I tried alt.electronics.repair and didn't gat any good ideas. I don't
expect you geniuses to solve my problem but maybe someone can point me
in the right direction. The 3-wheeler only cost $400 when I bought it
used many years ago!

Between the flywheel pickup coil (magneto) and the high voltage coil for
the spark plug there is a black box that controls the spark and its
advance. This box on My Kawasaki 3-wheeler is called the Igniter and
this simple tiny circuit board costs $400! It was designed before 1982
and contains one IC and a bunch of discrete components. There has got
to be a better (cheaper) way to do this.

The spark starts at 10 deg before Top Dead Center and advances to 40 deg
before TDC by 2000 rpm. Since electronics cannot advance time
apparently the pickup is at 40 deg BTDC and the pulse is delayed to 10
deg BTDC at low speeds. If the timing delay fails the spark reverts to
40 deg BTDC for all speeds, meaning the engine cannot run at low speeds
therefore cannot be started. Bad idea.

How could this black box be designed using components availiable today
to control the spark advance, preferably adjustable or programable so it
would work in a wide variety of ATVs etc? If possible It would be
preferable to have the failure mode at low speed advance. Certainly I
would hope for a price below $400. All suggestions welcome

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

Nick Hull wrote:

I tried alt.electronics.repair and didn't gat any good ideas. I don't
expect you geniuses to solve my problem but maybe someone can point me
in the right direction. The 3-wheeler only cost $400 when I bought it
used many years ago!

Between the flywheel pickup coil (magneto) and the high voltage coil for
the spark plug there is a black box that controls the spark and its
advance. This box on My Kawasaki 3-wheeler is called the Igniter and
this simple tiny circuit board costs $400! It was designed before 1982
and contains one IC and a bunch of discrete components. There has got
to be a better (cheaper) way to do this.

The spark starts at 10 deg before Top Dead Center and advances to 40 deg
before TDC by 2000 rpm. Since electronics cannot advance time
apparently the pickup is at 40 deg BTDC and the pulse is delayed to 10
deg BTDC at low speeds. If the timing delay fails the spark reverts to
40 deg BTDC for all speeds, meaning the engine cannot run at low speeds
therefore cannot be started. Bad idea.

How could this black box be designed using components availiable today
to control the spark advance, preferably adjustable or programable so it
would work in a wide variety of ATVs etc? If possible It would be
preferable to have the failure mode at low speed advance. Certainly I
would hope for a price below $400. All suggestions welcome

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

Look at the Boyer Brandsen electronic ignition conversion kits sold for
the older Brit bikes. A swap meet should get you a box alone for about
$40 or so, new kits run about $200 AFAIR. Use a magnet swinging past a
coil to trigger, all timing is built into the box.

There may be other units out there that can be grafted in. Got a bike
wrecker near you?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 12:59:21 GMT, Nick Hull
wrote:

I tried alt.electronics.repair and didn't gat any good ideas. I don't
expect you geniuses to solve my problem but maybe someone can point me
in the right direction. The 3-wheeler only cost $400 when I bought it
used many years ago!

Between the flywheel pickup coil (magneto) and the high voltage coil for
the spark plug there is a black box that controls the spark and its
advance. This box on My Kawasaki 3-wheeler is called the Igniter and
this simple tiny circuit board costs $400! It was designed before 1982
and contains one IC and a bunch of discrete components. There has got
to be a better (cheaper) way to do this.

The spark starts at 10 deg before Top Dead Center and advances to 40 deg
before TDC by 2000 rpm. Since electronics cannot advance time
apparently the pickup is at 40 deg BTDC and the pulse is delayed to 10
deg BTDC at low speeds. If the timing delay fails the spark reverts to
40 deg BTDC for all speeds, meaning the engine cannot run at low speeds
therefore cannot be started. Bad idea.

How could this black box be designed using components availiable today
to control the spark advance, preferably adjustable or programable so it
would work in a wide variety of ATVs etc? If possible It would be
preferable to have the failure mode at low speed advance. Certainly I
would hope for a price below $400. All suggestions welcome

Some of the first solid state ignitions for garden tractors used two
pins to trigger the coil. The one for TDC was taller and swung closer
to the trigger coil. The advanced timing was shorter and wouldn't
trigger the coil at lower rpms. As the rpm came up the advanced timing
would kick in. Chrysler solid boxes have been substituted on some of
them.

http://sears.panmar.net/ssi.pdf
--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

Nick Hull wrote:
How could this black box be designed using components availiable today
to control the spark advance, preferably adjustable or programable so it
would work in a wide variety of ATVs etc? If possible It would be
preferable to have the failure mode at low speed advance. Certainly I
would hope for a price below $400. All suggestions welcome

I can't answer your technical questions, but ebay and forums such as
http://www.atvswapmeet.com/ are good places to look for used parts,
probably much less than $400.

--
Gary Brady
Austin, TX
www.powdercoatoven.4t.com

"Nick Hull" wrote in message
...
I tried alt.electronics.repair and didn't gat any good ideas. I don't
expect you geniuses to solve my problem but maybe someone can point me
in the right direction. The 3-wheeler only cost $400 when I bought it
used many years ago!

Between the flywheel pickup coil (magneto) and the high voltage coil for
the spark plug there is a black box that controls the spark and its
advance. This box on My Kawasaki 3-wheeler is called the Igniter and
this simple tiny circuit board costs $400! It was designed before 1982
and contains one IC and a bunch of discrete components. There has got
to be a better (cheaper) way to do this.

The spark starts at 10 deg before Top Dead Center and advances to 40 deg
before TDC by 2000 rpm. Since electronics cannot advance time
apparently the pickup is at 40 deg BTDC and the pulse is delayed to 10
deg BTDC at low speeds. If the timing delay fails the spark reverts to
40 deg BTDC for all speeds, meaning the engine cannot run at low speeds
therefore cannot be started. Bad idea.

How could this black box be designed using components availiable today
to control the spark advance, preferably adjustable or programable so it
would work in a wide variety of ATVs etc? If possible It would be
preferable to have the failure mode at low speed advance. Certainly I
would hope for a price below $400. All suggestions welcome

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
I had a Honda with intermittent electronic advance. It used a trigger coil
and a speed sensing coil. The speed sensing coil generated a voltage which
increased with speed, much like a generator. This voltage was fed to a
comparator, along with a decreasing ramp voltage derived from the trigger
signal. When the RPM was low the ramp voltage had to decay to a low value to
match the low speed sensing voltage, so the spark was delayed. When the RPM
was high the decreasing ramp voltage matched the higher speed sensing
voltage much sooner, thus advancing the spark.

Loss of the speed sensing voltage thus resulted in maximum retard of the
spark. It wouldn't run for beans then, but sometimes it would suddenly start
working and you needed to be holding on tight!

I think this basic idea is how many analog electronic advance systems work.
I imagine the speed sensing may be done by integrating the triggger pulses,
also.
Don Young

On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 04:13:49 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gary
Brady quickly quoth:

Nick Hull wrote:
How could this black box be designed using components availiable today
to control the spark advance, preferably adjustable or programable so it
would work in a wide variety of ATVs etc? If possible It would be
preferable to have the failure mode at low speed advance. Certainly I
would hope for a price below $400. All suggestions welcome

I can't answer your technical questions, but ebay and forums such as
http://www.atvswapmeet.com/ are good places to look for used parts,
probably much less than $400.

I've been working on my neighbor's 1985 Honda Big Red 250cc trike
lately. 6 months ago, it wouldn't shift properly and he had a guy
tear the right side case off and the guy shafted him. He said the
clutches were bad and wanted $1,000 to repair it, then he stole some
parts, "borrowed" my neighbor's DR mower and didn't return it, stole
his Husky weed eater, and a few other things like that.

I got into it about 3 months ago and had my neighbor order the factory
service manual. We ordered what looked like all the missing parts
after I tore into the left side case and found the shift lever
actuator bracket in 3 pieces. We could have welded it but he wanted to
put a new piece in. C'est la vie.

OK, so I put it back together, it shifts fine now but I'm having
trouble with the kickstarter ratchet always being engaged, as if the
starter pedal is being held down. I've tried 4 ways to reinstall it,
reading the installation instructions time and time again but I'm not
quite "getting it", I guess.

Has anyone here torn these down before? What am I missing? I hook the
spring on the cutout in the case, and align the ratchet lever with the
ratchet guide, but the index mark is 180 degrees off. If I wind the
lever around to bring the index mark up, the shaft unwinds by itself
when I let loose of it to put the cover on. This is downright
maddening!

Clues, please!


---=====---
After all else fails, read the instructions.
---=====---
Website Design and Update http://www.diversify.com

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 04:13:49 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gary
Brady quickly quoth:

Nick Hull wrote:
How could this black box be designed using components availiable today
to control the spark advance, preferably adjustable or programable so it
would work in a wide variety of ATVs etc? If possible It would be
preferable to have the failure mode at low speed advance. Certainly I
would hope for a price below $400. All suggestions welcome

I can't answer your technical questions, but ebay and forums such as
http://www.atvswapmeet.com/ are good places to look for used parts,
probably much less than $400.

I've been working on my neighbor's 1985 Honda Big Red 250cc trike
lately. 6 months ago, it wouldn't shift properly and he had a guy
tear the right side case off and the guy shafted him. He said the
clutches were bad and wanted $1,000 to repair it, then he stole some
parts, "borrowed" my neighbor's DR mower and didn't return it, stole
his Husky weed eater, and a few other things like that.

I got into it about 3 months ago and had my neighbor order the factory
service manual. We ordered what looked like all the missing parts
after I tore into the left side case and found the shift lever
actuator bracket in 3 pieces. We could have welded it but he wanted to
put a new piece in. C'est la vie.

OK, so I put it back together, it shifts fine now but I'm having
trouble with the kickstarter ratchet always being engaged, as if the
starter pedal is being held down. I've tried 4 ways to reinstall it,
reading the installation instructions time and time again but I'm not
quite "getting it", I guess.

Has anyone here torn these down before? What am I missing? I hook the
spring on the cutout in the case, and align the ratchet lever with the
ratchet guide, but the index mark is 180 degrees off. If I wind the
lever around to bring the index mark up, the shaft unwinds by itself
when I let loose of it to put the cover on. This is downright
maddening!

Clues, please!


---=====---
After all else fails, read the instructions.
---=====---
Website Design and Update http://www.diversify.com
I am not at all familiar with this machine but, in general, you need to look
at the case, cover, and shaft to identify the "up-stop" where the shaft is
positioned at rest. See what disengages the ratchet at that point. Check how
the spring has to be wound and secured to hold the shaft rotated to that
point. Also check how the ratchet is engaged and the spring wound when the
starter is pushed down. This may help if no one has better information.
Don Young