I've got a dead circuit in the garage which worked fine until I plugged in a
new-to-me tool and apparently shorted the power switch to the machine base.
That created a noticeable spark at the tool and instant power loss to that
outlet. Unplugged the tool, popped downstairs to the main electrical panel
and reset a tripped breaker. Back upstairs but still no power to the outlet
or one other nearby.that is apparently on the same circuit. I turned off
all of the circuit breakers that were likely to power the blown circuit and
pulled the duplex recptacle ffrom the wall for inspection. It has two black
wires on the hot side and two gray wires on the neutral side. Ground is
apparently supplied through the conduit. No evidence of arcing or damage to
the receptacle and there was 40 M-ohm resistance across the hot and
neutral terminals. The receptacle was replaced with a new one, just in
case.

All of the circuit breakers were turned on in the panel, but there is still
no power to the outlet - voltage across the hot/neutral terminals is around
1 VAC. I checked all of the breakers again and they are all in the on
position.

I'm perplexed - what might be causing the problem?

Mike

"Mike Henry" wrote in message
...
I've got a dead circuit in the garage which worked fine until I
plugged in a
new-to-me tool and apparently shorted the power switch to the
machine base.
That created a noticeable spark at the tool and instant power loss
to that
outlet. Unplugged the tool, popped downstairs to the main
electrical panel
and reset a tripped breaker. Back upstairs but still no power to
the outlet
or one other nearby.that is apparently on the same circuit. I
turned off
all of the circuit breakers that were likely to power the blown
circuit and
pulled the duplex recptacle ffrom the wall for inspection. It has
two black
wires on the hot side and two gray wires on the neutral side.
Ground is
apparently supplied through the conduit. No evidence of arcing or
damage to
the receptacle and there was 40 M-ohm resistance across the hot
and
neutral terminals. The receptacle was replaced with a new one, just
in
case.

All of the circuit breakers were turned on in the panel, but there
is still
no power to the outlet - voltage across the hot/neutral terminals is
around
1 VAC. I checked all of the breakers again and they are all in the
on
position.

I'm perplexed - what might be causing the problem?

Mike

You sure there isn't a GFCI upstream of the outlet?

And do you know where the wiring from the breaker goes before it gets
to the outlet? Some do-it-yourself electrician may have left a loose
wire nut somewhere.

Dennis in nca

and, just because the breaker lever says "ON" doesn't mean that it is in
fact ON - I'd start by being sure that there is voltage coming out of the
breaker - if yes, then you can follow the circuit and see where it goes away
"rigger" wrote in message
oups.com...
And do you know where the wiring from the breaker goes before it gets
to the outlet? Some do-it-yourself electrician may have left a loose
wire nut somewhere.

Dennis in nca

On 2 Jul 2005 21:53:24 -0700, the renowned "rigger"
wrote:

And do you know where the wiring from the breaker goes before it gets
to the outlet? Some do-it-yourself electrician may have left a loose
wire nut somewhere.

Dennis in nca

I fixed a dead outlet in the (professionally wired) basement by
finding the junction where the electrician had nicked the wire. It
broke, leaving the outlet dead. It was a PITA to find, at least for
me.

I doubt that's the exact problem here, but if it was wired using the
push-in holes of receptacles it could have burned one of those in
another box.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

"Rick" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Mike Henry" wrote in message
...
I've got a dead circuit in the garage which worked fine until I
plugged in a
new-to-me tool and apparently shorted the power switch to the
machine base.
That created a noticeable spark at the tool and instant power loss
to that
outlet. Unplugged the tool, popped downstairs to the main
electrical panel
and reset a tripped breaker. Back upstairs but still no power to
the outlet
or one other nearby.that is apparently on the same circuit. I
turned off
all of the circuit breakers that were likely to power the blown
circuit and
pulled the duplex recptacle ffrom the wall for inspection. It has
two black
wires on the hot side and two gray wires on the neutral side.
Ground is
apparently supplied through the conduit. No evidence of arcing or
damage to
the receptacle and there was 40 M-ohm resistance across the hot
and
neutral terminals. The receptacle was replaced with a new one, just
in
case.

All of the circuit breakers were turned on in the panel, but there
is still
no power to the outlet - voltage across the hot/neutral terminals is
around
1 VAC. I checked all of the breakers again and they are all in the
on
position.

I'm perplexed - what might be causing the problem?

Mike

You sure there isn't a GFCI upstream of the outlet?






Be aware of a common GFCI "mousetrap." If the GFIC is wired backward, i.e.,
power connected to the output side and downstream outlets connected to the
input side, it will protect the downstream outlets, but not itself. In
other words, if it trips, the downstream will be dead, but it will have
power itself, leading one to conclude it is not the problem. If you have
GFCIs, it is a real good idea to hit the "test" button to trip it and then
check to make sure it is, itself, off.

Jerry

In article ,
says...

All of the circuit breakers were turned on in the panel, but there is still
no power to the outlet - voltage across the hot/neutral terminals is around
1 VAC. I checked all of the breakers again and they are all in the on
position.



First thing is to check for voltage right at the screw
terminal on the breaker. Maybe the short damaged the
breaker?

Ned Simmons

There are also some breakers which require the handle to be pushed further
"OFF", then "ON" to reset after tripping. Just flipping this type to "ON"
will not reset it.
Don Young

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

All of the circuit breakers were turned on in the panel, but there is
still
no power to the outlet - voltage across the hot/neutral terminals is
around
1 VAC. I checked all of the breakers again and they are all in the on
position.



First thing is to check for voltage right at the screw
terminal on the breaker. Maybe the short damaged the
breaker?

Ned Simmons

As others have noted, check to see that you have not toasted the
breaker. There are some real trash manufacturers of breakers and panels,
some of the breakers will only take a few hard shorts before they act
like a fuse and burn out. Use a voltmeter to check for 120 at the
breaker terminal.

Check to see if you lost the hot or the neutral. On the bad outlet check
the voltage from the hot terminal (black or the narrow blade on the
outside) to ground (round pin). If you get 120 volts or so, you lost the
neutral side.

If that checks ok, you likely opened up a connection **upstream** from
the offending outlet. Classic case of problem and symptom in different
places. Map your circuits by turning off the offending circuit, find ALL
the outlets affected by the one in question. Then open up the closest
good outlet to either of the bad outlets. You may have to try several to
find the culprit.

Look for a wire nut that has one loose or burned wire, it could be
either the black or white/grey. If the outlet is wired as a through
point, you should see one pair of wires to upper set of terminals, the
other pair of wires to the lower set. If these are screws, tighten them.
If they are just pushed in the back, (ACK!!!, I HATE it when people use
those!), push them in and see if they wiggle.

Insert usual comments about working safe, you need to be super aware of
what you are doing if you have wires out, dangling, and exposed. Don't
stand on wet concrete while you do this sort of thing.

Mike Henry wrote:

I've got a dead circuit in the garage which worked fine until I plugged in a
new-to-me tool and apparently shorted the power switch to the machine base.
That created a noticeable spark at the tool and instant power loss to that
outlet. Unplugged the tool, popped downstairs to the main electrical panel
and reset a tripped breaker. Back upstairs but still no power to the outlet
or one other nearby.that is apparently on the same circuit. I turned off
all of the circuit breakers that were likely to power the blown circuit and
pulled the duplex recptacle ffrom the wall for inspection. It has two black
wires on the hot side and two gray wires on the neutral side. Ground is
apparently supplied through the conduit. No evidence of arcing or damage to
the receptacle and there was 40 M-ohm resistance across the hot and
neutral terminals. The receptacle was replaced with a new one, just in
case.

All of the circuit breakers were turned on in the panel, but there is still
no power to the outlet - voltage across the hot/neutral terminals is around
1 VAC. I checked all of the breakers again and they are all in the on
position.

I'm perplexed - what might be causing the problem?

Mike

Thanks for all the suggestions.

As it turns out there is a GFCI in a bathroom adjacent to the garage that
had tripped and which apparently feeds the garage outlet. The GFCI outlet
is not used so we never noticed that it was tripped.

I got off on several tangents in trying to troubleshoot this. This is a
townhome that we purchased new and it looks like the electricians did a
fairly decent job (wires screwed to receptacle terminals) and there were no
worries about what another owner might have done. Aside from not
remembering the bath room GFCI, the main problem was that I couldn't figure
out which breaker was supplying power to the garage outlet and didn't want
to pull the receptacle until I was sure that the wires were unpowered. The
main panel breakers are labeled but a bit more obtusely than I would have
liked. There is a "garage" CB but it turns out to be on a different circuit
and the correct one is labeled only "GFI". I got sidetracked by a GFCI in a
utility room which seemed to be a logical tie point for the garage outlet
parttially because I noticed my wife had partially painted over the
recptacle slots. That was a red herring.

At one point I decided to check voltages from the outlet to hots and
neutrals on a known good circuit. I was getting 12-13 VAC on the hot &
neutral from one pair of wires to the outlet and 68-72 VAC from the other
pair of hot/neutral wires. Is that normal?

As an unexpected bonus, I did find one GFCI in the house that filed to test
properly. It's located directly below the main electrical panel between two
window wells. I replaced that one today.

Some time spent mapping CBs and circuits is probably in order against the
next time something like this happens.

Mike

"RoyJ" wrote in message
k.net...
As others have noted, check to see that you have not toasted the breaker.
There are some real trash manufacturers of breakers and panels, some of
the breakers will only take a few hard shorts before they act like a fuse
and burn out. Use a voltmeter to check for 120 at the breaker terminal.

Check to see if you lost the hot or the neutral. On the bad outlet check
the voltage from the hot terminal (black or the narrow blade on the
outside) to ground (round pin). If you get 120 volts or so, you lost the
neutral side.

If that checks ok, you likely opened up a connection **upstream** from the
offending outlet. Classic case of problem and symptom in different places.
Map your circuits by turning off the offending circuit, find ALL the
outlets affected by the one in question. Then open up the closest good
outlet to either of the bad outlets. You may have to try several to find
the culprit.

Look for a wire nut that has one loose or burned wire, it could be either
the black or white/grey. If the outlet is wired as a through point, you
should see one pair of wires to upper set of terminals, the other pair of
wires to the lower set. If these are screws, tighten them. If they are
just pushed in the back, (ACK!!!, I HATE it when people use those!), push
them in and see if they wiggle.

Insert usual comments about working safe, you need to be super aware of
what you are doing if you have wires out, dangling, and exposed. Don't
stand on wet concrete while you do this sort of thing.

Mike Henry wrote:

I've got a dead circuit in the garage which worked fine until I plugged
in a new-to-me tool and apparently shorted the power switch to the
machine base. That created a noticeable spark at the tool and instant
power loss to that outlet. Unplugged the tool, popped downstairs to the
main electrical panel and reset a tripped breaker. Back upstairs but
still no power to the outlet or one other nearby.that is apparently on
the same circuit. I turned off all of the circuit breakers that were
likely to power the blown circuit and pulled the duplex recptacle ffrom
the wall for inspection. It has two black wires on the hot side and two
gray wires on the neutral side. Ground is apparently supplied through
the conduit. No evidence of arcing or damage to the receptacle and there
was 40 M-ohm resistance across the hot and neutral terminals. The
receptacle was replaced with a new one, just in case.

All of the circuit breakers were turned on in the panel, but there is
still no power to the outlet - voltage across the hot/neutral terminals
is around 1 VAC. I checked all of the breakers again and they are all in
the on position.

I'm perplexed - what might be causing the problem?

Mike

"Mike Henry" wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the suggestions.

As it turns out there is a GFCI in a bathroom adjacent to the garage
that
had tripped and which apparently feeds the garage outlet. The GFCI
outlet
is not used so we never noticed that it was tripped.

I got off on several tangents in trying to troubleshoot this. This
is a
townhome that we purchased new and it looks like the electricians
did a
fairly decent job (wires screwed to receptacle terminals) and there
were no
worries about what another owner might have done. Aside from not
remembering the bath room GFCI, the main problem was that I couldn't
figure
out which breaker was supplying power to the garage outlet and
didn't want
to pull the receptacle until I was sure that the wires were
unpowered. The
main panel breakers are labeled but a bit more obtusely than I would
have
liked. There is a "garage" CB but it turns out to be on a different
circuit
and the correct one is labeled only "GFI". I got sidetracked by a
GFCI in a
utility room which seemed to be a logical tie point for the garage
outlet
parttially because I noticed my wife had partially painted over the
recptacle slots. That was a red herring.

At one point I decided to check voltages from the outlet to hots
and
neutrals on a known good circuit. I was getting 12-13 VAC on the
hot &
neutral from one pair of wires to the outlet and 68-72 VAC from the
other
pair of hot/neutral wires. Is that normal?

Did you use a digital voltmeter to measure this by any chance?

"Rick" wrote in message
link.net...

"Mike Henry" wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the suggestions.

As it turns out there is a GFCI in a bathroom adjacent to the garage
that
had tripped and which apparently feeds the garage outlet. The GFCI
outlet
is not used so we never noticed that it was tripped.

I got off on several tangents in trying to troubleshoot this. This
is a
townhome that we purchased new and it looks like the electricians
did a
fairly decent job (wires screwed to receptacle terminals) and there
were no
worries about what another owner might have done. Aside from not
remembering the bath room GFCI, the main problem was that I couldn't
figure
out which breaker was supplying power to the garage outlet and
didn't want
to pull the receptacle until I was sure that the wires were
unpowered. The
main panel breakers are labeled but a bit more obtusely than I would
have
liked. There is a "garage" CB but it turns out to be on a different
circuit
and the correct one is labeled only "GFI". I got sidetracked by a
GFCI in a
utility room which seemed to be a logical tie point for the garage
outlet
parttially because I noticed my wife had partially painted over the
recptacle slots. That was a red herring.

At one point I decided to check voltages from the outlet to hots
and
neutrals on a known good circuit. I was getting 12-13 VAC on the
hot &
neutral from one pair of wires to the outlet and 68-72 VAC from the
other
pair of hot/neutral wires. Is that normal?

Did you use a digital voltmeter to measure this by any chance?


Yep, it was a digital VOM - would analog have given different results?

Yes, an analog volt meter is definitely more reliable than a lot of DMMs for
AC volts.

With a DMM sitting on a table, not connected to any circuit, you might
notice that if you only hold a single meter lead tip with your fingers, that
the reading jumps around.

A quick check for the relative quality of a DMM is to set it on the lowest
voltage range with no leads attached. The display should be zero or a very
low reading that doesn't fluctuate. Fluctuation can indicate that there is
no shielding, or that it's inadequate, and some low-end meters are the
worst.

Depending upon the design of the DMM meter's input and conversion circuitry,
the readings can be very unreliable, especially when checking for AC
voltages.

Generally, the only analog AC meters that will give unusual-looking
readings, are the amplified ones that are intended to measure very small
potentials in the micro or millivolt potentials (not for AC house/building
wiring troubleshooting).

WB
...............

"Mike Henry" wrote in message
...

Did you use a digital voltmeter to measure this by any chance?


Yep, it was a digital VOM - would analog have given different results?






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Glad you isolated your problem. Just a comment about digital meters: A low
battery can give bad readings.

Ace


"Mike Henry" wrote in message
...

"Rick" wrote in message
link.net...

"Mike Henry" wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the suggestions.

As it turns out there is a GFCI in a bathroom adjacent to the garage
that
had tripped and which apparently feeds the garage outlet. The GFCI
outlet
is not used so we never noticed that it was tripped.

I got off on several tangents in trying to troubleshoot this. This
is a
townhome that we purchased new and it looks like the electricians
did a
fairly decent job (wires screwed to receptacle terminals) and there
were no
worries about what another owner might have done. Aside from not
remembering the bath room GFCI, the main problem was that I couldn't
figure
out which breaker was supplying power to the garage outlet and
didn't want
to pull the receptacle until I was sure that the wires were
unpowered. The
main panel breakers are labeled but a bit more obtusely than I would
have
liked. There is a "garage" CB but it turns out to be on a different
circuit
and the correct one is labeled only "GFI". I got sidetracked by a
GFCI in a
utility room which seemed to be a logical tie point for the garage
outlet
parttially because I noticed my wife had partially painted over the
recptacle slots. That was a red herring.

At one point I decided to check voltages from the outlet to hots
and
neutrals on a known good circuit. I was getting 12-13 VAC on the
hot &
neutral from one pair of wires to the outlet and 68-72 VAC from the
other
pair of hot/neutral wires. Is that normal?

Did you use a digital voltmeter to measure this by any chance?


Yep, it was a digital VOM - would analog have given different results?