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| Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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Welding How-to Advice
Ok, long story but I started the current project with a Harbor Freight
Mig welder. 2 days, 10 inches of bead and 8 hours of maintenance later I got ****ed and visited the local welding emporium, where they fixed me up with a Lincoln SP-135+ and a cart for a good price. Like night and day. Lincoln units are highly recommended for those considering buying. Harbor Freight units are not. Now to the sought-for advice: The situation is a lot of joints involving a vertical piece sitting on a horizontal piece. It seems that when I strike the arc, it will jump to either the horizontal surface, or the vertical surface, but not both, so running the puddle in the corner where the two meet is not possible. I'm no welder by any means. Just a home hack. But I've done a little stick welding and never encountered this problem. I've been dealing with it by running one bead on each surface as close to the corner as I can get it, and then running a third bead on top of those to tie it all together. Is this anywhere close to correct, or normal? If it matters I'm using .024 wire and 75% argon, on the advice of the local shop. The project is a table, using 2-1/2" square 1/8" wall steel tube for frame and legs. 2-1/2" is probably overkill for the purpose (table saw outfeed) but its what I had in the pile, for free, so I'm using it. TIA |
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ground both pieces *very* well, grind them,
make sure ground clamp is clean.. I have run into situations where you had to weld a bead on each surface, and one final connecting bead. Can you post pics of your setup? Rich |
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On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:55:46 -0400, LP
wrote: Ok, long story but I started the current project with a Harbor Freight Mig welder. 2 days, 10 inches of bead and 8 hours of maintenance later I got ****ed and visited the local welding emporium, where they fixed me up with a Lincoln SP-135+ and a cart for a good price. Like night and day. Lincoln units are highly recommended for those considering buying. Harbor Freight units are not. Now to the sought-for advice: The situation is a lot of joints involving a vertical piece sitting on a horizontal piece. It seems that when I strike the arc, it will jump to either the horizontal surface, or the vertical surface, but not both, so running the puddle in the corner where the two meet is not possible. I'm no welder by any means. Just a home hack. But I've done a little stick welding and never encountered this problem. I've been dealing with it by running one bead on each surface as close to the corner as I can get it, and then running a third bead on top of those to tie it all together. Is this anywhere close to correct, or normal? If it matters I'm using .024 wire and 75% argon, on the advice of the local shop. The project is a table, using 2-1/2" square 1/8" wall steel tube for frame and legs. 2-1/2" is probably overkill for the purpose (table saw outfeed) but its what I had in the pile, for free, so I'm using it. TIA Sounds like arc blow; the path of the arc is influenced by local magnetic fields. Try moving the ground clamp to various locations to change the current distribution in the workpieces. I have not had this problem with my similar Lincoln. |
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Just as a data point... I'm no welding expert either, but I had a SP 135+
and never experienced this problem. Peter "LP" wrote in message ... Ok, long story but I started the current project with a Harbor Freight Mig welder. 2 days, 10 inches of bead and 8 hours of maintenance later I got ****ed and visited the local welding emporium, where they fixed me up with a Lincoln SP-135+ and a cart for a good price. Like night and day. Lincoln units are highly recommended for those considering buying. Harbor Freight units are not. Now to the sought-for advice: The situation is a lot of joints involving a vertical piece sitting on a horizontal piece. It seems that when I strike the arc, it will jump to either the horizontal surface, or the vertical surface, but not both, so running the puddle in the corner where the two meet is not possible. I'm no welder by any means. Just a home hack. But I've done a little stick welding and never encountered this problem. I've been dealing with it by running one bead on each surface as close to the corner as I can get it, and then running a third bead on top of those to tie it all together. Is this anywhere close to correct, or normal? If it matters I'm using .024 wire and 75% argon, on the advice of the local shop. The project is a table, using 2-1/2" square 1/8" wall steel tube for frame and legs. 2-1/2" is probably overkill for the purpose (table saw outfeed) but its what I had in the pile, for free, so I'm using it. TIA |
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On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:45:06 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote: Sounds like arc blow; the path of the arc is influenced by local magnetic fields. Try moving the ground clamp to various locations to change the current distribution in the workpieces. I have not had this problem with my similar Lincoln. Afterthought: you really shouldn't have much arclength with MIG at that current level. Try going to .030 wire. Maybe your smaller wire is burning back too far. |
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LP wrote:
If it matters I'm using .024 wire and 75% argon, on the advice of the local shop. 0,8mm would be a bit better, but it should work. 1/8" wall steel tube for what amperage (well I know, MAG is with voltage) do you use? Not connecting to both pieces sounds like not enough current. Do the fillets look like a worm? At what distance (nozzle / workpiece) do you hold the nozzle? Nick -- Motormodelle / Engine Models http://www.motor-manufaktur.de todays SPAMfeed: |
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On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:58:50 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote: On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:45:06 -0500, Don Foreman wrote: Sounds like arc blow; the path of the arc is influenced by local magnetic fields. Try moving the ground clamp to various locations to change the current distribution in the workpieces. I have not had this problem with my similar Lincoln. Afterthought: you really shouldn't have much arclength with MIG at that current level. Try going to .030 wire. Maybe your smaller wire is burning back too far. Ok I'll try that working on the ground location. The wire burning back also sounds like a possibility altho I've had no problem keeping the arc about 3/8" out from the tip as recommended by the book. I'll have to make a trip to the welding place to get some .030 wire but I'll do it and let ya know how it works out. |
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#10
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"LP" wrote in message ... Ok, long story but I started the current project with a Harbor Freight Mig welder. 2 days, 10 inches of bead and 8 hours of maintenance later I got ****ed and visited the local welding emporium, where they fixed me up with a Lincoln SP-135+ and a cart for a good price. Congratulations on getting a Lincoln. The 135 is an outstanding machine WITHIN ITS LIMITATIONS. (explanation to follow) Like night and day. Lincoln units are highly recommended for those considering buying. Harbor Freight units are not. HF units are ****. Now to the sought-for advice: The situation is a lot of joints involving a vertical piece sitting on a horizontal piece. It seems that when I strike the arc, it will jump to either the horizontal surface, or the vertical surface, but not both, so running the puddle in the corner where the two meet is not possible. What you need to do is aim the wire to the piece that is horizontal. Have the heat turned up high. Pause to develop a puddle. Let the puddle flow over to the vertical piece. There is a world of difference between pulling the wire and pushing it. There is also a world of difference in the angle at which you attack the metal. Now, for what I stated above. Turn up the heat. Use bigger wire. BUT, then you approach the limitations of your machine, which is the duty cycle. That is how much welding you can do before you have to let the thing cool off. Some are very low, like 20%, meaning you have to let it cool down four times as long as you weld. I'm no welder by any means. Just a home hack. But I've done a little stick welding and never encountered this problem. I've been dealing with it by running one bead on each surface as close to the corner as I can get it, and then running a third bead on top of those to tie it all together. You may get "cold lap" which is one layer on each other, and not fused together. You need to turn up the heat and get bigger wire, and watch for it to dig a crater, and then fill it up, letting it overflow, and being pushed towards the vertical piece. Is this anywhere close to correct, or normal? If it matters I'm using .024 wire and 75% argon, on the advice of the local shop. It matters big time. Use .030 wire. The project is a table, using 2-1/2" square 1/8" wall steel tube for frame and legs. 2-1/2" is probably overkill for the purpose (table saw outfeed) but its what I had in the pile, for free, so I'm using it. TIA You can safely weld this metal with bigger wire, higher heat, higher wire speed, and the "wash" technique. Just weld a bit, and let your machine cool off. It is good anyway to do intermittent welds to keep down the distortion. Do circles to get a bigger puddle, and watch that your heat is high enough that you can see it slightly eat the base metal away at the front of the crucible. Steve, a weldor since 1974, 6 topside certs, and underwater welding and cutting experience, former State of Nevada Licensed Steel Erection Contractor |
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#12
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On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:15:55 -0400, "Jeff Sellers"
wrote: On 24 Jun 2005 13:59:42 -0700, wrote: .Did i mention this stuff is galvanized? I've been grinding it off some joints, not on others, result seems to be the same either way Yep I've got a big ol' 30" floor fan running air across the area where I'm working. Be careful not to blow away your shielding gas with that fan...... Jeff Point taken. I dont think its happening but I'll definitely watch for it. I've done a couple of test beads with the gas off (duh moments) and there's a real visible difference. But I hadn't considered this. Thanks for the heads up. |
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#13
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On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:18:56 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote: "LP" wrote in message .. . Ok, long story but I started the current project with a Harbor Freight Mig welder. 2 days, 10 inches of bead and 8 hours of maintenance later I got ****ed and visited the local welding emporium, where they fixed me up with a Lincoln SP-135+ and a cart for a good price. Congratulations on getting a Lincoln. The 135 is an outstanding machine WITHIN ITS LIMITATIONS. (explanation to follow) Like night and day. Lincoln units are highly recommended for those considering buying. Harbor Freight units are not. HF units are ****. Now to the sought-for advice: The situation is a lot of joints involving a vertical piece sitting on a horizontal piece. It seems that when I strike the arc, it will jump to either the horizontal surface, or the vertical surface, but not both, so running the puddle in the corner where the two meet is not possible. What you need to do is aim the wire to the piece that is horizontal. Have the heat turned up high. Pause to develop a puddle. Let the puddle flow over to the vertical piece. There is a world of difference between pulling the wire and pushing it. There is also a world of difference in the angle at which you attack the metal. Now, for what I stated above. Turn up the heat. Use bigger wire. BUT, then you approach the limitations of your machine, which is the duty cycle. That is how much welding you can do before you have to let the thing cool off. Some are very low, like 20%, meaning you have to let it cool down four times as long as you weld. I'm no welder by any means. Just a home hack. But I've done a little stick welding and never encountered this problem. I've been dealing with it by running one bead on each surface as close to the corner as I can get it, and then running a third bead on top of those to tie it all together. You may get "cold lap" which is one layer on each other, and not fused together. You need to turn up the heat and get bigger wire, and watch for it to dig a crater, and then fill it up, letting it overflow, and being pushed towards the vertical piece. Is this anywhere close to correct, or normal? If it matters I'm using .024 wire and 75% argon, on the advice of the local shop. It matters big time. Use .030 wire. The project is a table, using 2-1/2" square 1/8" wall steel tube for frame and legs. 2-1/2" is probably overkill for the purpose (table saw outfeed) but its what I had in the pile, for free, so I'm using it. TIA You can safely weld this metal with bigger wire, higher heat, higher wire speed, and the "wash" technique. Just weld a bit, and let your machine cool off. It is good anyway to do intermittent welds to keep down the distortion. Do circles to get a bigger puddle, and watch that your heat is high enough that you can see it slightly eat the base metal away at the front of the crucible. Steve, a weldor since 1974, 6 topside certs, and underwater welding and cutting experience, former State of Nevada Licensed Steel Erection Contractor Thanks Steve. General concensus is i need bigger wire and Im off tomorrow to make that purchase. More heat is available and I just have to play with it to find what works. At what gage or thickness would you use the 024 over the 030? I've got two spools of this stuff and I'd hate to think its useless  |
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LP wrote in
: At what gage or thickness would you use the 024 over the 030? I've got two spools of this stuff and I'd hate to think its useless Should be good for thin sheetmetal work where you do not need, nor want a lot of heat, and you do not have large gaps, nor want a large bead. -- Anthony You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make better idiots. Remove sp to reply via email http://www.machines-cnc.net:81/ |
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Now to the sought-for advice: The situation is a lot of joints
involving a vertical piece sitting on a horizontal piece. It seems that when I strike the arc, it will jump to either the horizontal surface, or the vertical surface, but not both, so running the puddle in the corner where the two meet is not possible. Two things come to mind in addition to suggestions by others: 1) Are you using magnets to hold the work? They cause the arc to chase or run from the magnetic field depending on polarity. You say you've stick welded and didn't have the same type of problem but often the home hobbiest has only an AC stick welder and you don't have the problem with AC. 2) You mentioned in one post that you're using a fan to blow away the fumes from welding galvanized metal. That's a good idea but you need to turn up your shielding has and if the fan's strong you may still blow it all away or at least enough to screw up your weld. Best Regards, Keith Marshall "I'm not grown up enough to be so old!" |
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On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 03:19:45 GMT, "Keith Marshall"
wrote: 1) Are you using magnets to hold the work? They cause the arc to chase or run from the magnetic field depending on polarity. You say you've stick welded and didn't have the same type of problem but often the home hobbiest has only an AC stick welder and you don't have the problem with AC. I was doing just that once, using the larger magnets and I thought Id blown up the welder as the arc was weird as hell and all over the place. I felt really stupid when the sudden dawning realization of what was causing it crashed into my tiny lil brain. Shrug Gunner "Considering the events of recent years, the world has a long way to go to regain its credibility and reputation with the US." unknown |
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"LP" wrote At what gage or thickness would you use the 024 over the 030? I've got two spools of this stuff and I'd hate to think its useless I, personally, like to use .030 most all the time. Makes it easier than changing wires for different projects. If all you are going to be doing is ..065 tubing, or thin stuff, .024 will work. I think the cutoff point will be .125 thick. Once you get the hang of it, you can run your .024 hotter. Steve |
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LP wrote:
If I go much higher or lower I cant seem to maintain a consistent arc. If you go up with the setting, does the wire feed also increase automaticly? I _guess_ no. Go up with the voltage and play with wire feed. There is really nothing like "nonconsistent arc with too much current". Disregarding that you will burn holes. :-) Nozzle to workpiece is as close to 3/8" as I can hold it. 10 times the wire diameter is 'bout right. So this is OK. Nick -- Motormodelle / Engine Models http://www.motor-manufaktur.de todays SPAMfeed: |
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#19
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LP wrote:
I just finished running some test beads. Ground clamp is clean, metal is clean, but 2nd piece wasnt clamped to first, just sitting there. That's OK. I never connected the second piece to ground. If it is halfway clean, it will have contact. After the first little weld, contact is perfect. Will re-try tomorrow with your suggestions and see what happens. It should work with the thin wire too. But your diameter is more for body work. Did i mention this stuff is galvanized? No! I've been grinding it off some joints, not on others, result seems to be the same either way. Grind it off on all. The zinc is nasty healthwise and prevents good joints. Yep I've got a big ol' 30" floor fan running air across the area where I'm working. don't blow away the gas! Try it without fan. Nick -- Motormodelle / Engine Models http://www.motor-manufaktur.de todays SPAMfeed: |
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On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:15:55 -0400, "Jeff Sellers"
wrote: On 24 Jun 2005 13:59:42 -0700, wrote: .Did i mention this stuff is galvanized? I've been grinding it off some joints, not on others, result seems to be the same either way Yep I've got a big ol' 30" floor fan running air across the area where I'm working. Be careful not to blow away your shielding gas with that fan...... Jeff Several mentioned this and to clarify: It's a 3-speed fan, on low. Both front and back shop doors are open. Fan is about twenty feet from the work and is moving air from the back door towards the front at a relatively low rate. I don't think its bothering the gas flow but will certainly make sure of that. |
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On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 03:19:45 GMT, "Keith Marshall"
wrote: Now to the sought-for advice: The situation is a lot of joints involving a vertical piece sitting on a horizontal piece. It seems that when I strike the arc, it will jump to either the horizontal surface, or the vertical surface, but not both, so running the puddle in the corner where the two meet is not possible. Two things come to mind in addition to suggestions by others: 1) Are you using magnets to hold the work? They cause the arc to chase or run from the magnetic field depending on polarity. You say you've stick welded and didn't have the same type of problem but often the home hobbiest has only an AC stick welder and you don't have the problem with AC. No magnets but you're right about the AC stick welder. Thats exactly what it was. 2) You mentioned in one post that you're using a fan to blow away the fumes from welding galvanized metal. That's a good idea but you need to turn up your shielding has and if the fan's strong you may still blow it all away or at least enough to screw up your weld. Best Regards, Keith Marshall "I'm not grown up enough to be so old!" |
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LP wrote:
Not automatic but increased voltage/feed makes sense after I think about it for a bit. I mean, if you go up with the voltage, do you have to readjust feed (more than just a tad)? Are you also aware, that 0,6mm wire needs _double_ the feed rate than a 0,8mm wire? Why? the sectional area of 0,6mm is about half of 0,8mm. to get the same "pound per minute of wire", it takes double the feed rate. I'm still convinced, that you will get it working if you play with the feed. A 0,6mm wire is not so common. Most MAGs are set for 0,8 or 1,0mm wire. You have to adjust (and should be able). Also, could you describe how the arc looks? Is it long (clearly above 2mm)? How does it sound? A hard, more _fast_ hammering sound, or buzzing and irregular? Does the wire get frequently stuck in the wire-nozzle? Nick -- Motormodelle / Engine Models http://www.motor-manufaktur.de todays SPAMfeed: |
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LP wrote:
I don't think its bothering the gas flow but will certainly make sure of that. But you already know how a weld without gas looks like. :-)) If you don't have enough gas, you will have tiny bubbles in the weld. Same as with dirt (grease, oil, etc.). Get rid of the zinc until you know that you can weld and how to set up your MAG. You need a lot of heat to vaporize that sh*t and it makes controlling the puddle _much_ harder. Nick -- Motormodelle / Engine Models http://www.motor-manufaktur.de todays SPAMfeed: |
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I can't help with welding details, but you could work around it by just
welding the *sides* of the joints. I.e., where both surfaces are in the same plane. It would be plenty strong enough for a table. Bob |
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#26
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Thanks to all who responded to my original post.
The solution proved to be going to the larger .030 wire, cranking the voltage up a lot and the feed just a bit. I'm now able to run the bead in the corner of the joint where it belongs and I'm much more confident about the whole thing. Barely 36 hours since my first post and not only is the problem solved but I picked up a lot of useful info in the bargain. Again, thanks a million. You're a good group! |
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#27
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LP wrote:
The solution proved to be going to the larger .030 wire, cranking the voltage up a lot and the feed just a bit. Just out of curiosity: If you about double the feed rate and leave the voltage, can you weld with the thinner (0,6mm) wire? I bet yes! OK, you're too lazy to change the coil... :-)) Oh!! When you switched from the 0,6mm wire to the 0,8mm wire, did you also change the wire jet? *) If not, the shop sold the wrong nozzle/jet _and_ wasn't very good in selling you the 0,6mm wire. *) I don't know how you call it. It's the copper jet where the wire is coming out. Nick -- Motormodelle / Engine Models http://www.motor-manufaktur.de todays SPAMfeed: |
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#29
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LP wrote:
I don't want to be boaring. If you're fed up with my questions and explanations, simply stop answering. I won't mind. I found that with increased feed I couldnt maintain that nice sizzling arc, That nice sizzling sound is a spray arc. You normaly get that when the current ist above 200 Amps (with a 0,8mm wire). That implies that the wall thickness should be above 5mm or so. Yours is lower, so current (eg voltage) is too high. You can't make longer fillets without melting your workpiece to one lump. I guess you made just short welds. Right? If you keep with the sizzling sound with the lower feed rate, the arc starts directly at the wire jet and it will burn it quite fast, or the wire will get stuck. I would say, that your setup still isn't right. as if the wire couldnt melt fast enough to get out of its own way. This is a short-circuit arc. It has the hammering sound. Quite regular, and quite noisy. You have the short-circuit-arc with lower thicknesses, like the one you were talking about (3mm, IIRc). But I have to remember that I'm dealing with "Welding For Real Dummies" here and technique may have a LOT to do with it. It is dammned interesting to understand the physics behind MIG/MAG welding. Buy a good, more theoretical book and try to understand it. It helps _a_ _lot_ to correct errors! Nick -- Motormodelle / Engine Models http://www.motor-manufaktur.de todays SPAMfeed: |
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"LP" wrote I found that with increased feed I couldnt maintain that nice sizzling arc, as if the wire couldnt melt fast enough to get out of its own way. But I have to remember that I'm dealing with "Welding For Real Dummies" here and technique may have a LOT to do with it. Do this just for giggles and grins. It is an important lesson. Set your heat control at the medium position. Weld a little there and notice the sound. Now, try welding at different speeds. You will notice at slower speeds that the molten wire builds up a BB on the end, then when it gets big enough, will transfer to the workpiece. It has a splut splut sound. When it is running at the correct speed, you have the spray, and all you see is a nice arc. Sounds like a nice sizzle. At higher speed, you will see the wire going into the puddle, and really the arc will be somewhat buried. The sizzling sound will be less. If the speed is high enough you will actually feel the wire hitting the base metal. Grasshoppa, you ask the purpose of this lesson............ So that you understand the different types of transfer processes, and their sounds. You will use the slower wire speeds to weld thin stuff, and the faster ones when you want to actually dig into the base metal so that you get more penetration and fusion. After a while, you will be able to just listen and know if your wirespeed is right. You can tell if the heat is right by looking at the shape of your finished bead. Watch the wire as you weld. That will tell you a lot about your speed....... if it is too slow or too fast. Now, for the last lesson. If you can hear it very very clearly, you are doing something WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. You are not wearing ear protection. You don't need it because of the sound levels, but to protect you from the little molten BBs. Watch someone else MIG weld. Now look at all those little red BBs flying all over. It's pretty dramatic when you watch someone else do it. One of those in your ear can mess up the rest of your life. If you ever do get one in there and it only singes some hair and melts some wax, it will scare you pretty good. Your eardrum is about as thick and tough as a piece of waxed paper. Behind that is all sorts of things that get messed up when the seal of your eardrum is broken. I love watching those blondes with big hair weld on TV. They'd be bald in a week if they were in any shop I've worked in. Wear ear protection. I like the spring type because they are easy to take on and off. I think that this is the most common safety violation by welders. If you need to listen to the weld, like to check your wirespeed or to listen to a keyhole on an open root, do so for only a short time. I have welded for thirty years. I once knew a guy that got a bb in his eardrum. His inner ear got infected. They did surgery, and the side of his head was noticeably a different shape from the other. He never welded again. He was never the same again. Point is, it DOES happen, even to very experienced people. Play with your machine. There's not a lot you can do to mess it up. Get so you are familiar with it, and understand it inside and out. And, BTW, there are guides in most machines that will give you the proper heat and wirespeed settings for a particular thickness. Steve |
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#31
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Having become caught up in the hustle and bustle of visits from
out-of-towners, there were several responses to my original post to which I did not respond. This wasn't rudeness on my part. It was just being very busy and being away from home a lot. So to all who were kind enough to reply I extend a very big Thank You. All of you offered some very good advice and got my mind running in the right direction. I'm now confident that with a bit of practice I'll be quite successful. |
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