I was in stitches after the toilet joke, I appreciate the humor.

I have a GE profile model PNSF31Z01 water softener. I had it installed
in 1999. It regenerates almost daily and uses several 40 pound bags of salt
a month. I have read my owners manual and what I could find for diagnostics
(not much). I am attempting to get it to regenerate less frequently (at a
normal rate like when it was new, every two to 3 weeks), so that I can spend
less time loading it with salt (currently I have to add 40 to 80 pounds
weekly). I use less than the average household's amount of water.

This is what I understand so far. . .
10 inch diameter 35 inch tall cylinder A contains plastic resin beads
4 inch diameter 35 inch tall cylinder B contains a float switch
Plastic Tank contains both cylinders plus salt.
Control head tracks or controls time of day, scheduled time of day for
regeneration, total generations since last serviced (resetable to zero). I
programmed 14 grains per gallon hardness after having water tested and
asking village water department.
I unscrewed and carefully cleaned all the venturi parts, being careful to
put it back together correctly. I used a shop vac to remove excess water
and a light brown calcium looking slag from the bottom of the tank (below
this 1 inch of slag was clean white salt) and from the bottom of the float
and cylinder B.
1) Before I reload tank with 300 pounds of salt, I'd like to verify that I
shouldn't check anything else first. Any suggestions? I did careully
unscrew the water flow sensor and check it. This one centimeter by 5
millimeter long circuit chip (connected by 2 wires and a modular plug to the
control circuit board) had a rubberized tip that look normal. I gently
wiped it with a clean rag and put it back in. I have no idea how this
sensor knows how much water has been used. Someone explaining this to me
may aid me in diagnosing the problem.

2) If my overall cleaning doesn't slow the regenerations to once every 1500
gallons or about every three weeks, what would you check or replace next? I
can manually stop a reneration by pushing a "cancel regeneration" button
daily, but that will get old. I see no way to "schedule the regenerations";
they are purely tied to water usage. The control head counts from 000 to
199 for every gallon used (knowledge taught to me on this newsgroup based on
one toilet flush caused counter to cycle to 199 twice plus go back to about
60) and starts a regeneration after an undetermined fixed amount of water
usage. I will watch my house meter to track water usage between
regenerations, but it was about 66 gallons before the cleaning. I am hoping
the rapid frequency will be cured by the cleaning, but have no idea if the
accumulated calcium slag is the cause of the frequent regenerations. Has
anyone else had this experience?

3) I'm guessing during normal operation, village water from my home's water
meter flows into cylinder A, where the plastic resin beads trap minerals and
calcium and then allow the "softened water" to flow out of cylinder A to the
household appliances for use. Am I right?

4) During normal operation, where is it normal for water to be: In the
entire tank, or just inside cylinders A and B? Obvously, wherever water
gets and touches salt, a brine solution results, so I'm guessing water is
normally allowed everywhere inside the entire tank, and then the resulting
brine solution is somehow pulled inside cylinder A during regeneration to
clean the resin beads, then flushed to the floor drain. I'm guessing the
float switch controls how much water is allowed in the tank.

5) Is it normal for the brown calcium slag to accumulate over time at the
bottom of the tank and inside cylinder B (float) or is this just since the
last regeneration and would another regeneration have cleaned all this out
or should calcium only be inside the resin cylinder between regenerations?

6) For future knowledge, how often should I clean the venturi? It made it 6
years before becoming 75% blocked, so I'm guessing every three or 4 years.

The only other major parts a
7) a position switch which I guess controls which way water is allowed to
flow (normal operation vs various stages of regeneration)
8) a valve motor which I'm guessing moves valves open or closed during
different stages of the regeneration
If I am wrong on this, please correct me.

My goal is to become knowledgable enough to properly service my own water
softener.



Thanks in advance,
Andy

start here... amazing how much info is on ebay..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0096 904&rd=1

--
Be cool,
Longshot

Man, all that sodium in your diet?

What's your blood pressure?


"1_Patriotic_Guy" wrote in message
link.net...
I was in stitches after the toilet joke, I appreciate the humor.

I have a GE profile model PNSF31Z01 water softener. I had it installed
in 1999. It regenerates almost daily and uses several 40 pound bags of
salt
a month. I have read my owners manual and what I could find for
diagnostics
(not much). I am attempting to get it to regenerate less frequently (at a
normal rate like when it was new, every two to 3 weeks), so that I can
spend
less time loading it with salt (currently I have to add 40 to 80 pounds
weekly). I use less than the average household's amount of water.

This is what I understand so far. . .
10 inch diameter 35 inch tall cylinder A contains plastic resin beads
4 inch diameter 35 inch tall cylinder B contains a float switch
Plastic Tank contains both cylinders plus salt.
Control head tracks or controls time of day, scheduled time of day for
regeneration, total generations since last serviced (resetable to zero).
I
programmed 14 grains per gallon hardness after having water tested and
asking village water department.
I unscrewed and carefully cleaned all the venturi parts, being careful to
put it back together correctly. I used a shop vac to remove excess water
and a light brown calcium looking slag from the bottom of the tank (below
this 1 inch of slag was clean white salt) and from the bottom of the float
and cylinder B.
1) Before I reload tank with 300 pounds of salt, I'd like to verify that
I
shouldn't check anything else first. Any suggestions? I did careully
unscrew the water flow sensor and check it. This one centimeter by 5
millimeter long circuit chip (connected by 2 wires and a modular plug to
the
control circuit board) had a rubberized tip that look normal. I gently
wiped it with a clean rag and put it back in. I have no idea how this
sensor knows how much water has been used. Someone explaining this to me
may aid me in diagnosing the problem.

2) If my overall cleaning doesn't slow the regenerations to once every
1500
gallons or about every three weeks, what would you check or replace next?
I
can manually stop a reneration by pushing a "cancel regeneration" button
daily, but that will get old. I see no way to "schedule the
regenerations";
they are purely tied to water usage. The control head counts from 000 to
199 for every gallon used (knowledge taught to me on this newsgroup based
on
one toilet flush caused counter to cycle to 199 twice plus go back to
about
60) and starts a regeneration after an undetermined fixed amount of water
usage. I will watch my house meter to track water usage between
regenerations, but it was about 66 gallons before the cleaning. I am
hoping
the rapid frequency will be cured by the cleaning, but have no idea if the
accumulated calcium slag is the cause of the frequent regenerations. Has
anyone else had this experience?

3) I'm guessing during normal operation, village water from my home's
water
meter flows into cylinder A, where the plastic resin beads trap minerals
and
calcium and then allow the "softened water" to flow out of cylinder A to
the
household appliances for use. Am I right?

4) During normal operation, where is it normal for water to be: In the
entire tank, or just inside cylinders A and B? Obvously, wherever water
gets and touches salt, a brine solution results, so I'm guessing water is
normally allowed everywhere inside the entire tank, and then the resulting
brine solution is somehow pulled inside cylinder A during regeneration to
clean the resin beads, then flushed to the floor drain. I'm guessing the
float switch controls how much water is allowed in the tank.

5) Is it normal for the brown calcium slag to accumulate over time at the
bottom of the tank and inside cylinder B (float) or is this just since the
last regeneration and would another regeneration have cleaned all this out
or should calcium only be inside the resin cylinder between regenerations?

6) For future knowledge, how often should I clean the venturi? It made it
6
years before becoming 75% blocked, so I'm guessing every three or 4 years.

The only other major parts a
7) a position switch which I guess controls which way water is allowed to
flow (normal operation vs various stages of regeneration)
8) a valve motor which I'm guessing moves valves open or closed during
different stages of the regeneration
If I am wrong on this, please correct me.

My goal is to become knowledgable enough to properly service my own water
softener.



Thanks in advance,
Andy

HeatMan wrote:
Man, all that sodium in your diet?

What's your blood pressure?

For 94% of the population, salt does not affect blood pressure.

"HeatMan" wrote in news:ZAq_d.31876$Q83.20127
@bignews5.bellsouth.net:

Man, all that sodium in your diet?

Hmm, let's do a bit of math to figure out just how much sodium this really
adds up to.

Assume total hardness of 10 grains per gallon.
Assume that you actually drink about 1/2 gallon of water a day.

5 grains of sodium ions per day, at 0.06479891 grams per grain
0.06479891 * 5 = 0.32399455 grams

For comparison purposes, a single dill pickle has three times the amount of
salt.

So, your salt intake has been bumped by a "whopping" 0.3 grams per day.
Personally, I'll worry more about the dill pickles in my diet.

HeatMan wrote:
Man, all that sodium in your diet?

What's your blood pressure?


"1_Patriotic_Guy" wrote in message
link.net...

I was in stitches after the toilet joke, I appreciate the humor.

I have a GE profile model PNSF31Z01 water softener. I had it installed
in 1999. It regenerates almost daily and uses several 40 pound bags of

salt

a month. I have read my owners manual and what I could find for

diagnostics

(not much). I am attempting to get it to regenerate less frequently (at a
normal rate like when it was new, every two to 3 weeks), so that I can

spend

less time loading it with salt (currently I have to add 40 to 80 pounds
weekly). I use less than the average household's amount of water.

This is what I understand so far. . .
10 inch diameter 35 inch tall cylinder A contains plastic resin beads
4 inch diameter 35 inch tall cylinder B contains a float switch
Plastic Tank contains both cylinders plus salt.
Control head tracks or controls time of day, scheduled time of day for
regeneration, total generations since last serviced (resetable to zero).

I

programmed 14 grains per gallon hardness after having water tested and
asking village water department.
I unscrewed and carefully cleaned all the venturi parts, being careful to
put it back together correctly. I used a shop vac to remove excess water
and a light brown calcium looking slag from the bottom of the tank (below
this 1 inch of slag was clean white salt) and from the bottom of the float
and cylinder B.
1) Before I reload tank with 300 pounds of salt, I'd like to verify that

I

shouldn't check anything else first. Any suggestions? I did careully
unscrew the water flow sensor and check it. This one centimeter by 5
millimeter long circuit chip (connected by 2 wires and a modular plug to

the

control circuit board) had a rubberized tip that look normal. I gently
wiped it with a clean rag and put it back in. I have no idea how this
sensor knows how much water has been used. Someone explaining this to me
may aid me in diagnosing the problem.

2) If my overall cleaning doesn't slow the regenerations to once every

1500

gallons or about every three weeks, what would you check or replace next?

I

can manually stop a reneration by pushing a "cancel regeneration" button
daily, but that will get old. I see no way to "schedule the

regenerations";

they are purely tied to water usage. The control head counts from 000 to
199 for every gallon used (knowledge taught to me on this newsgroup based

on

one toilet flush caused counter to cycle to 199 twice plus go back to

about

60) and starts a regeneration after an undetermined fixed amount of water
usage. I will watch my house meter to track water usage between
regenerations, but it was about 66 gallons before the cleaning. I am

hoping

the rapid frequency will be cured by the cleaning, but have no idea if the
accumulated calcium slag is the cause of the frequent regenerations. Has
anyone else had this experience?

3) I'm guessing during normal operation, village water from my home's

water

meter flows into cylinder A, where the plastic resin beads trap minerals

and

calcium and then allow the "softened water" to flow out of cylinder A to

the

household appliances for use. Am I right?

4) During normal operation, where is it normal for water to be: In the
entire tank, or just inside cylinders A and B? Obvously, wherever water
gets and touches salt, a brine solution results, so I'm guessing water is
normally allowed everywhere inside the entire tank, and then the resulting
brine solution is somehow pulled inside cylinder A during regeneration to
clean the resin beads, then flushed to the floor drain. I'm guessing the
float switch controls how much water is allowed in the tank.

5) Is it normal for the brown calcium slag to accumulate over time at the
bottom of the tank and inside cylinder B (float) or is this just since the
last regeneration and would another regeneration have cleaned all this out
or should calcium only be inside the resin cylinder between regenerations?

6) For future knowledge, how often should I clean the venturi? It made it

6

years before becoming 75% blocked, so I'm guessing every three or 4 years.

The only other major parts a
7) a position switch which I guess controls which way water is allowed to
flow (normal operation vs various stages of regeneration)
8) a valve motor which I'm guessing moves valves open or closed during
different stages of the regeneration
If I am wrong on this, please correct me.

My goal is to become knowledgable enough to properly service my own water
softener.



Thanks in advance,
Andy







Hi,
The Sodium is VERY small amount.
Anyhow I don't drink out of tap.
Tony

In article , "HeatMan" wrote:
Man, all that sodium in your diet?

you might need more fiber in yours...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Guy,

Remove the sensor from it's place around or in the outlet(?) tube and
hang it on the side of the softener. It will still be hooked up but will not
sense water flow since it is no longer positioned properly. Your water
softener will think you haven't used any water and so won't think the resin
needs to be regenerated.
Twice a month hit the manual regeneration button. If the water needs more
regeneration than every 2 weeks then do the manual regeneration every week.
Don't forget to regenerate. If you do forget it takes a while for the hard
water in the water heater to go away.

Dave M.


I was in stitches after the toilet joke, I appreciate the humor.

So what was the joke?

This is what I understand so far. . .
10 inch diameter 35 inch tall cylinder A contains plastic resin beads
4 inch diameter 35 inch tall cylinder B contains a float switch
Plastic Tank contains both cylinders plus salt.
Control head tracks or controls time of day, scheduled time of day for
regeneration, total generations since last serviced (resetable to zero).
I
programmed 14 grains per gallon hardness after having water tested and
asking village water department.
I unscrewed and carefully cleaned all the venturi parts, being careful to
put it back together correctly. I used a shop vac to remove excess water
and a light brown calcium looking slag from the bottom of the tank (below
this 1 inch of slag was clean white salt) and from the bottom of the float
and cylinder B.
1) Before I reload tank with 300 pounds of salt, I'd like to verify that I
shouldn't check anything else first. Any suggestions? I did careully
unscrew the water flow sensor and check it. This one centimeter by 5
millimeter long circuit chip (connected by 2 wires and a modular plug to
the
control circuit board) had a rubberized tip that look normal. I gently
wiped it with a clean rag and put it back in. I have no idea how this
sensor knows how much water has been used. Someone explaining this to me
may aid me in diagnosing the problem.


There's a turbine in the outlet(?) tube which spins when water flows.
There are 2 magnets on this turbine. Your sensor senses these magnets and
sees 2 pulses for every complete turn of the turbine. Thus the number of
pulses is an indication of water flow . Water flows is water use and the
chip in your softener converts the pulses into gallons of water used.



2) If my overall cleaning doesn't slow the regenerations to once every
1500
gallons or about every three weeks, what would you check or replace next?
I
can manually stop a reneration by pushing a "cancel regeneration" button
daily, but that will get old. I see no way to "schedule the
regenerations";
they are purely tied to water usage. The control head counts from 000 to
199 for every gallon used (knowledge taught to me on this newsgroup based
on
one toilet flush caused counter to cycle to 199 twice plus go back to
about
60) and starts a regeneration after an undetermined fixed amount of water
usage. I will watch my house meter to track water usage between
regenerations, but it was about 66 gallons before the cleaning. I am
hoping
the rapid frequency will be cured by the cleaning, but have no idea if the
accumulated calcium slag is the cause of the frequent regenerations. Has
anyone else had this experience?


I think the cleaning was a good thing but won't help your problem.
Something is wrong in the chip that calculates water usage. Are you sure
that the correct code for your model is entered into the chip? If the code
is right then you need to replace the PC board or regenerate manually


3) I'm guessing during normal operation, village water from my home's
water
meter flows into cylinder A, where the plastic resin beads trap minerals
and
calcium and then allow the "softened water" to flow out of cylinder A to
the
household appliances for use. Am I right?




Yes


4) During normal operation, where is it normal for water to be: In the
entire tank, or just inside cylinders A and B? Obvously, wherever water
gets and touches salt, a brine solution results, so I'm guessing water is
normally allowed everywhere inside the entire tank, and then the resulting
brine solution is somehow pulled inside cylinder A during regeneration to
clean the resin beads, then flushed to the floor drain. I'm guessing the
float switch controls how much water is allowed in the tank.



You have a brine tank and a resin tank. Water flows through the resin
tank to become soft. Brine flows from the brine tank into the resin tank
during the regeneration cycle to regenerate the resin.





5) Is it normal for the brown calcium slag to accumulate over time at the
bottom of the tank and inside cylinder B (float) or is this just since the
last regeneration and would another regeneration have cleaned all this out
or should calcium only be inside the resin cylinder between regenerations?


Calcium isn't brown. Crud does build up in the brine tank. this crud is
mostly impurities in the salt that you use. It is not a problem and should
be cleaned out occasionally (every 1-2 years)


6) For future knowledge, how often should I clean the venturi? It made it
6
years before becoming 75% blocked, so I'm guessing every three or 4 years.


Sounds reasonable. I take mine apart every 2 years, clean everything,
replace worn out parts.


Dave M.

Dave,
Thank you for the easy to understand answers and especially the straight
forward easy solution on the sensor and manual regeneration.
I don't intend to try my next idea now as my softener is generally
working, especially now that you gave me a cure for the regeneration
problem; but if I clean it in a few years, is it reasonable to remove and
open the resin tank to manually rinse out the resin cylinder and thoroughly
clean the beads, or is this a waste of time and more likely for me to break
something in the process.
Finally, how long should a softener last with proper care?
Thanks again, your help is outstanding.
Andy

"David Martel" wrote in message
link.net...
Guy,

Remove the sensor from it's place around or in the outlet(?) tube and
hang it on the side of the softener. It will still be hooked up but will
not
sense water flow since it is no longer positioned properly. Your water
softener will think you haven't used any water and so won't think the
resin
needs to be regenerated.
Twice a month hit the manual regeneration button. If the water needs
more
regeneration than every 2 weeks then do the manual regeneration every
week.
Don't forget to regenerate. If you do forget it takes a while for the hard
water in the water heater to go away.

Dave M.

Andy,

I've never done what you're proposing and don't know but I think that
the regeneration process has fast flushing which does what you're proposing,
so I wouldn't open up the tank. I think the resin does fail with age but
I've not experienced this as a home owner. My first water softener lasted
about 20 yrs before it began suffering from a lot of breakdowns and was
replaced. My second softener (very similar to yours) has lasted 5 yrs so
far. I clean the venturi annually and disassemble the rotor/valve for
cleaning every 2 yrs. Had to replace the rotor seal last time but I'm on a
well.

Dave M.

Dave,
This morning when I checked my softener (after cleaning and refilling
yesterday with salt), the water level was a few inches above the salt, so
the water is within 8 inches of the top of the tank. Is it normal for water
to be in the large brine tank when a regeneration is not occurring.
It doesn't seem to matter, but if I need to adjust a float or find a clog
let me know.

Thanks!
Andy


"David Martel" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Andy,

20 years seems very reasonable. Do I need a manual for the rotor valve
work. I assume the seal is rubber or vinyl or plastic?

"David Martel" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Andy,

I've never done what you're proposing and don't know but I think that
the regeneration process has fast flushing which does what you're
proposing,
so I wouldn't open up the tank. I think the resin does fail with age but
I've not experienced this as a home owner. My first water softener lasted
about 20 yrs before it began suffering from a lot of breakdowns and was
replaced. My second softener (very similar to yours) has lasted 5 yrs so
far. I clean the venturi annually and disassemble the rotor/valve for
cleaning every 2 yrs. Had to replace the rotor seal last time but I'm on a
well.

Dave M.

Dave,
I hope I'm not taking too much of your time. Now you've got me
intrigued. I always was told not to use a water softener in the country
(because it messes with the bacteria balance in the septic system). I've
met folks who had city water and a septic system; but never knew anyone on a
private well with city sewer hook-ups. Are you?
My mother-in-law has city water and a septic tank. She would love to
use a water softener (mainly for her clothes and dishwasher). But I have
always echoed what I heard from septic tank professionals and owners -- that
it killed the bacteria in the septic tank causing the recycling process to
break down, which results either in raw sewage being flushed from the tank
because of excessive water flow or in sewage build-up and blockage,
requiring a frequent pumping of the tank (currently her system runs so well
that she never has to have it pumped).
If you ever need info on a topic, let me know.
Respectfully,
Andy

"David Martel" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Andy,

I've never done what you're proposing and don't know but I think that
the regeneration process has fast flushing which does what you're
proposing,
so I wouldn't open up the tank. I think the resin does fail with age but
I've not experienced this as a home owner. My first water softener lasted
about 20 yrs before it began suffering from a lot of breakdowns and was
replaced. My second softener (very similar to yours) has lasted 5 yrs so
far. I clean the venturi annually and disassemble the rotor/valve for
cleaning every 2 yrs. Had to replace the rotor seal last time but I'm on a
well.

Dave M.

You don't want to run the brine into your septic. Our water softener
drain bypasses the septic and goes into the roof gutter drain system
which ends up in the storm swale out by the street. Solves the
problem.

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 15:03:24 GMT, "1_Patriotic_Guy"
wrote:

Dave,
I hope I'm not taking too much of your time. Now you've got me
intrigued. I always was told not to use a water softener in the country
(because it messes with the bacteria balance in the septic system). I've
met folks who had city water and a septic system; but never knew anyone on a
private well with city sewer hook-ups. Are you?
My mother-in-law has city water and a septic tank. She would love to
use a water softener (mainly for her clothes and dishwasher). But I have
always echoed what I heard from septic tank professionals and owners -- that
it killed the bacteria in the septic tank causing the recycling process to
break down, which results either in raw sewage being flushed from the tank
because of excessive water flow or in sewage build-up and blockage,
requiring a frequent pumping of the tank (currently her system runs so well
that she never has to have it pumped).
If you ever need info on a topic, let me know.
Respectfully,
Andy

Dick wrote:
You don't want to run the brine into your septic. Our water softener
drain bypasses the septic and goes into the roof gutter drain system
which ends up in the storm swale out by the street. Solves the
problem.



My parents have been running the brine into their septic tank for
45 years with no apparent problems. Evidently the bugs can handle
the salt, if that is your worry. Running it into a rainwater
system may be contrary to code in some places though I don't
imagine it is any worse than salting the roads.

Of course you DO want to keep the discharge away from your well,
most septic systems are arranged that way already.

--

FF

The street is uphill of my mother-in-law's home, so drainage to the rear is
the reasonable option. Will the water softener drainage impact plants and
grass? How far away from the home and septic field would you keep it?

Mom has lived there since 1989 and has never had the tank pumped. Except
for one time when I had to put the aerorator back in operation and add a
white powder to help the bacteria growth it works fine. Your parents really
never have had the tank pumped. Wow! Everyone I know who did this ends up
pumping their tank every 5 years.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Dick wrote:
You don't want to run the brine into your septic. Our water softener
drain bypasses the septic and goes into the roof gutter drain system
which ends up in the storm swale out by the street. Solves the
problem.



My parents have been running the brine into their septic tank for
45 years with no apparent problems. Evidently the bugs can handle
the salt, if that is your worry. Running it into a rainwater
system may be contrary to code in some places though I don't
imagine it is any worse than salting the roads.

Of course you DO want to keep the discharge away from your well,
most septic systems are arranged that way already.

--

FF

On 20 Mar 2005 07:56:19 -0800, wrote:


Dick wrote:
You don't want to run the brine into your septic. Our water softener
drain bypasses the septic and goes into the roof gutter drain system
which ends up in the storm swale out by the street. Solves the
problem.



My parents have been running the brine into their septic tank for
45 years with no apparent problems. Evidently the bugs can handle
the salt, if that is your worry. Running it into a rainwater
system may be contrary to code in some places though I don't
imagine it is any worse than salting the roads.

Of course you DO want to keep the discharge away from your well,
most septic systems are arranged that way already.
===========================
I have to agree with you.... I have been using a Water Softner and
discharging it into my septic tank for ONLY 30 some odd years...

Never had a problem... and even with 3 Children my septic tank lasted
years before it had to be pumped... (Honestly I can only recall having
it pumped out twice ...the last time 2-3 years ago...

Bob Griffiths