We have a RuudGlas PaceMaker gas water heater (installed by a previous
owner) that never feels warm on the outside, yet the EnergyGuide label
on it shows it as using about 35% more energy than the most efficient
one of similar type.

Obviously we're not going to replace it, but I'm curious about what
could have been done to make it more efficient.

Perce

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
We have a RuudGlas PaceMaker gas water heater (installed by a previous
owner) that never feels warm on the outside, yet the EnergyGuide label
on it shows it as using about 35% more energy than the most efficient
one of similar type.
Obviously we're not going to replace it, but I'm curious about what
could have been done to make it more efficient.

Does the flue feel hot when the heater is on (hint: be careful testing this)?

Anything to take the heat that goes up the flue and instead applies it to the
tank water increases efficiency. Nothing practical a homeowner can do as a
retrofit, 'tho.

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
We have a RuudGlas PaceMaker gas water heater (installed by a
previous
owner) that never feels warm on the outside, yet the EnergyGuide
label
on it shows it as using about 35% more energy than the most efficient

one of similar type.

Obviously we're not going to replace it, but I'm curious about what
could have been done to make it more efficient.

Perce

The insulation within the heater itself can make a big difference. You
can buy fiberglass insulation wraps for hot water heaters that can
help, but that is about all you can do. Some heaters are particularly
vulnerable to sedimentaiton, but that affects the long term efficiency,
not what is printed on the sticker. The insulation, type and location
of the heating elements, and the temperature control systems all
contribute the efficiency. Unless you were to dismantle yours and
another unit it is not so easy to say exactly why one is more efficient
than the other.

Exactly. And also, be careful how deep you bury the water heater when
you install it. Most manufacturers will void the warranty if you bury
the heater deeper than 12'. If you have sandy soil, the limit is 15', I
believe.

'Obviously we're not going to replace it, but I'm curious about what
could have been done to make it more efficient.
Perce '

ME: The areas of a water heater that can affect efficiency are :

1. The amount and type of insulation around the shell.

2. The burner design and how it disperses the flame.

3. The design of the vent turbulator that runs down the center of the
tank.

4. How and where the cold water enters the tank.

5. How much sediment has collected in the bottom of the tank.

'You can buy fiberglass insulation wraps for hot water heaters that can
help, but that is about all you can do.'

ME: Actually, there are other things you can do : Add a mechanical flue
damper to the water heaters flue pipe. And/or, install a 3/8"
compression solenoid valve in the burner tube and have an automatic
timer open it based on the times that you actually will be using hot
water (all other times it will be off). I do this and run my gas water
heater 1 hr. just before i cook and shower in the evening.

"HVAC fella" wrote in message
...
'You can buy fiberglass insulation wraps for hot water heaters that can
help, but that is about all you can do.'

ME: Actually, there are other things you can do : Add a mechanical flue
damper to the water heaters flue pipe.

That will help.

And/or, install a 3/8"
compression solenoid valve in the burner tube and have an automatic
timer open it based on the times that you actually will be using hot
water (all other times it will be off). I do this and run my gas water
heater 1 hr. just before i cook and shower in the evening.


Makes sense in the summer, but in the winter, not a big deal if the heater
is in the house. As the water loses heat through the jacket, where does it
go? Into the space that you are heating anyway.

Dave, a "mechanical damper" you say, Who makes them and why are they
not standard equipment? Or a factory option?

So if the Mechanical damper fails what keeps Co from pouring into the
house and killing you?? . Are they Code anywhere?

Now a motor driven damper with a saftey shut off I have on a boiler.
But mechanical with no saftey?

Sounds like unsafe BS Dave.

If you want your water heater running at its efficency rating and want
more , insulate it, instal a thermal brake on the water input and
output, flush it and be sure burners are burning correctly. And
insulating pipe will help you to be able to run lower temps. Or better,
I put in a Tankless gas , 5 yr payback my bills are that much lower.

"HVAC fella" wrote in message
...
'You can buy fiberglass insulation wraps for hot water heaters that can
help, but that is about all you can do.'

ME: Actually, there are other things you can do : Add a mechanical flue
damper to the water heaters flue pipe. And/or, install a 3/8"
compression solenoid valve in the burner tube and have an automatic
timer open it based on the times that you actually will be using hot
water (all other times it will be off). I do this and run my gas water
heater 1 hr. just before i cook and shower in the evening.


This is Turtle.

Davey , Putting a cellinoid valve with compression fitting on the gas feed line
up in a burn area is not really a good ideal. When the compression fitting are
heated up then cooled off over a few years they could loosen up and let the
cellinoid valve just fall off and when the gas valve open for to heat the water.
It would fire up about 1/2 the room with burning gas shot from out from under
the water heater by a open pipe. Also how long do you think the plastic
cellinoid valve coil is going to last being heated up all the time at burner
flame temperatures.

I can't remember for sure but didn't we have a conversation about you using 3"
PVC pipe for to vent a gas water heater with and you said it worked fine for
you. Correct me here Dave about this !

TURTLE

'Dave, a "mechanical damper" you say, Who makes them and why are they
not standard equipment? Or a factory option?
=A0=A0=A0=A0So if the Mechanical damper fails what keeps Co from pouring
into the house and killing you?? . =A0 Are they Code anywhere?
=A0=A0Now a motor driven damper with a saftey shut off I have on a
boiler. But mechanical with no saftey?
=A0=A0Sounds like unsafe BS Dave.
'

Rans,

Theyve been around for many decades. They are installed on millions of
water heaters and older furnaces, and, i dont know of one village that
doesnt allow them. No B.S. Rans....check it out if youre not familiar
with it.

'If you want your water heater running at its efficency rating and want
more , insulate it, instal a thermal brake on the water input and
output, flush it and be sure burners are burning correctly.'

ME: Agree.

'This is Turtle.
Davey , Putting a cellinoid valve with compression fitting on the gas
feed line up in a burn area is not really a good ideal. When the
compression fitting are heated up then cooled off over a few years they
could loosen up and let the cellinoid valve just fall off and when the
gas valve open for to heat the water. It would fire up about 1/2 the
room with burning gas shot from out from under the water heater by a
open pipe. Also how long do you think the plastic cellinoid valve coil
is going to last being heated up all the time at burner flame
temperatures.'

ME: Turtle, Its called a 'Solenoid' Valve and i never had any problem
with the ones i put on my water heaters over the years ; if you dont
like compression, then they come flare also. The solenoid coils i used
were metal encapsulated, not plastic...further, are you aware that there
are plastic parts on the water heaters gas valve ? If you have the
burner shield on and the outside cover on the water heater... there is
not much heat that escapes. Hold your hand there and see what i mean.

'I can't remember for sure but didn't we have a conversation about you
using 3" PVC pipe for to vent a gas water heater with and you said it
worked fine for you. Correct me here Dave about this !
TURTLE'

ME: I dont remember this conversation with you specifically , but, i do
have a Power Vent water heater that is designed for 3" PVC , so, thats
what i use in conjunction with an 'electric' damper utilizing end
switches. I would never suggest using PVC on a regular water heater. Is
there any particular motive you have in trying to belittle or defame me
Turtle ? If so, how about if we start fresh and become friends : we
both have alot of trade experience that would be useful to ourselves and
others.

Dave , if-when the damper sticks shut you get flue gas in the
building, not up the chimney, Right. A mechanical damper retrofit
without saftey shut off controls ??

I don`t buy your logic, and have never heard of that option offered as
OEM or aftermarket.

Sounds like dangerous advise , post facts.

If you posted the drivel on the Wall and were talking about Dave, you lost
what little respect I had for you. That's especially if he's your "Hvac
guy."

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cf..._ID=24107&mc=3


"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
Dave, a "mechanical damper" you say, Who makes them and why are they
not standard equipment? Or a factory option?

So if the Mechanical damper fails what keeps Co from pouring into the
house and killing you?? . Are they Code anywhere?

Now a motor driven damper with a saftey shut off I have on a boiler.
But mechanical with no saftey?

Sounds like unsafe BS Dave.

If you want your water heater running at its efficency rating and want
more , insulate it, instal a thermal brake on the water input and
output, flush it and be sure burners are burning correctly. And
insulating pipe will help you to be able to run lower temps. Or better,
I put in a Tankless gas , 5 yr payback my bills are that much lower.

"HVAC fella" wrote in message
...
'Dave, a "mechanical damper" you say, Who makes them and why are they
not standard equipment? Or a factory option?
So if the Mechanical damper fails what keeps Co from pouring
into the house and killing you?? . Are they Code anywhere?
Now a motor driven damper with a saftey shut off I have on a
boiler. But mechanical with no saftey?
Sounds like unsafe BS Dave.


Rans,

Theyve been around for many decades. They are installed on millions of
water heaters and older furnaces, and, i dont know of one village that
doesnt allow them. No B.S. Rans....check it out if youre not familiar
with it.

He knows nothing about it and neither do you.

'If you want your water heater running at its efficency rating and want
more , insulate it, instal a thermal brake on the water input and
output, flush it and be sure burners are burning correctly.'

ME: Agree.

You just ain't gotta clue...

Read this:
http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cf..._ID=24107&mc=3

Right HEAT MAN seems daves exaust vent mechanical damper is Unsafe,
unless you have something inteligent to say , which you havn`t , Yet.
What is your point, if you actualy have one. Seems like You have no
clue. So post some facts.

Posting Drivel , It seems you and dave are two of a kind.

"HVAC fella" wrote in message
...
'This is Turtle.
Davey , Putting a cellinoid valve with compression fitting on the gas
feed line up in a burn area is not really a good ideal. When the
compression fitting are heated up then cooled off over a few years they
could loosen up and let the cellinoid valve just fall off and when the
gas valve open for to heat the water. It would fire up about 1/2 the
room with burning gas shot from out from under the water heater by a
open pipe. Also how long do you think the plastic cellinoid valve coil
is going to last being heated up all the time at burner flame
temperatures.'

ME: Turtle, Its called a 'Solenoid' Valve and i never had any problem
with the ones i put on my water heaters over the years ; if you dont
like compression, then they come flare also. The solenoid coils i used
were metal encapsulated, not plastic...further, are you aware that there
are plastic parts on the water heaters gas valve ? If you have the
burner shield on and the outside cover on the water heater... there is
not much heat that escapes. Hold your hand there and see what i mean.

'I can't remember for sure but didn't we have a conversation about you
using 3" PVC pipe for to vent a gas water heater with and you said it
worked fine for you. Correct me here Dave about this !
TURTLE'

ME: I dont remember this conversation with you specifically , but, i do
have a Power Vent water heater that is designed for 3" PVC , so, thats
what i use in conjunction with an 'electric' damper utilizing end
switches. I would never suggest using PVC on a regular water heater. Is
there any particular motive you have in trying to belittle or defame me
Turtle ? If so, how about if we start fresh and become friends : we
both have alot of trade experience that would be useful to ourselves and
others.


This is Turtle

Fella , I was just asking about something that I felt was dangerous to do by
putting a mechnical Damper on a residentiual Hot water tank not set up for it.
The only way to get it set up is to buy a commecial type hot water tank and you
will have the controls to do it. Now your going to pay up to $10,000.00 for a
commercial hot water tank to get it set up to do so. If your going to put a
damper on a residentiual type hot water tank , well Fella , You like living
dangerously for sure.

Yes I know your going to say you have a company that tells you that the damper
is ok if everything works fine. now if the damper fails to open and flame comes
on. Your house is going to get to test your CO detector that I hope you have
installed. Living on the edge every day is not my ideal of safety living.

TURTLE

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...
If you posted the drivel on the Wall and were talking about Dave, you lost
what little respect I had for you. That's especially if he's your "Hvac
guy."

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cf..._ID=24107&mc=3


This is Turtle.

HeatMan , Ransley was getting on HVAC Fella for making stupid statements about
dampers on hot water tanks. Then you here get on Ransley for getting on HVAC
Fella's ass about doing stupid things.

You must have missread the post or something for everybody gets on HVAC Fella
for the wild ass reply he gives. What Happen ?

TURTLE

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...

"HVAC fella" wrote in message
...
'Dave, a "mechanical damper" you say, Who makes them and why are they
not standard equipment? Or a factory option?
So if the Mechanical damper fails what keeps Co from pouring
into the house and killing you?? . Are they Code anywhere?
Now a motor driven damper with a saftey shut off I have on a
boiler. But mechanical with no saftey?
Sounds like unsafe BS Dave.


Rans,

Theyve been around for many decades. They are installed on millions of
water heaters and older furnaces, and, i dont know of one village that
doesnt allow them. No B.S. Rans....check it out if youre not familiar
with it.

He knows nothing about it and neither do you.

'If you want your water heater running at its efficency rating and want
more , insulate it, instal a thermal brake on the water input and
output, flush it and be sure burners are burning correctly.'

ME: Agree.

You just ain't gotta clue...

Read this:
http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cf..._ID=24107&mc=3



This is Turtle.

I'm not much in getting into a ****ing contest but Dave is mixing the words of
Ransley in with his by the way he post and replys. Dave is mixing up things to
get one of you to go at the other with this mix posting together.

TURTLE

Well dave I posted this at "The Wall" , link provided by Heat Man, and
talked to other people. You are as often you do, recomending more
dangerous information . If it was done properly with saftey lock out,
the cost would be absurd, never giving a payback. But you don`t even
consider the saftey lock out.

TURTLE wrote:

I can't remember for sure but didn't we have a conversation about you
using 3"
PVC pipe for to vent a gas water heater with and you said it worked
fine for
you. Correct me here Dave about this !

I believe the PVC fluepipe on the non-powervent water heater was Tom.

%mod%

"TURTLE" wrote in message
...

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...
If you posted the drivel on the Wall and were talking about Dave, you
lost
what little respect I had for you. That's especially if he's your "Hvac
guy."

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cf..._ID=24107&mc=3


This is Turtle.

HeatMan , Ransley was getting on HVAC Fella for making stupid statements
about
dampers on hot water tanks. Then you here get on Ransley for getting on
HVAC
Fella's ass about doing stupid things.

You must have missread the post or something for everybody gets on HVAC
Fella
for the wild ass reply he gives. What Happen ?

TURTLE


HVAC idiot (I will NOT call him Fella) told Mark the garbage about the
Dampers and Ransley posted the question on the Wall. I'm sure Ransley was
simply looking for confirmation of what the Idiot said. The people on the
Wall said what everyone else (but the Idiot) told him, that dampers on the
WH's and furnaces didn't work. Ransley's a real idiot if he beleives what
HVACIdiot sez....

The conversation's on WH dampers isn't worth the bandwidth it's taking up.

Heat Man , you need to keep up here. Of course I don`t believe him.

Dangerous Dave comes here spouting off on non code, dangerous,
stupid, ideas that someone might adopt because they trust him and end up
harming themselves. Someone has to call out dave when he posts crap.
The scary thing is I will bet he sells it.

'Dave , if-when the damper sticks shut you get flue gas in the building,
not up the chimney, Right. A mechanical damper retrofit without saftey
shut off controls ??'

ME: Rans, YEP ! Back in the 1980's during the Energy Crunch,
mechanical flue dampers were very very popular . I personally never had
one that stuck closed . Often, installers would put in draft diverter
spill switches ...but most installers did not.

'I don`t buy your logic, and have never heard of that option offered as
OEM or aftermarket.
=A0=A0Sounds like dangerous advise , post facts.
'

ME: You dont have 'to buy my logic'...cause it isnt '
my logic ; do a google and youll soon find these as an aftermarket
item. All my wholesalers still sell them. In fact, i have about 5 or 6
used ones in my shop -- so, please dont be arrogant by inferring they
dont exist.

'I was just asking about something that I felt was dangerous to do by
putting a mechnical Damper on a residentiual Hot water tank not set up
for it. '

ME: Theyve been on water heaters for many decades, as well as 65
percent efficiency gas furnaces. They are especially popular in
Germany.
( Disclaimer : I didnt make them, never have, do not own stock in
manufacturers that do make them STILL , and i am not responsible for
them appearing in my Wholesalers catalogues).

'Dangerous Dave comes here spouting off on non code, dangerous, stupid,
ideas that someone might adopt because they trust him and end up harming
themselves.'

ME: Not true ; you are not in the hvac trade and you know little about
it including whats code and what isnt. Further, you are not really
interested in finding out the truth about things , such as mechanical
flue dampers which have been around for at least 50 years...otherwise
you would have one a Google search instead of badgering me without
cause. Again..i offer a truce with you Ransley as i believe the bad
blood between us is unnecessary and unhealthy.

'Fella , I was just asking about something that.....'

ME: My name is Davey. Not 'fella' !

'now if the damper fails to open and flame comes on. Your house is going
to get to test your CO detector that I hope you have installed. Living
on the edge every day is not my ideal of safety living.
TURTLE'

ME: If i were installing one, id do it with spill switches on the draft
diverter along with a gas line solenoid valve such as what the
manufacturer Effikal (sp.?) offers. Having a workable CO detector is
mandatory for safe living and it should be tested monthly.

You ain't got a clue, do you?

"HVAC fella" wrote in message
...
'Dave , if-when the damper sticks shut you get flue gas in the building,
not up the chimney, Right. A mechanical damper retrofit without saftey
shut off controls ??'

ME: Rans, YEP ! Back in the 1980's during the Energy Crunch,
mechanical flue dampers were very very popular . I personally never had
one that stuck closed . Often, installers would put in draft diverter
spill switches ...but most installers did not.

'I don`t buy your logic, and have never heard of that option offered as
OEM or aftermarket.
Sounds like dangerous advise , post facts.
'

ME: You dont have 'to buy my logic'...cause it isnt '
my logic ; do a google and youll soon find these as an aftermarket
item. All my wholesalers still sell them. In fact, i have about 5 or 6
used ones in my shop -- so, please dont be arrogant by inferring they
dont exist.

Only after the fact do you include saftey switches in your pitch.

After what you said was proven unsafe.

Over the last 20 yrs alot of things have been proven unsafe, you are
one of them.

'You ain't got a clue, do you? '

ME: Yes Sir..sure do. Have you been in business for yourself for 19
years and in the hvac trade since 1974 ?? O. I. C. ....

'Only after the fact do you include saftey switches in your pitch.
=A0=A0=A0=A0After what you said was proven unsafe.
=A0=A0=A0=A0Over the last 20 yrs alot of things have been proven unsafe,
you are one of them.'

ME: I havent installed any mechanical flue dampers in a long time..but,
if i did today, it would include spill switches. If anything 'was
proven' unsafe...it would be directed toward the manufacturers of
mechanical flue dampers..and not myself. Im just the messenger Rans.
Now then....about our truce ; what is holding you back ?

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:12:25 -0600, (HVAC fella)
wrote:

'Dangerous Dave comes here spouting off on non code, dangerous, stupid,
ideas that someone might adopt because they trust him and end up harming
themselves.'

ME: Not true ; you are not in the hvac trade and you know little about
it including whats code and what isnt. Further, you are not really
interested in finding out the truth about things , such as mechanical
flue dampers which have been around for at least 50 years...otherwise
you would have one a Google search instead of badgering me without
cause. Again..i offer a truce with you Ransley as i believe the bad
blood between us is unnecessary and unhealthy.


You HVAC "pros" don't like it when non-pros post on alt.hvac.

Why do you guys insist on bringing your ****ing contests over to
here????

Doug

wrote in message
ups.com...
TURTLE wrote:

I can't remember for sure but didn't we have a conversation about you
using 3"
PVC pipe for to vent a gas water heater with and you said it worked
fine for
you. Correct me here Dave about this !

I believe the PVC fluepipe on the non-powervent water heater was Tom.

%mod%


This is Turtle.

Now that you say that i do seem to remember him somewhere in the middle of it.
that was a good one to think about having a pvc vent pipe on your non-power vent
type hot water tank. Maybe dave was over at Tom's house too much breathing the
vapors.

TURTLE

"HVAC fella" wrote in message
...
'You ain't got a clue, do you? '

ME: Yes Sir..sure do. Have you been in business for yourself for 19
years and in the hvac trade since 1974 ?? O. I. C. ....


I'm not as old as you. That should tell you that I do know the current
ideas, not the old ineffectual ones....

I'm also not ever called a hack. You are. Constantly.

You ideas can really contribute to getting someone killed.

"Doug" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:12:25 -0600, (HVAC fella)
wrote:

'Dangerous Dave comes here spouting off on non code, dangerous, stupid,
ideas that someone might adopt because they trust him and end up harming
themselves.'

ME: Not true ; you are not in the hvac trade and you know little about
it including whats code and what isnt. Further, you are not really
interested in finding out the truth about things , such as mechanical
flue dampers which have been around for at least 50 years...otherwise
you would have one a Google search instead of badgering me without
cause. Again..i offer a truce with you Ransley as i believe the bad
blood between us is unnecessary and unhealthy.


You HVAC "pros" don't like it when non-pros post on alt.hvac.

Why do you guys insist on bringing your ****ing contests over to
here????


Doug,

The HVAC idiot brought all this up. Part of what I'm saying is that Fella
is an idiot and a hack. He's been requested to show proof of licensing and
insurance and ignores all such requests.

When in the **** are you going to change to your new and much more
suitable webtv nic: HACK fella?

AND since when has dimwitted dave EVER been interested in the truth?

Tell us dave why do you still say Charles Darwin and Aldous Huxley were
"associates" (you have often posted such information) when they weren't
even alive at the same time?

Hay HACK fella..stay away from those kids. OK?

Interesting post from Dave (aka decencyadvocate)


From:
Group: alt.discuss.clubs.public.christian.gays
Subject: im looking for a friend
Date: Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 6:13pm (PST+2)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
im a single male no children but did lose one to God many years ago im
a
christian but have recently found myself fighting with homesexual
demons
in my mind i am around children often and worry about my feelings for
them too id like someone other than my minister to discuss this
situation with
dave