Interesting story, last night I went down the shop
to do some work and found a small puddle on the floor.
A solder joint where the copper hot water pipe was joined
to a 3/8 NPT adapter into an old bronze valve had let
loose and was leaking water onto the floor.

I took the opportunity to show my daughter how to
do a sweat solder repair (per harold's and my
discussion of a few days ago) and we had the
water back on in an hour or so.

After that we took the leaking fitting and hacksawed
it apart so that we could find the problem, and it
was pretty apparent that the plumber who did it
didn't clean it or flux it nearly enough so there
were major voids inside the joint that were full of
oxide. It lasted about 50 years, but I guess
nothing lasts forever.

The interesting part though was that today I took the
parts into work to give them the close hairy eyeball
under a good microscope, and while looking at them,
I realized that whoever made up the threaded fitting
between the adapter and the valve, used some unusual
compound in the threads - in fact, he had used nothing
more than cotton sewing thread. It was all bunched
up at the root of the male copper threads, but there
were several layers of thread that I could unwind and
inspect.

There wasn't any dope or tape or matrix material of
any kind mixed in with the thread, all of the fibers
were clear and freely visible.

I wonder if this was a common practice 'way back
when,' using sewing thread to seal pipe fittings?

It seems to have worked just fine, as the only leak
in evidence was at the copper-to-copper joint, all
of the threads were leak-tight.

The bronze valve btw had a) no washer left in it,
and b) the screw to hold the washer was mostly gone
as well.

Ah the joys of old houses!

Jim

==================================================
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JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:37:39 -0800, jim rozen wrote:

Interesting story, last night I went down the shop
to do some work and found a small puddle on the floor.
A solder joint where the copper hot water pipe was joined
to a 3/8 NPT adapter into an old bronze valve had let
loose and was leaking water onto the floor.


The interesting part though was that today I took the
parts into work to give them the close hairy eyeball
under a good microscope, and while looking at them,
I realized that whoever made up the threaded fitting
between the adapter and the valve, used some unusual
compound in the threads - in fact, he had used nothing
more than cotton sewing thread. It was all bunched
up at the root of the male copper threads, but there
were several layers of thread that I could unwind and
inspect.
It was Plumbers hemp not cotton unless he was a very unusual plumber.

There wasn't any dope or tape or matrix material of
any kind mixed in with the thread, all of the fibers
were clear and freely visible.
There should have been what is now called plumders jointing compound, back
the it was called all sorts of things depending on where you were.
I wonder if this was a common practice 'way back when,' using sewing
thread to seal pipe fittings?
Yes

It seems to have worked just fine, as the only leak in evidence was at
the copper-to-copper joint, all of the threads were leak-tight.

The bronze valve btw had a) no washer left in it, and b) the screw to
hold the washer was mostly gone as well.

Ah the joys of old houses!
=====

--
Neil
Cut the spamless for email

jim rozen wrote:
Interesting story, last night I went down the shop
to do some work and found a small puddle on the floor.
A solder joint where the copper hot water pipe was joined
to a 3/8 NPT adapter into an old bronze valve had let
loose and was leaking water onto the floor.

I took the opportunity to show my daughter how to
do a sweat solder repair (per harold's and my
discussion of a few days ago) and we had the
water back on in an hour or so.

After that we took the leaking fitting and hacksawed
it apart so that we could find the problem, and it
was pretty apparent that the plumber who did it
didn't clean it or flux it nearly enough so there
were major voids inside the joint that were full of
oxide. It lasted about 50 years, but I guess
nothing lasts forever.

The interesting part though was that today I took the
parts into work to give them the close hairy eyeball
under a good microscope, and while looking at them,
I realized that whoever made up the threaded fitting
between the adapter and the valve, used some unusual
compound in the threads - in fact, he had used nothing
more than cotton sewing thread. It was all bunched
up at the root of the male copper threads, but there
were several layers of thread that I could unwind and
inspect.

There wasn't any dope or tape or matrix material of
any kind mixed in with the thread, all of the fibers
were clear and freely visible.

I wonder if this was a common practice 'way back
when,' using sewing thread to seal pipe fittings?

It is still used, we used to refer to it as lampwick. They still have it at
the plumbing supply, so someone else must be using it too. It is good for
pipe carrying water, as it expands when wet, or at least that's what my boss
told me. It should be used in conjunction with dope. It is the way to go if
you want to make really sure something doesn't leak- part of a header, for
example.

In article , ATP says...

I wonder if this was a common practice 'way back
when,' using sewing thread to seal pipe fittings?

It is still used, we used to refer to it as lampwick. They still have it at
the plumbing supply, so someone else must be using it too. It is good for
pipe carrying water, as it expands when wet, or at least that's what my boss
told me. It should be used in conjunction with dope. It is the way to go if
you want to make really sure something doesn't leak- part of a header, for
example.

This was real fine stuff, it looked like the plumber just
raided his wife's sewing box. There was no dope in with
it, because the individual threads, and the strands within
the threads, are easily separated.

It obviously sure works great, because those valves never
leaked. I still have two of the old ones in place, but
give the state of the washer (rubber washers simply don't
last any length of time in hot water lines IMO) I don't
think I'll count on them to hold.

I'm sure some poor fool will be into that house in another
hundred years, cussing me out. "goddam teflon seat ball
valves. Those things are crap. Why didn't that guy use
the unobtainium valves here??"

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 22 Nov 2003 21:37:39 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

I took the opportunity to show my daughter how to
do a sweat solder repair (per harold's and my
discussion of a few days ago) and we had the
water back on in an hour or so.

Last year my daughter's home lost heat (BB hot water) and she and her
husband were about to call a plumber when she said "Wait a minute, we
are both graduates of Norwich Tech and both college graduates. We
should be able to figure this out ourselves". And they did.

Later my favorite daughter told me that all the times I had her hold
tools and explained to her what I was doing and why paid off and she
appreciated the lessons.

OK so she is my only daughter. She is still my favorite!

This is the same girl who used to jump the fence and go out on the
catwalk under the local bridge across the river. About 150 feet to
the water! When she told me this story I said I would have killed her
had I know at the time. To which she asked, why do I think that she
had waited some 20 years to mention it! No fool she.

Errol Groff
Instructor, Machine Tool Department
H.H. Ellis Tech
613 Upper Maple Street
Danielson, CT 06239

860 774 8511 x1811

http://pages.cthome.net/errol.groff/

http://newenglandmodelengineeringsociety.org/

Since organic weaves swell when wet, it makes sense for a
depression-era make-do job. Anything like the things you are
describing that last 50+years can't be faulted.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

jim rozen wrote:

Interesting story, last night I went down the shop
to do some work and found a small puddle on the floor.
A solder joint where the copper hot water pipe was joined
to a 3/8 NPT adapter into an old bronze valve had let
loose and was leaking water onto the floor.

I took the opportunity to show my daughter how to
do a sweat solder repair (per harold's and my
discussion of a few days ago) and we had the
water back on in an hour or so.

After that we took the leaking fitting and hacksawed
it apart so that we could find the problem, and it
was pretty apparent that the plumber who did it
didn't clean it or flux it nearly enough so there
were major voids inside the joint that were full of
oxide. It lasted about 50 years, but I guess
nothing lasts forever.

The interesting part though was that today I took the
parts into work to give them the close hairy eyeball
under a good microscope, and while looking at them,
I realized that whoever made up the threaded fitting
between the adapter and the valve, used some unusual
compound in the threads - in fact, he had used nothing
more than cotton sewing thread. It was all bunched
up at the root of the male copper threads, but there
were several layers of thread that I could unwind and
inspect.

There wasn't any dope or tape or matrix material of
any kind mixed in with the thread, all of the fibers
were clear and freely visible.

I wonder if this was a common practice 'way back
when,' using sewing thread to seal pipe fittings?

It seems to have worked just fine, as the only leak
in evidence was at the copper-to-copper joint, all
of the threads were leak-tight.

The bronze valve btw had a) no washer left in it,
and b) the screw to hold the washer was mostly gone
as well.

Ah the joys of old houses!

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

--
Remove X to reply

--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:

"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

In article , Errol Groff says...

This is the same girl who used to jump the fence and go out on the
catwalk under the local bridge across the river. About 150 feet to
the water!

=8-O

Eeek.

When she told me this story I said I would have killed her
had I know at the time. To which she asked, why do I think that she
had waited some 20 years to mention it! No fool she.

Hmm. Well there's that. I never did tell my folks about
some of the stuff that I did. I think it's best to still
avoid that....

Jim

==================================================
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JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , JR North says...

Since organic weaves swell when wet, it makes sense for a
depression-era make-do job. Anything like the things you are
describing that last 50+years can't be faulted.

Quite right. I just suspect that at the time, that
may not have been a make-do. And the threaded part
of the joint was absolutely water tight, as I mentioned.
That was not what went wrong there.

One of the original owners of this house was a plumber,
so it has has some interesting features.

I strongly suspect that it had indoor plumbing at a time
(right around 1900) when many houses did not. The cast
iron waste lines are standard weight, very thin. But
clearly he wanted to add on another bathroom, because
there's a second vertical stack that ends up in the
wall in the attic, and hooks over the sill down in the
basement. Open at both ends. That was a puzzler until
I found out he was a plumber, he knew it would be easy
to put that in during construction, tough later.

It has the original central heat, circulating hot water.
But the pipes that carry heat to the second story
radiators do not travel upstairs through the walls,
they're exposed out in the open. So when the upstairs
zone fires you get some head downstairs too.

The quality of the work is strictly middle-poor. I can
see Mr. Frost saying to himself, 'this will hold it until
I can get back to it later.' Ha.

Later on he went on to become a city cop, my neighbor
to the south knew him then. He was a "mean" cop. Used
to sit in the driveway and wait to catch speeders on the
road out in front.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

JR North wrote:
Since organic weaves swell when wet, it makes sense for a
depression-era make-do job. Anything like the things you are
describing that last 50+years can't be faulted.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Using lampwick is not a make-do job. A wrap of lampwick followed by a coat
of pipe dope will beat Teflon every time.

jim rozen wrote:
In article , ATP
says...

I wonder if this was a common practice 'way back
when,' using sewing thread to seal pipe fittings?

It is still used, we used to refer to it as lampwick. They still
have it at the plumbing supply, so someone else must be using it
too. It is good for pipe carrying water, as it expands when wet, or
at least that's what my boss told me. It should be used in
conjunction with dope. It is the way to go if you want to make
really sure something doesn't leak- part of a header, for example.

This was real fine stuff, it looked like the plumber just
raided his wife's sewing box. There was no dope in with
it, because the individual threads, and the strands within
the threads, are easily separated.

Lampwick is fine, actually finer than thread. It probably would work without
dope.

In article , ATP says...

Lampwick is fine, actually finer than thread. It probably would work without
dope.

LOL. Trust me, it does!

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

It may have been cotton, but I suspect it was not. The New Zealanders
and maybe the Ausies ought to chime in here............ Could it have
been Hemp?

Dan


jim rozen wrote in message


The interesting part though was that today I took the
parts into work to give them the close hairy eyeball
under a good microscope, and while looking at them,
I realized that whoever made up the threaded fitting
between the adapter and the valve, used some unusual
compound in the threads - in fact, he had used nothing
more than cotton sewing thread. It was all bunched
up at the root of the male copper threads, but there
were several layers of thread that I could unwind and
inspect.

Ah the joys of old houses!

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On other topic - but 50 years ago, the brake systems used to be
tied together with leather straps on 2 ton stake bed trucks!

I had a friend with one - and he lost the leather one day -
He knew how to stop the truck without one rear brake.

The brake man had a fit! Finally after replacing the shoes,
my friend tied it up with a new leather that he had just in case.

No wonder so many trucks crashed in those days :-)

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

I though maybe somebody else with more knowledge would have jumped in
here, but to me .......

The stuff Jim described in the OP sounds like Oakum. Not sure exactly
what the fibre is/was, but it was used also in the joints of soil
pipes. Came in a variety of shapes and sizes, and for let's say a 4"
sewer line joint a 3/8" piece, long enough to do the circumference a
couple of times, would be rammed into the joint first, like a gland
packing, and then lead poured in to seal it. It also kept the lead
from leaking into the pipe.

That's my recollection anyway.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

On 23 Nov 2003 16:40:17 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , JR North says...

Since organic weaves swell when wet, it makes sense for a
depression-era make-do job. Anything like the things you are
describing that last 50+years can't be faulted.

Quite right. I just suspect that at the time, that
may not have been a make-do. And the threaded part
of the joint was absolutely water tight, as I mentioned.
That was not what went wrong there.

One of the original owners of this house was a plumber,
so it has has some interesting features.

I strongly suspect that it had indoor plumbing at a time
(right around 1900) when many houses did not. The cast
iron waste lines are standard weight, very thin. But
clearly he wanted to add on another bathroom, because
there's a second vertical stack that ends up in the
wall in the attic, and hooks over the sill down in the
basement. Open at both ends. That was a puzzler until
I found out he was a plumber, he knew it would be easy
to put that in during construction, tough later.

It has the original central heat, circulating hot water.
But the pipes that carry heat to the second story
radiators do not travel upstairs through the walls,
they're exposed out in the open. So when the upstairs
zone fires you get some head downstairs too.

The quality of the work is strictly middle-poor. I can
see Mr. Frost saying to himself, 'this will hold it until
I can get back to it later.' Ha.

Later on he went on to become a city cop, my neighbor
to the south knew him then. He was a "mean" cop. Used
to sit in the driveway and wait to catch speeders on the
road out in front.

Jim

================================================= =
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================= =

In article , Dan Caster says...

It may have been cotton, but I suspect it was not. The New Zealanders
and maybe the Ausies ought to chime in here............ Could it have
been Hemp?

I'm pretty sure the owner of the house did this
repair - and he raided his wife's sewing basket.

You could take a look at the fibers next time you
are in town - they're way too fine to be oakum
or hemp.

Jim

==================================================
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JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 24 Nov 2003 07:09:29 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Dan Caster says...

It may have been cotton, but I suspect it was not. The New Zealanders
and maybe the Ausies ought to chime in here............ Could it have
been Hemp?

I'm pretty sure the owner of the house did this
repair - and he raided his wife's sewing basket.

You could take a look at the fibers next time you
are in town - they're way too fine to be oakum
or hemp.

I've heard of waxed dental floss being wrapped into the root of the
thread to seal a "dri-fit" (tapered pipe) thread.
Jim

================================================= =
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================= =

jim rozen wrote:

I'm sure some poor fool will be into that house in another
hundred years, cussing me out. "goddam teflon seat ball
valves. Those things are crap. Why didn't that guy use
the unobtainium valves here??"

LOL! I used those ""goddam teflon seat ball valves" for all the shut
off valves in this house. They've been in service now for about seven
years with on failure - the plating on one ball failed and caused a slow
leak through the valve. I do like easy to turn, quarter turn shut offs
after fighting with the usuall shut off valves for most of my life.

Ted

Hmmm. It could also be wick wool. I still have a ball of the stuff that was
my fathers. It looks a bit like string, and was commonly used to pack the
stems of water taps.

Steve R.


"Brian Lawson" wrote in message
...
I though maybe somebody else with more knowledge would have jumped in
here, but to me .......

The stuff Jim described in the OP sounds like Oakum. Not sure exactly
what the fibre is/was, but it was used also in the joints of soil
pipes. Came in a variety of shapes and sizes, and for let's say a 4"
sewer line joint a 3/8" piece, long enough to do the circumference a
couple of times, would be rammed into the joint first, like a gland
packing, and then lead poured in to seal it. It also kept the lead
from leaking into the pipe.

That's my recollection anyway.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

On 23 Nov 2003 16:40:17 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , JR North says...

Since organic weaves swell when wet, it makes sense for a
depression-era make-do job. Anything like the things you are
describing that last 50+years can't be faulted.

Quite right. I just suspect that at the time, that
may not have been a make-do. And the threaded part
of the joint was absolutely water tight, as I mentioned.
That was not what went wrong there.

One of the original owners of this house was a plumber,
so it has has some interesting features.

I strongly suspect that it had indoor plumbing at a time
(right around 1900) when many houses did not. The cast
iron waste lines are standard weight, very thin. But
clearly he wanted to add on another bathroom, because
there's a second vertical stack that ends up in the
wall in the attic, and hooks over the sill down in the
basement. Open at both ends. That was a puzzler until
I found out he was a plumber, he knew it would be easy
to put that in during construction, tough later.

It has the original central heat, circulating hot water.
But the pipes that carry heat to the second story
radiators do not travel upstairs through the walls,
they're exposed out in the open. So when the upstairs
zone fires you get some head downstairs too.

The quality of the work is strictly middle-poor. I can
see Mr. Frost saying to himself, 'this will hold it until
I can get back to it later.' Ha.

Later on he went on to become a city cop, my neighbor
to the south knew him then. He was a "mean" cop. Used
to sit in the driveway and wait to catch speeders on the
road out in front.

Jim

================================================= =
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================= =

Brian Lawson wrote:

snipped

a 3/8" piece, long enough to do the circumference a
couple of times, would be rammed into the joint first, like a gland
packing, and then lead poured in to seal it. It also kept the lead
from leaking into the pipe.

Yeah, it used to be real fun making those poured lead joints on horizontal
CI pipes. We used something a bit like a piece of a V-belt to temporarily
block around the opening of the joint. It had a clamp holding it together
at the top leaving an opening into which you poured the lead. I never saw
one seal perfectly, we were always hopping around to avoid dribbles and
splashing molten lead.

When the lead cooled we used offset "caulking irons" to whack the lead
down into the joint to insure a good seal.

The guys who've never used anything except PVC pipes with glued joints
sure don't know what they missed.

Jeff
--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."





That's my recollection anyway.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.


snipped

Even more fun is to try to get such a (rusted) joint apart...

"JW" == Jeff Wisnia writes:

JW Brian Lawson wrote:

JW snipped

a 3/8" piece, long enough to do the circumference a
couple of times, would be rammed into the joint first, like a gland
packing, and then lead poured in to seal it. It also kept the lead
from leaking into the pipe.

JW Yeah, it used to be real fun making those poured lead joints on horizontal
JW CI pipes. We used something a bit like a piece of a V-belt to temporarily
JW block around the opening of the joint. It had a clamp holding it together
JW at the top leaving an opening into which you poured the lead. I never saw
JW one seal perfectly, we were always hopping around to avoid dribbles and
JW splashing molten lead.

JW When the lead cooled we used offset "caulking irons" to whack the lead
JW down into the joint to insure a good seal.

JW The guys who've never used anything except PVC pipes with glued joints
JW sure don't know what they missed.

JW Jeff
JW --

JW Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

JW "If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
JW to blame it on."





That's my recollection anyway.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.


JW snipped


--
Strange attractors stole my wife

Brian Lawson wrote:
I though maybe somebody else with more knowledge would have jumped in
here, but to me .......

The stuff Jim described in the OP sounds like Oakum. Not sure exactly
what the fibre is/was, but it was used also in the joints of soil
pipes. Came in a variety of shapes and sizes, and for let's say a 4"
sewer line joint a 3/8" piece, long enough to do the circumference a
couple of times, would be rammed into the joint first, like a gland
packing, and then lead poured in to seal it. It also kept the lead
from leaking into the pipe.

That's my recollection anyway.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

Oakum is coarse, it is nothing like lampwick, which is like super fine
thread.