Hi All,
OK, I've read enough of Harold's posts that I have decided it is time
to upgrade my grinding capabilities. I presently have a fairly old and
not super great tiawaneese 6" bench grinder with the original crappy
wheels. I would like to at least make this passable for general use
until I get my KO Lee T&C grinder together. Even then, I still need a
bench grinder, for , well, bench grinder stuff, you all know. So to that
end, I am planning to make some good flanges, replace both of the
wheels, banish my (Harold, close your eyes till this next line
passes...)star wheel dresser, and get a diamond dresser.

(Harold can open is eyes now) I was perusing a few catalogs looking at
single point hand diamond dressers. At least I think that is what I
want.Please correct me if I am wrong. Anyhow I was looking at ones
similar to this:

http://www.wttool.com/c/53600050p

The thing I noticed, was that these come in various carat sizes, 1/4,
1/2,3/4,1, etc. Why is that? What would determine which one I would want
or need?

Second question is, for general shop stuff, HSS tool grinding,
tweaking the ends of screwdrivers, etc., what is a decent compromise for
wheels? I am not snagging castings or grinding welds and such. I have to
admit to being a bit confused by the bewildering number of choices of
grits, compositions and bonds. I understand that there is a "tool" for
every job, but a bit of general guidance would make me feel a bit less dumb.

Thanks for any insight.

-AL A.

Al A. wrote:

Hi All,
OK, I've read enough of Harold's posts that I have decided it is time
to upgrade my grinding capabilities. I presently have a fairly old and
not super great tiawaneese 6" bench grinder with the original crappy
wheels. I would like to at least make this passable for general use
until I get my KO Lee T&C grinder together. Even then, I still need a
bench grinder, for , well, bench grinder stuff, you all know. So to that
end, I am planning to make some good flanges, replace both of the
wheels, banish my (Harold, close your eyes till this next line
passes...)star wheel dresser, and get a diamond dresser.

(Harold can open is eyes now) I was perusing a few catalogs looking at
single point hand diamond dressers. At least I think that is what I
want.Please correct me if I am wrong. Anyhow I was looking at ones
similar to this:

http://www.wttool.com/c/53600050p

The thing I noticed, was that these come in various carat sizes, 1/4,
1/2,3/4,1, etc. Why is that? What would determine which one I would want
or need?

Second question is, for general shop stuff, HSS tool grinding, tweaking
the ends of screwdrivers, etc., what is a decent compromise for wheels?
I am not snagging castings or grinding welds and such. I have to admit
to being a bit confused by the bewildering number of choices of grits,
compositions and bonds. I understand that there is a "tool" for every
job, but a bit of general guidance would make me feel a bit less dumb.

You might design your wheel flanges so they incorporate a thick (1/4") washer
drilled all around the edge with holes, and a secondary washer which half covers
the holes. That way you can put weights in the holes to balance the
armature/shaft/wheel assembly.

I also have heard Harold's views on star dressers, but they do a great job of
deglazing bench grinder wheels. I don't know about handheld diamond dressers,
what's the point? Why not just get a Norbide dressing stone and be done with it?
They cost like $5 and if you wear one out in a lifetime I'd be amazed.

The thing about grinding wheels is: for harder materials use softer wheels, for
softer materials use harder wheels; keep your wheel balanced, trued and dressed,
and understand the metallurgy behind grinding and heat treating. I tend to buy
wheels that do a good job on HSS, and live with the results on softer materials.

GWE

Don't throw away your star dresser. I have a couple of diamond
dressers and a couple of star dressers. The star dressers get used
more often than the diamond ones. The diamond ones are great for
trueing up a wheel, but dull the wheel. The star dressers open up the
grain so the wheel cuts faster and cooler, but are not so great for
trueing.

I like a 36 for coarse and a 80 or 100 for fine. Plus a wire brush
sometimes.

Dan

Grant Erwin wrote:
SNIP

You might design your wheel flanges so they incorporate a thick (1/4")
washer drilled all around the edge with holes, and a secondary washer
which half covers the holes. That way you can put weights in the holes
to balance the armature/shaft/wheel assembly.

I also have heard Harold's views on star dressers, but they do a great
job of deglazing bench grinder wheels. I don't know about handheld
diamond dressers, what's the point? Why not just get a Norbide dressing
stone and be done with it? They cost like $5 and if you wear one out in
a lifetime I'd be amazed.

The thing about grinding wheels is: for harder materials use softer
wheels, for softer materials use harder wheels; keep your wheel
balanced, trued and dressed, and understand the metallurgy behind
grinding and heat treating. I tend to buy wheels that do a good job on
HSS, and live with the results on softer materials.

GWE

Grant,
thanks for the reply. I like the idea for the flanges, I will
incorperate something like that.

I am only kidding about banishing my star dresser, I'll just put it
*way, way* over there where Harold won't see it and yell at me. (Just
kidding Mr. V.!) As to what is the point of a diamond hand dresser, I
don't really know, that is why I asked. I have just seen lots of mention
of their use, and asumed that that was the "proper" tool for the job.
Actually I do have Nobride (or something equivelent) stone. Is that
essentially the same thing, or used in the same ways?

Thanks again,
AL A.

I have seen star dressers in the store,but how do they work in opening
up the surface of the wheels?

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
snip----

I also have heard Harold's views on star dressers, but they do a great job
of
deglazing bench grinder wheels.

That's never been disputed. Not by me. My point is that star dressers are
quite wasteful of a wheel, particularly as the dresser shows signs of wear
and "chatters" as it dresses the wheel. For offhand grinding, there is
no better wheel surface, but when you grind toolbits by the method I use, a
star dressed wheel is worthless. It's difficult to get the wheel to run
smooth
enough, whereas the use of a diamond to true the wheel brings it in almost
instantly, and a dressing stick to break the fine surface yields a wheel
that will grind nearly as well as a wheel prepared with a star dresser.
That makes the use of a star dresser not worth the trouble. By contrast, if
you're using your grinding wheels for rough grinding, a star dresser is the
ultimate.

I don't know about handheld diamond dressers,
what's the point? Why not just get a Norbide dressing stone and be done
with it?
They cost like $5 and if you wear one out in a lifetime I'd be amazed.

Bad advice. For starters, a Norbide costs around $30, not $5. You're far
better served to buy a small mounted diamond, which is far more aggressive
towards grinding wheels and easier to apply. Unlike the typical silicon
carbide dressing stick that is 1" square and 6" long, the Norbide dressing
sticks are made of boron carbide, solid, typically 3/16" x 7/16" x 3" long,
and are not made of small bits that are bonded. Because of that feature,
they don't perform well. Bonded silicon carbide sticks keep sloughing off
the dull grain, presenting new, sharp cornered grains to the wheel, so they
do a better job of dressing. As you use the Norbide, it slowly wears until
it is well polished and lacks a sharp edge that is mandatory to get a sharp
wheel. The polished surface that results tends to dull the abrasive grains
of a wheel instead of cut or otherwise dislodge them, so the wheel doesn't
perform well. You'd be far better served to stick with a star dresser in
that case.

Harold

"Time Traveler" wrote in message
...
I have seen star dressers in the store,but how do they work in opening
up the surface of the wheels?


Star dressers are an impact tool that crush the surface of the wheel. As
the "spurs" rotate, they're hammered against the wheel, sloughing off the
surface. They should not be idles, otherwise the wheel grinds away the
spur.

Harold

"Al A." wrote in message
...
snip--

The thing I noticed, was that these come in various carat sizes, 1/4,
1/2,3/4,1, etc. Why is that? What would determine which one I would want
or need?

The only difference is the size of the diamond. If you use the dressing
tool regularly, the larger, the better, for it will last longer. There's
a small problem with using such a dressing tool by hand, however. You'll
find that you'll wear the end to a rounded surface, which lessens the
diamond's ability to cut. Won't happen fast, but it happens. On a
machine, the diamond is generally held in a fixed position, and presented to
the wheel at an angle of sorts. As the diamond wears and dulls, all that
is necessary to present a sharp edge to the wheel is to rotate the diamond
slightly. The edge of the flat surface created by repetitive use of the
diamond in a fixed position is the sharp edge needed for efficient cutting
of the wheel.

Armed with the above, you might be better served to buy the 1/4 carat tool
and replace it (in several years) when it's not performing to your
satisfaction. Be sure you read what I had to say about dressing sticks,
so you end up with the right one for your needs.

Second question is, for general shop stuff, HSS tool grinding,
tweaking the ends of screwdrivers, etc., what is a decent compromise for
wheels? I am not snagging castings or grinding welds and such. I have to
admit to being a bit confused by the bewildering number of choices of
grits, compositions and bonds. I understand that there is a "tool" for
every job, but a bit of general guidance would make me feel a bit less
dumb.

Thanks for any insight.

-AL A.

You would be well served by a wheel that was either 46 or 60 grit, aluminum
oxide, maybe an H or I hardness, vitrified bond. You'd be surprised that it
will handle all your grinding needs as long as you're not grinding soft
materials, and would do a good job on HSS.

Harold

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:



The only difference is the size of the diamond. If you use the dressing
tool regularly, the larger, the better, for it will last longer. There's
a small problem with using such a dressing tool by hand, however. You'll
find that you'll wear the end to a rounded surface, which lessens the
diamond's ability to cut. Won't happen fast, but it happens. On a
machine, the diamond is generally held in a fixed position, and presented to
the wheel at an angle of sorts. As the diamond wears and dulls, all that
is necessary to present a sharp edge to the wheel is to rotate the diamond
slightly. The edge of the flat surface created by repetitive use of the
diamond in a fixed position is the sharp edge needed for efficient cutting
of the wheel.

Armed with the above, you might be better served to buy the 1/4 carat tool
and replace it (in several years) when it's not performing to your
satisfaction. Be sure you read what I had to say about dressing sticks,
so you end up with the right one for your needs.

You would be well served by a wheel that was either 46 or 60 grit, aluminum
oxide, maybe an H or I hardness, vitrified bond. You'd be surprised that it
will handle all your grinding needs as long as you're not grinding soft
materials, and would do a good job on HSS.

Harold



Thanks, Harold. I was just not sure if there was any compelling reason
to go with a larger and more costly diamond dresser. They are not all
that costly and at the rate that I use this, even a 1/4 carat one will
likely last me a very, very long time.

After reading your description, I took a look at exactly what a
"Nobride" dressing stick is, and found that is not what I have. What I
have appears to be the silicon carbide type you describe, about 1"
square, 5" long, and looks sort of like a chunk of course grinding
wheel. Can I take it from what you wrote that that is somewhat
equivelent to the star dresser, though less aggressive?

There is a decent industrial supplier nearby. I may go by and check
out what they have in grinding wheels of the sort you describe. When you
say that such a wheel will serve for most applications so long as I am
not grinding "soft materials", how soft do you mean? Do you mean steels
softer than HSS, or do you mean stuff like brass, aluminium or maybe a
piece of lamb? Sorry if that seems a dumb question, but I am really
trying to understand how this all works.

Thanks for the info.

-AL A.

wrote:
Don't throw away your star dresser. I have a couple of diamond
dressers and a couple of star dressers. The star dressers get used
more often than the diamond ones. The diamond ones are great for
trueing up a wheel, but dull the wheel. The star dressers open up the
grain so the wheel cuts faster and cooler, but are not so great for
trueing.

I like a 36 for coarse and a 80 or 100 for fine. Plus a wire brush
sometimes.

Dan



Thanks, Dan. Like I said, I was just kidding about banishing my star
dresser. I will eventually put 2 wheels on this grinder, i have a
second one with the wire wheel on one side and a taper spindle on the
other for buffing wheels and such. Very handy.

Thnaks again.

AL A.

I stand corrected, I didn't mean Norbide. I'm actually in agreement with Harold,
I just remembered the wrong trade name. Sorry for the confusion. - GWE

Al A. wrote:

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:



The only difference is the size of the diamond. If you use the dressing
tool regularly, the larger, the better, for it will last longer.
There's
a small problem with using such a dressing tool by hand, however.
You'll
find that you'll wear the end to a rounded surface, which lessens the
diamond's ability to cut. Won't happen fast, but it happens. On a
machine, the diamond is generally held in a fixed position, and
presented to
the wheel at an angle of sorts. As the diamond wears and dulls, all
that
is necessary to present a sharp edge to the wheel is to rotate the
diamond
slightly. The edge of the flat surface created by repetitive use of the
diamond in a fixed position is the sharp edge needed for efficient
cutting
of the wheel.

Armed with the above, you might be better served to buy the 1/4 carat
tool
and replace it (in several years) when it's not performing to your
satisfaction. Be sure you read what I had to say about dressing
sticks,
so you end up with the right one for your needs.



You would be well served by a wheel that was either 46 or 60 grit,
aluminum
oxide, maybe an H or I hardness, vitrified bond. You'd be surprised
that it
will handle all your grinding needs as long as you're not grinding soft
materials, and would do a good job on HSS.

Harold



Thanks, Harold. I was just not sure if there was any compelling reason
to go with a larger and more costly diamond dresser. They are not all
that costly and at the rate that I use this, even a 1/4 carat one will
likely last me a very, very long time.

After reading your description, I took a look at exactly what a
"Nobride" dressing stick is, and found that is not what I have. What I
have appears to be the silicon carbide type you describe, about 1"
square, 5" long, and looks sort of like a chunk of course grinding
wheel. Can I take it from what you wrote that that is somewhat
equivelent to the star dresser, though less aggressive?

There is a decent industrial supplier nearby. I may go by and check out
what they have in grinding wheels of the sort you describe. When you
say that such a wheel will serve for most applications so long as I am
not grinding "soft materials", how soft do you mean? Do you mean steels
softer than HSS, or do you mean stuff like brass, aluminium or maybe a
piece of lamb? Sorry if that seems a dumb question, but I am really
trying to understand how this all works.

Thanks for the info.

-AL A.

Here is an alternative to the single point wheel dressers. I have
one that I bought at one of our local HF type stores for $9.00. I
have been pleased.:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004Y9FA/103-4198189-2043828?SubscriptionId=04HSKH6V3FDXFHVN1F82Content-type%3A%20text&n=228013

(top posted for your convenience)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"Al A." wrote in message
...
Hi All,
OK, I've read enough of Harold's posts that I have decided it
is time to upgrade my grinding capabilities. I presently have a
fairly old and not super great tiawaneese 6" bench grinder with
the original crappy wheels. I would like to at least make this
passable for general use until I get my KO Lee T&C grinder
together. Even then, I still need a bench grinder, for , well,
bench grinder stuff, you all know. So to that end, I am planning
to make some good flanges, replace both of the wheels, banish my
(Harold, close your eyes till this next line passes...)star
wheel dresser, and get a diamond dresser.

(Harold can open is eyes now) I was perusing a few catalogs
looking at single point hand diamond dressers. At least I think
that is what I want.Please correct me if I am wrong. Anyhow I
was looking at ones similar to this:

http://www.wttool.com/c/53600050p

The thing I noticed, was that these come in various carat
sizes, 1/4, 1/2,3/4,1, etc. Why is that? What would determine
which one I would want or need?

Second question is, for general shop stuff, HSS tool grinding,
tweaking the ends of screwdrivers, etc., what is a decent
compromise for wheels? I am not snagging castings or grinding
welds and such. I have to admit to being a bit confused by the
bewildering number of choices of grits, compositions and bonds.
I understand that there is a "tool" for every job, but a bit of
general guidance would make me feel a bit less dumb.

Thanks for any insight.

-AL A.

One issue with that wide tool is the energy or psi on it.

Looks like a massive tool holder is needed. I don't think a hand
can hold steady with that - Not even with a point source.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



DanG wrote:
Here is an alternative to the single point wheel dressers. I have
one that I bought at one of our local HF type stores for $9.00. I
have been pleased.:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004Y9FA/103-4198189-2043828?SubscriptionId=04HSKH6V3FDXFHVN1F82Content-type%3A%20text&n=228013

(top posted for your convenience)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"Al A." wrote in message
...

Hi All,
OK, I've read enough of Harold's posts that I have decided it
is time to upgrade my grinding capabilities. I presently have a
fairly old and not super great tiawaneese 6" bench grinder with
the original crappy wheels. I would like to at least make this
passable for general use until I get my KO Lee T&C grinder
together. Even then, I still need a bench grinder, for , well,
bench grinder stuff, you all know. So to that end, I am planning
to make some good flanges, replace both of the wheels, banish my
(Harold, close your eyes till this next line passes...)star
wheel dresser, and get a diamond dresser.

(Harold can open is eyes now) I was perusing a few catalogs
looking at single point hand diamond dressers. At least I think
that is what I want.Please correct me if I am wrong. Anyhow I
was looking at ones similar to this:

http://www.wttool.com/c/53600050p

The thing I noticed, was that these come in various carat
sizes, 1/4, 1/2,3/4,1, etc. Why is that? What would determine
which one I would want or need?

Second question is, for general shop stuff, HSS tool grinding,
tweaking the ends of screwdrivers, etc., what is a decent
compromise for wheels? I am not snagging castings or grinding
welds and such. I have to admit to being a bit confused by the
bewildering number of choices of grits, compositions and bonds.
I understand that there is a "tool" for every job, but a bit of
general guidance would make me feel a bit less dumb.

Thanks for any insight.

-AL A.




----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"Al A." wrote in message
...
snip----

After reading your description, I took a look at exactly what a
"Nobride" dressing stick is, and found that is not what I have. What I
have appears to be the silicon carbide type you describe, about 1"
square, 5" long, and looks sort of like a chunk of course grinding
wheel. Can I take it from what you wrote that that is somewhat
equivelent to the star dresser, though less aggressive?

Actually, they're more like a diamond. The only dressing tool that works by
impact is the star type, and that's the most desirable surface you can
prepare.

The dressing stick you described is exactly what you want--but it works by
cutting the wheel, although the hardness difference isn't as great as it
would be with diamond, which goes without saying. Silicon carbide is far
and away harder than aluminum oxide, so it easily cuts the aluminum wheel,
although you get a combination of cutting and tearing of the abrasive due to
rupturing the bond. The bond of the wheel isn't nearly as hard as the
abrasive, so the majority of the dressing occurs by that process.

Due to the fact that the dressing stick is made up of small pieces, you
don't get large, polished areas that won't cut (like a Norbide is inclined
to do), although the slightly polished small grains do tend to dull the
wheel somewhat. You can avoid that by seeking sharp edges of the stick when
necessary.

There's no doubt about it, a star dresser has the advantage as far as the
surface of the wheel is concerned, but you have to balance the slightly
reduced cutting ability of the wheel dressed with a stick against the
difficulty of preparing a dead true running wheel with a star type dresser.
As I stated earlier, for me, it's a no brainer. You can make a wheel run
dead true with almost no effort with a dressing stick, especially if you
have a rest upon which you can place it while you're dressing. That prevents
the stick from bouncing with the wheel.

In spite of the fact that I don't use a rest, I can still true a wheel by
picking a corner of the stick and not press-----allow the wheel to remove
itself until it's running a full circle before bearing down on the stick, if
necessary. It takes a little practice, but it's no big deal to master.


There is a decent industrial supplier nearby. I may go by and check
out what they have in grinding wheels of the sort you describe. When you
say that such a wheel will serve for most applications so long as I am
not grinding "soft materials", how soft do you mean? Do you mean steels
softer than HSS, or do you mean stuff like brass, aluminium or maybe a
piece of lamb? Sorry if that seems a dumb question, but I am really
trying to understand how this all works.

Thanks for the info.

-AL A.


There's no dumb questions, Al, only dumb answers. By soft, I mean steel
items, but not cast iron. Mild steel, for example, is too soft to be ground
successfully on a wheel that is intended for HSS. You'd want to step up
in hardness, to an M or even higher for such an application.

The key here is to have on hand the type of abrasive that's suited to the
material. Steels of all kinds (not stainless) should be ground with
aluminum oxide (silicon carbide is soluble in steel at high speeds, much the
same way diamond is. That's why one never chooses silicon carbide for
grinding steel). All other materials, including cast iron and stainless,
should be ground with silicon carbide. That includes aluminum and brass.
The green silicon carbide wheels are generally used exclusively for grinding
carbide (in the machine shop----I think guys that grind rock use them for
that purpose). Anything else should be ground with black silicon carbide
wheels. Reason? Carbide is so hard that it dulls the abrasive
quickly. In order for the wheel to cut successfully, it must shed the dull
grain rapidly. For that reason, the wheel is bonded quite softly, to
promote breakdown. With that in mind, you can easily understand that the
wheel would be way too soft for grinding other substances. The black
wheels are bonded much harder, but, again, you must balance the hardness of
a job with the wheel. Just like aluminum oxide wheels come in grades
(J-K-L, etc.), the silicon wheels do as well. The designation of hardness
has nothing to do with the abrasive, but everything to do with the strength
of the bond. Soft wheels are no softer than hard wheels, but they are more
friable because the bond is weaker. That's what the meaning is of a hard
or soft wheel.

Hope this helps.

Harold

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
One issue with that wide tool is the energy or psi on it.

Looks like a massive tool holder is needed. I don't think a hand
can hold steady with that - Not even with a point source.

Martin

If you have a steady hand, it works fine on wheels, even free hand. That's
a cluster diamond, and cuts quite well. It makes getting a flat wheel much
easier, and actually dresses much better than does a single point diamond
because the small pieces of diamond can't get polished to a ball. Diamond
is so much harder than a wheel that it cuts the typical grinding wheel with
ease, as long as it's presented to the wheel with a sharp edge. Clusters
do just that.

Harold

Bad advice. For starters, a Norbide costs around $30, not $5. You're
far
better served to buy a small mounted diamond, which is far more aggressive
towards grinding wheels and easier to apply. Unlike the typical silicon
carbide dressing stick that is 1" square and 6" long, the Norbide
dressing
sticks are made of boron carbide, solid, typically 3/16" x 7/16" x 3"
long,
and are not made of small bits that are bonded. Because of that feature,
they don't perform well. Bonded silicon carbide sticks keep sloughing off
the dull grain, presenting new, sharp cornered grains to the wheel, so
they
do a better job of dressing. As you use the Norbide, it slowly wears
until
it is well polished and lacks a sharp edge that is mandatory to get a
sharp
wheel. The polished surface that results tends to dull the abrasive
grains
of a wheel instead of cut or otherwise dislodge them, so the wheel doesn't
perform well. You'd be far better served to stick with a star dresser in
that case.

Harold



We've used a norbide stick for years to rough dress the sides of our wheels,
or roughing a large radius when doing form grinding. It is much faster than
using a diamond. We hold the stick by hand for roughing only. When the wheel
is close, we use a wheel dresser with a diamond to finish the job.

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:e6uzf.740981$xm3.631446@attbi_s21...

Bad advice. For starters, a Norbide costs around $30, not $5. You're
far
better served to buy a small mounted diamond, which is far more
aggressive
towards grinding wheels and easier to apply. Unlike the typical
silicon
carbide dressing stick that is 1" square and 6" long, the Norbide
dressing
sticks are made of boron carbide, solid, typically 3/16" x 7/16" x 3"
long,
and are not made of small bits that are bonded. Because of that
feature,
they don't perform well. Bonded silicon carbide sticks keep sloughing
off
the dull grain, presenting new, sharp cornered grains to the wheel, so
they
do a better job of dressing. As you use the Norbide, it slowly wears
until
it is well polished and lacks a sharp edge that is mandatory to get a
sharp
wheel. The polished surface that results tends to dull the abrasive
grains
of a wheel instead of cut or otherwise dislodge them, so the wheel
doesn't
perform well. You'd be far better served to stick with a star dresser
in
that case.

Harold



We've used a norbide stick for years to rough dress the sides of our
wheels,
or roughing a large radius when doing form grinding. It is much faster
than
using a diamond. We hold the stick by hand for roughing only. When the
wheel
is close, we use a wheel dresser with a diamond to finish the job.



While I'd question a Norbide being faster than a diamond (I've used both of
them extensively---Norbide, *unless very sharp*, does not move the wheel as
fast as diamond does, nor should it. It's not as hard as diamond).

The point at hand is that *for offhand grinding*, Norbide prepared wheels
are pretty much worthless----particularly when the stick isn't sharp. By
the time you have the wheel running smoothly, it cuts hot and resists the
work at hand, due to the polished condition of the wheel. IN essence,
you've dulled the wheel in the process of preparing it for work. A diamond
dressed wheel is quite valueless for hand grinding as well, due to the
smooth surface. In order for a wheel to cut freely (for hand grinding),
it should be prepared by fracturing, which a star dresser does very well,
and a sintered dressing stick does fairly well. Don't steer theses guys
down the wrong path with the notion that a Norbide is the best choice. It's
not.

Remember, we're not talking about machine grinding here, where diamond
dressed wheels are a requirement.

Harold

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:



There's no dumb questions, Al, only dumb answers. By soft, I mean steel
items, but not cast iron. Mild steel, for example, is too soft to be ground
successfully on a wheel that is intended for HSS. You'd want to step up
in hardness, to an M or even higher for such an application.

The key here is to have on hand the type of abrasive that's suited to the

SNIP bunch-o-good stuff

Hope this helps.

Harold



Thanks very much to Harold, and all you guys who replied. All most
informative and helpful info, and just the sort of guidance I was hoping
for. I have cliped and saved all of this for future reference. When I
get my grinder flanges made up and get a couple of new wheels, as I
tweak everything in, I will no doubt have some more questions.


I really appreciate all of the help.

AL A.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:23:16 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Al A." wrote in message
...
snip----

After reading your description, I took a look at exactly what a
"Nobride" dressing stick is, and found that is not what I have. What I
have appears to be the silicon carbide type you describe, about 1"
square, 5" long, and looks sort of like a chunk of course grinding
wheel. Can I take it from what you wrote that that is somewhat
equivelent to the star dresser, though less aggressive?

Actually, they're more like a diamond. The only dressing tool that works by
impact is the star type, and that's the most desirable surface you can
prepare.


I think we've had this discussion before but I thought I'd put a
word in on the best dresser I've ever used for a wheel being used to
grind tools offhand. The one I used was made by KO Lee and for a while
MSC didn't have anything similar. But it appears that they now handle
one just like it made by Desmond. You can see it here.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT...PMT4NO=4050604

I've never used anything that will leave as sharp a wheel but still
be a smooth and true as one of these and I've used diamond, silicon
carbide dressing sticks, diamond clusters, and star wheel dressers.
The one my former employer had was a single handle and for just
sharpening the wheel you don't have to hold it at the angle
recommended for full dressing. It will leave a smooth no run out
smooth faced wheel that will still cut as good or better than the star
dressers. Yes the wheel in the dresser needs to be replaced from time
to time and it's expensive to buy. But I've never found anything that
will leave a surface as good as one of these.

I was going to build one of these because I couldn't buy one but
never had the time to. I just noticed them back in the MSC catalog a
few months back when talking to a friend about grinding wheel
dressers. It's going on the next MSC order I make (if I have the spare
money for it).

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

Wayne Cook wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:23:16 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Al A." wrote in message
...
snip----


I think we've had this discussion before but I thought I'd put a
word in on the best dresser I've ever used for a wheel being used to
grind tools offhand. The one I used was made by KO Lee and for a while
MSC didn't have anything similar. But it appears that they now handle
one just like it made by Desmond. You can see it here.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT...PMT4NO=4050604

I've never used anything that will leave as sharp a wheel but still
be a smooth and true as one of these and I've used diamond, silicon
snip

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

Wayne,
Is that a grinding wheel in the dresser? Don't they use something like
that to dress wheels on surface grinders and such?

Al A.

"Wayne Cook" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:23:16 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Al A." wrote in message
...
snip----

After reading your description, I took a look at exactly what a
"Nobride" dressing stick is, and found that is not what I have. What I
have appears to be the silicon carbide type you describe, about 1"
square, 5" long, and looks sort of like a chunk of course grinding
wheel. Can I take it from what you wrote that that is somewhat
equivelent to the star dresser, though less aggressive?

Actually, they're more like a diamond. The only dressing tool that works
by
impact is the star type, and that's the most desirable surface you can
prepare.


I think we've had this discussion before but I thought I'd put a
word in on the best dresser I've ever used for a wheel being used to
grind tools offhand. The one I used was made by KO Lee and for a while
MSC didn't have anything similar. But it appears that they now handle
one just like it made by Desmond. You can see it here.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT...PMT4NO=4050604

I've never used anything that will leave as sharp a wheel but still
be a smooth and true as one of these and I've used diamond, silicon
carbide dressing sticks, diamond clusters, and star wheel dressers.
The one my former employer had was a single handle and for just
sharpening the wheel you don't have to hold it at the angle
recommended for full dressing. It will leave a smooth no run out
smooth faced wheel that will still cut as good or better than the star
dressers. Yes the wheel in the dresser needs to be replaced from time
to time and it's expensive to buy. But I've never found anything that
will leave a surface as good as one of these.

I was going to build one of these because I couldn't buy one but
never had the time to. I just noticed them back in the MSC catalog a
few months back when talking to a friend about grinding wheel
dressers. It's going on the next MSC order I make (if I have the spare
money for it).

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX

Very interesting, Wayne. Looks like it's nothing more than a circular
silicon carbide dressing stick, at least from the description. I can see
where it might be a good investment, depending on how much time a guy spends
at his pedestal grinder. Having never seen one, I'd enjoy hearing more
about it if you have the time. Can you verify my hunch?

For those that don't care to invest that amount for dressing your wheels, if
you follow the link Wayne provided, the dressing stick I recommend is to the
left, and slightly below the dresser in question. It's order number
05863014, a real bargain @ $2.55. One will likely last you a life time.
I'm still using what's left of one I acquired back in the 60's. It can be
used alone, no diamond necessary, although the use of a diamond makes
dressing much faster, assuming you have considerable wheel to remove.

Harold

My understanding from another sales book - dxp - it is a friction dresser.
The wheel doesn't turn at the same speed and therefore doesn't keep up with
one configuration.

I don't know - maybe Wayne knows - how fast do they wear out.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Wayne Cook" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:23:16 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Al A." wrote in message
...
snip----


After reading your description, I took a look at exactly what a
"Nobride" dressing stick is, and found that is not what I have. What I
have appears to be the silicon carbide type you describe, about 1"
square, 5" long, and looks sort of like a chunk of course grinding
wheel. Can I take it from what you wrote that that is somewhat
equivelent to the star dresser, though less aggressive?

Actually, they're more like a diamond. The only dressing tool that works

by

impact is the star type, and that's the most desirable surface you can
prepare.


I think we've had this discussion before but I thought I'd put a
word in on the best dresser I've ever used for a wheel being used to
grind tools offhand. The one I used was made by KO Lee and for a while
MSC didn't have anything similar. But it appears that they now handle
one just like it made by Desmond. You can see it here.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT...PMT4NO=4050604

I've never used anything that will leave as sharp a wheel but still
be a smooth and true as one of these and I've used diamond, silicon
carbide dressing sticks, diamond clusters, and star wheel dressers.
The one my former employer had was a single handle and for just
sharpening the wheel you don't have to hold it at the angle
recommended for full dressing. It will leave a smooth no run out
smooth faced wheel that will still cut as good or better than the star
dressers. Yes the wheel in the dresser needs to be replaced from time
to time and it's expensive to buy. But I've never found anything that
will leave a surface as good as one of these.

I was going to build one of these because I couldn't buy one but
never had the time to. I just noticed them back in the MSC catalog a
few months back when talking to a friend about grinding wheel
dressers. It's going on the next MSC order I make (if I have the spare
money for it).

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX


Very interesting, Wayne. Looks like it's nothing more than a circular
silicon carbide dressing stick, at least from the description. I can see
where it might be a good investment, depending on how much time a guy spends
at his pedestal grinder. Having never seen one, I'd enjoy hearing more
about it if you have the time. Can you verify my hunch?

For those that don't care to invest that amount for dressing your wheels, if
you follow the link Wayne provided, the dressing stick I recommend is to the
left, and slightly below the dresser in question. It's order number
05863014, a real bargain @ $2.55. One will likely last you a life time.
I'm still using what's left of one I acquired back in the 60's. It can be
used alone, no diamond necessary, although the use of a diamond makes
dressing much faster, assuming you have considerable wheel to remove.

Harold



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

My point is the force back from the 1" of surface being ground at the same time.
Might not be all that bad the way Harold talks. Thanks - maybe next time.


Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...

One issue with that wide tool is the energy or psi on it.

Looks like a massive tool holder is needed. I don't think a hand
can hold steady with that - Not even with a point source.

Martin


If you have a steady hand, it works fine on wheels, even free hand. That's
a cluster diamond, and cuts quite well. It makes getting a flat wheel much
easier, and actually dresses much better than does a single point diamond
because the small pieces of diamond can't get polished to a ball. Diamond
is so much harder than a wheel that it cuts the typical grinding wheel with
ease, as long as it's presented to the wheel with a sharp edge. Clusters
do just that.

Harold



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:28:06 -0500, "Al A."
wrote:

Wayne Cook wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:23:16 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Al A." wrote in message
...
snip----


I think we've had this discussion before but I thought I'd put a
word in on the best dresser I've ever used for a wheel being used to
grind tools offhand. The one I used was made by KO Lee and for a while
MSC didn't have anything similar. But it appears that they now handle
one just like it made by Desmond. You can see it here.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT...PMT4NO=4050604

I've never used anything that will leave as sharp a wheel but still
be a smooth and true as one of these and I've used diamond, silicon
snip

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

Wayne,
Is that a grinding wheel in the dresser? Don't they use something like
that to dress wheels on surface grinders and such?

I believe they make something similar called a brake controlled
dresser for surface grinders. These don't have brakes on them but
instead angle the grinding wheel for a scuffing action.
Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:02:32 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Wayne Cook" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:23:16 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Al A." wrote in message
...
snip----

After reading your description, I took a look at exactly what a
"Nobride" dressing stick is, and found that is not what I have. What I
have appears to be the silicon carbide type you describe, about 1"
square, 5" long, and looks sort of like a chunk of course grinding
wheel. Can I take it from what you wrote that that is somewhat
equivelent to the star dresser, though less aggressive?

Actually, they're more like a diamond. The only dressing tool that works
by
impact is the star type, and that's the most desirable surface you can
prepare.


I think we've had this discussion before but I thought I'd put a
word in on the best dresser I've ever used for a wheel being used to
grind tools offhand. The one I used was made by KO Lee and for a while
MSC didn't have anything similar. But it appears that they now handle
one just like it made by Desmond. You can see it here.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT...PMT4NO=4050604

I've never used anything that will leave as sharp a wheel but still
be a smooth and true as one of these and I've used diamond, silicon
carbide dressing sticks, diamond clusters, and star wheel dressers.
The one my former employer had was a single handle and for just
sharpening the wheel you don't have to hold it at the angle
recommended for full dressing. It will leave a smooth no run out
smooth faced wheel that will still cut as good or better than the star
dressers. Yes the wheel in the dresser needs to be replaced from time
to time and it's expensive to buy. But I've never found anything that
will leave a surface as good as one of these.

I was going to build one of these because I couldn't buy one but
never had the time to. I just noticed them back in the MSC catalog a
few months back when talking to a friend about grinding wheel
dressers. It's going on the next MSC order I make (if I have the spare
money for it).

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX

Very interesting, Wayne. Looks like it's nothing more than a circular
silicon carbide dressing stick, at least from the description. I can see
where it might be a good investment, depending on how much time a guy spends
at his pedestal grinder. Having never seen one, I'd enjoy hearing more
about it if you have the time. Can you verify my hunch?

I believe the wheel is simply a silicon carbide grinding wheel. It's
much finer (probably 40-60 grit) and softer than a dressing stick (at
least the ones I used where). We used some small aluminum oxide
grinding wheels as replacements for a while when we couldn't get the
right wheels. They worked fine but didn't last as long.

The only weak link on these in my experience is the bearing system.
It amounts to a pair of points going into counter sinks in the wheel
mandrel. There are grease or oil holes in the center of the screws on
each side. You have to maintain these bearing surfaces carefully or
the wheel will chatter (if to loose) or not turn (if to tight). As you
can imagine the gritty environment doesn't do these bearings much
good. But with the adjustability of them they can last a long time.
The one I used had to of been nearly as old as I was at the time.

For those that don't care to invest that amount for dressing your wheels, if
you follow the link Wayne provided, the dressing stick I recommend is to the
left, and slightly below the dresser in question. It's order number
05863014, a real bargain @ $2.55. One will likely last you a life time.
I'm still using what's left of one I acquired back in the 60's. It can be
used alone, no diamond necessary, although the use of a diamond makes
dressing much faster, assuming you have considerable wheel to remove.


Mine didn't last as long as that. Actually I think one of my helpers
threw mine away a while back. But it was showing some signs of wear
and had been dropped and broke at some point in time.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

"Wayne Cook" wrote in message
...
snip-----


I believe the wheel is simply a silicon carbide grinding wheel. It's
much finer (probably 40-60 grit) and softer than a dressing stick (at
least the ones I used where). We used some small aluminum oxide
grinding wheels as replacements for a while when we couldn't get the
right wheels. They worked fine but didn't last as long.

More good stuff snipped---

Thanks, Wayne. I get the idea now. Sounds good-----just expensive.

Harold

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:37:36 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Wayne Cook" wrote in message
.. .
snip-----


I believe the wheel is simply a silicon carbide grinding wheel. It's
much finer (probably 40-60 grit) and softer than a dressing stick (at
least the ones I used where). We used some small aluminum oxide
grinding wheels as replacements for a while when we couldn't get the
right wheels. They worked fine but didn't last as long.

More good stuff snipped---

Thanks, Wayne. I get the idea now.

You're welcome

Sounds good-----just expensive.

Yep but worth it IMHO. Actually when you get down to it they're not
that much more expensive than a star dresser of similar size.


Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:


Bad advice. For starters, a Norbide costs around $30, not $5. You're far
better served to buy a small mounted diamond, which is far more aggressive
towards grinding wheels and easier to apply. Unlike the typical silicon
carbide dressing stick that is 1" square and 6" long, the Norbide dressing
sticks are made of boron carbide, solid, typically 3/16" x 7/16" x 3" long,
and are not made of small bits that are bonded. Because of that feature,
they don't perform well. Bonded silicon carbide sticks keep sloughing off
the dull grain, presenting new, sharp cornered grains to the wheel, so they
do a better job of dressing. As you use the Norbide, it slowly wears until
it is well polished and lacks a sharp edge that is mandatory to get a sharp
wheel. The polished surface that results tends to dull the abrasive grains
of a wheel instead of cut or otherwise dislodge them, so the wheel doesn't
perform well. You'd be far better served to stick with a star dresser in
that case.

Harold




Harold,

I've seen you extolling the virtues of the silicon carbide dressing
sticks, so I bought a couple sticks described (in the current MSC
catalog on page 797) as "Abrasive Dresser Sticks, Silicon Carbide, For
truing and dressing grinding wheels." I've tried to use one on both
coarse and fine aluminum oxide grinding wheels, and they 1) virtually
don't cut anything and thus take forever to square up the wheel, and 2)
leave the most amazingly glazed wheel surface that I've ever managed to
produce. I actually use a single point diamond to *open up* the wheel
after using one of these.

What gives?

-- Greg

"Greg Dermer" wrote in message
...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:


Bad advice. For starters, a Norbide costs around $30, not $5. You're
far
better served to buy a small mounted diamond, which is far more
aggressive
towards grinding wheels and easier to apply. Unlike the typical
silicon
carbide dressing stick that is 1" square and 6" long, the Norbide
dressing
sticks are made of boron carbide, solid, typically 3/16" x 7/16" x 3"
long,
and are not made of small bits that are bonded. Because of that
feature,
they don't perform well. Bonded silicon carbide sticks keep sloughing
off
the dull grain, presenting new, sharp cornered grains to the wheel, so
they
do a better job of dressing. As you use the Norbide, it slowly wears
until
it is well polished and lacks a sharp edge that is mandatory to get a
sharp
wheel. The polished surface that results tends to dull the abrasive
grains
of a wheel instead of cut or otherwise dislodge them, so the wheel
doesn't
perform well. You'd be far better served to stick with a star dresser
in
that case.

Harold




Harold,

I've seen you extolling the virtues of the silicon carbide dressing
sticks, so I bought a couple sticks described (in the current MSC
catalog on page 797) as "Abrasive Dresser Sticks, Silicon Carbide, For
truing and dressing grinding wheels." I've tried to use one on both
coarse and fine aluminum oxide grinding wheels, and they 1) virtually
don't cut anything and thus take forever to square up the wheel, and 2)
leave the most amazingly glazed wheel surface that I've ever managed to
produce. I actually use a single point diamond to *open up* the wheel
after using one of these.

What gives?

-- Greg


I'm at a loss to explain it, Greg. Are you using the stick flat, the entire
face? The whole idea is to use a sharp corner, which will remove the wheel
at a fairly generous rate. Use the stick flat only to give the wheel a
final "leveling", so to speak, and even then, don't use a flat face if you
can avoid doing so. Use a corner, with a minimum of stick touching the
wheel. .

If you use a flat surface and allow the wheel to scuff it endlessly, you'll
polish the stick until it's not much different from a Norbide, the only
difference being that the stick is sintered, and not as hard as a Norbide.
In either case, the wheel is glazed instead of dressed, so you'd get what
you're describing. It's all in the application. I should have suggested
that you never allow the wheel to rub on the dressing stick, regardless of
make. I've used them so long I forget others may not understand a proper
application. Sorry!

I think I mentioned that dressing sticks work not only by cutting the
abrasive grains, but by dislodging them, exposing unused grain. When you
allow the stick to rub, it doesn't do that.

Hope that helps. How about a report after you've experimented a little?

Harold

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Greg Dermer" wrote in message


Harold,

I've seen you extolling the virtues of the silicon carbide dressing
sticks, so I bought a couple sticks described (in the current MSC
catalog on page 797) as "Abrasive Dresser Sticks, Silicon Carbide, For
truing and dressing grinding wheels." I've tried to use one on both
coarse and fine aluminum oxide grinding wheels, and they 1) virtually
don't cut anything and thus take forever to square up the wheel, and 2)
leave the most amazingly glazed wheel surface that I've ever managed to
produce. I actually use a single point diamond to *open up* the wheel
after using one of these.

What gives?

-- Greg



I'm at a loss to explain it, Greg. Are you using the stick flat, the entire
face? The whole idea is to use a sharp corner, which will remove the wheel
at a fairly generous rate. Use the stick flat only to give the wheel a
final "leveling", so to speak, and even then, don't use a flat face if you
can avoid doing so. Use a corner, with a minimum of stick touching the
wheel. .

If you use a flat surface and allow the wheel to scuff it endlessly, you'll
polish the stick until it's not much different from a Norbide, the only
difference being that the stick is sintered, and not as hard as a Norbide.
In either case, the wheel is glazed instead of dressed, so you'd get what
you're describing. It's all in the application. I should have suggested
that you never allow the wheel to rub on the dressing stick, regardless of
make. I've used them so long I forget others may not understand a proper
application. Sorry!

I think I mentioned that dressing sticks work not only by cutting the
abrasive grains, but by dislodging them, exposing unused grain. When you
allow the stick to rub, it doesn't do that.

Hope that helps. How about a report after you've experimented a little?

Harold


I'll try and find them (haven't used 'em for quite awhile, don't
remember how I applied them), experiment further and follow up. The
shops I've worked in were all of the star dresser and diamond catagory,
so maybe I just wasn't using them right.

-- Greg