I've been reading through web pages and old posts about electrolytic rust
removal, and apparently using stainless as an electrode is a no-no due to
toxic waste concerns. As such, a "graphite rod" is the preferred thing.
My question is, when they say "graphite rod" do they mean any specific
type of graphite rod? Could I use rods for carbon arc welding, or
graphite rods used for EDM? Looks like Enco has graphite EDM rods on sale
(or at least they did a little while ago) and I've been wanting to try
removing some rust with this technique, but I'm not sure if these are the
rods I should/can be using or not. Thanks in advance for any assistance!

Don't know where you read that but my electrode is a piece of rebar from
Home Depot. Works great.

Steve.


"The Hurdy Gurdy Man" wrote in message
...

I've been reading through web pages and old posts about electrolytic rust
removal, and apparently using stainless as an electrode is a no-no due to
toxic waste concerns. As such, a "graphite rod" is the preferred thing.
My question is, when they say "graphite rod" do they mean any specific
type of graphite rod? Could I use rods for carbon arc welding, or
graphite rods used for EDM? Looks like Enco has graphite EDM rods on sale
(or at least they did a little while ago) and I've been wanting to try
removing some rust with this technique, but I'm not sure if these are the
rods I should/can be using or not. Thanks in advance for any assistance!

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 10:37:20 GMT, The Hurdy Gurdy Man
wrote:


I've been reading through web pages and old posts about electrolytic rust
removal, and apparently using stainless as an electrode is a no-no due to
toxic waste concerns. As such, a "graphite rod" is the preferred thing.
My question is, when they say "graphite rod" do they mean any specific
type of graphite rod? Could I use rods for carbon arc welding, or
graphite rods used for EDM? Looks like Enco has graphite EDM rods on sale
(or at least they did a little while ago) and I've been wanting to try
removing some rust with this technique, but I'm not sure if these are the
rods I should/can be using or not. Thanks in advance for any assistance!

Just find the cheapest source of graphite that you can. I found some
on eBay.

Whatever you use, remember this: a bit flat piece has much more
surface area than a rod. More surface area = more current. I got
lucky and found some big graphite blocks that I bandsaw into 1/2"
thick plates. (Move your saw outdoors for this. It's a messy job.
Don't set the saw on your driveway, either.)

There's a problem with searching for "graphite" on eBay. You'll get
thousands of listings of tennis racquets to golf clubs to fishing
poles. Instead, search for graphite plate*, graphite stock, graphite
bar*, etc. The * is a wild card that will give you hits on both plate
and plates.

The binder in some types of graphite doesn't hold up well in the
electrolysis vat. I've had some graphite plates dissolve in a day or
so. On the other hand, I've had some graphite last for a year, or
more, under continuous use.

If you have a foundry or mill that uses an electric arc furnace or an
aluminum smelter, nearby, see if you can beg some stub end of their
carbon rods.

Here's a tip: If you have a 3,000 psi pressure washer, use it for
removing the gunk that forms during electrolysis. It works great and
saves lots of elbow grease.

Good luck.

Orrin

"The Hurdy Gurdy Man" wrote in message
...

I've been reading through web pages and old posts about electrolytic rust
removal, and apparently using stainless as an electrode is a no-no due to
toxic waste concerns. As such, a "graphite rod" is the preferred thing.
My question is, when they say "graphite rod" do they mean any specific
type of graphite rod? Could I use rods for carbon arc welding, or
graphite rods used for EDM? Looks like Enco has graphite EDM rods on sale
(or at least they did a little while ago) and I've been wanting to try
removing some rust with this technique, but I'm not sure if these are the
rods I should/can be using or not. Thanks in advance for any assistance!

First, I'm curious about what the toxic waste issue would be with stainless.
Do you have a link or a reference?

For swabbing, I use a 1.25" x .75" x 9" slab of Poco 3 (EDM graphite) that I
cut off an old EDM electrode with a hand saw. It cuts about like maple. EDM
graphite has no binders and Poco 3 is very dense and strong. It probably
will outlast me and the next two generations of my family. I just clamp the
battery clamp from my 4A battery charger to the end of it and wear rubber
gloves.

For use in a tank, my electrode is a plain sheet of mild steel (the cover
off an old microwave oven) that I sanded clean on one side with a disk
sander. Just wipe it dry when you're done. I see no need for stainless.
However, I do wonder about what could be toxic in using stainless for this
job.

Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

For use in a tank, my electrode is a plain sheet of mild steel (the cover
off an old microwave oven) that I sanded clean on one side with a disk
sander. Just wipe it dry when you're done. I see no need for stainless.
However, I do wonder about what could be toxic in using stainless for this
job.

Could be chromium. Also, you are talking about the *anode*. This is
the sacraficial electrode in plating so you will be eroding a metalic
anode into your solution thus conaminating it. You won't get the eroded
material plating out nicely - concentrations are all wrong for plating.
Graphite won't do that so is to be preffered for electrocleaning.

Ted

"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

For use in a tank, my electrode is a plain sheet of mild steel (the
cover
off an old microwave oven) that I sanded clean on one side with a disk
sander. Just wipe it dry when you're done. I see no need for stainless.
However, I do wonder about what could be toxic in using stainless for
this
job.

Could be chromium. Also, you are talking about the *anode*. This is
the sacraficial electrode in plating so you will be eroding a metalic
anode into your solution thus conaminating it. You won't get the eroded
material plating out nicely - concentrations are all wrong for plating.
Graphite won't do that so is to be preffered for electrocleaning.

From my reading about the process (and I know little about electrochemistry
myself), it appears there is no erosion of metal involved at all, on either
side. That's why I question the idea that stainless causes a problem.

Ed Huntress

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:44:15 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


From my reading about the process (and I know little about electrochemistry
myself), it appears there is no erosion of metal involved at all, on either
side. That's why I question the idea that stainless causes a problem.

Ed Huntress


I have used stainless because I have some sheet which is about the right size.
I have neither seen or measured any loss from the stainless anode although it
is very obvious (from current variations) that one must run with reverse
polarity regularly to de-polarize the anode. I imagine that carbon would not
suffer from this problem???

Mark Rand
RTFM

Do a google search on electrolysis, and you'll find quite a bit of info.
Here's one particular article written by a friend of mine - Richard
Angelico of New Orleans, La. He is a fellow relic-hunter who finds quite a
bit of good 'ole Civil War ordinance - specifically - he finds a good many
bombs and cannonballs.

He uses 316 stainless for his anode... and his results are fantastic.

Link to his article:
http://www.troycustomdetectors.com/s...ctrolysis.html

Rex S.

Mark Rand wrote in
:

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:44:15 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


From my reading about the process (and I know little about
electrochemistry myself), it appears there is no erosion of metal
involved at all, on either side. That's why I question the idea that
stainless causes a problem.

Ed Huntress


I have used stainless because I have some sheet which is about the
right size. I have neither seen or measured any loss from the
stainless anode although it is very obvious (from current variations)
that one must run with reverse polarity regularly to de-polarize the
anode. I imagine that carbon would not suffer from this problem???

Mark Rand
RTFM

"ShadowHawk" wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s53...
Do a google search on electrolysis, and you'll find quite a bit of info.
Here's one particular article written by a friend of mine - Richard
Angelico of New Orleans, La. He is a fellow relic-hunter who finds quite
a
bit of good 'ole Civil War ordinance - specifically - he finds a good many
bombs and cannonballs.

Some may be interested to know that they use this method to reduce rust and
to remove salt from metal objects recovered from ancient ship wrecks. The
time they leave it in the tank is often up to two YEARS. Yike.

Ed Huntress

"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:44:15 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


From my reading about the process (and I know little about
electrochemistry
myself), it appears there is no erosion of metal involved at all, on
either
side. That's why I question the idea that stainless causes a problem.

Ed Huntress


I have used stainless because I have some sheet which is about the right
size.
I have neither seen or measured any loss from the stainless anode although
it
is very obvious (from current variations) that one must run with reverse
polarity regularly to de-polarize the anode. I imagine that carbon would
not
suffer from this problem???

I don't know, Mark. The people who seem to know what they're talking about
on this subject describe it as a very weak action, which won't even affect
black rust (Fe3O4). It only works on red rust. The weak alkaline solution
doesn't produce any significant quantity of ionized metal ions. It doesn't
do much of anything, in fact, except strip red rust somehow.

The black grunge that remains on the part is mostly black rust. It comes off
easily with a light brushing from a stainless brush. In a couple of cases
I've used hydrochloric acid to remove the black rust, and then put the part
back in the electrolytic process in the hope that it will remove any
chloride ions picked up from the acid.

I don't know. But I have a lot of de-rusted parts to show that it does a
good job.

Ed Huntress

In article , Ed Huntress
says...

Some may be interested to know that they use this method to reduce rust and
to remove salt from metal objects recovered from ancient ship wrecks. The
time they leave it in the tank is often up to two YEARS. Yike.

That's *nothing* Ed. I personally have some rusty artifacts
in my shop that have remained in situ for up to *five* whole
years. They seem to be aging quite nicely indeed.

:^)

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:55:08 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


First, I'm curious about what the toxic waste issue would be with stainless.
Do you have a link or a reference?

Snip

Ed Huntress

I don't have a reference, but I have about eight years of almost
continuous experience using electrolysis.

I was told that stainless steel wouldn't degrade when used as a waste
electrode when doing electrolytic derusting. So, I used a thin sheet
of SS scrap.

It took a while, but the sheet stainless eventually looked like a lace
curtain. Worse, my solution turned yellow: hexavalent chromium.

I once worked at a facility where they pumped their discarded
chromate-treated cooling tower water into the ground. That was then.
Now, hundreds of millions of yours and my tax dollars are being spent
trying to get it pumped back out of the aquifer.

Orrin

"Orrin Iseminger" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:55:08 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


First, I'm curious about what the toxic waste issue would be with
stainless.
Do you have a link or a reference?

Snip

Ed Huntress

I don't have a reference, but I have about eight years of almost
continuous experience using electrolysis.

I was told that stainless steel wouldn't degrade when used as a waste
electrode when doing electrolytic derusting. So, I used a thin sheet
of SS scrap.

It took a while, but the sheet stainless eventually looked like a lace
curtain. Worse, my solution turned yellow: hexavalent chromium.

That's interesting. Did you use one of the standard, weak alkaline
solutions?

Ed Huntress

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:29:42 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

,;"Orrin Iseminger" wrote in message
...
,; On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:55:08 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
,; wrote:
,;
,;
,; First, I'm curious about what the toxic waste issue would be with
,;stainless.
,; Do you have a link or a reference?
,;
,; Snip
,;
,; Ed Huntress
,;
,; I don't have a reference, but I have about eight years of almost
,; continuous experience using electrolysis.
,;
,; I was told that stainless steel wouldn't degrade when used as a waste
,; electrode when doing electrolytic derusting. So, I used a thin sheet
,; of SS scrap.
,;
,; It took a while, but the sheet stainless eventually looked like a lace
,; curtain. Worse, my solution turned yellow: hexavalent chromium.
,;
,;That's interesting. Did you use one of the standard, weak alkaline
,;solutions?

Ed

If you throw the kind of voltages that are used in this process at an
anode something is going to give. You can't pass a current from an
electrode into a solution without a chemical reaction. At the anode it
is either an oxidation of something in solution or an oxidation of the
anode. You must have one or the other to pass a current. If the
current is so high that there is nothing available from the solution
to oxidize then the anode is going to go.
,;
,;Ed Huntress
,;

"Don Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:29:42 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

,;"Orrin Iseminger" wrote in message
...
,; On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:55:08 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
,; wrote:
,;
,;
,; First, I'm curious about what the toxic waste issue would be with
,;stainless.
,; Do you have a link or a reference?
,;
,; Snip
,;
,; Ed Huntress
,;
,; I don't have a reference, but I have about eight years of almost
,; continuous experience using electrolysis.
,;
,; I was told that stainless steel wouldn't degrade when used as a waste
,; electrode when doing electrolytic derusting. So, I used a thin sheet
,; of SS scrap.
,;
,; It took a while, but the sheet stainless eventually looked like a
lace
,; curtain. Worse, my solution turned yellow: hexavalent chromium.
,;
,;That's interesting. Did you use one of the standard, weak alkaline
,;solutions?

Ed

If you throw the kind of voltages that are used in this process at an
anode something is going to give. You can't pass a current from an
electrode into a solution without a chemical reaction. At the anode it
is either an oxidation of something in solution or an oxidation of the
anode. You must have one or the other to pass a current. If the
current is so high that there is nothing available from the solution
to oxidize then the anode is going to go.

Ok, I'm just listening, but it strikes me funny, because I've seen no
evidence that my graphite- or mild-steel electrodes have eroded. I do have a
good triple-beam balance. Maybe I'll start weighing that sheet of mild
steel, before and after. I certainly do enough of it that I should be able
to measure it.

Ed Huntress

,; It took a while, but the sheet stainless eventually looked like a
lace
,; curtain. Worse, my solution turned yellow: hexavalent chromium.
,;
,;That's interesting. Did you use one of the standard, weak alkaline
,;solutions?

If you throw the kind of voltages that are used in this process at an
anode something is going to give. You can't pass a current from an
electrode into a solution without a chemical reaction. At the anode it
is either an oxidation of something in solution or an oxidation of the
anode. You must have one or the other to pass a current. If the
current is so high that there is nothing available from the solution
to oxidize then the anode is going to go.

I completely agree that you have to have oxidation at the anode, I just
find it hard to belive that you will produce Cr(VI) and not Cr(III). So
far as I remember my electrochemistry courses, electrolytic dissolution
pretty much always produces the lowest stable oxidation state. I've
done a lot of electropolishing of stainless steel, and those solutions
always turn green, consistent with Cr(III). Have you chemically
verified the presence of hexavalent chromium or did you just trust the
color, which could be due to dissolved rust or other metal ions at low
concentration (no, I didn't on my solutions)?

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:29:42 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

Snip

That's interesting. Did you use one of the standard, weak alkaline
solutions?

Ed Huntress

I use washing soda with a little lye thrown in to cut any grease or
paint that might be on the item.

Orrin

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 06:19:24 GMT, "Carl Ijames"
wrote:


I completely agree that you have to have oxidation at the anode, I just
find it hard to belive that you will produce Cr(VI) and not Cr(III). So
far as I remember my electrochemistry courses, electrolytic dissolution
pretty much always produces the lowest stable oxidation state. I've
done a lot of electropolishing of stainless steel, and those solutions
always turn green, consistent with Cr(III). Have you chemically
verified the presence of hexavalent chromium or did you just trust the
color, which could be due to dissolved rust or other metal ions at low
concentration (no, I didn't on my solutions)?

No, I haven't run any chemical analysis. I'm not in a position where
I have to prove anything to myself. In eight years I've used a
variety of electrodes and have seen just about every color in the
solution caused by the rust being removed.

The only time I got a yellow solution is when I used stainless steel
that disinegrated as described. I've been around lots of stationary
Diesels that used chromate-treated coolant. The appearance was
exactly the same. That's good enough for me.

I have never seen a green-tinted electrolyte in my setup.

If I tell people to use stainless electrodes and they go ahead and do.
And, if they discard their electrolyte on their property, what
position does that put me into?

In this litigious society, I'm going to express every caution that I
can think of.

Orrin

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 06:19:24 GMT, "Carl Ijames"
wrote:

,; ,; It took a while, but the sheet stainless eventually looked like a
,;lace
,; ,; curtain. Worse, my solution turned yellow: hexavalent chromium.
,; ,;
,; ,;That's interesting. Did you use one of the standard, weak alkaline
,; ,;solutions?
,;
,; If you throw the kind of voltages that are used in this process at an
,; anode something is going to give. You can't pass a current from an
,; electrode into a solution without a chemical reaction. At the anode it
,; is either an oxidation of something in solution or an oxidation of the
,; anode. You must have one or the other to pass a current. If the
,; current is so high that there is nothing available from the solution
,; to oxidize then the anode is going to go.
,;
,;I completely agree that you have to have oxidation at the anode, I just
,;find it hard to belive that you will produce Cr(VI) and not Cr(III). So
,;far as I remember my electrochemistry courses, electrolytic dissolution
,;pretty much always produces the lowest stable oxidation state. I've
,;done a lot of electropolishing of stainless steel, and those solutions
,;always turn green, consistent with Cr(III). Have you chemically
,;verified the presence of hexavalent chromium or did you just trust the
,;color, which could be due to dissolved rust or other metal ions at low
,;concentration (no, I didn't on my solutions)?

I agree that Cr+6 is not going to be produced. I never said that Cr+6
was produced. I doubt if it happens and if it was produced it would be
reduced to Cr+3 at the cathode. There is no way one will accumulate
chromates in this procedure.

For those who don't believe that the anode can be dissolved note that
this fellow has been doing electropolishing. For the uninitiated the
piece to be electropolished is the anode. They ramp the voltage up so
one gets anodic dissolution in addition to the normal gas evolution.
The theory is that the peaks dissolve faster than the valleys so one
ends up with a flat surface. In fact the theory is correct and with
the proper voltage and proper solutions you can make some pretty nice
stainless steel mirrors. In order to make those mirrors one dissolves
stainless steel from the surface. I rest my case.

One of those solutions was a mixture of acetic anhydride and
perchloric acid. That one is not for the faint of heart. Due to some
faulty decisions an entire city block was removed in Los Angles. That
gave some more bad publicity to the perchloric acid business. My
research director owned the largest plant for producing perchloric
acid in the USA at the time. He was not pleased.

In this litigious society, I'm going to express every caution that I
can think of.

Amen, sadly.

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames

Try this site.


http://www.oldengine.org/members/bil...electrodes.htm

Orrin Iseminger wrote:

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:29:42 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:
That's interesting. Did you use one of the standard, weak alkaline
solutions?

I use washing soda with a little lye thrown in to cut any grease or
paint that might be on the item.

Of the various solutions I've tried for electrocleaning, I've had the
best success with this one:
http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_1999_retired_files/E-CLEAN.TXT

Ted

"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
...
Orrin Iseminger wrote:

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:29:42 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:
That's interesting. Did you use one of the standard, weak alkaline
solutions?

I use washing soda with a little lye thrown in to cut any grease or
paint that might be on the item.

Of the various solutions I've tried for electrocleaning, I've had the
best success with this one:
http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_1999_retired_files/E-CLEAN.TXT

Yes, it's your formula that I use, Ted, and it works great. I have no idea
why some of those ingredients are in there, but it works. g

In a tank, I just use washing soda.

Ed Huntress

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:56:30 GMT, Ted Edwards
wrote:

Of the various solutions I've tried for electrocleaning, I've had the
best success with this one:
http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_1999_retired_files/E-CLEAN.TXT

Ted


Your recipe is the one I tell folks about, but perhaps you can shed
some light on it for me.

When I do the calculations for a 55 gallon batch (I have two vats, one
55-gallons and the other over 100-gallons) that figures out to a very
large quantity of washing soda. Out of necessity, I mix my solutions
weaker. I still get all the current draw that my power supplies can
handle.

Orrin

Orrin Iseminger wrote:

Your recipe is the one I tell folks about, but perhaps you can shed
some light on it for me.

What's the question?

When I do the calculations for a 55 gallon batch (I have two vats, one
55-gallons and the other over 100-gallons) that figures out to a very
large quantity of washing soda. Out of necessity, I mix my solutions
weaker. I still get all the current draw that my power supplies can
handle.

Your weaker solution will have lower conductivity but, from your last
sentence, that is irrelevent to the current flow. Do you find it just
as effective as a higher concentration?

Ted

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:55:01 GMT, Ted Edwards
wrote:

Orrin Iseminger wrote:

Your recipe is the one I tell folks about, but perhaps you can shed
some light on it for me.

What's the question?

Other than current draw, is there any advantage to mixing my solutions
as strong as your recipe calls for?

Because of the size of the parts I de-rust and the size of my "waste"
electrodes, I'm able to load all my DC power supplies to their rated
capacity, 10 amperes.


When I do the calculations for a 55 gallon batch (I have two vats, one
55-gallons and the other over 100-gallons) that figures out to a very
large quantity of washing soda. Out of necessity, I mix my solutions
weaker. I still get all the current draw that my power supplies can
handle.

Your weaker solution will have lower conductivity but, from your last
sentence, that is irrelevent to the current flow. Do you find it just
as effective as a higher concentration?

Ted

I've only mixed a five gallon batch according to your recipe. I've
never been able to see any difference between the results it brings
and the results my weaker solutions yield in the large tanks.

Orrin

..

"Orrin Iseminger" wrote in message
...


I've only mixed a five gallon batch according to your recipe. I've
never been able to see any difference between the results it brings
and the results my weaker solutions yield in the large tanks.

Orrin

Regarding tanks, have you ever compared the weak solution of Ted's formula
with the performance of straight washing soda?

Ed Huntress

Orrin Iseminger wrote:

I've only mixed a five gallon batch according to your recipe. I've
never been able to see any difference between the results it brings
and the results my weaker solutions yield in the large tanks.

The big difference between us is that I was doing occassional cleaning
and plating and was concerned about deterioration of solutions sitting
around in tanks. I, therefore, pursued brush cleaning and plating and
never really tried a more dilute solution in a tank. I would guess that
the more dilute solution *might* take longer to work. This would be a
PITA for brush work.

I would say that if you don't see any difference in performance, dillute
it even further until you do. I would appreciate hearing the results.

Ted

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:39:13 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Orrin Iseminger" wrote in message
.. .


I've only mixed a five gallon batch according to your recipe. I've
never been able to see any difference between the results it brings
and the results my weaker solutions yield in the large tanks.

Orrin

Regarding tanks, have you ever compared the weak solution of Ted's formula
with the performance of straight washing soda?

Ed Huntress


I tend to use clothes washing powder, with a bit of bicarbonate of soda if I
have it lying around. Seems to work ok for me. I suspect that anything ionic,
basic and with non strongly-oxidising ions will do the job.


Mark Rand
RTFM

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:45:48 +0000, Mark Rand
wrote:

I tend to use clothes washing powder, with a bit of bicarbonate of soda if I
have it lying around. Seems to work ok for me. I suspect that anything ionic,
basic and with non strongly-oxidising ions will do the job.


Mark Rand
RTFM

I was asked to give a demonstration, once, and couldn't find any
washing soda. So, I used Arm and Hammer Fabricare, instead. It
worked, but the suds were a nuisance.

Orrin