On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 01:41:59 GMT, Ignoramus5533
wrote:

I won this carbonator on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7555307999

I plan to wire it using a 24V relay, so that it only would run when
the welding machine opens the water valve. That would only happen
between the time of preflow and postflow. I already have a phase
converter

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Phase-Converter/

and the welder

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Weld...berTig-Welder/

and they are both noisy enough so that I do not have to worry about
brief periods when the water valve opens.

My plan it to connect it as follows: plastic bucket - pump -
condensor unit for heat exchange, cooled by fan - 1/4" hose -
welding machine's water valve - tig torch - 45V11 power adaptor -
1/4" hose - bucket.

Does this pump (see ebay link above) have any lift?

Does it need to be primed?

Is that reservoir that's pictured of any use (would be great)?

Can I use water with antifreeze, since it gets cold in my garage in
winter?

i

The cylinder with the unit is an accumulator/mixer. You do know what
carbonator pumps do..right?

Lift...some. Mount it on top of the 5 gallon bucket and it will self
prime just fine.

Iggy...you seem to have a fascination with having all the toys turn on
and off with the pedal. Im not terribly sure thats a good idea. That
little motor wont cost you dick in power costs and frankly..I rather
like having my torch circulating at all times rather than just when
the pedal is pushed down. You are going to be starting and stopping
that motor constantly. Just leave the damned thing run while the
welder is running and if you simply MUST have something to complicate
things..let the welders water valve do the work. Personally..on NONE
of my 3 tig machines, does the water get turned on and off whenever I
kick the pedal. When the machine comes on..so does the chiller. When
the machine is turned off..so does the chiller.

Im a firm believer in the KISS princible. But..shrug..I also believe
in Murphys Law.

btw..you see that round headed "bolt" sticking out of the bottom of
the pump housing below the stub of the big hose?..thats the pressure
bypass valve. If you hook your water to the water solenoid..you will
be giving that valve a real work out.

Gunner


"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:03:07 GMT, Ignoramus5533
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 03:43:43 GMT, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 01:41:59 GMT, Ignoramus5533
wrote:

I won this carbonator on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7555307999

I plan to wire it using a 24V relay, so that it only would run when
the welding machine opens the water valve. That would only happen
between the time of preflow and postflow. I already have a phase
converter

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Phase-Converter/

and the welder

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Weld...berTig-Welder/

and they are both noisy enough so that I do not have to worry about
brief periods when the water valve opens.

My plan it to connect it as follows: plastic bucket - pump -
condensor unit for heat exchange, cooled by fan - 1/4" hose -
welding machine's water valve - tig torch - 45V11 power adaptor -
1/4" hose - bucket.

Does this pump (see ebay link above) have any lift?

Does it need to be primed?

Is that reservoir that's pictured of any use (would be great)?

Can I use water with antifreeze, since it gets cold in my garage in
winter?

i

The cylinder with the unit is an accumulator/mixer. You do know what
carbonator pumps do..right?

I am embarrassed to say, not really. I have no idea what they do. I
know that they are pumps.

Lift...some. Mount it on top of the 5 gallon bucket and it will self
prime just fine.

That's very good.

Iggy...you seem to have a fascination with having all the toys turn on
and off with the pedal. Im not terribly sure thats a good idea.

When humidity is appreciable, running cold water through a torch would
create condensation and poor welds wil result. Welding books suggest
against that, not that I am an expert.


That water will be at startup..at room temperature. Not cold, unless
your shop is cold. It will very soon reach warm. Seldom hot, but warm.
Id think that condensation is the least of your issues. Shrug.

If I use my welder's water valve and it would not let water circulate
through the torch, the carbonator pump would be running against a
closed valve, not so nice, I suppose. Having this thing on a relay is
very easy and I do have all the relays and such. It is trivial.

That water will be working the pressure relief valve, which bypasses
the hose if the water valve is shut off. So it doesnt built up so much
pressure it blows your hoses.


That little motor wont cost you dick in power costs and frankly..I
rather like having my torch circulating at all times rather than
just when the pedal is pushed down. You are going to be starting and
stopping that motor constantly. Just leave the damned thing run
while the welder is running and if you simply MUST have something to
complicate things..let the welders water valve do the
work.

Personally..on NONE of my 3 tig machines, does the water get turned
on and off whenever I kick the pedal. When the machine comes on..so
does the chiller. When the machine is turned off..so does the
chiller.

Im a firm believer in the KISS princible. But..shrug..I also believe
in Murphys Law.

Now that is a good argument. More relays and stuff, more possibility
of failure.

I think that the answer depends on whether the pump is hurt by running
against a closed valve. Some people said it would overheat.

btw..you see that round headed "bolt" sticking out of the bottom of
the pump housing below the stub of the big hose?..thats the pressure
bypass valve.

Yes, I see it.

If you hook your water to the water solenoid..you will
be giving that valve a real work out.

And what is the implication of that?


i

It means that sooner or later, the valve will fail. Hopefully in an
open condition. That pump WILL pressure up enough to rather nicely
balloon and then explode your hoses, if the water flow is obstructed
and the pressure relief valve fails in the closed position. Think of
it as a safety pressure regulator.

Now Im just a simple minded country boy..but Im a machine tool service
tech by trade...and as such, have a great belief that things should be
as uncomplicated as possible. Hence I do things as simple as possible.
I dont make complicated Rollamatic door hinges on tool boxes when a
simple piano hinge works just fine, nor do I build complicated control
panels with multiple control relays, when a simple on/off switch will
be dandy. Shrug. Do as you see fit, its your machine. I suspect we
have different design philosophies G

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:03:07 GMT, Ignoramus5533
wrote:


The cylinder with the unit is an accumulator/mixer. You do know what
carbonator pumps do..right?

I am embarrassed to say, not really. I have no idea what they do. I
know that they are pumps.

"A water cooler and carbonator consisting of a water reservoir,
apparatus for cooling the reservoir, and a carbonation chamber
disposed within the reservoir. Cooled water is transferred to the
chamber from the reservoir and a pressure regulated container is used
to supply the chamber with carbon dioxide gas, resulting in the
production of carbonated water."


They are the pumping device used in bars, and anyplace with a
softdrink dispenser to supply carbonated water, which is usually mixed
with the various syrups to give you Coke, Pepsi and so forth on tap.

When you go to McDonalds, and pour yourself a Coke, somewhere in the
bowels of the big machine you are standing in front off, is a water
supply, filter unit, a carbonator and pump, a tank of CO2, and a bunch
of tanks or boxes of syrup. When you press Coke...it supplys the
carbonated water, mixes in the proper amount of syrup and delivers it
to your StarWars Special Offer glass G

Im sure you have gotten a soft drink that was flat, or watered down,
or just plain nasty. This is due to either being out of CO2, or out of
syrup, generally. Or old, stale syrup. Some of the less used beverages
can go gnarly before its used up inside the machine.

Often the gear to do this, generally in bars, is in a back room, as
there is limited space behind the bar. Sometime during a slow
period..ask the bartender to show you how it all works.

Most beers are simply delivered without any carbonation, but simply
use CO2 as a pressureizing agent on the keg in the back room

This will end todays lesson on semi- useful trivia brought to you by
the good folks at Gunner U. Send in your boxtops for a nifty secret
decoder ring. Please enclose $29.95 for shipping and handling. Void if
prohibited in your Sector.

Till next week, nanuu nanuu.


Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:08:13 GMT, Ignoramus21085
wrote:

Thanks Gunner. I read both of your posts. It's a good food for thought
and I agree that simplicity, when appropriate, is best.

i

my pleasure G

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Gunner Asch writes:

Im sure you have gotten a soft drink that was flat, or watered down,
or just plain nasty. This is due to either being out of CO2, or out of
syrup, generally.

Or out of ice over the cold plate flash chiller. Warm soda is flat soda.

Carbonator pumps put out way more than 100 psi. That's the CO2 pressure in
a carbonator tank that the pump must overcome to inject tap water, which is
why you need a pump to start with (tap water being way less than 100 psi).

http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm

Ignoramus6607 writes:

My tig torch and welder warn against
pressure over 50 PSI. How can I limit it for my carbonator pump.

I expect you'd need a bypass regulator, since the pump must need flow to
stay cool, so a static (?) regulator wouldn't suit.

Or how about this: you could get a whole McCann's carbonator unit (pump,
stainless pressure vessel, level switch) for about $200 or less on eBay,
and pressurize it with 50 psi air instead of CO2, and then you'd have a
stable 50 psi water out. And with a CO2 tank you could make soda after
work.

"Fountain" soda - aka the type in a cardboard 'milk like' container is without water
and soda. That is flat. It is syrup. If a baby has colic or gas on the stomach -
get some from the fountain people - just a pint or less - and put it in a baby bottle
with water. Make it just like to drink - the baby will drink it and the soda will
absorb the gas. Been there done it. Grew up in a family of 5 kids.

I used to have a cold plate - big chunk of Al - that is for sure. And a Green high
pressure bottle. Gave them away - soon after they were dumped on my driveway.
Some kids got it somewhere - and I bet it was hot. My kid was 6 months old so it wasn't
him or his. :-)

The one I had from COKE - had a one way value on the gas tank - I suppose that prevents
problems.

I call flat coke that sits in a glass or out of a can that falls on the floor and
foams all over. Coke is coke - coffee is coffee - as long as it has water in it -
it is just fine to me.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder


Richard J Kinch wrote:
Gunner Asch writes:


Im sure you have gotten a soft drink that was flat, or watered down,
or just plain nasty. This is due to either being out of CO2, or out of
syrup, generally.


Or out of ice over the cold plate flash chiller. Warm soda is flat soda.

Carbonator pumps put out way more than 100 psi. That's the CO2 pressure in
a carbonator tank that the pump must overcome to inject tap water, which is
why you need a pump to start with (tap water being way less than 100 psi).

http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm

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Ignoramus26744 writes:

Or how about this: you could get a whole McCann's carbonator unit
(pump, stainless pressure vessel, level switch) for about $200 or
less on eBay, and pressurize it with 50 psi air instead of CO2, and
then you'd have a stable 50 psi water out. And with a CO2 tank you
could make soda after work.

Do you have something that I can look at (item number etc)? I would
love to make carbonated water

http://www.mccannseng.com/html/carbo.htm

Search eBay using this term:

(mccann,mccanns) carbo*

Just now it turned up 11 units available there.