

I have been doing a LOT of reading and learning from various shooting
forums on the different alloys.

For soft alloys, use pure lead.

For HARD alloys, use a high antimony alloy.

To make it more easily castable, add tin.

And there are a lot of opinions as to how much of each to add.

I've read in several places that some wheel weights contain roughly
0.17% arsenic, while others contain less than 0.01%.

However, I saw several similarities in how these sources were written,
and I therefore suspect they are plagiarized, old, and unverified.

I have also read that "magnum shot" for shotshell reloading contains
somewhere between 0.5 - 1.0 % arsenic. Many people add shot to the
pot to increase their arsenic content to the desired level.

The reason for the arsenic is exactly what mikee mentioned. Heat
treating lead causes a somewhat temporary hardening. Arsenic helps
keep it permanent. (from what I have read)

Adding antimony does increase hardness, but it also causes the bullets
to become brittle.

The ideal solution would be to keep the antimony as low as possible
and heat treating to obtain the desired hardness, but the drawback is
that the hardness fades without the arsenic. So you see my dilemma.

I currently have four samples digested at the lab and ready to
analyze. I had hoped to have the analysis done today, but got
completely overwhelmed with real work.

One is common wheelweight lead, One is commercial lead shot
(non-"magnum"), and two are commercially produced lead bullets,
one of which is known to be enriched with arsenic.

I know some people are experimenting with other metals. Adding copper
to the lead, bismuth, etc. I don't think they are having any luck.

Casting for modern handguns is a lot different than for muzzle
loading. A buddy of mine wants the softest balls he can cast for his
black powder rifle because they are easier to push down, and he
doesn't care about leading in the barrel because he uses a patch.

For a modern handgun, "experts" say you want softer bullets for mild
rounds, and harder bullets for hotter rounds. (I think some "experts"
even say the opposite)

I've yet to cast my first bullet, as it will be another couple of
weeks before my molds are made. But in the meantime I've got my work
cut out for me to get an alloy ready for casting. I've found a few
hundred pounds of wheel weights, 20 pounds of tin, and 40 pounds of
antimony. I'm still trying to find a source of arsenic for the pot.
Once I get all of the ingredients, I'll start alloying and analyzing.

Dave

"David A. Webb" wrote in message
...

I've yet to cast my first bullet, as it will be another couple of
weeks before my molds are made. But in the meantime I've got my work
cut out for me to get an alloy ready for casting.

Well, it sounds like you've made a good study of it, and that you know what
you're after. Let us know how it works out.

BTW, those muzzleloader bullets I was making included lead balls for my pea
rifle and for my .45-cal "compromise twist" commercially made rifle, but
also patched conical bullets for use in an antique, 30-lb. bench rifle. The
harder ones were the conicals.

If anyone is interested, I'll describe a process for making aluminum bullet
molds that will make a machinist cry, but which turned out some of the best
bullets I ever made. All you need is a big-mutha hammer and a file.

Ed Huntress

On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 02:24:58 GMT, wrote:

On 4-Mar-2004, David A. Webb wrote:

I have a source for arsenic metal lumps, although it isn't cheap.
About $88 per pound. But I didn't think I'd be able to get it to mix
in with the lead.

Dave

That sounds like a good price to me, I am only putting in 1 percent.
Want to split a pound maybe??

Whoa... 1% ???

Again, I've not even started this adventure yet, but everything I've
read says not to exceed 0.25%. Doing so will negate the effects of
the tin, and will cause the lead to not fill out in the mold
properly.

Are you having good luck with arsenic that high?

.... how do you know you are getting 1% in your final alloy?

As far as splitting an order, I'm not sure if I really want any pure
arsenic laying around. The local government would freak out and
charge us with terrorism if we had that stuff in our garages.

I doubt they would feel so strongly about a lead-arsenic alloy.

Dave

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 02:47:49 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

If anyone is interested, I'll describe a process for making aluminum bullet
molds that will make a machinist cry, but which turned out some of the best
bullets I ever made. All you need is a big-mutha hammer and a file.

Ed Huntress

I am, I am !!! (interested in having you describe the process)

Do you need very soft aluminum so it doesn't break when you beat on it
with the hammer?

Dave

"David A. Webb" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 02:47:49 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

If anyone is interested, I'll describe a process for making aluminum
bullet
molds that will make a machinist cry, but which turned out some of the
best
bullets I ever made. All you need is a big-mutha hammer and a file.

Ed Huntress

I am, I am !!! (interested in having you describe the process)

Do you need very soft aluminum so it doesn't break when you beat on it
with the hammer?

I suppose it would be better, but all I had was some cutoffs of 6061, which
I kept annealing in the oven to keep them workable.

Anyway, I took two, 2" x 2" x 1" blocks of aluminum and a ball bearing of
the correct size. I dimpled the two blocks of aluminum to hold the bearing
in place to get started. Then I put a piece of 1/2" steel plate on top of
one block and set the whole mess on another piece of steel plate, and began
whacking it with the hammer (a short-handled maul, actually).

This takes a fair number of whacks, and I kept rotating the top block around
as I went. When the two blocks started to touch I took them apart and filed
them flat, several times, until the parting plane came out fairly flat. I
clamped the two pieces together and drilled holes for guide pins, another
for a sprue, and I was done.

It cast very nice balls. I also tried turning a conical bullet pattern from
steel and hardened it, but it all needed some more experimentation. The
aluminum wasn't filling properly around the pattern. I'm sure it would work
if you fooled around with it.

Ed Huntress

On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 17:25:38 -0600, mikee wrote:

Wheelweight alloy used to be mostly lead (93%+) with the rest antimony (5-6%)
and traces other junk thrown in.

When I was doing a lot of bullet casting using wheelweights (20+ years ago), it
was very easy to "heat treat" a cast bullet by dropping the bullets directly
into water and quenching them. This "hardened" the bullet to a significant
extent, and reduced leading in most loadings. The antimony matrix in suspension
in the lead was responsible for the hardness increase.

The hardness was temporary, and was reduced then finally disappeared after
several months at room temperature due to lead alloy re-crystallization.

I'm seriously out of date on wheelweight alloys now. I did cart around a lot of
wheelweight ingots for many years, tho. When I moved from Ohio to Tennessee in
1998, and paid for the move myself, I gave away about 800 lbs. of wheel weight
ingots to the local gun club in Ohio. Easy decision, the average freight rate
was $0.60/lb for the move.

Mike Eberlein

Its still easily done (heat treating) and while it does drop some in
the brinell scale over time..its a very long time. Casting directly
into a 5 gallon bucket will get wheel weights up to the 22-30 Brinell
scale, and over the next several years..they will drop down to around
18 or so. There are several phase changes in the first day or two both
up and down, then full hardness is reached in about 4 days.

This of course precludes sizing them after heat treating, and to be
shot unsized. To get them hard if sized..you must size first, then
put them in the oven, then lubed.

Gunner


Ed Huntress wrote:

"David A. Webb" wrote in message
...


I have a source for arsenic metal lumps, although it isn't cheap.
About $88 per pound. But I didn't think I'd be able to get it to mix
in with the lead.

Dave

I suppose you know already that arsenic has all but dropped out of sight as
an alloying ingredient for hardening lead. That's why most bullet casters
have taken to using tin (in the form of lead-tin solder; is lead-tin still
available in bars for wiping or for automobile bodywork? I don't know.).
Another thing that I've read about, although I've never tried it, is finding
a source of car wheel weights that run hard (some are quite hard), and then
running some tests with a bullet hardness tester to get a standard ratio to
use with pure lead.

When I used to cast bullets for muzzleloading I used any junk I could get my
hands on, so I'm not much of an authority on the subject. g

Good luck.

Ed Huntress

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 02:34:03 GMT, David A. Webb
wrote:


I've yet to cast my first bullet, as it will be another couple of
weeks before my molds are made. But in the meantime I've got my work
cut out for me to get an alloy ready for casting. I've found a few
hundred pounds of wheel weights, 20 pounds of tin, and 40 pounds of
antimony. I'm still trying to find a source of arsenic for the pot.
Once I get all of the ingredients, I'll start alloying and analyzing.

Dave

Dave, I cast about 200lbs of wheel weights a year, down from 1000 lbs
15 yrs ago. I believe that the arsenic in the wheel weights is of
sufficent quantity to carry over into your batchs. Always remember to
rough cast as large a batch as possible for consistancy. I made a
large bottom pour batch/rough melter out of a 18" bull plug, and a
homemade gas ring burner under it, and it would rough cast at least
100 lbs or more of wheel weights at a time, allowing you to remove the
clips, dross, etc etc and allow good fluxing and getting a good
homogenious mix of a large quantity. I didnt use it often, but at
least once a year, we would melt down at least 1000 lbs of wheel
weights in a single day, and pour batches all pretty close to each
other into ingots made from angle iron moulds.

Casting parties are a big help, if you can con a couple buddies into
giving you a hand for a half a day. You can turn out a ****load of
bullets by using multiple moulds and even more if using large gang
molds.

I think I have around 53 or so moulds, and am always looking for more
of the old ones. A lot of the better old Lyman styles simply are no
longer available from Lyman, or anyone else.

I have need for a .410 200-220 gr SWC mould if you run across one (.41
Mag) and have several brand new or near new 7mm moulds, surplus.

Also need a .406-409 300-400 gr mould (40-65 Win). Doesnt need to be
gas check base.

Gunner


"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 02:47:49 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"David A. Webb" wrote in message
.. .

I've yet to cast my first bullet, as it will be another couple of
weeks before my molds are made. But in the meantime I've got my work
cut out for me to get an alloy ready for casting.

Well, it sounds like you've made a good study of it, and that you know what
you're after. Let us know how it works out.

BTW, those muzzleloader bullets I was making included lead balls for my pea
rifle and for my .45-cal "compromise twist" commercially made rifle, but
also patched conical bullets for use in an antique, 30-lb. bench rifle. The
harder ones were the conicals.

If anyone is interested, I'll describe a process for making aluminum bullet
molds that will make a machinist cry, but which turned out some of the best
bullets I ever made. All you need is a big-mutha hammer and a file.

Ed Huntress

YES!! Please do!

I suspect Im gonna cringe when I hear the discription however... G

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

Hi Dave
I think you assume I am making bulets, I am not. I want to make Kuromido for
jewerly.

Les

On 4-Mar-2004, David A. Webb wrote:

On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 02:24:58 GMT, wrote:

On 4-Mar-2004, David A. Webb wrote:

I have a source for arsenic metal lumps, although it isn't cheap.
About $88 per pound. But I didn't think I'd be able to get it to mix
in with the lead.

Dave

That sounds like a good price to me, I am only putting in 1 percent.
Want to split a pound maybe??

Whoa... 1% ???

Again, I've not even started this adventure yet, but everything I've
read says not to exceed 0.25%. Doing so will negate the effects of
the tin, and will cause the lead to not fill out in the mold
properly.

Are you having good luck with arsenic that high?

... how do you know you are getting 1% in your final alloy?

As far as splitting an order, I'm not sure if I really want any pure
arsenic laying around. The local government would freak out and
charge us with terrorism if we had that stuff in our garages.

I doubt they would feel so strongly about a lead-arsenic alloy.

Dave

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
If anyone is interested, I'll describe a process for making aluminum
bullet
molds that will make a machinist cry, but which turned out some of the
best
bullets I ever made. All you need is a big-mutha hammer and a file.

Ed Huntress

YES!! Please do!

I suspect Im gonna cringe when I hear the discription however... G

I guess you saw the description I posted by now. As my aging memory clanks
into gear, I remember two other points: After I made this thing I bandsawed
about a half-inch from one side of the joined mold, so that the sprue
opening to the outside was about 1/8" from the cavity. And the mold joined
so tightly that it wouldn't vent at all. So I cut four shallow vents (a
criss-cross, actually) in one side of the mold with a triangular file. I
also recall that the ball bearing was sticking in one half of the mold as I
got close to finishing it so I had to focus my filing on that side of the
mold. I'd file, then put it back together and whack it a few times, etc.
Start to finish, it took maybe ten minutes of work with about three
interruptions for annealing. I was being cautious. If you started with 1100
or 3003 aluminum, you probably wouldn't have to stop at all.

The thing looks pretty ugly when it's done but the cavity is a near
mirror-polish, and it casts beautiful lead balls. I smoked the cavity before
pouring lead. It needs some kind of release agent, and all I've ever used
for that, with any bullet- or sinker molds, is smoke from an old kerosene
lamp.

Ed Huntress

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 17:35:27 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
If anyone is interested, I'll describe a process for making aluminum
bullet
molds that will make a machinist cry, but which turned out some of the
best
bullets I ever made. All you need is a big-mutha hammer and a file.

Ed Huntress

YES!! Please do!

I suspect Im gonna cringe when I hear the discription however... G

I guess you saw the description I posted by now. As my aging memory clanks
into gear, I remember two other points: After I made this thing I bandsawed
about a half-inch from one side of the joined mold, so that the sprue
opening to the outside was about 1/8" from the cavity. And the mold joined
so tightly that it wouldn't vent at all. So I cut four shallow vents (a
criss-cross, actually) in one side of the mold with a triangular file. I
also recall that the ball bearing was sticking in one half of the mold as I
got close to finishing it so I had to focus my filing on that side of the
mold. I'd file, then put it back together and whack it a few times, etc.
Start to finish, it took maybe ten minutes of work with about three
interruptions for annealing. I was being cautious. If you started with 1100
or 3003 aluminum, you probably wouldn't have to stop at all.

The thing looks pretty ugly when it's done but the cavity is a near
mirror-polish, and it casts beautiful lead balls. I smoked the cavity before
pouring lead. It needs some kind of release agent, and all I've ever used
for that, with any bullet- or sinker molds, is smoke from an old kerosene
lamp.

Ed Huntress

Humm the Ed's BFH Method of mould production. Most interesting.
Actually its not a bad idea. Ive been wanting to make some moulds of
my own bullet designs and can see that this would be very doable with
cherries turned on a lathe, and then pressed together in a big assed
hydraulic press. I could turn the "bullets" on the lathe, include the
sprue hole, make the blocks oversize but include dowel pins for
alignment, predrill the cavities to minimum dimensions, lay in the
patterns, then press...hummmmmmm

THANKS!!!!!!!! I know exactly where there is a 150 ton hydraulic
press that I can get some time on for nothing (Id have to make
multiple moulds though and give the shooter/operator some G)

Do all the finish work after pressing, including the handle slots, and
use the shaper to put in the vent lines.

Way way cool! Is there any particular caliber/weight you want? Ill
crank you out some as well.

Thanks again!!

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

"Gunner" wrote in message
...


THANKS!!!!!!!! I know exactly where there is a 150 ton hydraulic
press that I can get some time on for nothing (Id have to make
multiple moulds though and give the shooter/operator some G)

Do all the finish work after pressing, including the handle slots, and
use the shaper to put in the vent lines.

Way way cool! Is there any particular caliber/weight you want? Ill
crank you out some as well.

Thanks, but I don't have...well, if it works, and if it's easy with the
hydraulic press to make one, I could use a wadcutter for my .32 H&R Mag.
They're too darned expensive.

A couple of things: although use of the maul may be my innovation g, the
general method is a traditional moldmaking technique with a long history.
It's called "hubbing" (originally called "hobbing" but too many processes
were getting that label at the time). In the first half of the last century
it was a common way to make multiple mold cavities. By the '50s, moldmakers
were using annealed P6 as the mold material and squeezing it into cavity
shapes with big-ass presses. Aluminum, relatively speaking, is a piece of
cake.

Like any metalworking skill it requires some practice to get all of the ins
and outs right. I hadn't worked out how to get a flat bottom on a conical
bullet, but I'm sure there's a way, because I've seen some hubbed cavities
that had nearly straight sides. The smart thing would have been to forget
about the flat bottom, put the sprue in the middle of the butt end, and just
trim it square when you cut off the sprue.

Good luck. It's a therapeutic relief from fussy metalworking. At least, it
is when you do it with the hammer. g

Ed Huntress

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

Humm the Ed's BFH Method of mould production.

Oh, I should point out why I started this. Although it can be useful in
making conical bullet molds, my real motivation was to find an easy way to
make near-perfect round balls. Using the bearing ball for a pattern was the
whole idea. And it really worked well.

Ed Huntress

New meaning to the term "hammer forge?" How do you control the diametral
symmetry (i.e., the mold parting line has to be exactly on the diameter
centerline, else you have more material on one side of the mold than the other,
effectively locking it shut once the lead hardens). Well, maybe not locking it
shut, but making it extremely difficult to pry the bullet out of the mold.

Pretty slick idea, Ed.

Mike Eberlein

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

Humm the Ed's BFH Method of mould production.

Oh, I should point out why I started this. Although it can be useful in
making conical bullet molds, my real motivation was to find an easy way to
make near-perfect round balls. Using the bearing ball for a pattern was the
whole idea. And it really worked well.

Ed Huntress

"mikee" wrote in message
...
New meaning to the term "hammer forge?" How do you control the diametral
symmetry (i.e., the mold parting line has to be exactly on the diameter
centerline, else you have more material on one side of the mold than the
other,
effectively locking it shut once the lead hardens). Well, maybe not
locking it
shut, but making it extremely difficult to pry the bullet out of the mold.

Somewhere in there I mentioned that the ball tended to get stuck in one side
as I got close to closing the mold around it. The answer is to pull it apart
frequently and file the face of the side that's tending to stick. It never
stuck so bad I couldn't get it out, but it probably would have if I wasn't
careful. Gunner may run into a problem with this when he uses a press, but,
heck, hubbing molds has been done for around 100 years, so it can't be too
bad.

I only did it once *to completion* with a ball, and it worked. Maybe I got
lucky or maybe it's really easy.


Pretty slick idea, Ed.

Old idea. New application. The hammer is very retro. g

Ed Huntress

Hey Ed,

I would like to know how the old timers made round ball cherrys for bullet
molds. Did they form the cutting surfaces with files? It seems that one
should be able to do this with W-1 tool steel.

Bob Swinney
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"David A. Webb" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 02:47:49 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

If anyone is interested, I'll describe a process for making aluminum
bullet
molds that will make a machinist cry, but which turned out some of the
best
bullets I ever made. All you need is a big-mutha hammer and a file.

Ed Huntress

I am, I am !!! (interested in having you describe the process)

Do you need very soft aluminum so it doesn't break when you beat on it
with the hammer?

I suppose it would be better, but all I had was some cutoffs of 6061,
which
I kept annealing in the oven to keep them workable.

Anyway, I took two, 2" x 2" x 1" blocks of aluminum and a ball bearing of
the correct size. I dimpled the two blocks of aluminum to hold the bearing
in place to get started. Then I put a piece of 1/2" steel plate on top of
one block and set the whole mess on another piece of steel plate, and
began
whacking it with the hammer (a short-handled maul, actually).

This takes a fair number of whacks, and I kept rotating the top block
around
as I went. When the two blocks started to touch I took them apart and
filed
them flat, several times, until the parting plane came out fairly flat. I
clamped the two pieces together and drilled holes for guide pins, another
for a sprue, and I was done.

It cast very nice balls. I also tried turning a conical bullet pattern
from
steel and hardened it, but it all needed some more experimentation. The
aluminum wasn't filling properly around the pattern. I'm sure it would
work
if you fooled around with it.

Ed Huntress

"Bob Swinney" wrote in message
...
Hey Ed,

I would like to know how the old timers made round ball cherrys for bullet
molds. Did they form the cutting surfaces with files? It seems that one
should be able to do this with W-1 tool steel.

'Don't know, Bob. Maybe Gunner knows.

Ed Huntress

Bob Swinney wrote in message ...
Hey Ed,

I would like to know how the old timers made round ball cherrys for bullet
molds. Did they form the cutting surfaces with files? It seems that one
should be able to do this with W-1 tool steel.

Bob Swinney

Here's a clip from "The Gunsmith's Manual" by Stelle & Harrison originally
published in 1883.

It describes cutting the blank and filing the teeth. It goes into more depth
about filing the teeth and hardening, but I only have so much patience for
scanning.
Buy your own copy.

Paul K. Dickman

THE GUNSMITH'S MANUAL.
the operation: A rotating body is passed through a properly -shaped circular
aperture ill a flat steel die that is held with its upper or cutting in the
same plane as the axial line of the body rotating. That's all.
Now , to make application of the rule. Suppose we have a rifle of a certain
bore to which is to be fitted a round ball. First, take a piece of steel, we
will say about one-quarter of an inch thick, about one inch wide and about
six or eight inches long. An old file of good quality, with the temper drawn
and the teeth ground away, may answer the purpose. It should be annealed as
soft as possible.

With a drill make a hole near one end, but a little less in size than the
bullet to be produced. With a taper half-round reamer cut out the hole until
that side of it which is to be the upper or cutting edge is exactly the size
of the bullet desired.
The advantage of using this taper half- round reamer is the hole is made
perfectly round, and at the same time the taper of the reamer gives a bevel
to the hole that forming a good, strong and effective cutting edge. With a
file cut out & portion of the tool of a V shape, beveling the edges the same
as the hole as shown in Fig. 67. This V may be either cut on the end, a side
of the tool, as shown, but in use it is preferred to be cut on the side, as
then, if necessary, the hand can find a hold on that end to assist it in
operating. When done, temper for use. For the cherry , turn a piece of steel
in the lathe to fit a chuck. Half-inch octagon is perhaps the best size of
steel from which to make cherries of less diameter than half-inch, and the
length about six inches. The end on which the cherry is to be made , is
roughly fashioned into a ball, leaving the end I where the centre supports
it to be removed by the I lathe tool or by filing.

When fitted so that the rough blank will be held firmly in the chuck, run
the lathe at moderate speed, set the T rest so that the steel die can be
held on it about level with the under side of the rotating blank. On the
rest lay the die, and press the opening so as to receive the rough sphere,
applying oil and not pressing too hard. Let it gradually scrape its way
through the circular aperture, the V-shaped opening in the side receiving
the stem to which the cherry is attached. In Fig. 68 is shown the finished
blank after being passed through the die. If it be preferred the die may be
held in the hands and not supported on the T rest. Take care to supply
plenty of oil to the work, as this win prevent scratching or tearing the
cherry while being formed. It is well to make two of these holes, one at
each end of the piece of steel, roughing the blank with the first, which is
a little larger than the one used to finish the cherry of the exact size.
When this tool gets dull grind on the upper or cutting edge, but not too
much, as it will enlarge the hole, and the result will be to make a larger
cherry.

To form these blanks into cutting tools, a copy can be taken from the
cherries as sold to the trade.
Bear in mind to leave the grooves deep enough to receive the metal cut from
the blank mould when in operation.
It will be observed that the cherries as purchased (Fig. 69) do not have
their cutting ends terminate in that portion of the mould, but usually on
one side. This is done to insure a perfectly spherical form by having a
cutting side operating at the bot- tom of the hole while it is being formed.
It is somewhat difficult to make this form of cutting edge, and some
patience and care must be exercised or the blank may be spoiled.

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 03:08:23 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Bob Swinney" wrote in message
...
Hey Ed,

I would like to know how the old timers made round ball cherrys for bullet
molds. Did they form the cutting surfaces with files? It seems that one
should be able to do this with W-1 tool steel.

'Don't know, Bob. Maybe Gunner knows.

Ed Huntress

Hand cut round cutter and the two halves were closed around them. In
fact most molds are still made that way today...which is why nose pour
molds are hard to find..the shank of such a cutter has to be very small
and very fragile. Early molds were usually brass, so it didnt take much
of a cutter.

Gunner

The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty."
Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly
save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long