I do some minor metal work and automotive work in my shop and was wondering
if it is possible to heat parts with propane? I mean realistic to try and do
this. Since my shop has a very large propane tank I thought it might make
sense to just try and use the propane to heat up parts that are stuck or
need to be expanded slightly. I was thinking of trying to cut with it. Is
there anything I can do to get more heat out of the propane?

OR do I need to just go get a set of acetylene and oxygen tanks? What am I
looking at for regulators and tanks (filled?)

You can certainly pre-heat with propane, a regular back yard gas grille
makes an excellent pre heat oven for small parts and in some cases can
be used as a heated welding table. You might need to add fire brick,
depends on what you want/need to do and how. I've used mine for
heating up parts to expand them and get them apart, aluminum cases with
steel bearings in, etc.
You can also cut with propane and oxygen.

It is possible to use propane with oxygen, similar acetylene. It has a
lower heat capacity, but is a lot cheaper. You need to use "dual fuel"
hose though. Regular acetylene hose will break down with propane use.

I don't remember, but I think you can use the same regulators.

Do a search in the archives on oxy/propane.

Does adding the fire bricks to the grill conserve heat or increase the heat?
Also can I mix propane and oxygen just like acetylene and oxygen? Or am I
still just better of getting Acetylene? The reason I don't want to splurge
for the tanks is because my shop can literally go months with use since I'm
away or working offsite on other projects.

You could easily build an awesome hand-held torch using Ron Reil's
plans. I would suggest the improved design using a 1 1/4" to 3/4"
T(elbow?)-adapter and a MIG tip for an orifice. I don't have his URL,
but a google search will find his website. Good luck.

In article . com,
wrote:

You can certainly pre-heat with propane, a regular back yard gas grille
makes an excellent pre heat oven for small parts and in some cases can
be used as a heated welding table. You might need to add fire brick,
depends on what you want/need to do and how. I've used mine for
heating up parts to expand them and get them apart, aluminum cases with
steel bearings in, etc.

CAUTION: THREAD DRIFT ALERT!

AAAAARRRRRGH! Steel anything in aluminum! AAAAAAAARRRRRRGH!

Blasted Quickie wheelchairs, curse them!

Some of the best wheelchairs in the world, except it can be damn near
impossible to work on one. Why? Because they habitually use hardened,
black oxided, fine thread, steel Hex Head Cap Screws in aluminum
assemblies! Dat's Why!

Let those parts go for a couple of years and the aluminum and steel both
corrode and bond to each other stronger than a weld. It has too often
become necessary to drill out the steel screw and replace it with a
through bolt--Or just replace the entire assembly--If it can be taken
off at all-- dying--alone--in the rain. (Oops. Disregard that last:
Hemmingway Syndrome. Sorry.)

Can't heat them because they're usually in places on the wheelchair
where doing so would ruin some other vital subassembly.

And they've never heard of Never-Seize, either!

I tend to think of Mobility Device Engineer as an oxymoron much like
Automotive Engineer.

If there is _any_ way to overcomplicate an assembly or subassembly,
Quickie will find it, use it, and perpetuate it.

Damn shame their equipment is otherwise so excellent.

Oh, yeah, On-Topic: Damn good idea about the gas grill! How many minutes
per side, any marinade?

You would probably be happiest with an oxy-propane torch system. This
would enable you to heat, cut, and braze, but not weld. Ask your local
welding shop about it. Very portable, you can focus the heat very
narrowly, very versatile.

I have a "Red Dragon" propane-air torch. Good for heating up sheet
copper to anneal it, but not enough heat to get steel bar red hot for
bending. Spreads the heat widely, several inch area.

I also have a homemade propane blacksmith forge. This works fine, gets
steel red hot for bending or forging.

I have an oxy-acetylene torch, but my understanding is that the
oxy-propane torches are very similar.

Out of the three heating appliances described above, the oxy-acetylene
torch is the most versatile, which is why I suggest an oxy-propane torch
for your use.

Richard



HotRod wrote:
I do some minor metal work and automotive work in my shop and was wondering
if it is possible to heat parts with propane? I mean realistic to try and do
this. Since my shop has a very large propane tank I thought it might make
sense to just try and use the propane to heat up parts that are stuck or
need to be expanded slightly. I was thinking of trying to cut with it. Is
there anything I can do to get more heat out of the propane?

OR do I need to just go get a set of acetylene and oxygen tanks? What am I
looking at for regulators and tanks (filled?)

Get a hold of a copy of " Gas burners for furnaces, forges, and
kilns " It has plans to build various sizes of propane burners.

Dan

On Tue, 17 May 2005 09:44:53 -0400, "HotRod"
wrote:

I do some minor metal work and automotive work in my shop and was wondering
if it is possible to heat parts with propane? I mean realistic to try and do
this. Since my shop has a very large propane tank I thought it might make
sense to just try and use the propane to heat up parts that are stuck or
need to be expanded slightly. I was thinking of trying to cut with it. Is
there anything I can do to get more heat out of the propane?

OR do I need to just go get a set of acetylene and oxygen tanks? What am I
looking at for regulators and tanks (filled?)

Oxypropane heats well, and propane is considerably cheaper than
acetylene. Oxypropane has higher heat content though lower flame
temperature than acetylene. It's useless for welding steel, but it
work fine for heating, cutting, brazing and soldering. Most
oxyacetylene (aka oxyfuel) torches work fine with oxypropane.

A 40 cu ft oxy bottle will run a bit less than $100. Figure $50 to
$75 for a single-stage regulator with gages. You can get torch kits
(torch, tips, regulators and gages) from a number of places.

ARRrrgh !!! Stoppit !
Thats JUST what I don't need (-:

Fire brick will slow the heating, but retain heat and slow the cooling
- either of which might be good or bad according to what you're trying
to do.
Yes, the acetylene regulator plugs right into a 20 lb propane gas
grille tank, at least the older ones that have the internal left hand
thread.
I didn't know about the dual use hose issue, thanks, I guess I'd better
update my equipment )-:

HotRod wrote:

I do some minor metal work and automotive work in my shop and was wondering
if it is possible to heat parts with propane? I mean realistic to try and do
this. Since my shop has a very large propane tank I thought it might make
sense to just try and use the propane to heat up parts that are stuck or
need to be expanded slightly. I was thinking of trying to cut with it. Is
there anything I can do to get more heat out of the propane?

OR do I need to just go get a set of acetylene and oxygen tanks? What am I
looking at for regulators and tanks (filled?)




I don't know the whole story or applications you want to do but the
"weed" burner that horrible freight sells (I think it's on sale for 20
bucks now) is is like a flame thrower and puts out a LOT of heat fast.
It'd probably make a good pre-heater for large parts on the cheap. If
nothin else, it's a fun toy to have around to light the BBQ with



Koz

Can anyone tell me if I can use propane instead of acetylene with an
oxy/acetylene torch kit. Or do I need to buy regulators specific for
oxy/propane? Also does anyone know how many PSI the propane needs to be? I'm
trying to figure out if I splice into my propane line (at shop) before the
regulator or after?

Any Canadian sources for oxy/propane torch and regulators?

THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP

HotRod wrote:
I do some minor metal work and automotive work in my shop and was
wondering
if it is possible to heat parts with propane? I mean realistic to try
and do
this. Since my shop has a very large propane tank I thought it might
make
sense to just try and use the propane to heat up parts that are stuck
or
need to be expanded slightly. I was thinking of trying to cut with
it. Is
there anything I can do to get more heat out of the propane?

OR do I need to just go get a set of acetylene and oxygen tanks? What
am I
looking at for regulators and tanks (filled?)

great article about MAPP, might help.
http://yarchive.net/metal/mapp.html

good luck,
walt

wrote in message
oups.com...
ARRrrgh !!! Stoppit !
Thats JUST what I don't need (-:

Fire brick will slow the heating

No, not really. Using air/propane anyway.

My vote is also for a Reil burner. I use a 3/4" water pipe EZ burner with
0.030" MIG tip for damned near all heating.

It will braze 3/8" steel rod just fine in the open, but a firebrick or three
really gets it going. Something about reflected heat...

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

In article
,
John Husvar wrote:

Some of the best wheelchairs in the world, except it can be damn near
impossible to work on one. Why? Because they habitually use hardened,
black oxided, fine thread, steel Hex Head Cap Screws in aluminum
assemblies! Dat's Why!

Let those parts go for a couple of years and the aluminum and steel both
corrode and bond to each other stronger than a weld. It has too often
become necessary to drill out the steel screw and replace it with a
through bolt--Or just replace the entire assembly--If it can be taken
off at all-- dying--alone--in the rain. (Oops. Disregard that last:
Hemmingway Syndrome. Sorry.)

Can't heat them because they're usually in places on the wheelchair
where doing so would ruin some other vital subassembly.

IIRC, nitric acid dissolves steel and not aluminum.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

HotRod wrote:

Does adding the fire bricks to the grill conserve heat or increase the heat?
Also can I mix propane and oxygen just like acetylene and oxygen? Or am I
still just better of getting Acetylene? The reason I don't want to splurge
for the tanks is because my shop can literally go months with use since I'm
away or working offsite on other projects.


The bricks store heat and provide a better transfer function to the work.
They work by IR radiation not a smaller flame but now the whole inside or
surface.

Once the bricks are red hot, the flame can be turned off and heating will
continue. But to be sure - keep the flame on for heat losses to the 'work' and
world.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

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http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

In article ,
Nick Hull wrote:

In article
,
John Husvar wrote:

Some of the best wheelchairs in the world, except it can be damn near
impossible to work on one. Why? Because they habitually use hardened,
black oxided, fine thread, steel Hex Head Cap Screws in aluminum
assemblies! Dat's Why!

Sorry, I misspoke in the OP: They are socket head, not hex head.


Let those parts go for a couple of years and the aluminum and steel both
corrode and bond to each other stronger than a weld. It has too often
become necessary to drill out the steel screw and replace it with a
through bolt--Or just replace the entire assembly--If it can be taken
off at all-- dying--alone--in the rain. (Oops. Disregard that last:
Hemmingway Syndrome. Sorry.)

Can't heat them because they're usually in places on the wheelchair
where doing so would ruin some other vital subassembly.

IIRC, nitric acid dissolves steel and not aluminum.

Don't know about that myself, but I might try it as an experiment.
Problem is usually time. Often the user is in the chair while we work,
God help 'em!

So far we've tried every oil and penetrant we could find, from the
(virtually useless for this) WD-40 to PB Blaster and a number of CRC
products, Gunk Liquid Wrench, etc, etc.

Once that corrosion occurs, it's tough to get the metals to separate.
Somehow a 1/4-28 Socket Head screw in aluminum can be nearly impossible
to loosen. We have numerous twisted Allen wrenches to witness.

We usually put some anti-sieze compound on the screws when we
reassemble. So far that hasn't caused us any problems with screws
staying tight, but loosening easily when needed.

Any ideas more than welcome, Thanks. The factory just shrugs the problem
off.

In article , John
Husvar says...

Once that corrosion occurs, it's tough to get the metals to separate.
Somehow a 1/4-28 Socket Head screw in aluminum can be nearly impossible
to loosen. We have numerous twisted Allen wrenches to witness.

We usually put some anti-sieze compound on the screws when we
reassemble. So far that hasn't caused us any problems with screws
staying tight, but loosening easily when needed.

You have discovered something that motorcycle folks have known
about for a long, long time. That steel fasteners in aluminum
don't mix well when they get wet.

Stainless fasteners are a good approach, and of course moly-based
anti-sieze is a good preventative. If you are worried about loosening
then nyloc nuts are nice. As for loosening up stuck items the
difference in thermal expansion rates can sometimes be used to
advantage, I use an industrial heat gun for this.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article ,
jim rozen wrote:

In article , John
Husvar says...

Once that corrosion occurs, it's tough to get the metals to separate.
Somehow a 1/4-28 Socket Head screw in aluminum can be nearly impossible
to loosen. We have numerous twisted Allen wrenches to witness.

We usually put some anti-sieze compound on the screws when we
reassemble. So far that hasn't caused us any problems with screws
staying tight, but loosening easily when needed.

You have discovered something that motorcycle folks have known
about for a long, long time. That steel fasteners in aluminum
don't mix well when they get wet.

Stainless fasteners are a good approach, and of course moly-based
anti-sieze is a good preventative. If you are worried about loosening
then nyloc nuts are nice. As for loosening up stuck items the
difference in thermal expansion rates can sometimes be used to
advantage, I use an industrial heat gun for this.

Jim

Good thought!
Thank you.
Might help a lot.

ANYONE KNOW if I can use an Oxy/acetylene setup with Oxy/Propane? or do I
need to buy a special rig?

"HotRod" wrote in message
...
ANYONE KNOW if I can use an Oxy/acetylene setup with Oxy/Propane? or do I
need to buy a special rig?

I think you need a set of mapp hoses, not sure oxy-acetylene would work.
(thought i read it here somewhere)
I also found an archived post about the regulators. According to the post,
acetylene regulator will work with propane, but propane regulator wont work
on acetylene gas. I would call a welding supply store in your area.
Here's the archived post link:
http://yarchive.net/metal/acetylene_regulators.html
good luck,
walt

On Wed, 18 May 2005 10:29:09 -0400, "HotRod"
wrote:

ANYONE KNOW if I can use an Oxy/acetylene setup with Oxy/Propane? or do I
need to buy a special rig?


Generally the better OXY-ACET torch makers sell components that adapt
their torches to OXY-FUEL. For my Harris torch, this is just tips.
You should also use special welding hose referred to as Grade T as
opposed to Grade R. On the regulator, I got myself a propane
regulator. I don't recall if there is any problem using an acet.
regulator with propane, but I have two complete tank sets, so I keep
my propane regulator on my propane bottle perpetually and eliminate
the swapping. I would do my homework before using an acet. regulator
with propane, like call the maker.

BTW, I just finished building a Reil torch yesterday. What a blast,
literally. Ever want to try out a flame thrower? I am going to use
it to fire up a forge.

Vic.

HotRod wrote:
ANYONE KNOW if I can use an Oxy/acetylene setup with Oxy/Propane? or do I
need to buy a special rig?


Yes, you can. You can't weld with propane but it's a mighty cutting
fuel. You need a propane tip, the acetylene tip won't do the job at all.

You may need more pressure than your existing tank regulator will give,
if so, use a tee fitting at the tank valve. You can run any pressure
you like with propane, it's safe at all pressures the tank can provide.
Keep in mind, acetylene is not that way so if you switch to that you'll
not want to push it past 15 psi. Anyway, the pressure isn't so critical
with propane except for the fact that the higher it is, the touchier the
fuel valve on the torch will be. 15 psi is going to be more than
adequate, and keeping it as low as practical will prevent things from
getting too crazy in the event of a leak or severed hose.

Your acet. regulator will fit right on the fitting at the propane tank,
no problems there. As another poster mentioned, you want hose that's
compatable with propane. Hose that isn't will get longer over time,
before it pops, and it makes for a pain- one of a pair of hoses getting
longer and the other not, it wants to curl up.

The place where propane really shines as a cutting fuel is with rusted
steel and multiple layers (such as cutting a nut on a bolt). It's got a
more aggresive flame than acet., but this can also work against you-
cutting bolt heads and wanting to not damage what's beneath them
requires more attention than with acetylene.

The trick to cutting with propane is getting the flame right- you get it
right and it'll outcut acetylene. Light the torch, lay it against a
piece of scrap. Open the fuel valve 'till you have a big, plumey flame
and then start opening the oxygen (If you don't lay it against
something, the fire will often blow out when you start with the oxygen)
Your torch is laying at about a 20 degree angle to the scrap- watch the
flame at the tip as you continue to open the oxygen, the hottest part of
the flame will be a half-inch or so out from the tip when you first
notice it (the flecks of rust on the scrap steel will show red, while
those closer and farther from the tip won't). Continue with more oxygen
'till the hot spot is about a quarter inch from the tip and remember the
distance it's at. That's the part of the flame you want at the point the
cut will start. Fiddle with the oxygen 'till it's where you like it-
that's the only "right" spot.

A propane-fired cutting torch makes an evil hiss- hearing protection is
definitely in order.

John

In article ,
jim rozen wrote:

In article , John
Husvar says...

Once that corrosion occurs, it's tough to get the metals to separate.
Somehow a 1/4-28 Socket Head screw in aluminum can be nearly impossible
to loosen. We have numerous twisted Allen wrenches to witness.

We usually put some anti-sieze compound on the screws when we
reassemble. So far that hasn't caused us any problems with screws
staying tight, but loosening easily when needed.

You have discovered something that motorcycle folks have known
about for a long, long time. That steel fasteners in aluminum
don't mix well when they get wet.

Stainless fasteners are a good approach, and of course moly-based
anti-sieze is a good preventative. If you are worried about loosening
then nyloc nuts are nice. As for loosening up stuck items the
difference in thermal expansion rates can sometimes be used to
advantage, I use an industrial heat gun for this.

I've used a Sears hammer-activated impact wrench to loosen such things,
with considerable success. Like aluminium screws in an aluminium
assembly on a motorcycle. The screws come loose with a very sharp
"Crack!" sound when the weld between inside and outside threads breaks.