The project: Joining two .250 steel rods. Butt joint. The rods are approx
48" in length,
and appear to be a mild or very low carbon steel, with a thin coating
similar to galvanize.
Need a good solid joint. They drive these things into the ground to support
plants.

First thought was to spin them, but I can't get enough RPM/pressure to even
come close
with anything I have available.

Current thought is to maybe modify a bandsaw welder to do the job. Cross
section of the rod
is .049 sq. in., so it is in the ballpark with a 1" bandsaw blade. Would it
work? The joint
needs to be somewhat smooth, but not perfect. If it would work, any
suggestions as to where to source a welder relatively cheap?

Any other great ideas? I've been told that there are 20,000 of these to
do!

Thanks,

Bill

"Bill Marrs" wrote in message
news:Zt8Gf.6740$0i1.4542@trnddc04...
The project: Joining two .250 steel rods. Butt joint. The rods are
approx
48" in length,
and appear to be a mild or very low carbon steel, with a thin coating
similar to galvanize.
Need a good solid joint. They drive these things into the ground to
support
plants.

First thought was to spin them, but I can't get enough RPM/pressure to
even
come close
with anything I have available.

Current thought is to maybe modify a bandsaw welder to do the job. Cross
section of the rod
is .049 sq. in., so it is in the ballpark with a 1" bandsaw blade. Would
it
work? The joint
needs to be somewhat smooth, but not perfect. If it would work, any
suggestions as to where to source a welder relatively cheap?

Any other great ideas? I've been told that there are 20,000 of these to
do!

Thanks,

Bill



Modified spot welder?
Make a machine to drill and ream the ends, add dowel and adhesive?
Tig weld a spot on 2 sides?

If they only get driven in, but not taken out you could place a sleeve
over the joint and crimp/compress/stake.

What does the corrosion resistance need to be?

-Dave

Why can't the item be made from a single 96" long rod?

Best wishes,

Chris

Why can't the item be made from a single 96" long rod?

Best wishes,

Chris

Good thought, but they do need to be removed. They are used for support on
bare root
nursery stock, and get pushed in/pulled out at least once a year. Corrosion
resistance is
"not much". After you use them once the ground end is pretty much rusted.

wrote in message
oups.com...
If they only get driven in, but not taken out you could place a sleeve
over the joint and crimp/compress/stake.

What does the corrosion resistance need to be?

-Dave

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:vB8Gf.782792$xm3.168100@attbi_s21...
Modified spot welder?
Make a machine to drill and ream the ends, add dowel and adhesive?
Tig weld a spot on 2 sides?



Modified spot welder was one of my first thoughts. Big old spot welders are
relatively
cheap. Make a couple of clamps, turn it on it's side or jack it up to clear
the lower rod, and
go to welding.

Drill/ream/tig and anything else that requires any skill---not likely. This
needs to be a
low skill level project. I know that I am not going to stand there and weld
20,000 pcs.
After I get it up and running, it will get handed off to one of the crew.

Good question. I haven't asked, but I'm sure the answer is: "Because we
have 20,000
4 footers, and we want to get some use out of them. " Possibly next year
the task will be
to "cut all the 8 foot ones in half---we need 4 ft rods." Gotta love jobs
like this, it keeps
life interesting!


"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
ups.com...
Why can't the item be made from a single 96" long rod?

Best wishes,

Chris

That was what I assumed the reason would be, but 20,000 is a hell of a
lot of rods to join! Ask around and you might find a machine which
doesn't need modifying. I've seen machines designed to butt weld metal
strips, rather like a giant band saw blade welder. I think they called
them "rim welders", but only because they were on a wheel production
line. I don't know there proper name.

Chris.

Aargh, sorry: "their proper name". I'm falling asleep.

Chris

I'm not all that sure I need a giant machine. Area of .250 round is .049
sq. in..
..042 x 1.25 bandsaw area is .0525 sq.in.. So would a machine that would
weld a
..042 x 1.25 bandsaw blade be suitable to weld two 1/4" steel rods together?
That, I believe, was my original question, and so far no one has said yes,
no, or maybe.

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
oups.com...
That was what I assumed the reason would be, but 20,000 is a hell of a
lot of rods to join! Ask around and you might find a machine which
doesn't need modifying. I've seen machines designed to butt weld metal
strips, rather like a giant band saw blade welder. I think they called
them "rim welders", but only because they were on a wheel production
line. I don't know there proper name.

Chris.

A good brutal 2-(or 3 or 4)-point partial-punch/stake might be up to
the task.
If a press is avail. making up a fixture and a die should be do-able.

Or maybe sleeve + spotwelding would turn the trick?

-Dave

I'm not sure if it will work or not. Theoretically you should have
enough current, but whether it'll make a strong enough joint I don't
know. If you see a blade welder for sale, take along a couple of your
rods and try before you buy.

Good luck!

Chris

On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 23:07:21 GMT, "Bill Marrs"
wrote:

I'm not all that sure I need a giant machine. Area of .250 round is .049
sq. in..
.042 x 1.25 bandsaw area is .0525 sq.in.. So would a machine that would
weld a
.042 x 1.25 bandsaw blade be suitable to weld two 1/4" steel rods together?
That, I believe, was my original question, and so far no one has said yes,
no, or maybe.

I don't know from experience, but it certainly sounds reasonable. A
blade welder heats by resistance and then pushes the hot metal parts
together, making an "upset" weld. It's more like forgewelding; you
never create a puddle. It might take more force to upset rods than
thin strip -- but then again maybe not if the areas are similar. It
would certainly require a different fixture, but it'd be simple
enough to make. I don't know if having a greater distance from
center to periphery would make a difference in an upset weld.

I can also imagine a fixture using a TIG welder. It would hold the
electrode over the joint in the fixture. When the "go" button is
pressed it initiates the arc and rotates the work 1 turn, making an
autogenous weld -- no filler. When it has rotated one turn the arc
stops and it "unwinds" so the cables don't get wound up. I've seen
stainless valve bodies welded this way in a valve factory. The
operator would place the parts in the fixture, close a door that had a
filter window, and push a button to initate the process. When it
finished (about 5 seconds) she'd open the door, remove the part, put
it in a finished goods tray and reload. The welds were nearly
invisible. She could weld up a lot of valve bodies in a day.

Bill,

A modified band saw blade welder is the way to go, and it doesn't have
to be a BIG industrial unit.

A small spot welder appropriately modified would also work.

I built a machine to weld small tubes and extensions to drills, but if
you can get one of the above described units cheap that would be the
way to go.

The method is fast and cheap (remember those OLD telephone
commercials?)

My welder was described in Home Shop Machinist issue of March/April
1996, pgs 48 & 49. Also in Projects in Metal Seven.

Trust this helps.

Wolfgang

On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 21:57:44 GMT, "Bill Marrs"
wrote:

Good thought, but they do need to be removed. They are used for support on
bare root
nursery stock, and get pushed in/pulled out at least once a year. Corrosion
resistance is
"not much". After you use them once the ground end is pretty much rusted.

wrote in message
roups.com...
If they only get driven in, but not taken out you could place a sleeve
over the joint and crimp/compress/stake.

What does the corrosion resistance need to be?

-Dave


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Hey Bill,

Not to be too critical, but if you have to ask, you probably are not
the right guy to do the job. And clarify before you go ahead, whether
they have 20,000 4 foot piece to make into 10,000 8 footers, or 40,000
to make 20,000.

The big money and harder job here will be to get them a machine to
"plant these". Go get an eight footer of 1/4" rod and just TRY to
drive that in the ground economically!!. It will take something
special to do it, maybe a vibrator of sorts, along the lines of a
palm-nailer??

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

And you assume they will be driven in how far? Already been down the "palm
nailer" route.
The crew won't use it. The preferred installation method is the "two handed
grab and push"
That technology exists--we probably use a over a hundred thousand of these
things a year.
Don't know the exact figure--I do the machining/fabrication/R&D stuff, I'm
not directly involved in nursery operations.
You have any suggestions as to how to butt join two 4 ft rods economically,
quickly, using
un-skilled labor? I'm still leaning toward a suitably modified bandsaw
blade welder.


"Brian Lawson" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 21:57:44 GMT, "Bill Marrs"
wrote:

The big money and harder job here will be to get them a machine to
"plant these". Go get an eight footer of 1/4" rod and just TRY to
drive that in the ground economically!!. It will take something
special to do it, maybe a vibrator of sorts, along the lines of a
palm-nailer??

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

"Not to be too critical, but if you have to ask, you probably are not
the right guy to do the job."

I don't understand this cliche. It comes up quite frequently here. In
my opinion it is quite possible to be competent and ask other people
for ideas. Every learns, and keeps learning...

Just my view...

Chris

On 8 Feb 2006 07:07:21 -0800, "Christopher Tidy"
wrote:

"Not to be too critical, but if you have to ask, you probably are not
the right guy to do the job."

I don't understand this cliche. It comes up quite frequently here. In
my opinion it is quite possible to be competent and ask other people
for ideas. Every learns, and keeps learning...

Just my view...

Chris
Greetings Chris,
I make my living as a machinist. And metalworking in general. When I
don't know something I ask and learn. Looking at the work that many
hobbiest metalworkers do confirms the theory that if you want to learn
to do something you can. And can do it well. Folks in basements with
old machines making scaled down radial engines that they then put on
their home built plane and fly. You are most correct in your above
statements. And people who don't know should be encouraged to learn,
not told that since they don't know they shouldn't even try. I am
constantly amazed with the work that hobbiests do. Not just pretty,
but precise and to the print.
ERS

Maybe this is too obvious, but before I'd do anything, I'd ask what they
are willing to pay, at least in some general terms.
Like this: "Would a dollar apiece be too much? Is that even
close? If that's out of your ballpark, in what general area ARE you
thinking?"

If you charge $30.00 per hour, (plenty cheap) you'd have to charge 50
cents apiece and get 60 per hour out the door. That would probably
include your labor to transport them, , make fixtures,etc. And that
would take 167 hours (20,000/2, if the number of welds is only 1/2 of
the 20,000). Then, the total bill would be $5000.
Are you and they up for that?

I'd make a fixture from 2 pieces of angle iron with an inch between
them. Place one rod in each so they almost touch. Make spring
hold-downs. Zap the top of the joint with a meduim size Mig. Turn the
parts 180 degrees and zap the other side. Prepare a swage that is a
tiny bit oversize for joined assembly. Stick the still-red-hot joint in
the swage and hit it. Finished joint may look a little fat, but mostly
round.

I liked your spinning Idea. I used to do that to make drill bits
longer. Used my Atlas 10 inch lathe at its highest speed. You'd need
some way to apply lots of pressure, like a hollow tailstock. From my
simple experience, the bond is the best at the outside of the joint,
where the speed and friction are highest. This outside would be the
first place for the shaft to rust away. You'd want power chucking,
too. And you'd need clean those welds up some usnless you got real good
at it. Even then, I think you'd have too much time in it.

What kind of warranty will you have to provide? They wouldn' be very
happy if the stakes all came apart next spring.


Pete Stanaitis
---------------------------------

Bill Marrs wrote:
The project: Joining two .250 steel rods. Butt joint. The rods are approx
48" in length,
and appear to be a mild or very low carbon steel, with a thin coating
similar to galvanize.
Need a good solid joint. They drive these things into the ground to support
plants.

First thought was to spin them, but I can't get enough RPM/pressure to even
come close
with anything I have available.

Current thought is to maybe modify a bandsaw welder to do the job. Cross
section of the rod
is .049 sq. in., so it is in the ballpark with a 1" bandsaw blade. Would it
work? The joint
needs to be somewhat smooth, but not perfect. If it would work, any
suggestions as to where to source a welder relatively cheap?

Any other great ideas? I've been told that there are 20,000 of these to
do!

Thanks,

Bill

According to Bill Marrs :

[ ... ]

You have any suggestions as to how to butt join two 4 ft rods economically,
quickly, using
un-skilled labor? I'm still leaning toward a suitably modified bandsaw
blade welder.

Hmm ... friction welding?

It would take a drill press with a long column and a big hole in
the ground under it.

Mount a vise sideways to hold the lower rod, with just a bit
sticking up.

Mount the other half in the drill press chuck, with some guides
to keep it from whipping.

Run it at the highest speed, and bring the rotating end of the
upper rod into contact with the stationary (vise-held) lower rod, and
apply as much force as you can without stalling the drill press. Watch
the contact areas, and when they start glowing red, switch off the motor
while keeping the pressure on the end. Give it a little time to cool
before you pull it out and go to the next.

I have no idea how good a job it will do, but it is an
alternative way. I've read about this, but not yet tried it.

I think that your "unskilled labor" will enjoy making things
this hot.

If you've got a catwalk above the normal work floor, you could
mount the drill press up there, over a 1" diameter hole, and drop the
finished rods on down.

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

A band saw blade/resistance type of welder should work well for this
type of application. When I worked at a wire mill, the large coils of
wire were nearly the .250" diameter of the steel rods mentioned for
this project, and it was routinely butt welded in this same manner.
I believe band saw blades are reheated after the weld to anneal the
joint, but that probably isn't going to be a requirement for the rods
in this application.

The weld produces some upset flash at the joint, which is sharp, and
would need to be ground off to avoid cutting the workers that handle
the rods.. and will also make bundling the rods more convenient. At the
wire mill, this was accomplished with a small 3" coarse grinding wheel
mounted to a common 1725 RPM motor that was operated with a foot
switch.
The welded wire would be strong enough to be drawn thru dies to reduce
the diameter, so the welded joint was definitely strong.

It seems that the intended project could be complicated by the
condition of the ends of the rods you'll be working with. Most of the
zinc plated steel rods that I've seen, have been sheared to length.
This distorts the ends, and the ends might need to be squared up, and
should also have clean steel (not plated) surfaces at the cross section
surfaces.. the zinc on the outer surface probably won't matter, except
that the fumes should be avoided.

This welding method is severe duty for a transformer, and attempting to
expect repeated use, as in set/weld/remove/repeat, will very likely
result in an overheated transformer if the process is performed as a
production process. A very heavy duty welder would probably provide a
reasonable number of welds per hour, and provisions for cooling and
temperature limit would be worthwhile considerations.

A fixture to rotate the rods and grind the flash wouldn't be too
complicated to fabricate. Shields to protect the operator would be of
greatest importance. Confinement of sparks might be another worthwhile
consideration.

WB
.................

Bill Marrs wrote:
The project: Joining two .250 steel rods. Butt joint. The rods are approx
48" in length,
and appear to be a mild or very low carbon steel, with a thin coating
similar to galvanize.
Need a good solid joint. They drive these things into the ground to support
plants.

First thought was to spin them, but I can't get enough RPM/pressure to even
come close
with anything I have available.

Current thought is to maybe modify a bandsaw welder to do the job. Cross
section of the rod
is .049 sq. in., so it is in the ballpark with a 1" bandsaw blade. Would it
work? The joint
needs to be somewhat smooth, but not perfect. If it would work, any
suggestions as to where to source a welder relatively cheap?

Any other great ideas? I've been told that there are 20,000 of these to
do!

Thanks,

Bill