Hello,

I have been unable to figure out problem with Dynasty DX 200 Tig setup.
The tungsten electrode is melting with DCEN with home shop power of
230VAC, but when I move the whole setup to professional metal shop with
208VAC it works great. Why the difference? The guy (tons of experience
with TIG) who runs the metal shop agreed to help me test the setup.

The 230VAC at home shop is connected to circuit panel via about 100
feet of 10 gauge wire. It seems to work better in another part of home
shop with 50amp service for ARC welder. Why would different power
connections make the tungsten electrode melt? It happens within a few
seconds of welding too.

Thanks,

Luds

I double checked the gas flow, water flow, etc. It only seems to happen
when I have it at my home shop. I measure the voltage, and its was
232VAC (w/ load) so this should be fine. I don't understand how this
happens.

Thanks,

Luds

Luds wrote:
Hello,

I have been unable to figure out problem with Dynasty DX 200 Tig setup.
The tungsten electrode is melting with DCEN with home shop power of
230VAC, but when I move the whole setup to professional metal shop with
208VAC it works great. Why the difference? The guy (tons of experience
with TIG) who runs the metal shop agreed to help me test the setup.

The 230VAC at home shop is connected to circuit panel via about 100
feet of 10 gauge wire. It seems to work better in another part of home
shop with 50amp service for ARC welder. Why would different power
connections make the tungsten electrode melt? It happens within a few
seconds of welding too.
10 Gauge? That sounds quite light for what I'm guessing is a 200 A
TIG machine. It seems counter-intuitive, but the long, smaller size
wire may be severely reducing line voltage when the welder is running.
You might connect a voltmeter to the line as close to the welder as
possible, and have somebody read it while you strike an arc. The
low line voltage may be causing the control logic to fail, and the
current becomes unregulated. That would melt your electrode, as well
as possibly damaging the torch cable and welder.

Does this welder have adjustable taps inside for low and high line
voltages? many have different taps for 208 and 230.

(This is all a guess, not being able to see the setup.)

Jon

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 00:20:51 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Luds wrote:
Hello,

I have been unable to figure out problem with Dynasty DX 200 Tig setup.
The tungsten electrode is melting with DCEN with home shop power of
230VAC, but when I move the whole setup to professional metal shop with
208VAC it works great. Why the difference? The guy (tons of experience
with TIG) who runs the metal shop agreed to help me test the setup.

The 230VAC at home shop is connected to circuit panel via about 100
feet of 10 gauge wire. It seems to work better in another part of home
shop with 50amp service for ARC welder. Why would different power
connections make the tungsten electrode melt? It happens within a few
seconds of welding too.
10 Gauge? That sounds quite light for what I'm guessing is a 200 A
TIG machine. It seems counter-intuitive, but the long, smaller size
wire may be severely reducing line voltage when the welder is running.
You might connect a voltmeter to the line as close to the welder as
possible, and have somebody read it while you strike an arc. The
low line voltage may be causing the control logic to fail, and the
current becomes unregulated. That would melt your electrode, as well
as possibly damaging the torch cable and welder.

Does this welder have adjustable taps inside for low and high line
voltages? many have different taps for 208 and 230.

(This is all a guess, not being able to see the setup.)

Jon

There are no taps. It's autosensing, anything from 110V (reduced max
output) to 460V 3 ph. I've just run mine on 110V, haven't seen
anything like this, but then I haven't done much tig with it yet. Let
us know what you find out.

Pete Keillor

Luds,
Your feed wire is too small. It needs to be at least 6 guage to maintain
230 under load for a 100 foot run. Down grade your breaker to 30 Amps or
upgrade the wire. This is a fire waiting to happen.
Michelle

Luds wrote:

Hello,

I have been unable to figure out problem with Dynasty DX 200 Tig setup.
The tungsten electrode is melting with DCEN with home shop power of
230VAC, but when I move the whole setup to professional metal shop with
208VAC it works great. Why the difference? The guy (tons of experience
with TIG) who runs the metal shop agreed to help me test the setup.

The 230VAC at home shop is connected to circuit panel via about 100
feet of 10 gauge wire. It seems to work better in another part of home
shop with 50amp service for ARC welder. Why would different power
connections make the tungsten electrode melt? It happens within a few
seconds of welding too.

Thanks,

Luds

I have 2 different services. One for 50amp (50amp breaker) with 6 or
4AWG wiring and the other for 30amp (30amp breaker) with 10AWG. Tried
it again on the 50amp line, and its seems to work better on the 50amp.
On the 30amp the tungsten just balls up after a few seconds. I'll have
to replace the wiring with on the 30amp since its a long run. Welder
worked great on the welding shop service.

Thanks.

On 13 Nov 2005 15:56:02 -0800, "Luds" wrote:

I have 2 different services. One for 50amp (50amp breaker) with 6 or
4AWG wiring and the other for 30amp (30amp breaker) with 10AWG. Tried
it again on the 50amp line, and its seems to work better on the 50amp.
On the 30amp the tungsten just balls up after a few seconds. I'll have
to replace the wiring with on the 30amp since its a long run. Welder
worked great on the welding shop service.

Thanks.

Voltage drop will bite you really fast. Especially when welding,
because there are many swings from almost no load to full load.

If you are going farther than 10 feet, throw out the NEC wire charts
and go at least one, if not two, sizes bigger. If you want to do it
right, sit down with the voltage drop charts and figure out how
oversized you need to go.

It can sound like overkill to use #2 wire for a very long 20A 120V
or 208/240V circuit, but if you do it on #12 you'll end up with
something scary like 85V or 160V at the other end. This is not good
for the equipment.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Thanks for all the replies. Almost sure its wiring issue now based on
replies and testing. So will replace with thicker wiring. I'll have to
find a place that sells #2.

Luds

On 14 Nov 2005 19:37:41 -0800, "Luds" wrote:

Thanks for all the replies. Almost sure its wiring issue now based on
replies and testing. So will replace with thicker wiring. I'll have to
find a place that sells #2.

Luds

Whoa, Nelly!! Stop right there! Before you just run out and buy a
bunch of #2 THHN wire or #2-3 Romex cable on a whim, that might be
extreme overkill for a 10-foot run - or nowhere big enough for 1,000
feet - and on the advice of someone who has never seen the job...

Exactly how does the power get from the power pole to the welder?
There are a LOT of variables to consider...

Is the garage attached or detached?

What size and type main service panel on the house - brand, breaker or
fused main, breaker or fused branch circuits, and how old is it?

How far from the utility feed pole or handhole? Aerial or
underground? What size cables, if you can tell?

What other big loads do you have? Central air, heat pump or
resistance heat, electric dryer, electric water heater, electric
baseboard heat, electric range or oven, pool, sauna...

Is there a sub-panel for the garage, and what size and type?

Is the garage sub-panel feed aerial or underground?

What size conduit? How long? What gauge wires, and CU or AL?

What stuff do you plan to run in the garage now, and in the
foreseeable future?

You need to make sure the house main panel is up to it, and if it's
a detached garage (or attached but at the other end of a big house)
the power feed out there and the sub-panel have to be big enough for
the task, too. The wire from the breaker panel to the welder outlet
is just the last link in the chain.

If I read the clues you gave correctly your garage is attached and
100' away from your Main power panel at the other end of the house.
You really need to run much heavier wires across and place a breaker
sub-panel in your garage for the shop tools, let's say 100 Amps for
discussion. That way you spend a bit more now, but you don't have to
do it again later when you add more tools and the shop load grows, and
I can Guarantee you that it will. Tools are like a fungus, they grow
on you... ;-P

Other advantages are you only walk 10' to reset a tripped breaker,
you don't fill up all the spare spaces in the main panel with shop
circuits, and you don't have to keep running up in the attic pulling
those new wires across.

If this sounds like a bunch of Greek, do us both a favor and call a
local electrician to come look things over at your house. Won't cost
you much to get an educated opinion, and it could save you a LOT.

(And I don't have to worry about you going off half-cocked and
getting hurt, or burning down your house.)

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:29:57 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:


If this sounds like a bunch of Greek, do us both a favor and call a
local electrician to come look things over at your house. Won't cost
you much to get an educated opinion, and it could save you a LOT.

(And I don't have to worry about you going off half-cocked and
getting hurt, or burning down your house.)

-- Bruce --

Listen to Bruce..he is very very sharp and knows the subject well.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Thanks for the replies. What wire is recommended, 4 4 4 SEU or 6-2? The
run is just under 100 feet. the 4 4 4 SEU is expensive at $2.90/foot,
the 6-2 is 1.80/foot.

Thanks,

Luds

On 19 Nov 2005 18:20:39 -0800, "Luds" wrote:

Thanks for the replies. What wire is recommended, 4 4 4 SEU or 6-2? The
run is just under 100 feet. the 4 4 4 SEU is expensive at $2.90/foot,
the 6-2 is 1.80/foot.

SEU cable is made special for service entrance, and they'll charge
more for it. Just use normal NM cable.

And since they charge by the foot and cut it off a big roll, run a
tape measure or a rope through the attic first and get the exact
length you'll need - then add 6' to 10' for makeup and mistakes. 2 to
3 feet of stripped sheath at the panel end, 8" to 1' at the receptacle
end, and the balance of the slack left in the attic for any "Oopsies"
that may come up....

As in "I've cut the cable three times, and it's still too short."
Rope stretches, wire does not.

If this is for a 50A 220V welder outlet in the garage, and you're
going through a normal attic of a house to get there, use regular
Copper NM Romex. I'd use 6-3+ground Copper NM cable ("Romex") for the
run, if it's much over 100 feet go up a notch to 4-3+g to lessen the
voltage drop. Use a 4-pin receptacle like they use for new ranges in
the garage, and connect the neutral at both ends.

You don't need the separate neutral wire now for the welder, but you
may well come up with another use for the line later that requires a
neutral, and it will already be there and in the box ready to go.
Like hooking up a Spider Box to get extra temporary 120V receptacles
for a party, or turning it into a real shop sub-panel.

The code is strict, no neutral loads on the safety ground wire at
all, no matter how small - and for a new line you can't use the 'old
house grandfathering' clause they allow for old clothes dryer and
range lines. Might cost you another $10 for the third wire, but it's
cheap insurance.

I avoid Aluminum wire at all costs - the material savings aren't
worth the bother with treating the connections. If you have to redo
it later those savings just disappeared, and then some. Copper is
'install and forget', the odds of problems are infinitesimally low.

And if you come out of the house attic and the NM cable would be
exposed in the garage where you come down the wall to the welder
receptacle, you need to either thread it through the wall and drywall
over it like normal, or put the cable inside a chunk of flex or EMT
conduit for physical protection of the cable. Use a box connector at
both ends of the flex, the one hanging loose in the attic end to act
as a bushing.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Bruce,

Thanks for all the information! I'll use the 6-3 for the line to my
shop. The line to my garage for the ARC welder is already installed
using the 4 4 4 SEU, and hopefully this was the correct wire to use. It
works good with the ARC welder and TIG welder. I looked at the existing
wire to my shop that I am having problems with on the TIG. Its a 20amp
circuit (breaker) running 10 AWG from the electrical panel to the shop
(65 feet), then 12 AWG from a box to 4 220VAC outlets each about 25
feet. So instead of changing this setup, I'll run an new line of 6-3
per your recommendation from the circuit breaker to the TIG welder in
my shop. Unfortunately, its the longest run about 100 feet.

Luds