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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Material Recommendation?
Being the cheapskate that I am , I have decided to rework original rather
than replace some of the parts on the 1939 H-D I'm rebuilding (not "restoring" !) . Some of the parts I have decided to rework are the lower rockers on the springer front end (where the wheel mounts ...). More to the point , I need to decide what to make the rocker bushings from . The originals are steel , and just a bit softer than a knife blade . A file will mark it , but not deeply . The rocker studs seem to be mild steel , at least they machined easily . I am considering case hardening the wear surfaces ... bushings are cheaper than studs . The bushings will be about 1" OD X .875" long , with a wall thickness of either .150" or .165" , depending on which location they're in . I have very limited experience with material selection (unless you want to build some cabinets or a receptionist's desk ---) and have no idea what alloy would be best for these bushings . Anybody care to venture an opinion ? I will be making some bearing cups to replace the ball bearings in the steering neck with a tapered roller , and need some suggestions there also . Thanks ! -- Snag aka OSG #1 '76 FLH "Bag Lady" none to one to reply |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Material Recommendation?
I'm sorry, but I really don't know much about the names of stuff on old
tractors. Is it a wide front end, or narrow? Is this the part the wide front end pivots on, or is it the part teh narrow front end rotates around to turn the tractor???? in any case, brass is a common bushing material. It is soft, and functions well for places that are greased regularly, turn, but are not pounded on. So brass is good for bushings for the steering wheel shaft, but not so good for wheel bearings. UHMW is used for bushings, but it is not as tough as brass. Steel is used. Again, you need to grease it. Harder obviously. I'd use mild steel. The goal is the bushing material should be the softest material around so it wears out the fastest, instead of your shaft. |
#3
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Material Recommendation?
Doug wrote:
I'm sorry, but I really don't know much about the names of stuff on old tractors. Is it a wide front end, or narrow? Is this the part the wide front end pivots on, or is it the part teh narrow front end rotates around to turn the tractor???? in any case, brass is a common bushing material. It is soft, and functions well for places that are greased regularly, turn, but are not pounded on. So brass is good for bushings for the steering wheel shaft, but not so good for wheel bearings. UHMW is used for bushings, but it is not as tough as brass. Steel is used. Again, you need to grease it. Harder obviously. I'd use mild steel. The goal is the bushing material should be the softest material around so it wears out the fastest, instead of your shaft. Uhh , I think we missed a connection here . The bushings I'm making are for a motorcycle springer front end at the bottom of the forks . There are 3 holes in the rocker , 2 of them need to rotate a few degrees as the springs compress and extend . The 3rd is the hole the axle goes thru . I'm inclined after talking to a couple of folks to use 4130 steel , I can get it pre-hardened to 28-32 c (I think that's what he said) . With a case hardened pivot pin (or stud as Harley calls it) the bushing should wear and leave the studs intact ... which sounds good to me , cuz the studs are expensive , relatively speaking . -- Snag aka OSG #1 '76 FLH "Bag Lady" BS132 SENS NEWT "A hand shift is a manly shift ." shamelessly stolen none to one to reply |
#4
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Material Recommendation?
oops. i was thinking tractor, you were thinking motorcycle!!!!!!!!!!!
hehe |
#5
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Material Recommendation?
Snag wrote:
A file will mark it , but not deeply . The rocker studs seem to be mild steel , at least they machined easily . I am considering case hardening the wear surfaces ... bushings are cheaper than studs . Bronce (not brass!) is always a good bearing material. But the stud running in it has to be hard. Case hardening is a good solution, because the hard skin doesn't have to be deep at all. I will be making some bearing cups to replace the ball bearings in the steering neck with a tapered roller , and need some suggestions there also . Thanks ! Free machining steel will do the job and help you in machining it. HTH, Nick -- Motor Modelle // Engine Models http://www.motor-manufaktur.de DIY-DRO - YADRO - Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige |
#6
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Material Recommendation?
"Nick Müller" wrote:
Snag wrote: A file will mark it , but not deeply . The rocker studs seem to be mild steel , at least they machined easily . I am considering case hardening the wear surfaces ... bushings are cheaper than studs . Bronce (not brass!) is always a good bearing material. But the stud running in it has to be hard. Case hardening is a good solution, because the hard skin doesn't have to be deep at all. The problem with bronze here is that these bushings get a lot of shock loads as the wheel rides over the road . I went to the only supplier in the area that services small accounts and got some 4140 bar stock . As supplied it's at about 28-32 c hardness , which should work OK in my application . Gotta find a local source for case hardening stuff for the studs , or order some from enco or somewhere . I will be making some bearing cups to replace the ball bearings in the steering neck with a tapered roller , and need some suggestions there also . Thanks ! Free machining steel will do the job and help you in machining it. I think I'll ask my buddy the machinist if he's got any of that hidden in his supply ... HTH, Nick I've learned a lot from lurking here , thanks so much for your advice ! -- Snag aka OSG #1 '76 FLH "Bag Lady" BS132 SENS NEWT "A hand shift is a manly shift ." shamelessly stolen none to one to reply |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Material Recommendation?
Snag wrote:
The problem with bronze here is that these bushings get a lot of shock loads as the wheel rides over the road . It's not the bushing that has to resist elastic deformation, it's the material _behind_ it. Look how thin crank shaft bearings are. Nick -- Motor Modelle // Engine Models http://www.motor-manufaktur.de DIY-DRO - YADRO - Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige |
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Material Recommendation?
"Nick Müller" wrote:
Snag wrote: The problem with bronze here is that these bushings get a lot of shock loads as the wheel rides over the road . It's not the bushing that has to resist elastic deformation, it's the material _behind_ it. Look how thin crank shaft bearings are. Nick Sure thing , and you're right . My cue was that the originals were steel alloy . H-D had a reason for that ... so I'm doing it the way they did . BTW , crank bearings are usually at least 2" diameter , and run with an oil film . These are .674 and .699 diameter , and are greased . They also only rotate about 10 degrees max , so the load is very concentrated . I'll be posting some pics at alt.binaries.pictures.motorcycles.harley later today of the old and the new . -- Snag aka OSG #1 '76 FLH "Bag Lady" BS132 SENS NEWT "A hand shift is a manly shift ." shamelessly stolen none to one to reply |
#9
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Material Recommendation?
Snag wrote:
Just to be pedantic: ;-) My cue was that the originals were steel alloy . H-D had a reason for that ... There was a reason. Maybe without reason. BTW , crank bearings are usually at least 2" diameter , and run with an oil film . My example was only to show, that the bearing material itself doesn't have to be thick-walled. These are .674 and .699 diameter , and are greased . They also only rotate about 10 degrees max , so the load is very concentrated . The same is valid for bronce and steel bushings. :-) Generaly, steel (gliding) on steel without _pressurized_ oiling is deemed to fail. One exception coming to my mind is a CI-bushing. Nick -- Motor Modelle // Engine Models http://www.motor-manufaktur.de DIY-DRO - YADRO - Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Material Recommendation?
Some people get confused about the difference of a HD and JD.
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#11
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Material Recommendation?
"Nick Müller" wrote in message ... Snag wrote: snip Bronce (not brass!) is always a good bearing material. But the stud running in it has to be hard. Case hardening is a good solution, because the hard skin doesn't have to be deep at all. snip HTH, Nick -- Motor Modelle // Engine Models http://www.motor-manufaktur.de DIY-DRO - YADRO - Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige You can't just use any bronze for making a bushing, right? I thought it had to be Aluminum-Nickel-Bronze or similar. I thought some types of bronze were too soft for bushings. I made a bushing for a friend once for his tractor and the stock he brought me was used to machine knuckle bushings for Boeing landing gear. Very hard stuff and was Aluminum-Nickel-Bronze. I also made some bushings out of brass for another friend for the hinge pins on the driver's side door on an old Camaro. He said they didn't last a year before they wore through. So you're right that Brass is no good. |
#12
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Material Recommendation?
I'm glad your rebuilding not restoring. While restorations are beautiful
it's better to ride them. Karl "Snag" wrote in message news Being the cheapskate that I am , I have decided to rework original rather than replace some of the parts on the 1939 H-D I'm rebuilding (not "restoring" !) . Some of the parts I have decided to rework are the lower rockers on the springer front end (where the wheel mounts ...). More to the point , I need to decide what to make the rocker bushings from . The originals are steel , and just a bit softer than a knife blade . A file will mark it , but not deeply . The rocker studs seem to be mild steel , at least they machined easily . I am considering case hardening the wear surfaces .... bushings are cheaper than studs . The bushings will be about 1" OD X .875" long , with a wall thickness of either .150" or .165" , depending on which location they're in . I have very limited experience with material selection (unless you want to build some cabinets or a receptionist's desk ---) and have no idea what alloy would be best for these bushings . Anybody care to venture an opinion ? I will be making some bearing cups to replace the ball bearings in the steering neck with a tapered roller , and need some suggestions there also .. Thanks ! -- Snag aka OSG #1 '76 FLH "Bag Lady" none to one to reply |
#13
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Material Recommendation?
Karl Vorwerk wrote:
I'm glad your rebuilding not restoring. While restorations are beautiful it's better to ride them. Karl "Snag" wrote in message news Being the cheapskate that I am , I have decided to rework original rather than replace some of the parts on the 1939 H-D I'm rebuilding (not "restoring" !) . -- Too much of the original is gone , the AMCA calls my bike "a collection of parts , not a motorcycle" . Fine with me , I can have every bit as much fun on a collection of parts as I could on a "motorcycle" . My main problem has been that many parts , especially for the tranny , are no longer available . I bought my lathe to make them ... as I'm doing with the springer bushings .. And it's so much fun , to boot ! -- Snag aka OSG #1 '76 FLH "Bag Lady" BS132 SENS NEWT "A hand shift is a manly shift ." shamelessly stolen none to one to reply |
#14
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Material Recommendation?
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:57:28 -0600, "Snag"
wrote: Being the cheapskate that I am , I have decided to rework original rather than replace some of the parts on the 1939 H-D I'm rebuilding (not "restoring" !) . Some of the parts I have decided to rework are the lower rockers on the springer front end (where the wheel mounts ...). More to the point , I need to decide what to make the rocker bushings from . The originals are steel , and just a bit softer than a knife blade . A file will mark it , but not deeply . The rocker studs seem to be mild steel , at least they machined easily . I am considering case hardening the wear surfaces ... bushings are cheaper than studs . The bushings will be about 1" OD X .875" long , with a wall thickness of either .150" or .165" , depending on which location they're in . I have very limited experience with material selection (unless you want to build some cabinets or a receptionist's desk ---) and have no idea what alloy would be best for these bushings . Anybody care to venture an opinion ? Well **** Snag, if yer really a cheapskate, buy these (scroll down a ways): http://www.aaok.com/partsections/frontend.html According to my math, that's only $9.00 per for all four. I sure as hell couldn't make 'em for less than that. I will be making some bearing cups to replace the ball bearings in the steering neck with a tapered roller , and need some suggestions there also . Thanks ! And why do ya want to do that? Those old ball bearings last for 100's of thousands of miles. I switched to tapered rollers in my '37 Knuck once and went back to ball bearings after about 30k miles. If yer bound and determined to go with tapered anyway, they're (cups) available from Ted's V-Twin for *way* less than you could make 'em too. Snarl |
#16
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Material Recommendation?
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:56:55 -0600, "Snag"
wrote: schnipp That'll be 2 Coors twice and eight bucks for Snarl . The link itself is worth more than that !! A bargain at twice th' price, eh g. Actually , two feet of 4140 (1" and inch a quarter) and a foot of 1" ampco 18 cost me less than the bushing set . Part of the reason I'm making them is because the studs were worn , and I turned them down just to clean-up , rears at .699" and fronts are .674" now . The other part is the personal satisfaction of saying I did it myself ... Ok, that I'll buy. Looks like they were pretty hammered. Any sign of grease in/on them when ya disassembled it? Got the set for the sprung leg almost made already , just gotta turn a few thou offa the outside to get a .001" tight press fit . I'll hone them a bit after they're pressed in for final fit . Got the others roughed on the same piece of stock , just a few passes with a boring bar and finish size the outside . Do you know if the studs were originally case-hardened ? These seemed pretty soft , machined easily , but they were worn . I can't say with 100% accuracy, but I'd bet they were. In any event, you definately want th' studs harder than th' bushings. And they should be hit with a grease gun every 1,000 miles. I check clearances on my rocker studs every winter just to be sure. Got a new top race coming , I think that'll be everything but the balls - I'm taking your advice on that one. A good way to prolong steering neck bearing life is to not always park with th' front end flopped over in th' same position... usually pointed left. Alternate how you angle th' front wheel when parked, there's a lot of static weight and wear if it's always th' same. My goal for this winter is to get that chassis rollin' - maybe then I'll be more motivated to get it finished . Been sitting out there since '98 , way too long . Hey, at least yer still playin' with it and having some fun... nothing wrong there. Snarl... thanks for th' coldbeers g |
#17
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