Lathe vs milling machine
'lo
Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) |
Gil HASH wrote:
'lo Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) I am sure you will get plenty of responses to this frequent question, and the usual answer is: Buy a lathe first. A lathe is the more versatile machine. You can do some milling on a lathe, but a mill makes a very poor lathe. If you have a specific purpose that absolutely requires a mill, the priority could change. For example, if your typical project requires drilling and slotting pieces of 1/4" plate you would want the mill first. |
Gil HASH wrote:
Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) I'm a newbie but I would say the basic question is whether you are going to be working with cylinderical shapes or rectangular shapes. If you plan to primarily work with rectangular shapes then you ought to start with a mill. If cylinderical shapes then you ought to start with a lathe. Neither a mill nor a lathe can really substitute for the other. |
Gil HASH wrote:
'lo Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) You can get milling attachments for lathes, that let you do small milling jobs a bit more awkwardly than you could with a dedicated mill. If you can get turning attachments for milling machines they're not very common... -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
The answer depends on what sort of things you plan to build. Most of
the electronics companies I've worked for didn't have or need a lathe. I've found the lathe most useful for making power transmission components such as axles, bearings, shaft couplers and adapters, etc. However these are often easier to buy than to make, unlike structural components. A mill can machine framework parts and drill accurate mounting holes, so if you plan to buy the shafts and bearings the mill is enough. Segway has a good machine shop with CNC lathe and mill but so far I've been able to make everything I need here with the drill press, bandsaw and belt sander -- to 0.1mm accuracy. Neither machine is a substitute for the other except for very simple jobs you could do almost as well with hand tools (and practice). There's a Smithy Granite combo lathe/mill here in the shop that no one likes. I'm told it is a very awkward milling machine and the plastic gears break. Personally I could live with a mill drill and 3"-6" mini lathe for occasional light machining. Sherlines are just too small for my home projects (log splitter, bucket loader, sawmill, etc) but I did use an old 6" Sears lathe to drill pivot pin grease passages for the hydraulic bucket loader and probably could have turned and threaded the pressure relief valve with it. jw |
"Gil HASH" wrote in message
... 'lo Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) The primary limitation of using a mill for turning (i.e., lathe work) is the size of piece you could handle. On a small vertical mill you might be able to handle a piece about 7" diameter and 12" long. On a small horizontal mill you might be able to do 20" diameter x 3" long. A typical home shop lathe (e.g., a 9" South Bend) can handle 9" diameter by 30" long. Conversely, a similar lathe used in milling could handle about a 6" x 5" work piece without moving the work between cuts. While turning on a mill is doable, it is a pain to set-up .. I only do it on those rare occassions when I have to turn something big diameter and relatively thin. As for which to get first .. I strongly disagree with the idea of getting a mill first if you expect to do mostly milling. The lathe is inherently more versatile. Also, milling attachments and fixtures for lathes abound. The reverse for mills doesn't hold. Another serious limitation of using a mill is the difficulty of mounting the work .. indeed, if a chuck can be mounted on the mill spindle at all. Most likely, you'd have to machine some adapters for face plates or chucks.. for which you would need a lathe. I've yet to find chuck commercially available adapters for small mills -- beyond a wimpy 3 jaw chuck like you'd find on a drill press. that is, wimpy compared to the typical chuck you find on a lathe. By the time you've tooled up the adapters you need to mount a chuck, you've already heavy into lathe work .. tapers, threads, boring, turning, etc. Boris ------------------------------------- Boris Beizer Ph.D. Seminars and Consulting 1232 Glenbrook Road on Software Testing and Huntingdon Valley, PA 19006 Quality Assurance TEL: 215-572-5580 FAX: 215-886-0144 Email bsquare "at" earthlink.net ------------------------------------------ |
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:50:15 +0400, Gil HASH wrote:
'lo Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? No it cannot. In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? While each of the two machines can be adapted in a make-shift way to perform some of the functions of the other, they are each designed for different purposes and should be used appropriately if optimum results are wanted. For example, in my case I have a 10" lathe (capable of rotating a 10" diameter workpiece) and a small horizontal milling machine. If I needed to turn the outside diameter ("OD") of a workpiece that was larger than 10" I *could* mount the workpiece in place of the arbor in my milling machine and then mount a cutting bit to the table, feeding it by moving the table. It would work but it would not give optimal results compared to a lathe of appropriate capacity for the job. I could also get a milling attachment for my lathe which is mounted to the cross-slide (usually in place of the top-slide) of the lathe and provides a means of positioning a workpiece vertically. An end mill is inserted in the lathe's spindle (using a collet) and the workpiece, being clamped to the milling attachment is fed into the end mill using the carriage, etc. feeds. This arrangement is notoriously lacking in rigidity and severely limited in workpiece size capacity compared to even the smallest milling machines. For very simple operations this setup can achieve satisfactory results, but most people are disappointed by their performance. (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) If you study various machines you will see that they are composed primarily of cylindrical parts. Shafts, pulleys, pins, bolts, cranks, pistons and cylinders, etc. This is what lathes are designed to make best, so statistically, lathes are put to use more often than other machine tools when fabricating or repairing other machines. It depends on what you want to make with your machine shop, but I think in general you will find more use in a lathe than you will in a milling machine. I know, for myself, my first machine tool purchase was a lathe, and once I had gotten enough tooling (accessories, specialized cutters, etc.) it kept me occupied for years before I finally bought a milling machine. It was on the lathe that I learned about the different cutting characteristics of different materials; speeds and feeds, tool geometry, etc. This vital knowledge and experience was directly transferable to use on the milling machine when I got around to buying it. |
Ignoramus23461 wrote:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:50:15 +0400, Gil HASH wrote: 'lo Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) You cannot do threading on a mill... Difficult to make conical things also... (unless I am missing something) i You're missing quite a bit. Threading is definitely possible on a mill, just not with a single point tool like on a lathe. Tapping heads for mills are a common item and many CNC mills support rigid tapping. That takes care of internal threading, external threading is less common on a mill, but can be done to a limited extent for smaller parts using a suitable die stock, or on a CNC mill via thread milling. Conical parts can be done on a mill with a tilting rotary table although it's far from an ideal way to do it. Generally a mill is a more versatile machine than a lathe although it will not fully replace one. If I had to decide which to buy first I'd go for the mill and try to add the lathe ASAP. Pete C. |
Boris Beizer wrote:
"Gil HASH" wrote in message ... 'lo Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) The primary limitation of using a mill for turning (i.e., lathe work) is the size of piece you could handle. On a small vertical mill you might be able to handle a piece about 7" diameter and 12" long. On a small horizontal mill you might be able to do 20" diameter x 3" long. A typical home shop lathe (e.g., a 9" South Bend) can handle 9" diameter by 30" long. Conversely, a similar lathe used in milling could handle about a 6" x 5" work piece without moving the work between cuts. While turning on a mill is doable, it is a pain to set-up .. I only do it on those rare occassions when I have to turn something big diameter and relatively thin. As for which to get first .. I strongly disagree with the idea of getting a mill first if you expect to do mostly milling. The lathe is inherently more versatile. Also, milling attachments and fixtures for lathes abound. The reverse for mills doesn't hold. Another serious limitation of using a mill is the difficulty of mounting the work .. indeed, if a chuck can be mounted on the mill spindle at all. Most likely, you'd have to machine some adapters for face plates or chucks.. for which you would need a lathe. I've yet to find chuck commercially available adapters for small mills -- beyond a wimpy 3 jaw chuck like you'd find on a drill press. that is, wimpy compared to the typical chuck you find on a lathe. By the time you've tooled up the adapters you need to mount a chuck, you've already heavy into lathe work .. tapers, threads, boring, turning, etc. Boris ------------------------------------- Boris Beizer Ph.D. Seminars and Consulting 1232 Glenbrook Road on Software Testing and Huntingdon Valley, PA 19006 Quality Assurance TEL: 215-572-5580 FAX: 215-886-0144 Email bsquare "at" earthlink.net ------------------------------------------ I think you're approaching it all wrong. To do limited lathe type work on a mill, you would not place a lathe type chuck on the mills spindle to turn the work piece. What you do is use a rotary table or dividing head to hold and turn the work piece and use conventional milling cutters to do the work. This is why a lathe type chuck to go in a mill spindle does not exist and numerous rotary tables and dividing heads do exist. Milling on a lathe is at least as awkward as lathing on a mill, and the mill is still the more versatile machine to have. There are certainly parts that you can make on a lathe that you can't make on a mill, and vice versa, however for typical home shop projects the mill will be able to accomplish more of the tasks. Much of what you can't do on the mill is shafts and bushings that can be readily purchased, and in fact with a boring head you can make most of those bushings on the mill as well. Either way, a proper shop should have both a mill and a lathe along with the proper tooling for both, which will cost more than the base machines. But start with the mill. Pete C. |
Artemia Salina wrote:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:50:15 +0400, Gil HASH wrote: 'lo Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? No it cannot. In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? While each of the two machines can be adapted in a make-shift way to perform some of the functions of the other, they are each designed for different purposes and should be used appropriately if optimum results are wanted. For example, in my case I have a 10" lathe (capable of rotating a 10" diameter workpiece) and a small horizontal milling machine. If I needed to turn the outside diameter ("OD") of a workpiece that was larger than 10" I *could* mount the workpiece in place of the arbor in my milling machine and then mount a cutting bit to the table, feeding it by moving the table. It would work but it would not give optimal results compared to a lathe of appropriate capacity for the job. I could also get a milling attachment for my lathe which is mounted to the cross-slide (usually in place of the top-slide) of the lathe and provides a means of positioning a workpiece vertically. An end mill is inserted in the lathe's spindle (using a collet) and the workpiece, being clamped to the milling attachment is fed into the end mill using the carriage, etc. feeds. This arrangement is notoriously lacking in rigidity and severely limited in workpiece size capacity compared to even the smallest milling machines. For very simple operations this setup can achieve satisfactory results, but most people are disappointed by their performance. (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) If you study various machines you will see that they are composed primarily of cylindrical parts. Shafts, pulleys, pins, bolts, cranks, pistons and cylinders, etc. This is what lathes are designed to make best, so statistically, lathes are put to use more often than other machine tools when fabricating or repairing other machines. It depends on what you want to make with your machine shop, but I think in general you will find more use in a lathe than you will in a milling machine. What holds all those cylindrical parts together? Parts that were milled mostly, and while you can inexpensively purchase shafts, pulleys, pins and bolts off the shelf, you can not purchase the pieces to hold it all together. How often do you make your own bolts anyway vs. purchase quality bolts like perhaps grade 8 which would be difficult to produce yourself? I know, for myself, my first machine tool purchase was a lathe, and once I had gotten enough tooling (accessories, specialized cutters, etc.) it kept me occupied for years before I finally bought a milling machine. It was on the lathe that I learned about the different cutting characteristics of different materials; speeds and feeds, tool geometry, etc. This vital knowledge and experience was directly transferable to use on the milling machine when I got around to buying it. I have both a lathe and a mill, and the mill gets more use by a 5:1 factor or better. Pete C. |
"Boris Beizer" wrote in message k.net... snip--- A typical home shop lathe (e.g., a 9" South Bend) can handle 9" diameter by 30" long. Not really. While the lathe may have a 9" swing, it can't swing that diameter over the cross slide. I'd suggest you would be restricted to about 4" diameter instead. Harold |
"Gil HASH" wrote in message ... 'lo Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) Just an observation. With a mill you can make a lathe. A lathe cannot make a mill. Which is more versatile???? I don't know. -- Clif Holland KA5IPF |
Pete C. wrote:
Boris Beizer wrote: "Gil HASH" wrote in message .. . 'lo Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) The primary limitation of using a mill for turning (i.e., lathe work) is the size of piece you could handle. On a small vertical mill you might be able to handle a piece about 7" diameter and 12" long. On a small horizontal mill you might be able to do 20" diameter x 3" long. A typical home shop lathe (e.g., a 9" South Bend) can handle 9" diameter by 30" long. Conversely, a similar lathe used in milling could handle about a 6" x 5" work piece without moving the work between cuts. While turning on a mill is doable, it is a pain to set-up .. I only do it on those rare occassions when I have to turn something big diameter and relatively thin. As for which to get first .. I strongly disagree with the idea of getting a mill first if you expect to do mostly milling. The lathe is inherently more versatile. Also, milling attachments and fixtures for lathes abound. The reverse for mills doesn't hold. Another serious limitation of using a mill is the difficulty of mounting the work .. indeed, if a chuck can be mounted on the mill spindle at all. Most likely, you'd have to machine some adapters for face plates or chucks.. for which you would need a lathe. I've yet to find chuck commercially available adapters for small mills -- beyond a wimpy 3 jaw chuck like you'd find on a drill press. that is, wimpy compared to the typical chuck you find on a lathe. By the time you've tooled up the adapters you need to mount a chuck, you've already heavy into lathe work .. tapers, threads, boring, turning, etc. Boris ------------------------------------- Boris Beizer Ph.D. Seminars and Consulting 1232 Glenbrook Road on Software Testing and Huntingdon Valley, PA 19006 Quality Assurance TEL: 215-572-5580 FAX: 215-886-0144 Email bsquare "at" earthlink.net ------------------------------------------ I think you're approaching it all wrong. To do limited lathe type work on a mill, you would not place a lathe type chuck on the mills spindle to turn the work piece. What you do is use a rotary table or dividing head to hold and turn the work piece and use conventional milling cutters to do the work. This is why a lathe type chuck to go in a mill spindle does not exist and numerous rotary tables and dividing heads do exist. Although I have done just that on a cnc mill, with great success, but on a manual mill you are correct, it is silly Milling on a lathe is at least as awkward as lathing on a mill, and the mill is still the more versatile machine to have. There are certainly parts that you can make on a lathe that you can't make on a mill, and vice versa, however for typical home shop projects the mill will be able to accomplish more of the tasks. Much of what you can't do on the mill is shafts and bushings that can be readily purchased, and in fact with a boring head you can make most of those bushings on the mill as well. Either way, a proper shop should have both a mill and a lathe along with the proper tooling for both, which will cost more than the base machines. But start with the mill. Pete C. I bought a lathe first, and while your argument is persuasive, I think that most 'hobbyist' mill operations can be done to some extent with a angle grinder or a file, the same is not true for turning operations. The stuff even an amateur needs [boring a bushing] is more easily done correctly, with less tooling cost, on a lathe. In the end I say : Neither Buy one of those old Bridgeport BOSS stepper machines and put a pc control on it |
yourname wrote:
Pete C. wrote: Boris Beizer wrote: "Gil HASH" wrote in message .. . 'lo Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) The primary limitation of using a mill for turning (i.e., lathe work) is the size of piece you could handle. On a small vertical mill you might be able to handle a piece about 7" diameter and 12" long. On a small horizontal mill you might be able to do 20" diameter x 3" long. A typical home shop lathe (e.g., a 9" South Bend) can handle 9" diameter by 30" long. Conversely, a similar lathe used in milling could handle about a 6" x 5" work piece without moving the work between cuts. While turning on a mill is doable, it is a pain to set-up .. I only do it on those rare occassions when I have to turn something big diameter and relatively thin. As for which to get first .. I strongly disagree with the idea of getting a mill first if you expect to do mostly milling. The lathe is inherently more versatile. Also, milling attachments and fixtures for lathes abound. The reverse for mills doesn't hold. Another serious limitation of using a mill is the difficulty of mounting the work .. indeed, if a chuck can be mounted on the mill spindle at all. Most likely, you'd have to machine some adapters for face plates or chucks.. for which you would need a lathe. I've yet to find chuck commercially available adapters for small mills -- beyond a wimpy 3 jaw chuck like you'd find on a drill press. that is, wimpy compared to the typical chuck you find on a lathe. By the time you've tooled up the adapters you need to mount a chuck, you've already heavy into lathe work .. tapers, threads, boring, turning, etc. Boris ------------------------------------- Boris Beizer Ph.D. Seminars and Consulting 1232 Glenbrook Road on Software Testing and Huntingdon Valley, PA 19006 Quality Assurance TEL: 215-572-5580 FAX: 215-886-0144 Email bsquare "at" earthlink.net ------------------------------------------ I think you're approaching it all wrong. To do limited lathe type work on a mill, you would not place a lathe type chuck on the mills spindle to turn the work piece. What you do is use a rotary table or dividing head to hold and turn the work piece and use conventional milling cutters to do the work. This is why a lathe type chuck to go in a mill spindle does not exist and numerous rotary tables and dividing heads do exist. Although I have done just that on a cnc mill, with great success, but on a manual mill you are correct, it is silly I've used my Bridgeport and a rotary table to "turn" the outside of a 30" diameter x 1/2" think piece. Also drilled a bolt circle and a few other features. I rough cut the piece to about 31" dia with a jig saw first. Milling on a lathe is at least as awkward as lathing on a mill, and the mill is still the more versatile machine to have. There are certainly parts that you can make on a lathe that you can't make on a mill, and vice versa, however for typical home shop projects the mill will be able to accomplish more of the tasks. Much of what you can't do on the mill is shafts and bushings that can be readily purchased, and in fact with a boring head you can make most of those bushings on the mill as well. Either way, a proper shop should have both a mill and a lathe along with the proper tooling for both, which will cost more than the base machines. But start with the mill. Pete C. I bought a lathe first, and while your argument is persuasive, I think that most 'hobbyist' mill operations can be done to some extent with a angle grinder or a file, the same is not true for turning operations. Never chucked a shaft in your electric drill and gone at it with a file? Sucks, but is comparable to milling with a grinder and file. The stuff even an amateur needs [boring a bushing] is more easily done correctly, with less tooling cost, on a lathe. Boring head and a pair of disposable soft jaws for the milling vice. close the vice and drill/bore the jaws to fit the bushing OD and then use the vice to hold the bushing while you bore the ID. Not ideal certainly, but quick and workable. In the end I say : Neither Buy one of those old Bridgeport BOSS stepper machines and put a pc control on it If you can find one. I keep hearing how they're everywhere and cheap, but I haven't seen one cheap. If you know of one let me know since I'd like to buy one. I have a 1J right now. Pete C. |
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message ... "Boris Beizer" wrote in message k.net... snip--- A typical home shop lathe (e.g., a 9" South Bend) can handle 9" diameter by 30" long. Not really. While the lathe may have a 9" swing, it can't swing that diameter over the cross slide. I'd suggest you would be restricted to about 4" diameter instead. Oops! Boris (Red-in-the-face) Beizer |
In article , Gil HASH says...
(It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) What is your first project? That will tell you which one to purchase. Lathes make round parts using square tools. Milling machines make square parts using round tools. What do you want to build? Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
P
If you can find one. I keep hearing how they're everywhere and cheap, but I haven't seen one cheap. If you know of one let me know since I'd like to buy one. I have a 1J right now. Pete C. ebay do look around, some might want real money, but they is goofy. |
Keep in mind this is a new guy. I doubt he is looking at buying
a CNC mill or tons of tooling to make a mill do the work of a lathe. Threading is definitely possible on a mill, just not with a single point tool like on a lathe. Tapping heads for mills are a common item and many CNC mills support rigid tapping. That takes care of internal threading, external threading is less common on a mill, but can be done to a limited extent for smaller parts using a suitable die stock, or on a CNC mill via thread milling. Conical parts can be done on a mill with a tilting rotary table although it's far from an ideal way to do it. |
Chuck Sherwood wrote:
Keep in mind this is a new guy. I doubt he is looking at buying a CNC mill or tons of tooling to make a mill do the work of a lathe. Threading is definitely possible on a mill, just not with a single point tool like on a lathe. Tapping heads for mills are a common item and many CNC mills support rigid tapping. That takes care of internal threading, external threading is less common on a mill, but can be done to a limited extent for smaller parts using a suitable die stock, or on a CNC mill via thread milling. Conical parts can be done on a mill with a tilting rotary table although it's far from an ideal way to do it. Well, it doesn't matter whether he buys a mill or a lathe first, he's still going to end up buying a ton of tooling - it's unavoidable. The tooling usually costs you more than the base machines. Pete C. |
"Ignoramus23461" wrote in message
... | On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:50:15 +0400, Gil HASH wrote: | 'lo | Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : | Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? | In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? | (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) | | You cannot do threading on a mill... Difficult to make conical things | also... (unless I am missing something) | | i Certainly can be done. There's tooling to connect the quill to the tap just for that purpose. You can thread larger pieces of flat stock on a mill most accurately, but long parts threaded in the end are lathe items for sure. |
"Boris Beizer" wrote in message nk.net... "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message ... "Boris Beizer" wrote in message k.net... snip--- A typical home shop lathe (e.g., a 9" South Bend) can handle 9" diameter by 30" long. Not really. While the lathe may have a 9" swing, it can't swing that diameter over the cross slide. I'd suggest you would be restricted to about 4" diameter instead. Oops! Boris (Red-in-the-face) Beizer Chuckle! It'll be my turn tomorrow, Boris. Harold |
In article et,
carl mciver wrote: "Ignoramus23461" wrote in message .. . | On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:50:15 +0400, Gil HASH wrote: | 'lo | Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : | Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? | In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? | (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) | | You cannot do threading on a mill... Difficult to make conical things | also... (unless I am missing something) | | i Certainly can be done. There's tooling to connect the quill to the tap just for that purpose. You can thread larger pieces of flat stock on a mill most accurately, but long parts threaded in the end are lathe items for sure. Or -- threading a shaft between two larger diameter collars, for that matter. There are ways around everything, with fancy enough machines and lots of imagination (and lots of money spent on special-purpose tooling. But -- I would get a lathe before a mill. (Except that I got both at the same time many years ago -- the Unimat SL-1000, which was not very good at either task, but better as a lathe than as a milling machine. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
"Pete C." wrote in message ... snip- I have both a lathe and a mill, and the mill gets more use by a 5:1 factor or better. Pete C. While it's true that I often bid on, and ran, lathe work, my lathe sat idle roughly 75% of the time when I was actively machining. A great deal of my work was jig and fixture (tool making) work, the vast majority of which was mill work. Still, when starting out, a lathe seems so much more natural, and is an easier way to begin machining, considering you have only two dimensions over which to worry. Further, it's a lot cheaper to grind cutting tools for a lathe than to purchase typical milling cutters, most of which can not be hand sharpened. I'd suggest that anyone starting out in machining do so on a lathe, if for no other reason, to help get an understanding of machining concepts, and to make mistakes that are (hopefully) less expensive. The ultimate goal would be to own both machines. Harold Harold |
In article , Pete C. wrote:
Artemia Salina wrote: On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:50:15 +0400, Gil HASH wrote: [ ... ] If you study various machines you will see that they are composed primarily of cylindrical parts. Shafts, pulleys, pins, bolts, cranks, pistons and cylinders, etc. This is what lathes are designed to make best, so statistically, lathes are put to use more often than other machine tools when fabricating or repairing other machines. It depends on what you want to make with your machine shop, but I think in general you will find more use in a lathe than you will in a milling machine. What holds all those cylindrical parts together? Parts that were milled mostly, and while you can inexpensively purchase shafts, pulleys, pins and bolts off the shelf, you can not purchase the pieces to hold it all together. How often do you make your own bolts anyway vs. purchase quality bolts like perhaps grade 8 which would be difficult to produce yourself? Well ... I have made special purpose bolts of various sorts which I either could not purchase, or could not get affordably in the quantities in which I needed them. And I've even made special purpose bolts for my Clausing lathe. The taper attachment came from eBay, and was not complete. I needed special bolts with specific lengths and with square heads to match those on the rest of the lathe and those still present on the taper attachment, just so one wrench would do for all of those. Granted, I used a small milling machine and an index head to produce the square heads. For hex heads, I often just start with hex stock fed through the spindle of the lathe. I turn off what is needed to make the shank, thread it, and then part off to form the head. (And I often use the Geometric die heads in a bed turret in the lathe for the threading in this sort of operation.) Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
In article IasKe.5239$0d.488@trnddc03, Clif Holland wrote:
"Gil HASH" wrote in message ... 'lo Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) Just an observation. With a mill you can make a lathe. A lathe cannot make a mill. This is the reverse of the common wisdom. "The lathe is the only tool which can build itself." (In reality, a larger lathe can make a smaller one.) This can even include a lathe boring and facing holes in castings which are bolted to a faceplate. Or even line boring, with the workpiece on the cross-slide, and a long boring bar mounted between centers on the lathe. And I would love to see a milling machine making the spindle for my lathe. The length to width ratio is such that it would need to be supported at both ends. That is easy to do on a lathe, but not so on a milling machine -- except perhaps with the overarm of a horizontal milling machine, intended to support the far end of the arbor. Granted, things like the gears are best done by a mix of machines. Blanks turned to size on the lathe, and then the gear teeth cut on a horizontal spindle mill with an index head -- or in commercial quantities, cut on a gear hobbing machine, which is neither a mill nor a lathe. Which is more versatile???? I don't know. I feel that it is easier to do some limited milling on a lathe (with the proper accessories) than to do most lathe work on a milling machine (unless you have a *big* CNC milling machine with fancy software for things like thread milling and such -- an even that would have difficulty making a long cylindrical part like either the spindle of the lathe, or the leadscrews. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:26:42 +0000, Pete C. wrote:
What holds all those cylindrical parts together? Parts that were milled mostly, and while you can inexpensively purchase shafts, pulleys, pins and bolts off the shelf, you can not purchase the pieces to hold it all together. How often do you make your own bolts anyway vs. purchase quality bolts like perhaps grade 8 which would be difficult to produce yourself? I had to make a gib screw for my lathe. It was basically a 1/4-20 SHCS with a very large head (I think it was 1/2" OD by 1/2" long). How would you make that on a milling machine (and you can't use attachments, or else I can use a milling attachment on a lathe to make the framework for my hypothetical machine)? |
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 22:29:19 -0700, Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
Still, when starting out, a lathe seems so much more natural, and is an easier way to begin machining, considering you have only two dimensions over which to worry. Further, it's a lot cheaper to grind cutting tools for a lathe than to purchase typical milling cutters, most of which can not be hand sharpened. And you also learn a lot about cutter geometry when grinding your own single point tools. Doesn't take fancy equipment to make a fine tool bit from a blank, but one can't even properly sharpen a milling cutter without specialized equipment. I guess it really depends on what one's objective is. I presume that others are like myself, and like to learn things from the bottom up. That's not to say that I'm not ambitious about the things that I want to do, but I've "over-bought" in the past and then realized that I didn't have the skills needed to put the purchased item to good use. I think I was smart when I bought a lathe as my first legitimate machine tool as it gave me more opportunity to learn the rudiments of machining. Its a deep subject and its easy to get in over your head when you're new at it. |
"Artemia Salina" wrote in message ... snip---- I had to make a gib screw for my lathe. It was basically a 1/4-20 SHCS with a very large head (I think it was 1/2" OD by 1/2" long). How would you make that on a milling machine (and you can't use attachments, or else I can use a milling attachment on a lathe to make the framework for my hypothetical machine)? It can be done using a boring head to make the turns, and a die for the thread. No special tools in this case, and no big deal, really, but I agree with you------there's no substitute for the proper machine for the job. The best training that a machinist can receive is to work in a job shop that is fairly well equipped, and accepts *good* work, something like from the aero-space industry, where slop work isn't acceptable. Given the proper attitude, a machinist comes away from such work with exceptional setup and manufacturing skills. I can say with total honesty that the 18 months I spent in just such a shop taught me more than my apprenticeship did. You get very good at doing the job with the equipment at hand. Harold |
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message ... In article IasKe.5239$0d.488@trnddc03, Clif Holland wrote: "Gil HASH" wrote in message ... 'lo Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) Just an observation. With a mill you can make a lathe. A lathe cannot make a mill. This is the reverse of the common wisdom. "The lathe is the only tool which can build itself." (In reality, a larger lathe can make a smaller one.) This can even include a lathe boring and facing holes in castings which are bolted to a faceplate. Or even line boring, with the workpiece on the cross-slide, and a long boring bar mounted between centers on the lathe. And I would love to see a milling machine making the spindle for my lathe. The length to width ratio is such that it would need to be supported at both ends. That is easy to do on a lathe, but not so on a milling machine -- except perhaps with the overarm of a horizontal milling machine, intended to support the far end of the arbor. Granted, things like the gears are best done by a mix of machines. Blanks turned to size on the lathe, and then the gear teeth cut on a horizontal spindle mill with an index head -- or in commercial quantities, cut on a gear hobbing machine, which is neither a mill nor a lathe. Which is more versatile???? I don't know. I feel that it is easier to do some limited milling on a lathe (with the proper accessories) than to do most lathe work on a milling machine (unless you have a *big* CNC milling machine with fancy software for things like thread milling and such -- an even that would have difficulty making a long cylindrical part like either the spindle of the lathe, or the leadscrews. Enjoy, DoN. When it goes full circle, it's quite apparent why there is a wide variety of machine tools, eh? Harold |
Thanks all
With all posts my choice gets more and more difficult but it's very very interesting ;-) |
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:28:42 GMT, Ignoramus23461
wrote: On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:50:15 +0400, Gil HASH wrote: 'lo Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) You cannot do threading on a mill... Difficult to make conical things also... (unless I am missing something) i Ah...yes you can. Gunner The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long |
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:26:42 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote: etc. This vital knowledge and experience was directly transferable to use on the milling machine when I got around to buying it. I have both a lathe and a mill, and the mill gets more use by a 5:1 factor or better. Pete C. And my lathes get more use then any of the mills I have. Gunner The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long |
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 02:15:31 -0400, Artemia Salina
wrote: I had to make a gib screw for my lathe. It was basically a 1/4-20 SHCS with a very large head (I think it was 1/2" OD by 1/2" long). How would you make that on a milling machine (and you can't use attachments, or else I can use a milling attachment on a lathe to make the framework for my hypothetical machine)? helical interpolation http://www.sct-usa.com/millhelp.asp Gunner The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long |
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:25:33 +0400, "Gil HASH"
wrote: Thanks all With all posts my choice gets more and more difficult but it's very very interesting ;-) Get the lathe. Learn to use it. Then get a mill. Tools are good. Now the big question..is whether you should get a horizontal or vertical mill. Gunner The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long |
Gunner wrote:
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:25:33 +0400, "Gil HASH" wrote: Thanks all With all posts my choice gets more and more difficult but it's very very interesting ;-) Get the lathe. Learn to use it. Then get a mill. Tools are good. Now the big question..is whether you should get a horizontal or vertical mill. No question - get a H/V if you can find one. If you can't find a H/V probably go for a V first since it's a bit more intuitive and I think tool changes are faster. Still look for a H and dividing head after for cutting gears and similar. Pete C. |
I would consider a 3 in 1 machine- look at www.shoptask.com
You will get a lot of negatives on this board about combo machines in general, but mostly from people who have never had one or bought one of those 695.00 cheapies. "Gil HASH" wrote in message ... 'lo Xcuze me for the newbie's strange question of the day : Can a lathe be replaced by a milling machine for quite all metalworking? In another terms, a milling machine is more universal than a lathe or not? (It's for me : buying first lathe or milling machine?) |
Gil HASH wrote:
Thanks all With all posts my choice gets more and more difficult but it's very very interesting ;-) There are some lathes that have pretty good milling attachments for them, especially smaller ones. I have a Sherline lathe, the milling attachment works great. Only does small stuff, but it is great for that. |
"Gil HASH" wrote in message ... Thanks all With all posts my choice gets more and more difficult but it's very very interesting ;-) Here's something that hasn't been mentioned before .. or maybe I missed it. For a newbie, I think that the learning progression is very important. I learned to use a lathe before a mill, and I'm glad I did it in that order. The lathe is a lot easier to learn than the mill. In lathe work, it is easy to tell when the tool is dull and perhaps more important, easy to sharpen yourself. You can't sharpen end mills yourself or even worse, horizontal mill cutters .. unless you are very experienced and/or have some quite fancy tool grinding equipment. The cost of learning, in broken and ruined tooling is significant. Making mistakes with speed, feed, and tool geometry on a single-point lathe tool is far more forgiving and far less expensive. The issues of cutting speed, feed, and depth of cut for lathe work is very intuitive. Usually, when in trouble (chatter, rough finish, etc.) backing off (e.g, lighter cut) solves the problem. In milling, that may be the worst thing to do. I've learned (the hard way) that these issues in milling are often quite counter-intuitive. In lathe work, the direction of the work is fixed... and you can feed toward the headstock (usual) or toward the tailstock .. but it doesn't make a whole lot of difference which if you use a live tailstock center. In milling, the direction of the feed relative to the rotation is very important and can make a big difference in the result. Then there are ll the issues of work holding, which are much more complex in milling. All in all, I'd say that milling is at least five times trickier than lathe work...and ten times more expensive in broken and ruined tools during the learning phase. Boris ------------------------------------- Boris Beizer Ph.D. Seminars and Consulting 1232 Glenbrook Road on Software Testing and Huntingdon Valley, PA 19006 Quality Assurance TEL: 215-572-5580 FAX: 215-886-0144 Email bsquare "at" earthlink.net ------------------------------------------ |
"Gunner" wrote in message ... On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:25:33 +0400, "Gil HASH" wrote: Thanks all With all posts my choice gets more and more difficult but it's very very interesting ;-) Get the lathe. Learn to use it. Then get a mill. Tools are good. Now the big question..is whether you should get a horizontal or vertical mill. You like to mix up the controversy, don't you!!! Talk about trouble makers!!! Boris ------------------------------------- Boris Beizer Ph.D. Seminars and Consulting 1232 Glenbrook Road on Software Testing and Huntingdon Valley, PA 19006 Quality Assurance TEL: 215-572-5580 FAX: 215-886-0144 Email bsquare "at" earthlink.net ------------------------------------------ |
In article , Gunner says...
Now the big question..is whether you should get a horizontal or vertical mill. No, that's not the big question. The first big question is 'how many lathes' but once that's resolved then 'how many milling machines' comes up quite often.... Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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