On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 02:27:36 GMT, Ignoramus27731
wrote:

My old 10 HP phase converter could barely survive my 200 amp welding
machine, and the third leg sagged a lot and it vibrated etc.

So, today my wife and son left me alone for a whole day, and I made a
new phase converter out of the old one.

The new phase converter lives in the enclosure from an old Ferrups UPS
that I demolished a year ago. I put it on 4" casters for ease of
moving.

It actually has two idler motors. One is a 10 HP idler, and another is
a 7.5 HP idler. The first motor to start is the 10 HP.

If I decide that I need more power, I press a momentary push button
switch after the first motor spins up, and that makes the second motor
come up. It stays up until the system is switched off.

WITHOUT the second motor, my phase converter is a simple phase
converter with starting capacitors between legs 1-3 (3 being the
generated leg).

When the second motor is switched on, it also switches on extra
capacitors between legs 2 and 3. Thus these capacitors (two between
legs 1-3 and two between 2-3) instantly become balancing capacitors.

Effect of this on noise and vibration is very nice.

So, now basically I have a mercedes of phase converters. Some things
need to be finished, such as properly placing that pushbutton, adding
a distribution system for 3 phase, etc.

I used one Allen Bradley starter for the 10 HP motor, and a simple
contactor for the second one. The A-B starter has W63 heaters.

I sawed off the shaft of the 7.5 HP motor with a Harbor freight
bandsaw, and was impressed with its performance. (it did not fit the
enclosure well).

No pictures yet, as my wife took our camera.

The new one takes about as much space as the old one, but it is
taller, it has two levels. On the bottom level, the 10 HP motor lives,
and on the upper level, everything else lives -- the 7.5 HP motor and
electrics. The 7.5 HP and electrical **** are separated by a wall.

There is a fan on the bottom section and I need to add another fan for
the top section.

It looks actually not so bad in the ferrups enclosure, like if it cost
me $2000 or some such amount. The ferrups enclosure has better
appearance than particle board.

Another helpful thing was putting carpet underneath the motors, thanks
to Gunner's earlier suggestion. It helps tremendously. The new RPC
only makes a nice humming sound, helping me know it is running.

i

Ive got this really really nice heavy duty 20 hp cast iron open frame
230vt 1700 rpm motor if you ever come this way......

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

BIG SNIP

Ive got this really really nice heavy duty 20 hp cast iron open frame
230vt 1700 rpm motor if you ever come this way......

Thanks... I am afraid that I will blow my house's 200 A main breakers
if I try to start a 20 HP motor... 3X starting current could be 180
amps or so.

i
That's why it's a bit easier on the household systems to use Jim
Rozen's advice to run up the 10HP plus stuff with a pony motor. Does
away with a lot of the electrical contortions too. No problem doing a
"direct drive" or tight-belt mounting either, as the power required to
drive the un-excited pony is nil once the main "motor" is running.
Best if they are the same RPM to start with though.

I tried to use some very nice 25HP wound rotor motors I had, but when
they drew WAY too much current even at idle, I dropped back to 10HP.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:08:00 -0500, Brian Lawson
wrote:

BIG SNIP

Ive got this really really nice heavy duty 20 hp cast iron open frame
230vt 1700 rpm motor if you ever come this way......

Thanks... I am afraid that I will blow my house's 200 A main breakers
if I try to start a 20 HP motor... 3X starting current could be 180
amps or so.

i
That's why it's a bit easier on the household systems to use Jim
Rozen's advice to run up the 10HP plus stuff with a pony motor. Does
away with a lot of the electrical contortions too. No problem doing a
"direct drive" or tight-belt mounting either, as the power required to
drive the un-excited pony is nil once the main "motor" is running.
Best if they are the same RPM to start with though.

I tried to use some very nice 25HP wound rotor motors I had, but when
they drew WAY too much current even at idle, I dropped back to 10HP.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.


Thats also why I used the pony motor concept when building my 10 hp
rotory. I only have 100 amp service.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:15:50 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:08:00 -0500, Brian Lawson
wrote:

That's why it's a bit easier on the household systems to use Jim
Rozen's advice to run up the 10HP plus stuff with a pony motor. Does
away with a lot of the electrical contortions too. No problem doing a
"direct drive" or tight-belt mounting either, as the power required to
drive the un-excited pony is nil once the main "motor" is running.
Best if they are the same RPM to start with though.

I tried to use some very nice 25HP wound rotor motors I had, but when
they drew WAY too much current even at idle, I dropped back to 10HP.

Thats also why I used the pony motor concept when building my 10 hp
rotary. I only have 100 amp service.

There's only one true cure for that one - a healthier main service,
either 200A or 400A. Single-phase if that's your only option, 3-phase
if you can talk the utility into it. 120/208 Y is best for a house,
no 'Wild Leg' screw ups - just ask PV about that one.

Gunner, the offer still stands to come up there and waste a weekend
either changing the one pedestal over to a 200A 1Ph, or better,
installing a separate 3-phase feed and meter for the "shop".

I'm sure I can find enough homeless "Stuff" around there that needs
hauling off to a useful home to make it work. Might even haul off
something purring, you never know...

First you have to call PG&E and have the meter spotter come out, and
see what they'll allow you to do without huge fees. Then one of us
needs to scrounge up a panel, and you might have to call in that favor
to borrow a backhoe...

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 02:46:00 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:15:50 GMT, Gunner Asch
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:08:00 -0500, Brian Lawson
wrote:

That's why it's a bit easier on the household systems to use Jim
Rozen's advice to run up the 10HP plus stuff with a pony motor. Does
away with a lot of the electrical contortions too. No problem doing a
"direct drive" or tight-belt mounting either, as the power required to
drive the un-excited pony is nil once the main "motor" is running.
Best if they are the same RPM to start with though.

I tried to use some very nice 25HP wound rotor motors I had, but when
they drew WAY too much current even at idle, I dropped back to 10HP.

Thats also why I used the pony motor concept when building my 10 hp
rotary. I only have 100 amp service.

There's only one true cure for that one - a healthier main service,
either 200A or 400A. Single-phase if that's your only option, 3-phase
if you can talk the utility into it. 120/208 Y is best for a house,
no 'Wild Leg' screw ups - just ask PV about that one.

Gunner, the offer still stands to come up there and waste a weekend
either changing the one pedestal over to a 200A 1Ph, or better,
installing a separate 3-phase feed and meter for the "shop".

I'm sure I can find enough homeless "Stuff" around there that needs
hauling off to a useful home to make it work. Might even haul off
something purring, you never know...

First you have to call PG&E and have the meter spotter come out, and
see what they'll allow you to do without huge fees. Then one of us
needs to scrounge up a panel, and you might have to call in that favor
to borrow a backhoe...

-- Bruce --

Many thanks, again for your kind offer Bruce and its one Ill keep
foremost in mind. At this point in time...I cant even afford to pay
attention...with a fair amount of accounts receivable..and some very
very slow payers. Though if they all paid tommorow..the bill
collecters would bleed me dry in seconds.

In fact..after the first of the year, Im going to sit down, and do
some number crunching..and see if I can afford to even remain in this
business another year. After fighting the pneumoia last week..no
dollars for a doctor, buying my meds from the pet store, etc etc...Im
tired of having no life, no fun and no money. It was simply another
event I dont want to repeat. As they say..when you find yourself in a
hole..first thing you do is stop digging.

At 52, having had 2 back surgeries, and an angioplasty..Im not exactly
the sort of "on paper" material a companies HR people wants to add to
their staff..so I dont know if Im stuck with being self employed, or
can find another schtick with say..a hospital, that can use my rather
varied maint skills etc etc. Living here in the hinterlands doesnt
help much either..but there is NO ability to move someplace closer to
Da Big City on the horizon. And the being on the road 4-5 days a week,
keeping the falling apart RC going, in an expensive RV park in So Cal,
and making that CV to LA drive twice a week is getting really
old..with a tired old truck with 385,000 miles on it..and no way to
get a replacement any time soon.

Frankly..Im tired. Tired of being tired. Tired of not having ridden
the BMW for 7 years, or having had one of the sail boats out for even
longer..and they all simply sit rotting away while I struggle to keep
things going. My **** poor career and life choices are finally
catching up with me....and Im running out of life.

Now on the other hand, you are most welcome to come up for a day or a
weekend, and come play in the shop, or dig through the Stacks O ****.
Grub is on me and while I dont drink..I can probably find you a soft
or adult beverage of your choice, and something purrrfect to warm your
lap and/or take home with you. And lots of Stuff.

I swear to God..the only thing that keeps me going and sane..is that
my critters need to eat too. Chuckle. Shrug..whimper...lol

Any time you want to spend a day up here..you are more than welcome.
But come to play, not work. Id like the diversion. In fact..I think I
need one.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

I use a pony motor instead of caps to spin up my 30hp to get rid of hi
amps, works well. I start my 20 idler off the 30.

The pony is a 3/4hp single phase, it is 'geared' to spin the 30 up to
1250rpm before it switches on. I run two Toyoda CNC's (vert and horiz)
and a Bostamatic off the 30hp, not all at once, I can run the vertical
Toyoda and the Bosto at the same time, the Horiz must run alone. The
twenty is used for a rotary 7.5hp compressor, you should use a lot of
'overkill' on three phase converters running compressors. If you want
clean/balanced 3ph power, run caps are your friends, and many small
ones will let you tailor the phases for good balance.