Ok. People in a previous thread have kindly beat me up and suggested I look
for alternatives to a new RF30 mill. I know very little (nothing, really)
about what exists in the used machine tool world. I'm an
automotive/racing/motorcycling hobbyist that needs a benchtop sized mill for
fabbing brackets, component mounts, and a whole bunch of stuff I'm sure I'll
think of once I get a mill. I have a very limited garage (maybe 200 square
feet) into which this must fit along with a bunch of other tools and a car.

My question is: what models of mills should I be looking for? I'm looking
for used equipment of a size and price similar to a new RF30 ($1,000 to
$1,500 without tooling). Also, who are the trustworthy dealers out there?
IOW, if I can't find what I'm looking for locally, is there a dealer who I
can call that will give me the straight scoop on something I can buy sight
unseen. Even knowing nothing about mills, but having - I think - good
mechanical intuitiveness, buying sight unseen makes me nervous... One
poster suggested a Centec mill and it looks cool but I can't find one for
sale in the States.

Thanks,

Peter

OK, here ya go. Watch this NG until you see a posting by a guy named
"Gunner". Infer his email address. Email Gunner and make a deal with
him for one of his nice small knee mills. Pay the big bucks and have
it shipped. Voila.

Or else go buy an RF-45 from Penn Tool Company. Assuming you're on
the East Coast. (Come to think of it, you didn't actually *say* where
you are - this is something you should provide IMHO.)

There!

Grant Erwin

Peter Grey wrote:

Ok. People in a previous thread have kindly beat me up and suggested I look
for alternatives to a new RF30 mill. I know very little (nothing, really)
about what exists in the used machine tool world. I'm an
automotive/racing/motorcycling hobbyist that needs a benchtop sized mill for
fabbing brackets, component mounts, and a whole bunch of stuff I'm sure I'll
think of once I get a mill. I have a very limited garage (maybe 200 square
feet) into which this must fit along with a bunch of other tools and a car.

My question is: what models of mills should I be looking for? I'm looking
for used equipment of a size and price similar to a new RF30 ($1,000 to
$1,500 without tooling). Also, who are the trustworthy dealers out there?
IOW, if I can't find what I'm looking for locally, is there a dealer who I
can call that will give me the straight scoop on something I can buy sight
unseen. Even knowing nothing about mills, but having - I think - good
mechanical intuitiveness, buying sight unseen makes me nervous... One
poster suggested a Centec mill and it looks cool but I can't find one for
sale in the States.

Thanks,

Peter

You're right... I'm in San Francisco.

The RF45 is the "Top Tech Geared Head Mill/Drill Dovetail Column", yes?
Penn Tool's is the first of these I've seen with the dovetail. Anybody else
sell this model with the dovetail?

Peter

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
OK, here ya go. Watch this NG until you see a posting by a guy named
"Gunner". Infer his email address. Email Gunner and make a deal with
him for one of his nice small knee mills. Pay the big bucks and have
it shipped. Voila.

Or else go buy an RF-45 from Penn Tool Company. Assuming you're on
the East Coast. (Come to think of it, you didn't actually *say* where
you are - this is something you should provide IMHO.)

There!

Grant Erwin

Peter Grey wrote:

Ok. People in a previous thread have kindly beat me up and suggested I
look
for alternatives to a new RF30 mill. I know very little (nothing,
really)
about what exists in the used machine tool world. I'm an
automotive/racing/motorcycling hobbyist that needs a benchtop sized mill
for
fabbing brackets, component mounts, and a whole bunch of stuff I'm sure
I'll
think of once I get a mill. I have a very limited garage (maybe 200
square
feet) into which this must fit along with a bunch of other tools and a
car.

My question is: what models of mills should I be looking for? I'm
looking
for used equipment of a size and price similar to a new RF30 ($1,000 to
$1,500 without tooling). Also, who are the trustworthy dealers out
there?
IOW, if I can't find what I'm looking for locally, is there a dealer who
I
can call that will give me the straight scoop on something I can buy
sight
unseen. Even knowing nothing about mills, but having - I think - good
mechanical intuitiveness, buying sight unseen makes me nervous... One
poster suggested a Centec mill and it looks cool but I can't find one
for
sale in the States.

Thanks,

Peter

This is an old rcm posting, might still work:

"You can find their web site at www.rongfu.com This contact will go
direct to Taiwan, they in turn will refer you to Freddie @
1-626-579-9696
C.P. Machine Tools Inc.
10925 So. El Monte Calif. 91733"

Also,

"This machine is available from Thomas Skinner & Sons, in
Vancouver B.C.
13880 Vulcan Way; Richmond BC
(604) 276-2131"

Best I can do, good luck!

Grant Erwin

Peter Grey wrote:
You're right... I'm in San Francisco.

The RF45 is the "Top Tech Geared Head Mill/Drill Dovetail Column", yes?
Penn Tool's is the first of these I've seen with the dovetail. Anybody else
sell this model with the dovetail?

Peter

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...

OK, here ya go. Watch this NG until you see a posting by a guy named
"Gunner". Infer his email address. Email Gunner and make a deal with
him for one of his nice small knee mills. Pay the big bucks and have
it shipped. Voila.

Or else go buy an RF-45 from Penn Tool Company. Assuming you're on
the East Coast. (Come to think of it, you didn't actually *say* where
you are - this is something you should provide IMHO.)

There!

Grant Erwin

Peter Grey wrote:


Ok. People in a previous thread have kindly beat me up and suggested I

look

for alternatives to a new RF30 mill. I know very little (nothing,

really)

about what exists in the used machine tool world. I'm an
automotive/racing/motorcycling hobbyist that needs a benchtop sized mill

for

fabbing brackets, component mounts, and a whole bunch of stuff I'm sure

I'll

think of once I get a mill. I have a very limited garage (maybe 200

square

feet) into which this must fit along with a bunch of other tools and a

car.

My question is: what models of mills should I be looking for? I'm

looking

for used equipment of a size and price similar to a new RF30 ($1,000 to
$1,500 without tooling). Also, who are the trustworthy dealers out

there?

IOW, if I can't find what I'm looking for locally, is there a dealer who

I

can call that will give me the straight scoop on something I can buy

sight

unseen. Even knowing nothing about mills, but having - I think - good
mechanical intuitiveness, buying sight unseen makes me nervous... One
poster suggested a Centec mill and it looks cool but I can't find one

for

sale in the States.

Thanks,

Peter

Come to think of it... What do you think of the "Top Tech Bench Knee Mill"
sold by Penn Tools?

Peter
"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
OK, here ya go. Watch this NG until you see a posting by a guy named
"Gunner". Infer his email address. Email Gunner and make a deal with
him for one of his nice small knee mills. Pay the big bucks and have
it shipped. Voila.

Or else go buy an RF-45 from Penn Tool Company. Assuming you're on
the East Coast. (Come to think of it, you didn't actually *say* where
you are - this is something you should provide IMHO.)

There!

Grant Erwin

Peter Grey wrote:

Ok. People in a previous thread have kindly beat me up and suggested I
look
for alternatives to a new RF30 mill. I know very little (nothing,
really)
about what exists in the used machine tool world. I'm an
automotive/racing/motorcycling hobbyist that needs a benchtop sized mill
for
fabbing brackets, component mounts, and a whole bunch of stuff I'm sure
I'll
think of once I get a mill. I have a very limited garage (maybe 200
square
feet) into which this must fit along with a bunch of other tools and a
car.

My question is: what models of mills should I be looking for? I'm
looking
for used equipment of a size and price similar to a new RF30 ($1,000 to
$1,500 without tooling). Also, who are the trustworthy dealers out
there?
IOW, if I can't find what I'm looking for locally, is there a dealer who
I
can call that will give me the straight scoop on something I can buy
sight
unseen. Even knowing nothing about mills, but having - I think - good
mechanical intuitiveness, buying sight unseen makes me nervous... One
poster suggested a Centec mill and it looks cool but I can't find one
for
sale in the States.

Thanks,

Peter

In article , Grant Erwin says...

OK, here ya go. Watch this NG until you see a posting by a guy named
"Gunner". Infer his email address.

Hmm. Impute? Decode? Decipher?
I think gunner is the one doing the inferring
here. Or is that implied?

Or else go buy an RF-45 from Penn Tool Company. Assuming you're on
the East Coast. (Come to think of it, you didn't actually *say* where
you are - this is something you should provide IMHO.)

SF, Ca is what he replied to my identical question.

So sobels, dave ficken, etc, are right out.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

With great certainty, Gunner implies his email, and readers infer it. - GWE

jim rozen wrote:

In article , Grant Erwin says...


OK, here ya go. Watch this NG until you see a posting by a guy named
"Gunner". Infer his email address.


Hmm. Impute? Decode? Decipher?
I think gunner is the one doing the inferring
here. Or is that implied?


Or else go buy an RF-45 from Penn Tool Company. Assuming you're on
the East Coast. (Come to think of it, you didn't actually *say* where
you are - this is something you should provide IMHO.)


SF, Ca is what he replied to my identical question.

So sobels, dave ficken, etc, are right out.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 16:44:49 +0000, Peter Grey wrote:

My question is: what models of mills should I be looking for? I'm looking
for used equipment of a size and price similar to a new RF30 ($1,000 to
$1,500 without tooling).

Before I bought the miller that I have (my first miller) I thought I'd need
a vertical miller. There are a number of makes of vertical miller out there
but they are generally all very tall (7 to 8 feet tall). One of my criteria
was compact size. I finally bought a horizontal miller, which generally are
much shorter (mine is roughly 4 1/2 feet tall). I had thought that a
horizontal miller wouldn't be versatile enough, but I was quite wrong. I
have an accessory vertical head for it but I've only used it once, and
actually got better results without it. A horizontal mill can be used pretty
much like a vertical mill if you clamp your work on an angle plate. You don't
have the convenience of a quill down feed (like on a drill press) and you have
to think a bit sideways (which becomes second nature in no time). I'm told
that the particular miller that I have, although less than half the size of
a Bridgeport class machine, can take much heavier cuts than one, and I believe
it now after using the vertical head and an end mill. Another advantage to
a horizontal miller which doesn't get mentioned too often, is that the cutters
have many more cutting surfaces than an equivalent end mill, and so the axiom
of "Many hands make light work" comes into play, in this case in the form of
reduced wear on your cutters. It's easier for the home shop machinist to sharpen
plain milling cutters than it is to sharpen end mills, the latter usually needing
to be sent out to a pro.

I'm sure you'd be surprised at what you can do with a small used horizontal miller.
Some brands are, Atlas (probably the most common), Benchmaster (a very small bench
mounted job -- good luck at finding one), South Bend made a horizontal miller at
one time though I've never seen one come up for sale. Mine is a Hardinge. Nichols
is another brand. Van Norman's are beautiful machines that can operate in both
horizontal and vertical mode by means of a retractable/swivelling head (they're
kind of on the big side though). Those are just off the top of my head.

There is an ebay seller called Reliable Tools which from all appearances seems
to be a very reputable used machinery dealer (I've never dealt with them, however)
who is located in Irwindale (and has a showroom where you can see some of the
stuff under power). In fact, I just went to ebay to get their address for you
and I ran across this cute little miller:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2571756427&category=12 584

I'm not familiar with these millers but from the looks of the photos it seems that
the cabinet is not absolutely necessary and the machine could be bolted to a benchtop
if you're really hurting for space.

Good luck.

Artemia,

Thank you for your response and the work that went into it. This is big
help.

That IS a pretty cute little mill to which you've linked...

Peter
"Artemia Salina" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 16:44:49 +0000, Peter Grey wrote:

My question is: what models of mills should I be looking for? I'm
looking
for used equipment of a size and price similar to a new RF30 ($1,000 to
$1,500 without tooling).

Before I bought the miller that I have (my first miller) I thought I'd
need
a vertical miller. There are a number of makes of vertical miller out
there
but they are generally all very tall (7 to 8 feet tall). One of my
criteria
was compact size. I finally bought a horizontal miller, which generally
are
much shorter (mine is roughly 4 1/2 feet tall). I had thought that a
horizontal miller wouldn't be versatile enough, but I was quite wrong. I
have an accessory vertical head for it but I've only used it once, and
actually got better results without it. A horizontal mill can be used
pretty
much like a vertical mill if you clamp your work on an angle plate. You
don't
have the convenience of a quill down feed (like on a drill press) and you
have
to think a bit sideways (which becomes second nature in no time). I'm told
that the particular miller that I have, although less than half the size
of
a Bridgeport class machine, can take much heavier cuts than one, and I
believe
it now after using the vertical head and an end mill. Another advantage to
a horizontal miller which doesn't get mentioned too often, is that the
cutters
have many more cutting surfaces than an equivalent end mill, and so the
axiom
of "Many hands make light work" comes into play, in this case in the form
of
reduced wear on your cutters. It's easier for the home shop machinist to
sharpen
plain milling cutters than it is to sharpen end mills, the latter usually
needing
to be sent out to a pro.

I'm sure you'd be surprised at what you can do with a small used
horizontal miller.
Some brands are, Atlas (probably the most common), Benchmaster (a very
small bench
mounted job -- good luck at finding one), South Bend made a horizontal
miller at
one time though I've never seen one come up for sale. Mine is a Hardinge.
Nichols
is another brand. Van Norman's are beautiful machines that can operate in
both
horizontal and vertical mode by means of a retractable/swivelling head
(they're
kind of on the big side though). Those are just off the top of my head.

There is an ebay seller called Reliable Tools which from all appearances
seems
to be a very reputable used machinery dealer (I've never dealt with them,
however)
who is located in Irwindale (and has a showroom where you can see some of
the
stuff under power). In fact, I just went to ebay to get their address for
you
and I ran across this cute little miller:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ategory=12 58
4

I'm not familiar with these millers but from the looks of the photos it
seems that
the cabinet is not absolutely necessary and the machine could be bolted to
a benchtop
if you're really hurting for space.

Good luck.

"Artemia Salina" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 16:44:49 +0000, Peter Grey wrote:

My question is: what models of mills should I be looking for? I'm
looking
for used equipment of a size and price similar to a new RF30 ($1,000 to
$1,500 without tooling).

Before I bought the miller that I have (my first miller) I thought I'd
need
a vertical miller. There are a number of makes of vertical miller out
there
but they are generally all very tall (7 to 8 feet tall). One of my
criteria
was compact size. I finally bought a horizontal miller, which generally
are
much shorter (mine is roughly 4 1/2 feet tall). I had thought that a
horizontal miller wouldn't be versatile enough, but I was quite wrong. I
have an accessory vertical head for it but I've only used it once, and
actually got better results without it. A horizontal mill can be used
pretty
much like a vertical mill if you clamp your work on an angle plate. You
don't
have the convenience of a quill down feed (like on a drill press) and you
have
to think a bit sideways (which becomes second nature in no time). I'm told
that the particular miller that I have, although less than half the size
of
a Bridgeport class machine, can take much heavier cuts than one, and I
believe
it now after using the vertical head and an end mill. Another advantage to
a horizontal miller which doesn't get mentioned too often, is that the
cutters
have many more cutting surfaces than an equivalent end mill, and so the
axiom
of "Many hands make light work" comes into play, in this case in the form
of
reduced wear on your cutters. It's easier for the home shop machinist to
sharpen
plain milling cutters than it is to sharpen end mills, the latter usually
needing
to be sent out to a pro.

I'm sure you'd be surprised at what you can do with a small used
horizontal miller.
Some brands are, Atlas (probably the most common), Benchmaster (a very
small bench
mounted job -- good luck at finding one), South Bend made a horizontal
miller at
one time though I've never seen one come up for sale. Mine is a Hardinge.
Nichols
is another brand. Van Norman's are beautiful machines that can operate in
both
horizontal and vertical mode by means of a retractable/swivelling head
(they're
kind of on the big side though). Those are just off the top of my head.

There is an ebay seller called Reliable Tools which from all appearances
seems
to be a very reputable used machinery dealer (I've never dealt with them,
however)
who is located in Irwindale (and has a showroom where you can see some of
the
stuff under power). In fact, I just went to ebay to get their address for
you
and I ran across this cute little miller:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ategory=12 58
4

I'm not familiar with these millers but from the looks of the photos it
seems that
the cabinet is not absolutely necessary and the machine could be bolted to
a benchtop
if you're really hurting for space.

Good luck.

Or this one from the same seller:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=12 584

which is a Clausing 8520 knee mill. At least sort of - there have been some
modifications made that suggest it would need looking at before bidding, or
at least agreement that you could back out if it was not up to snuff.
Someone that looked at claimied that it does not appear as good in person as
the pictures would suggest.

In article , Mike Henry says...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=12 584

which is a Clausing 8520 knee mill. At least sort of - there have been some
modifications made that suggest it would need looking at before bidding, or
at least agreement that you could back out if it was not up to snuff.
Someone that looked at claimied that it does not appear as good in person as
the pictures would suggest.

Umm. The garage door spring on the quill return is a bit ugly.
But the real downside for this machiine is the speed range - if
you look the slowest speed is 1000 rpm.

As an example, the back gears in a brigeport go down to about
100 rpm. Without back gears this machine will not be too useful
for doing large stuff.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Mike Henry says...


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ategory=12 58
4

which is a Clausing 8520 knee mill. At least sort of - there have been
some
modifications made that suggest it would need looking at before bidding,
or
at least agreement that you could back out if it was not up to snuff.
Someone that looked at claimied that it does not appear as good in person
as
the pictures would suggest.

Umm. The garage door spring on the quill return is a bit ugly.
But the real downside for this machiine is the speed range - if
you look the slowest speed is 1000 rpm.

As an example, the back gears in a brigeport go down to about
100 rpm. Without back gears this machine will not be too useful
for doing large stuff.

I wondered about that. The UK lathes site showed that that model should
have three more speeds lower than 1000 RPM - I think down to 180 RPM. I
wonder if this is a different model or if something's not working or
missing.

Peter

"Mike Henry" wrote in message
...

which is a Clausing 8520 knee mill. At least sort of - there have been
some
modifications made that suggest it would need looking at before bidding,
or
at least agreement that you could back out if it was not up to snuff.
Someone that looked at claimied that it does not appear as good in person
as
the pictures would suggest.

I was looking at this one. What mods have been made?

Peter

"Peter Grey" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Mike Henry" wrote in message
...

which is a Clausing 8520 knee mill. At least sort of - there have been
some
modifications made that suggest it would need looking at before bidding,
or
at least agreement that you could back out if it was not up to snuff.
Someone that looked at claimied that it does not appear as good in
person
as
the pictures would suggest.

I was looking at this one. What mods have been made?

Peter

As mentioned elsewhere the return spring is definitely cobbled. It also
seems to be missing the 3rd pulley, which would extend the speed range from
180 to 3,200 rpm, at least assuming that the two existing pulleys are stock.
There is evidence of repairs or maybe hard use (the acorn nut on the Y-axis
screw is not standard and one wonders how that got lost) and it is missing
the fine feed handle for the spindle. It looks like it has one tool holder
and no collets (it came with 7 MT2, 18/" to 1/2"). FWIW, my 8520 is S/N
5664 and was inspected in March 1966 so it looks like this one is quite a
bit older, but I've no idea how much older.

There might be other problems, at least according to somone who got a quick
look at it. That's just hearsay, though, and I don't know the guy that
looked at it. At a wild guess it looks to me like it's priced at about it's
value right now, but Reliable auctions often go through the roof at auction
end.

Reliable is said to be honest and I've bought from them with no problems, so
if you are interested you might want to call them and see if they will give
you an honest appraisal. Look at it if you are nearby. If not and you are
close enough to pick it up in person, see if they still offer a money-back
guarantee (looks like they do). I figure it's a nice gesture to offer to
pay the Ebay fees if you are high bidder and they'll let you decline it on
inpsection. Shipping weight would run to 700 lbs or more

FWIW, Clausing specified 0.0002" runout on the spindle so that will give you
at least one thing to check out if you inspect it. Mine has around 0.005"
backlash on the X- and Y-axes which is pretty good for a machine this old.

Mike

In article , Artemia Salina
says...

...Another advantage to
a horizontal miller which doesn't get mentioned too often, is that the cutters
have many more cutting surfaces than an equivalent end mill, and so the axiom
of "Many hands make light work" comes into play, in this case in the form of
reduced wear on your cutters. It's easier for the home shop machinist to sharpen
plain milling cutters than it is to sharpen end mills, the latter usually
needing to be sent out to a pro.

While this is of course true, there is no reason that end mills
cannot be run on machines like this - and 90% of my work is
done this way.

Other advantages of those hardinge horizontals, is they can
be used a a large gap bed lathe for turning items too big
to fit in a small shop lathe. I've chucked up entire
mtorocycle wheels in mine to skim the brake drums, no need
to unlace them.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 16:44:49 GMT, "Peter Grey" wrote:
My question is: what models of mills should I be looking for? I'm looking
for used equipment of a size and price similar to a new RF30 ($1,000 to
$1,500 without tooling). Also, who are the trustworthy dealers out there?

There are several people who frequent this newsgroup who I'd buy from
in a heartbeat. I won't name names, but stay here a while and you'll get
to know them. Buying one on one like that is often the best way to buy.
Someone else will have to help you with commercial dealer names and
reputations in your area, I'm on the other side of the country.

IOW, if I can't find what I'm looking for locally, is there a dealer who I
can call that will give me the straight scoop on something I can buy sight
unseen. Even knowing nothing about mills, but having - I think - good
mechanical intuitiveness, buying sight unseen makes me nervous... One
poster suggested a Centec mill and it looks cool but I can't find one for
sale in the States.

Mills are heavy beasts, and in general, the heavier they are, the better
they'll work (and ironically, often the heavier they are, the cheaper they
are, because of the large relocation costs). Shipping costs can often
make or break a deal. It is often worth it to pay a bit more to buy local
just for this reason.

For used equipment particularly, it almost always pays to examine the
machine in person before you buy. There are so many things that can
be wrong with a used piece of equipment, you want to know before
paying that big freight bill. Even if the dealer is good, and will accept
a return, you're still stuck with a large freight bill (both ways).

Note too that an honest dealer can have an honestly different opinion
of the condition of a machine than you do. Things he might consider
no big deal might be heartbreakers to you. Hidden defects that he
might not have caught in a visual inspection can also rare up and
bite you in the wallet. He might have the necessary repair parts, he
might not. (Often as not, the company who made the machine is
no longer in business, or no longer supports that model.)

If possible, see the machine run, check all its features to make sure
the ones essential to your tasks work. Check for wear in critical areas
(know what the critical areas *are*). Etc. And remember, the machine
won't look nearly as large in the dealer's warehouse as it will in your
small garage. Take a tape measure, make sure you know just how big
it really is, and how much open space you need around it to run it.
(Don't slight the latter, if you can't get around the machine, you can't
run it or service it. Remember how heavy these machines are, once
you set it in place, it is *there* for the duration.)

Go he http://www.lathes.co.uk/page21.html to do your homework
before going to see a machine. This is the most comprehensive list
of machine tools on the web. Also haunt ebay. That'll at least give
you an idea of the going price for various machines. (I'm a bit
hesitant to actually *buy* a big ticket item on ebay unless the seller
is local and I can do an inspection, but it is a good place to get the
feel of the market.)

There's also a good series of web articles on buying a used lathe
which would also largely apply to buying a used mill. I can't remember
the URL off hand, but I think it is on Dave Fricken's site. Perhaps
someone else can provide a pointer.

One of the points made in those articles is that someone else's
clunker may be just the machine you need. Or conversely, what
someone else considers a machine in good shape may be a
clunker to you. Only you can determine which is which, and you
need to be educated to the qualities of the machine which apply
to the tasks to which you'll put the machine in order to make
that determination.

(In other words, some qualities of a machine are important to
a particular set of tasks. For a different sort of task, different
qualities are important. You have to determine if the machine
you're examining has the qualities you need, and any other
qualities you don't need can then be derated accordingly.)

That probably means you need to read some books on the
fundamentals of machining, ask some questions here, and
in general find out a lot more about how and why things are
done before spending a big chunk of change (don't forget
shipping) on some heavy iron.

A machining class, if it uses the type of machine you're
considering, might also be a worthwhile investment. But
with most such classes today heavily weighted toward
operating CNC machining centers, you might have some
difficulty finding the right sort of class to attend. You
might do better joining a local hobby club and partner
up with one of the more experienced members who can
give you some practical hands on with his machines.

Gary

In article , Gary Coffman says...

There's also a good series of web articles on buying a used lathe
which would also largely apply to buying a used mill. I can't remember
the URL off hand, but I think it is on Dave Fricken's site. Perhaps
someone else can provide a pointer.

Oh right, I should have mentioned this:

http://www.mermac.com/
http://www.mermac.com/freemill.html
http://www.mermac.com/advice.html

While machines like this are large, they can be
moved around without too much trouble. I've
shifted my small hardinge with nothing but a single
pinch bar.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

I was just printing these off as you wrote this! Thanks,

Peter
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Gary Coffman
says...

There's also a good series of web articles on buying a used lathe
which would also largely apply to buying a used mill. I can't remember
the URL off hand, but I think it is on Dave Fricken's site. Perhaps
someone else can provide a pointer.

Oh right, I should have mentioned this:

http://www.mermac.com/
http://www.mermac.com/freemill.html
http://www.mermac.com/advice.html

While machines like this are large, they can be
moved around without too much trouble. I've
shifted my small hardinge with nothing but a single
pinch bar.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Thank you.

Peter

Peter Grey wrote:

Ok. People in a previous thread have kindly beat me up and suggested I look
for alternatives to a new RF30 mill. I know very little (nothing, really)
about what exists in the used machine tool world. I'm an
automotive/racing/motorcycling hobbyist that needs a benchtop sized mill for
fabbing brackets, component mounts, and a whole bunch of stuff I'm sure I'll
think of once I get a mill. I have a very limited garage (maybe 200 square
feet) into which this must fit along with a bunch of other tools and a car.

My question is: what models of mills should I be looking for? I'm looking
for used equipment of a size and price similar to a new RF30 ($1,000 to
$1,500 without tooling). Also, who are the trustworthy dealers out there?
IOW, if I can't find what I'm looking for locally, is there a dealer who I
can call that will give me the straight scoop on something I can buy sight
unseen. Even knowing nothing about mills, but having - I think - good
mechanical intuitiveness, buying sight unseen makes me nervous... One
poster suggested a Centec mill and it looks cool but I can't find one for
sale in the States.

Thanks,

Peter

OK, this is going to look a bit funny, but, here goes.

You want to make brackets and stuff for your projects. No NASA
contracts, no defense industry prototypes. Nothing too critical. No
tolerances to a half-zillionth.

Buy the RF-30.

Get one with a R-8 spindle, rather than Morse taper. Mill tooling is
MUCH cheaper in R-8, and much more common. Think Ebay and machine tool
dealers. Morse taper stuff other than drills is not common.
If you can find a supplier that stocks the RF-30 with the taller
column, buy that. The extra couple bucks will get you lots more space to
use when you need. The rest of the time, it won't be in the way.

For a metalworker that will generally be laying out his lines directly
on the stock, and cutting to a line, these are a GREAT bargain. They are
a darn useful tool that doubles as a decent drill press (the extra
headroom, above, helps when using full length drills). This gives you
that much more space in the shop. (small enough space as it is).

I have a Centec 2A. It's a great little milling machine. In 500 lbs of
cast iron, and a steel stand, I get slightly more volume to work with
than if I had a sherline mill. It has MT-2 tapers (same as my lathes
tooling-makes for compatability) in it's vertical and horizontal
spindles. It has a power feed. Nice stuff. Not nearly what you will
want. All for more than it would have cost me to buy a new RF-30 and
tooling. It fills my needs (mostly) and I like it. I would not consider
it for what you are describing as your needs. In fact, as I STILL don't
have a decent drill press, I am still considering getting a RF-30 for
things larger than I can otherwise deal with, on the cheap. The Centec
2B is a bit larger, but not by an amount that you would appreciate.
I have used an RF-30 a lot. The inability to hold zero when raising and
lowering the head is not as much of a deal as you might think. It makes
good fodder for arguing over, though. Again, we are talking about
fabbing brackets and such for your projects, not building cylinder heads
from billet stock, right?

In my opinion, you will get more table space from an RF-30 than from
anything else you can afford, both in cash and space, without getting
very lucky. Of course, some of the best machine tool scrounges I've ever
heard of are in your neck of the woods. Luck might not be so hard to
find in this case. Still tough to beat the amount of capacity, for the
amount of shop space used for the RF-30.

The small and medium sizes of horizontal mill have smaller tables,
though they have their own advantages. The creativity required to deal
with problems on a horizontal mill are not a lot different from dealing
with the limitations of the mill drills. The small vertical mills all
seem to me to be limited to about 1/2" end mills, and really require a
lot more real estate than you seem to be able to afford. You can rarely
use the space in the base of a small mill for storage.

Anyway, that's my two bits worth.

In short, look at your "needs" at least as hard as you look at your
"wants".

Based on my experiences, I think that you will likely find what you
need in the RF-30 mill drill.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
...
big snip-----

Based on my experiences, I think that you will likely find what you
need in the RF-30 mill drill.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

That's a pretty convincing argument, Trevor! I agree, you have some good
points.

Harold

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
...
big snip-----

Based on my experiences, I think that you will likely find what you
need in the RF-30 mill drill.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

That's a pretty convincing argument, Trevor! I agree, you have some good
points.

Harold

Thanks Harold.

I liked the RF-30 I used (it belongs to a good friend of mine) and it
was plenty capable for what I was using it for. Sometimes it is best to
remember that a chalk line and a cutting torch may be the metal cutting
tool best suited. :-)

Cheers
Trevor Jones

"Trevor Jones" wrote in message for. Sometimes it
is best to
remember that a chalk line and a cutting torch may be the metal cutting
tool best suited. :-)


You casting aspersions on my design and fabrication skills?

Peter

Peter Grey wrote:

"Trevor Jones" wrote in message for. Sometimes it
is best to
remember that a chalk line and a cutting torch may be the metal cutting
tool best suited. :-)

You casting aspersions on my design and fabrication skills?

Peter

No, I'm saying that a guy that has a tolerance of plus or minus a 1/16
inch, has little need of a jig borer that is capable of holding a
tolerance in the millionths range.

Lot's of guys get lost in the "more accuracy" argument and dont't see
the 'accurate enough" side of things.

Not aimed at anyone in particular. :-)

Cheers
Trevor Jones

"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
...

OK, this is going to look a bit funny, but, here goes.

You want to make brackets and stuff for your projects. No NASA
contracts, no defense industry prototypes. Nothing too critical. No
tolerances to a half-zillionth.

Exactly.



For a metalworker that will generally be laying out his lines directly
on the stock, and cutting to a line, these are a GREAT bargain. They are
a darn useful tool that doubles as a decent drill press (the extra
headroom, above, helps when using full length drills). This gives you
that much more space in the shop. (small enough space as it is).

I'm assuming that the distance from the spindle to the table will tell me
whether it's long or short, yes? How much taller is the tall column?

I have a Centec 2A. It's a great little milling machine. In 500 lbs of
cast iron, and a steel stand, I get slightly more volume to work with
than if I had a sherline mill. It has MT-2 tapers (same as my lathes
tooling-makes for compatability) in it's vertical and horizontal
spindles. It has a power feed. Nice stuff. Not nearly what you will
want.

Not what I'd want because it's too small? IOW, it's very stiff but can't
work with pieces any bigger than I would with a mini-mill?

All for more than it would have cost me to buy a new RF-30 and
tooling. It fills my needs (mostly) and I like it. I would not consider
it for what you are describing as your needs. In fact, as I STILL don't
have a decent drill press, I am still considering getting a RF-30 for
things larger than I can otherwise deal with, on the cheap. The Centec
2B is a bit larger, but not by an amount that you would appreciate.
I have used an RF-30 a lot. The inability to hold zero when raising and
lowering the head is not as much of a deal as you might think. It makes
good fodder for arguing over, though. Again, we are talking about
fabbing brackets and such for your projects, not building cylinder heads
from billet stock, right?

Correct.

In my opinion, you will get more table space from an RF-30 than from
anything else you can afford, both in cash and space, without getting
very lucky. Of course, some of the best machine tool scrounges I've ever
heard of are in your neck of the woods. Luck might not be so hard to
find in this case. Still tough to beat the amount of capacity, for the
amount of shop space used for the RF-30.


I'm talking to one person on this board and will call some new and used
machine tool dealers today. If I can't find anything decent used and close
within a reasonable period of time, I'll go buy the RF 30 or maybe
(probably??) the Penn Tool drill/mill with the dovetail. It's $400 (plus
shipping) more than the round column model.

Anyway, that's my two bits worth.

In short, look at your "needs" at least as hard as you look at your
"wants".

Based on my experiences, I think that you will likely find what you
need in the RF-30 mill drill.

Thanks for your realistic response.

Peter

Peter Grey wrote:
(snippage)
I'm assuming that the distance from the spindle to the table will tell me
whether it's long or short, yes? How much taller is the tall column?

Off the top of my head, it was either 8 or 10 inches. The dealer that I
talked to at that time said that they sold them mainly to small machine
shops for use as drill presses. The extra colunm height allowed them to
use full length taper shank drills and still have reasonable work
capacity.

I have a Centec 2A. It's a great little milling machine. In 500 lbs of
cast iron, and a steel stand, I get slightly more volume to work with
than if I had a sherline mill. It has MT-2 tapers (same as my lathes
tooling-makes for compatability) in it's vertical and horizontal
spindles. It has a power feed. Nice stuff. Not nearly what you will
want.

Not what I'd want because it's too small? IOW, it's very stiff but can't
work with pieces any bigger than I would with a mini-mill?

It is quite small. It is nice quality. They stopped building them in in
the 60's. The table size and the lack of space under the tool are it's
real limitations. Whithin those limits, it's a great bit of kit, and I
have not regretted it's purchase. I will have to find something VERY
nice to motivate me to pass it on.

All for more than it would have cost me to buy a new RF-30 and
tooling. It fills my needs (mostly) and I like it. I would not consider
it for what you are describing as your needs. In fact, as I STILL don't
have a decent drill press, I am still considering getting a RF-30 for
things larger than I can otherwise deal with, on the cheap. The Centec
2B is a bit larger, but not by an amount that you would appreciate.
I have used an RF-30 a lot. The inability to hold zero when raising and
lowering the head is not as much of a deal as you might think. It makes
good fodder for arguing over, though. Again, we are talking about
fabbing brackets and such for your projects, not building cylinder heads
from billet stock, right?

Correct.

In my opinion, you will get more table space from an RF-30 than from
anything else you can afford, both in cash and space, without getting
very lucky. Of course, some of the best machine tool scrounges I've ever
heard of are in your neck of the woods. Luck might not be so hard to
find in this case. Still tough to beat the amount of capacity, for the
amount of shop space used for the RF-30.


I'm talking to one person on this board and will call some new and used
machine tool dealers today. If I can't find anything decent used and close
within a reasonable period of time, I'll go buy the RF 30 or maybe
(probably??) the Penn Tool drill/mill with the dovetail. It's $400 (plus
shipping) more than the round column model.

The price range you are looking at is far less of a spread than around
here. Here a RF-30 (or -31) is around $1400 CDN. The RF-45 runs about
$3500. Those are both Tiawanese made machines (slightly better
reputation than the chinese made machines) The dealer that had the
taller column machines was charging about $150 CDN more for the tall
ones. Looking at a Tiawan built machine next to a China built machine
makes a pretty good case for the Tiawanese product.


Cheers
Trevor Jones

This is probably a good time for me to speak up since my shop is
almost the embodiment of Trevor's advice.

About 9 years ago I bought a used 1979 RF-30 (Jet) for $750 that had
spent it's life in a camera repair shop. It's in good shape and I have
done a few fairly inticate milling projects with it. But mostly I've
drilled holes, hundreds if not thousands of holes. The truth about the
RF-30 is that it's a nice heavy drill press that can also do some
milling.

Most of my work is making brackets and adapters and repairing small
parts. This is almost entirely work on Mini Coopers, so the machine is
used in support of the cars. I also do the usual repair work for
friends and neighbors. I have yet to have had to use any of the
Bridgeports in my friends' shops that they have kindly offered.

My mill/drill has a #3 Morse taper spindle. I thought that this was
going to be limitation since mill tooling is expensive and sometimes
hard to find for this taper. R8 is much cheaper. However, Morse taper
drill bits are fairly cheap, used, and I have had good luck finding
larger sizes at estate sales and Boeing Surplus. The expense of 4 or 5
#3 MT endmill holders is more than made up for by the fact that I can
drill 1 inch (plus) holes in steel without having to worry about drill
bits slipping in a chuck.

That's my experience. I'd still like to have a vertical mill and the
RF-45 looks good. But so far I haven't needed it and I've used the
extra money and space in the shop for a small shaper.

I'll just add one more thing. A lot of people say that the mill/drills
are pretty worthless. If this was the case there should be a lot of
these things for sale used. I think the truth is that they make such
good drill presses that people seldom sell them even when they upgrade
to a larger mill.

Cheers,

Kelley

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 21:49:55 -0700, Trevor Jones
wrote:

Peter Grey wrote:

Ok. People in a previous thread have kindly beat me up and suggested I look
for alternatives to a new RF30 mill. I know very little (nothing, really)
about what exists in the used machine tool world. I'm an
automotive/racing/motorcycling hobbyist that needs a benchtop sized mill for
fabbing brackets, component mounts, and a whole bunch of stuff I'm sure I'll
think of once I get a mill. I have a very limited garage (maybe 200 square
feet) into which this must fit along with a bunch of other tools and a car.

My question is: what models of mills should I be looking for? I'm looking
for used equipment of a size and price similar to a new RF30 ($1,000 to
$1,500 without tooling). Also, who are the trustworthy dealers out there?
IOW, if I can't find what I'm looking for locally, is there a dealer who I
can call that will give me the straight scoop on something I can buy sight
unseen. Even knowing nothing about mills, but having - I think - good
mechanical intuitiveness, buying sight unseen makes me nervous... One
poster suggested a Centec mill and it looks cool but I can't find one for
sale in the States.

Thanks,

Peter

OK, this is going to look a bit funny, but, here goes.

You want to make brackets and stuff for your projects. No NASA
contracts, no defense industry prototypes. Nothing too critical. No
tolerances to a half-zillionth.

Buy the RF-30.

Get one with a R-8 spindle, rather than Morse taper. Mill tooling is
MUCH cheaper in R-8, and much more common. Think Ebay and machine tool
dealers. Morse taper stuff other than drills is not common.
If you can find a supplier that stocks the RF-30 with the taller
column, buy that. The extra couple bucks will get you lots more space to
use when you need. The rest of the time, it won't be in the way.

For a metalworker that will generally be laying out his lines directly
on the stock, and cutting to a line, these are a GREAT bargain. They are
a darn useful tool that doubles as a decent drill press (the extra
headroom, above, helps when using full length drills). This gives you
that much more space in the shop. (small enough space as it is).

I have a Centec 2A. It's a great little milling machine. In 500 lbs of
cast iron, and a steel stand, I get slightly more volume to work with
than if I had a sherline mill. It has MT-2 tapers (same as my lathes
tooling-makes for compatability) in it's vertical and horizontal
spindles. It has a power feed. Nice stuff. Not nearly what you will
want. All for more than it would have cost me to buy a new RF-30 and
tooling. It fills my needs (mostly) and I like it. I would not consider
it for what you are describing as your needs. In fact, as I STILL don't
have a decent drill press, I am still considering getting a RF-30 for
things larger than I can otherwise deal with, on the cheap. The Centec
2B is a bit larger, but not by an amount that you would appreciate.
I have used an RF-30 a lot. The inability to hold zero when raising and
lowering the head is not as much of a deal as you might think. It makes
good fodder for arguing over, though. Again, we are talking about
fabbing brackets and such for your projects, not building cylinder heads
from billet stock, right?

In my opinion, you will get more table space from an RF-30 than from
anything else you can afford, both in cash and space, without getting
very lucky. Of course, some of the best machine tool scrounges I've ever
heard of are in your neck of the woods. Luck might not be so hard to
find in this case. Still tough to beat the amount of capacity, for the
amount of shop space used for the RF-30.

The small and medium sizes of horizontal mill have smaller tables,
though they have their own advantages. The creativity required to deal
with problems on a horizontal mill are not a lot different from dealing
with the limitations of the mill drills. The small vertical mills all
seem to me to be limited to about 1/2" end mills, and really require a
lot more real estate than you seem to be able to afford. You can rarely
use the space in the base of a small mill for storage.

Anyway, that's my two bits worth.

In short, look at your "needs" at least as hard as you look at your
"wants".

Based on my experiences, I think that you will likely find what you
need in the RF-30 mill drill.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

"Kelley Mascher" wrote in message
...

Big snip---

I'll just add one more thing. A lot of people say that the mill/drills
are pretty worthless. If this was the case there should be a lot of
these things for sale used. I think the truth is that they make such
good drill presses that people seldom sell them even when they upgrade
to a larger mill.

Cheers,

Kelley

Yep, I agree. Actually, Grant has me wrong, although my last post clearly
stated that I wouldn't own a mill drill. In an earlier post I did suggest
them make a good heavy duty drill press, and I would gladly welcome one for
that function. I'm spoiled in that I already own a knee mill, so it's for
that reason I made my last bold statement, obviously not a clear and full
statement about my real meaning. I also agree that if one has no others
choices in life, a mill drill is far better than a file.

Excellent report on the real world, Kelley.

Harold

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Kelley Mascher" wrote in message
...

Big snip---

I'll just add one more thing. A lot of people say that the mill/drills
are pretty worthless. If this was the case there should be a lot of
these things for sale used. I think the truth is that they make such
good drill presses that people seldom sell them even when they upgrade
to a larger mill.

Cheers,

Kelley

Yep, I agree. Actually, Grant has me wrong, although my last post
clearly
stated that I wouldn't own a mill drill. In an earlier post I did suggest
them make a good heavy duty drill press, and I would gladly welcome one
for
that function. I'm spoiled in that I already own a knee mill, so it's
for
that reason I made my last bold statement, obviously not a clear and full
statement about my real meaning. I also agree that if one has no
others
choices in life, a mill drill is far better than a file.


So here's a question. Penn Tool has an inexpensive knee mill (see
http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/4487.cfm) that would fit into my
shop as well as a DM45 or RF30 would. The problem I see with it is that
with only 11.2" spindle to table, and 3.2" of spindle travel, it's severely
limited as a drill press. IOW, it may be a better mill but drilling holes
in going to be a PITA. For an all-rounder such as myself this limits its
attractiveness. If I bought this knee mill, wouldn't a need a real drill
press too? BTW, when using a knee mill, does the table or knee need to be
in the full elevated position when milling or drilling?

Peter

"Peter Grey" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Kelley Mascher" wrote in message
...

Big snip---

I'll just add one more thing. A lot of people say that the mill/drills
are pretty worthless. If this was the case there should be a lot of
these things for sale used. I think the truth is that they make such
good drill presses that people seldom sell them even when they upgrade
to a larger mill.

Cheers,

Kelley

Yep, I agree. Actually, Grant has me wrong, although my last post
clearly
stated that I wouldn't own a mill drill. In an earlier post I did
suggest
them make a good heavy duty drill press, and I would gladly welcome one
for
that function. I'm spoiled in that I already own a knee mill, so it's
for
that reason I made my last bold statement, obviously not a clear and
full
statement about my real meaning. I also agree that if one has no
others
choices in life, a mill drill is far better than a file.


So here's a question. Penn Tool has an inexpensive knee mill (see
http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/4487.cfm) that would fit into
my
shop as well as a DM45 or RF30 would. The problem I see with it is that
with only 11.2" spindle to table, and 3.2" of spindle travel, it's
severely
limited as a drill press. IOW, it may be a better mill but drilling holes
in going to be a PITA. For an all-rounder such as myself this limits its
attractiveness. If I bought this knee mill, wouldn't a need a real drill
press too? BTW, when using a knee mill, does the table or knee need to be
in the full elevated position when milling or drilling?

Peter

I'm of the opinion that you'd still be better served with a knee mill, in
spite of the limited quill travel. You'll still be able to do some serious
drilling with it, even relatively deep holes. What you do is raise and
lower the knee if you run out of travel with the quill, and with the knee
you don't lose orientation so long as the head is dialed true to the table.
That's not true of mill drills, which come with the round column.

In the real world, you're not likely to encounter the scenario of drilling
through three inches often, though, so it's not as bad as it may sound.
Regardless of frequency, it is far and away more convenient that constantly
trying to re-establish orientation each time you move the head on a mill
drill. In reality, that's my one and only serious gripe about them. If
they'd key the column such that they didn't turn when moved, I'd likely have
nothing negative to say about them.

When using a knee type mill, there's no real advantage to running the
machine with the knee in any particular position. It's engineered and built
such that it should be as useful at the top as at the bottom, the only
exception being if you were taking some extremely serious cuts, the knee
might resist flexing slightly better at the bottom, near the base, there the
column length has been reduced to a minimum, and is slightly heavier in
section than it is higher up, due to the slight taper that is generally a
part of the design of that type of machine. For the most part, it's a
point not worthy of discussion.

Harold

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 05:03:58 GMT, "Peter Grey"
brought forth from the murky depths:

So here's a question. Penn Tool has an inexpensive knee mill (see
http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/4487.cfm) that would fit into my
shop as well as a DM45 or RF30 would. The problem I see with it is that
with only 11.2" spindle to table, and 3.2" of spindle travel, it's severely
limited as a drill press.

Check out Grizzly's offerings. They have several better at similar or
lower prices and G3102 which is nearly identical except for weight.
www.grizzly.com


IOW, it may be a better mill but drilling holes
in going to be a PITA. For an all-rounder such as myself this limits its
attractiveness. If I bought this knee mill, wouldn't a need a real drill
press too?

Ask yourself: "How often do I have to drill deep holes?"
Be honest with yourself. "What am I making? What WILL I be
making?" Buy machinery which will allow you to do that.


BTW, when using a knee mill, does the table or knee need to be
in the full elevated position when milling or drilling?

Why would you? It's adjustable for different height workpieces.
(Guessing here. I haven't worked on a real mill since 8th Grade
metal shop.)


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