On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:38:28 GMT, Ted Edwards wrote:

Gary Glaenzer wrote:

it's neither difficult or non-obvious

it's right there under 'Tools', 'options' , 'read' and 'security'

You are completely misinformed re the level of computer literacy of the
average Windoze user. I have a college educated sister-in-law who finds
it too complicated to send me messages that she prepared in Word in
plain ASCII and that requires even fewer extra keystrokes. Nor is she
unique amoung people I know.

Ted


Hi Ted, this may also indicate the relative worth of a contemporary college education.

Regards,
Luke

Precisely. PCs are like washing machines - everybody has one and they are
like cars -work the controls and it goes without knowing how an automatic
transmission works. This is why my technologically challenged 80 yr old
mother can do email and search the internet along with millions of other
people. Where would it be today if everybody had to be a programmer to
operate a PC? Whether we like it or not the huge user-base of Windows made
computers possible for the masses and the fact that almost everyone was
using the same thing created a community that could help and understand each
other. In trying to support the non-technical community by making computers
easy to use MS also made it easy for viruses to be launched by non-technical
users.
Billh

"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
...
Gary Glaenzer wrote:

it's neither difficult or non-obvious

it's right there under 'Tools', 'options' , 'read' and 'security'

You are completely misinformed re the level of computer literacy of the
average Windoze user. I have a college educated sister-in-law who finds
it too complicated to send me messages that she prepared in Word in
plain ASCII and that requires even fewer extra keystrokes. Nor is she
unique amoung people I know.

Ted

IF we allpull together and stop using Outlook, the virii and worms
will go away.

Actually the writers will just become more creative targeting what had been
the lesser used programs.

Walt Conner

"Walt Conner" wrote in message news
IF we allpull together and stop using Outlook, the virii and worms
will go away.

Actually the writers will just become more creative targeting what had been
the lesser used programs.



they can't. The other programs
don't try to integrate with everything else
in Windoze and are therefore much safer.

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
am

On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 13:12:53 GMT, "Walt Conner"
wrote:

IF we allpull together and stop using Outlook, the virii and worms
will go away.

Actually the writers will just become more creative targeting what had been
the lesser used programs.

Walt Conner

True..and in most case will have a MUCH harder time writing a virus for
them, as they are by design, far more "bullet proof".

Gunner


Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
True..and in most case will have a MUCH harder time writing a virus for
them, as they are by design, far more "bullet proof".

I heard that the mac is actually built like a seive, but since nobody
uses them ( they are pretty well virus-free.

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

In article ,
Gunner wrote:
On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 13:12:53 GMT, "Walt Conner"
wrote:

IF we allpull together and stop using Outlook, the virii and worms
will go away.

I *can't* stop using Outlook. I've never *started* using it. :-)

Actually the writers will just become more creative targeting what had been
the lesser used programs.

[ ... ]

True..and in most case will have a MUCH harder time writing a virus for
them, as they are by design, far more "bullet proof".

*Especially* those which don't have built-in HTML capabilities.
:-) Web browsers used as newsreaders and e-mail agents without the
ability to turn of scripting (Java and JavaScript -- especially the
latter -- are ways into the system, since the web site (or e-mail or
news article) provide a program which is downloaded to your machine and
*run* on your machine -- thus bypassing a lot of the safeguards which
would otherwise be in place.

Outlook Express is known as "The Virus Writer's Friend", because
of all the security holes put in in the name of being "user-friendly".

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"mb" wrote in message
.. .

"DejaVU" wrote in message
...
D dwrate@interbaundotc0m scribed in
:

I received an e-mail today from Microsoft. The subject is "Newest
Internet Security Upgrade" It has an attachment that Outlook
Express removed as it was/is an executable called "installation
232.exe" The e-mail certainly looks authentic, so I checked The
Microsoft site and lo and behold there is a section on how to
tell if an e-mail is legitimate. There is an actual example of a
hoax and shocking enough it looks just like the email I
received....

So beware there seems to be something new out there...

it is the product of the SWEN virus, trying to send it self to you
and all the rest of us.

Please, will everyone wake up and ditch Outlook already? Outlook is
the target of allthese things, just about nothing else is vulnerable.
IF we allpull together and stop using Outlook, the virii and worms
will go away. Same with Spam, never reply, never buy, it will go.

swarf, steam and wind



Oh, purleese.
If we all ditched Outlook/Outlook Express and used 'something else', then
the virus writers will just target the 'something else'. If you think that
all the virus writers want to do is to bug Microsoft, I think you're very
much mistaken.

Mike

I agree. There is no safe system, and the "popular" one (read that the most
used), should Outlook Express get replaced by another, will be plagued
quickly.

One does not quit driving cars because some crazy person kills another
intentionally, he goes after the crazy person and gets them locked up.
Penalties for these idiots is simply not severe enough, if at all.
Personally, I don't intend to allow these fools to force me to make other
choices. It's easy enough to deal with the problem emails, though
inconvenient.

Harold

On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 04:46:42 GMT, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"mb" wrote in message
. ..

"DejaVU" wrote in message
...
D dwrate@interbaundotc0m scribed in
:

I received an e-mail today from Microsoft. The subject is "Newest
Internet Security Upgrade" It has an attachment that Outlook
Express removed as it was/is an executable called "installation
232.exe" The e-mail certainly looks authentic, so I checked The
Microsoft site and lo and behold there is a section on how to
tell if an e-mail is legitimate. There is an actual example of a
hoax and shocking enough it looks just like the email I
received....

So beware there seems to be something new out there...

it is the product of the SWEN virus, trying to send it self to you
and all the rest of us.

Please, will everyone wake up and ditch Outlook already? Outlook is
the target of allthese things, just about nothing else is vulnerable.
IF we allpull together and stop using Outlook, the virii and worms
will go away. Same with Spam, never reply, never buy, it will go.

swarf, steam and wind



Oh, purleese.
If we all ditched Outlook/Outlook Express and used 'something else', then
the virus writers will just target the 'something else'. If you think that
all the virus writers want to do is to bug Microsoft, I think you're very
much mistaken.

Mike

I agree. There is no safe system, and the "popular" one (read that the most
used), should Outlook Express get replaced by another, will be plagued
quickly.

One does not quit driving cars because some crazy person kills another
intentionally, he goes after the crazy person and gets them locked up.
Penalties for these idiots is simply not severe enough, if at all.
Personally, I don't intend to allow these fools to force me to make other
choices. It's easy enough to deal with the problem emails, though
inconvenient.

Harold


From my perspective, you folks are looking at it a bit askew. Its not
rocket science guys...

For example, think of Outlook Express as a semiautomatic pistol, with
poorly designed and defective safeties and trigger. Sure it works, but
sooner or later you will get an accidental discharge.

On the other hand..you have email client soft wear, such as Eudora,
which was well engineered and has well designed triggers and safeties.

You know thousands of people have blown off their feet, while handling
the OE pistol, so you are going to continue to use yours, knowing full
well it will indeed blow off YOUR foot sooner or later. Simply not
having problems up till now, is no sign that its safe.

Gunner

Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
What kind of other protection is in front of your Outlook
Express? Are there firewalls or other protective filters?

AFAIK it's pretty rock-solid.

I believe
that the computer you use has been set up, and is maintained by your
older brother, so you may not know what protections are in place which
are not on the average Windows system.

The LAN at least. I know he installed whatever updates.
mattwill @ netzero.net if you want to know more from him.

Also, he may have patched the
version of Outlook Express which you have, so the major hole currently
being exploited is closed. (After all, this hole was exploited over a
year ago, and patches were made available at that time.)

Something any responsible computer user would do.

For that matter -- your ISP may happen to be doing a good job of
filtering incoming e-mail, so your Outlook Express doesn't see the worst
of the threats.

Nope, unfortunately I seem to get hit as bad as anyone, with the viruses
and spam.
This latest rash, however, none of the messages are send to the recipient
(by To: or Cc: fields) so they all get culled by my filters.
A hundred (15MB!) slows down the morning e-mail download though.

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

In article ,
Tim Williams wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
What kind of other protection is in front of your Outlook
Express? Are there firewalls or other protective filters?

AFAIK it's pretty rock-solid.

I believe
that the computer you use has been set up, and is maintained by your
older brother, so you may not know what protections are in place which
are not on the average Windows system.

The LAN at least. I know he installed whatever updates.
mattwill @ netzero.net if you want to know more from him.

And your connection to the net is through the LAN, I presume?
That makes it a different game than having the machine dialing out with
its own modem. Your brother's setup is protecting you at least in part.

I don't really need to know more about the details of what he is
doing -- just the fact that it is being done changes the game
significantly, and is probably why you have not yet suffered a virus
infection. This is not through any strengths of OE, but rather through
your brother's diligence. Most people do not have someone running
interference for them in this way. Appreciate a good system
administrator -- you won't always have him between you and the outside
world (which is getting nastier as time goes on.)

Also, he may have patched the
version of Outlook Express which you have, so the major hole currently
being exploited is closed. (After all, this hole was exploited over a
year ago, and patches were made available at that time.)

Something any responsible computer user would do.

Look around -- with me getting 150/day of the Swen worm, and
others getting in the thousands (and you getting a hundred per day), it
would seem that there are fewer responsible computer users around than
irresponsible ones. (I turned off the flood by limiting the maximum
size of an e-mail to a threshold below the size of the various current
virii.) Not that I need to worry about infection -- not only do I *not*
use Outlook Express, I don't even use Windows. But I still suffer the
results of those who do use them and don't take the time to patch the
programs. (Or those who can be fooled into applying the pseudo "patch"
which Swen sends out in one of its two forms.)

For that matter -- your ISP may happen to be doing a good job of
filtering incoming e-mail, so your Outlook Express doesn't see the worst
of the threats.

Nope, unfortunately I seem to get hit as bad as anyone, with the viruses
and spam.
This latest rash, however, none of the messages are send to the recipient
(by To: or Cc: fields) so they all get culled by my filters.
A hundred (15MB!) slows down the morning e-mail download though.

I don't have to deal with *that* delay, because my systems are
on-line 24/7, and e-mail comes in to them throughout that time -- so I'm
not subjected to that delay. When I start to read e-mail, the mail is
already on my system -- except for that which was big enough to get
stopped when it reached my size threshold, which will *never* be on my
system. :-)

And I also don't have to deal with ISP imposed mailbox size
limits. I've got about 2.5 GB of elbow room where my e-mail normally
lands.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:45:54 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
For example, think of Outlook Express as a semiautomatic pistol, with
poorly designed and defective safeties and trigger. Sure it works, but
sooner or later you will get an accidental discharge.

So tell me, does three years of constant use constitute a significant
chance of at least one discharge?

Tim (still waiting...)

Gee Tim, you will have to ask others. Im still getting around 100
viruses an hour, which are being handled by my various automatic
defenses. Those emails are NOT coming from machines that were running
Eudora etc etc..but from the specific programs targeted by the script
kiddies.

So simply because YOU have remained below the radar, is no indication
that sooner or later you wont get shot in the foot. Id be happy to send
you a couple viruses and see if you manage to shrug them off.

Just count your blessings that you remain below the radar.

Gunner

Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
And your connection to the net is through the LAN, I presume?
That makes it a different game than having the machine dialing out with
its own modem. Your brother's setup is protecting you at least in part.

How much different? AFAIK it can be done just as well with a hardware
router (or cheezy 486 computer..) as with a software firewall.

I don't really need to know more about the details of what he is
doing -- just the fact that it is being done changes the game
significantly, and is probably why you have not yet suffered a virus
infection. This is not through any strengths of OE, but rather through
your brother's diligence.

I don't see the difference (aside from hacker attacks), because I still
recieve all the viruses as usual.

A hundred (15MB!) slows down the morning e-mail download though.

I don't have to deal with *that* delay, because my systems are
on-line 24/7, and e-mail comes in to them throughout that time -- so I'm
not subjected to that delay.

At the worst of it I left OE open just to keep it downloading..
I don't feel like sleeping with the computer fans on so I still have
the morning glut.

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
So simply because YOU have remained below the radar...

I still don't see why you treat this as a case of statistics.

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

In article ,
Tim Williams wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
And your connection to the net is through the LAN, I presume?
That makes it a different game than having the machine dialing out with
its own modem. Your brother's setup is protecting you at least in part.

How much different? AFAIK it can be done just as well with a hardware
router (or cheezy 486 computer..) as with a software firewall.

Actually, a hardware firewall is a *lot* better than a software
one. Many of the virii are now set up to disable the software ones, if
they ever get a foothold. *And* -- a router alone, by default, is far
too open -- you need a lot more than the default settings in a router.

I don't really need to know more about the details of what he is
doing -- just the fact that it is being done changes the game
significantly, and is probably why you have not yet suffered a virus
infection. This is not through any strengths of OE, but rather through
your brother's diligence.

I don't see the difference (aside from hacker attacks), because I still
recieve all the viruses as usual.

How do you distinguish a hacker atack from a virus these days?
The virii (many of them) install backdoors and report to an IRC page
that the backdoor is installed on a machine at IP xx.yyy.zz.aa, and
these backdoors are exercised by spammers to install spamming software,
so the blame comes down on the victim, instead of the spammer.

One thing that your brother's setup may be doing is preventing
any possible virus infection from contacting the outside world.

Also, your patched OE is probably protecting you quite a bit --
but not everybody (by a long shot) has installed such patches. :-)

A hundred (15MB!) slows down the morning e-mail download though.

I don't have to deal with *that* delay, because my systems are
on-line 24/7, and e-mail comes in to them throughout that time -- so I'm
not subjected to that delay.

At the worst of it I left OE open just to keep it downloading..
I don't feel like sleeping with the computer fans on so I still have
the morning glut.

Understood.

Can you limit the size of incoming e-mails in any way? Set a
threshold of 100K and none of the current virii will make it in.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 23:01:43 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
So simply because YOU have remained below the radar...

I still don't see why you treat this as a case of statistics.

Tim

Im still getting around 100 viruses and whatnot an hour. These are not
being Spontainiously Created from the Ether.

They are not coming from Linux/Unix or Mac machines. They are ONLY
coming from Windows machines that are running Outlook or Outlook
Express. (and for a couple viruses..Netscape)

the MiMail weaknesses in OE are what are targeted. Outlook and Outlook
express have to date..205 weaknesses that are exploited by virus
writers.

No other email/news program, to my knowledge have that many, or if
any, few, exploitable weakness points.

The fact remains, unless you use strong and ironclad security, the
address books in OE are what are used to propagate most
viruses/trojans.

The current viruses have been around for a couple years, and the
patches from Microsoft have been around for that long. So why am I
getting 100+ per hour? Its because folks are using a software that
needs constant security patches, and they are not doing it. I use
software that almost never needs security patches. And by almost..I
mean, there have been none released to my knowledge. Or none needed.

Shrug..its stats..you use it, you will sooner or later get bit.

Gunner

"People are more violently opposed to fur than leather,
because it is easier to harrass rich women
than it is motorcycle gangs." - Bumper Sticker

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
Can you limit the size of incoming e-mails in any way? Set a
threshold of 100K and none of the current virii will make it in.

I wouldn't want to do that anyway.. there IS such a thing as useful and
harmless attachments! Now what I'd really like to do is stop anything
140-160kB in size, or all executable types. Or even all but .GIF, .PNG,
..JPG and .ZIP...
But I've never looked into it so, no idea.

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms