the other thing that i dont get; i see people spending all this money on
tools these days, but it doesnt seem like anybody knows how to use them
any more. if it doesnt attach to a cordless drill body, its a mystery.
when i was in school you HAD to take a shop class. im pretty sure they've
dumped that requirement. between budget cuts and fear of lawsuits...

randy


When I was in school our shop teacher was giving a demonstration on how not
to use a band saw and cut his damn thumb off. They should have made him
"Teacher Of The Year." That was the kind of lesson that sticks with you.
Unfortunately I no longer work much with wood, MS has destroyed those nerve
tracts governing mathematical calculations.

Stone

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "George E. Cawthon" wrote:


You had to take shop? I never had to take, but I
did take a year. My father was born in 1898 and
he never had to take shop. But he did for 4 years
of high school. I'm curious, what time frame and
what state required such a thing? I could see CA
maybe MA.


Springfield, Illinois, in my experience: required the first two years of
*junior* high school, optional the third (foreign language or shop required,
pick one). That was in the late 1960s. No idea whether that was a state
requirement or a local one, but there it was.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Thanks. State education boards and local school
boards go thru periods of insanity fairly
regularly and there is no telling what they may
make a requirement or delete from the required
list. I would not have suspected the Midwest.

xrongor wrote:
"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...

xrongor wrote:

i didnt mean to come off as bitter as i may have in my original post.
ive just gotten a bit tired of being continually criticized for offering
something besides 'buy model number xxxyyy and install it with bracket
zzzzzz that you can get from www.buyitnowdontmakeit.com'

the other thing that i dont get; i see people spending all this money on
tools these days, but it doesnt seem like anybody knows how to use them
any more. if it doesnt attach to a cordless drill body, its a mystery.
when i was in school you HAD to take a shop class. im pretty sure
they've dumped that requirement. between budget cuts and fear of
lawsuits...

randy


"Jack Sandweiss" wrote in message
...


As an old amateur radio operator, you struck a chord with me. Fixing
things
today means knowing where to buy the part, not at all as much fun as
scotch
tape and glue, with, heaven for bid, some thought about electronics and
creativity. Today, research has become a "link". I remember climbing
through open stacks (and, Google misses a LOT)
Jack



You had to take shop? I never had to take, but I did take a year. My
father was born in 1898 and he never had to take shop. But he did for 4
years of high school. I'm curious, what time frame and what state
required such a thing? I could see CA maybe MA.


this was in the 70's in WA state. everyone had to take a quarter each of:
home economics (how to balance checkbook, invest and save money, etc), shop,
cooking, and something else useful.


None the less, I agree with you. But as the world gets more complicated,
fixing things requires more knowledge and some people are barely able to
tie their shoes. Hell, they can't even check to see if the appliance is
plugged in before calling the repairman.

Contrary to the BS you keep hearing from educators, people are NOT getting
smarter. More people that ever are being mis-educated; although that has
always been common in small groups large groups of mis-informed people
result with the current technology. Kooks and kook believers are as
common as ever and always will be.


no child left behind... lol

randy




I am surprised that WA had such a requirement
(city?), since my home state is Idaho. That
sounds like "family living" or some such name for
a course that was generally aimed at dummies. By
the 70's home ec was dumbing down and even letting
guys take the course. I like the "and something
else useful." I suppose that the students were so
well versed in reading writing and arithmetic that
something useful like balancing your checkbook was
needed to peak their interest in learning. Enough
of the irony, but sometimes you would just like to
slap some sense into some "educators." Speaking
as a former teacher and son of a 2nd grade teacher
who said, "Teachers are some of the dumbest people
I know."

Nah: Don't give up!
Fixing things that is.
One aspect that no one has mentioned is 'confidence', along with a sensible
appreciation of one's own capabilities!
Being proud of a general ability to 'fix things'; is to be aware of danger
and how avoid or get oneself and perhaps others out of a jam. To have in
fact an ability to 'survive' as well or better than anyone.
Also to appreciate what one is not capable of, must learn more about and/or
leave for someone more expert than oneself?.
I'm not happy with the "Duh! I didn't thunk that thing would catch fire;
just cos I put in a 30 amp fuse when the 15 amp blew ...... ", school of
thought! Also with people who are dangerous to themselves even when they
have the right equipment.
I'm happy my son is capable. He's interested to be that way. Others ask him
to read and analyse the fault codes of their engine computer, take a look at
their vehicle brakes, check a defective electrical outlet, reprogram a
computer, to explain when their audio system 'sounds funny', answer question
about why and do they need a CO detector, find out why an electric motor
won't start, how to wire up navigation lights on a sail boat or utility
trailer, handle propane safely and/or many other technical matters. So one
knows he is aware and most likely to do things rationally, confidently and
survive most situations; except perhaps an airplane crash, a Tsunami or
terrorist bomb?
He's not much of a carpenter and he knows it. But I wasn't the least
surprised having known him for the last 25+ years when I heard that during a
trip to Africa he was chiefly responsible, along with his equally capable
best buddy, for getting a woman, her car and child out of a mudhole. And
then getting the car started again.
Another couple of people who turned up were not technically capable and were
deemed "Bloody useless"!
Youthful impatience and unkind perhaps; but knowledge of how to organise and
the confidence to use whatever was available and at hand, on the part of
himself and buddy saved the day.
You don't learn that by accident it takes an interest in working both
practice and theory.
And if one is not 'fixing stuff' inclined and more interested in poetry or
music that's fine too. We need all kinds.
Have fun doing what you like and probably good at!

I am surprised that WA had such a requirement (city?), since my home state
is Idaho. That sounds like "family living" or some such name for a course
that was generally aimed at dummies. By the 70's home ec was dumbing down
and even letting guys take the course. I like the "and something else
useful." I suppose that the students were so well versed in reading
writing and arithmetic that something useful like balancing your checkbook
was needed to peak their interest in learning. Enough of the irony, but
sometimes you would just like to slap some sense into some "educators."
Speaking as a former teacher and son of a 2nd grade teacher who said,
"Teachers are some of the dumbest people I know."

afaik all king county (seattle area) schools had the requirement. schools
there were pretty well funded at the time. lots of special classes for both
learning challenged and gifted students. even then i think most of us knew
we were getting a decent education. looking back, it was really good.\

seems nowdays with all this 'standardized testing' bs all the teachers i
know are just completely frustrated.

randy

"George E. Cawthon" wrote:
....
... I would not have suspected the Midwest.

And why, precisely, not???

"George E. Cawthon" wrote:
....

... needed to peak their interest ...

That would be "pique"...

xrongor wrote:
"HorneTD" wrote in message
ink.net...

xrongor wrote:

there was once a time where people actually fixed things. not just
bought a new one and replaced it, but fixed things. if they didnt make
exactly what you wanted, you made it yourself. it was assumed you knew
how to look at a problem and solve it. look at old popular mechanics
magazines for one example. heck, they practically assumed you had a
welder in the garage. and you know what, you probably did.

ah but times have changed. thinking has become a thing of the past.
spending is the new thing.

every time i suggest anything requiring some thought or innovation, one
of you guys comes out of the woodwork and attacks me for being 'unsafe'
or just plain crazy. it gets tiring trying to explain myself to you one
track minded idiots that have long since lost the ability to think.
maybe there should be a seperate group called
alt.home.pay.someone.to.fix.it.cause.i.cant.thi nk.for.myself.

i give up. just toss it and buy a new one. if it doent exist, pay
someone to do your thinking for you. i figure at the current rate of
knowledge degredation, its only a few years before everything simply
becomes disposable anyway. we arent that far off now. the plug and play
house and the disposable education.

randy

Translation: I got all Ds & Fs in accepts correction in grade school. I
don't know how to do repairs safely but I don't want that pointed out.

Let me offer some advise to any would be adviser of others on this open
forum. If you lack the knowledge or the experience or both to provide
sound advice then Shut The Fxxx Up!
--
Tom H


see what i have to put up with? lol.

randy

Randy
I apologize for biting your head off but I have been attacked on this
forum as a "code bot" for trying to offer safe code compliant advice on
this forum. What gets my goat is the idea that people believe that
anything that works should be OK. Electricity kills and it only takes a
tenth of an Ampere. Worse still the person who did the incompetent work
is not the only one at risk. There are some crafts that dabblers should
stay out of and electricity is one of them. I do a fair amount of work
with sweat equity projects and I take the time to give sound advice
here. If I didn't believe in DIY work I wouldn't do either. The
counter point is that those who want to DIY their electrical work have
to take the time to learn to do it right. Some of the stray anger to
which you were subjected comes from thirty plus years of fire and rescue
service. I have responded to a number of electrical fires and deaths
and the image of a burned child never leaves you once you've seen it.

The upshot of all of that is that I will help those who are willing to
take the time to learn to do it right but I have no use for the clueless
"it's just color to color" types who set the land mines in the walls and
ceilings of homes and are so proud that they saved some hundreds of
dollars by not hiring someone.
--
Tom H

On 25 Feb 2005 13:55:07 -0800, "Matt" wrote:

Can I call you cheap, hard headed, AND nuts?

Sure you can...
I honestly do not give a damn.what you call me...

Bob Griffiths

You are cheap, hard headed, and nuts.

"HorneTD" wrote in message
ink.net...
xrongor wrote:
"HorneTD" wrote in message
ink.net...

xrongor wrote:

there was once a time where people actually fixed things. not just
bought a new one and replaced it, but fixed things. if they didnt make
exactly what you wanted, you made it yourself. it was assumed you knew
how to look at a problem and solve it. look at old popular mechanics
magazines for one example. heck, they practically assumed you had a
welder in the garage. and you know what, you probably did.

ah but times have changed. thinking has become a thing of the past.
spending is the new thing.

every time i suggest anything requiring some thought or innovation, one
of you guys comes out of the woodwork and attacks me for being 'unsafe'
or just plain crazy. it gets tiring trying to explain myself to you one
track minded idiots that have long since lost the ability to think.
maybe there should be a seperate group called
alt.home.pay.someone.to.fix.it.cause.i.cant.th ink.for.myself.

i give up. just toss it and buy a new one. if it doent exist, pay
someone to do your thinking for you. i figure at the current rate of
knowledge degredation, its only a few years before everything simply
becomes disposable anyway. we arent that far off now. the plug and
play house and the disposable education.

randy

Translation: I got all Ds & Fs in accepts correction in grade school. I
don't know how to do repairs safely but I don't want that pointed out.

Let me offer some advise to any would be adviser of others on this open
forum. If you lack the knowledge or the experience or both to provide
sound advice then Shut The Fxxx Up!
--
Tom H


see what i have to put up with? lol.

randy

Randy
I apologize for biting your head off but I have been attacked on this
forum as a "code bot" for trying to offer safe code compliant advice on
this forum. What gets my goat is the idea that people believe that
anything that works should be OK. Electricity kills and it only takes a
tenth of an Ampere. Worse still the person who did the incompetent work
is not the only one at risk. There are some crafts that dabblers should
stay out of and electricity is one of them. I do a fair amount of work
with sweat equity projects and I take the time to give sound advice here.
If I didn't believe in DIY work I wouldn't do either. The counter point
is that those who want to DIY their electrical work have to take the time
to learn to do it right. Some of the stray anger to which you were
subjected comes from thirty plus years of fire and rescue service. I have
responded to a number of electrical fires and deaths and the image of a
burned child never leaves you once you've seen it.

The upshot of all of that is that I will help those who are willing to
take the time to learn to do it right but I have no use for the clueless
"it's just color to color" types who set the land mines in the walls and
ceilings of homes and are so proud that they saved some hundreds of
dollars by not hiring someone.

its a fine balance. one guy can get away just fine with what another
cannot. some people seem to have a sense for safety issues and an intuitive
sense for what will fly and what wont. others are like a little kid running
across a glass covered beach, blissfully and ignorantly dodging cut after
cut, for a while.

electrical work is definitely one thing i try and steer people away from if
it is clear they dont have a clue. if you cannot tell which wire is hot,
neutral and ground without asking the newsgroup, if you dont know which wire
goes to which wire when you connect your stove, if you dont know why there's
black tape wrapped around that white wire (or even worse, if you dont know
when or why YOU need to wrap black tape on the white wire), you need to call
an electrician.

the answers to all the above questions are given in any home wiring book.
if you dont have the time to read a time life or similiar book on elementary
home wiring (and these things are written for about a 6th grade education),
and expect some magic step by step guide written for you on the newsgroup by
someone who cant see your house, and may be guessing anyway, you are asking
for trouble.

randy

Duane Bozarth wrote:
"George E. Cawthon" wrote:
...

... I would not have suspected the Midwest.


And why, precisely, not???

I would suspect the heartland to be more
conservative than the two coasts and less prone or
more slow to limit options.

Duane Bozarth wrote:
"George E. Cawthon" wrote:
...


... needed to peak their interest ...


That would be "pique"...

Ah yes, my fingers like to type a lot of homonyms
, and indeed I meant pique. But I could claim
(falsely) that I was following the current trend
of using nouns as verbs, i.e., "to raise their
interest to its peak," rather than "excite their
interest."

A few mos ago, my B+D coffeemaker blew a heat sensitive fuse-link, a
thermal fuse, (OK,I was in the shower and had forgot to load the thing
with H2O). Fair enuff, it saved the house, butt... what really got me
fuming was the slimy way the thing was put together, with one-way
robotic screws recessed a couple of inches up in these narrow plastic
tunnels! No screwdriver in the joint would get a grip on those heads,
and I've got dozens of them, from hex to torx.
I attacked the heads with a tiny drill bit, butt...those screwheads
were hard and rounded, so the drill kept slipping off into the plastic,
grrr. Finally got a little dimple in the top of one screw, then by
reversing a bigger drill bit and pushing down just enough, i got the
thing to spin a bit, then a bit more, etc...
No wonder nobody fixes stuff like that. I use a Palm Pilot at work, one
of them got dropped in a creek. Just needed to be opened up and dried
out, but who's got a torx screwdriver that tiny? Couldn't find one
anywhere. Go get another Pocket Pal.

The coffemaker, i decided to toss after all. Not trustworthy once it's
been tinkered with. Fire insurance, liability, etc...
I'm a fixer, but there are limits to what's fixable these days, for
sure.

JohnK

In article , John B
wrote:

"Greg M" wrote
I'm 25 years old and ...
If
you want to blame anyone, blame today's fathers for not teaching their
sons
how to be handy, mostly because they don't know themselves. For that, I
blame *YOUR* generation.

Come to think of it, I also blame computers, the bomb, the Jews, North
Korea
and Celine Dion...but mostly I blame *your* generation.

So who taught you how to reason?

I don't know.... He got Celine Dion right.

-Frank

--
fwarner1-at-franksknives-dot-com
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/