We have exterior receptacles installed on front and back of the house. Our
city code adopts NEC 2002. We do and waterproof cover on the receptacles but
not GFCI protection. Does the weather cover alone satisfies the code, or we
need both cover and GFCI?
TIA



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Kathy wrote:
We have exterior receptacles installed on front and back of the house. Our
city code adopts NEC 2002. We do and waterproof cover on the receptacles but
not GFCI protection. Does the weather cover alone satisfies the code, or we
need both cover and GFCI?
TIA

Kathy,

Is there a GFCI upstream? Standard electrical outlets can be protected
from a GFCI outlet if connected to the "LOAD" connection on the back of
the GFCI.

It may be that your outlets are connected to a GFCI breaker. You could
buy an inexpensive outlet tester which also has a GFCI checker. All
you'd have to do is plug it into the outlet in question and press the
button on the tester.

If the outlet in question is connected through a GFCI, the outlet will
lose power as the GFCI upstream trips. Now you get to find the GFCI that
was tripped.

I used this method to check the standard outlets outside the older house
I bought. I found one of them wasn't on a GFCI, so I changed it out for
a GFCI outlet.
--Mike

Usually grandfather laws apply. If the outlets were installed before GFCI
protection was the law, you probably will comply, however replacing the
receptacles with GFCI type is relatively inexpensive and gives you a greater
degree of safety
"Kathy" wrote in message ...
We have exterior receptacles installed on front and back of the house. Our
city code adopts NEC 2002. We do and waterproof cover on the receptacles
but not GFCI protection. Does the weather cover alone satisfies the code,
or we need both cover and GFCI?
TIA


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"Kathy" wrote in message ...
We have exterior receptacles installed on front and back of the house. Our
city code adopts NEC 2002. We do and waterproof cover on the receptacles
but
not GFCI protection. Does the weather cover alone satisfies the code, or
we
need both cover and GFCI?
TIA


The only code that is relevant is the code when the home was built. Not what
may have been just adopted.

No the covers do not meet the requirement of a GFCI.

GFCI's have been required for some time for residences in certain places. I
was installing GFCI's for bathrooms, garages and outside recpts, in the
1970's. (code then here)

If you home was built in the 1970's you may already have them installed as a
breaker instead of a outlet which is the way it is done now.

Replacing the non GFCI protected outlets is easy and fairly inexpensive. You
will need an gfci outlet and new w/p cover. Sorry the way the gfci's are
made is different so your going to need an new cover.

Forget about the code, Kathy.... get the GFI's (assuming they aren't
already a downstream GFI device, as Mike mentioned) and weatherproof
covers.

1. The home is a new contruction.
2. There is no GFCI breaker upstream.

The contractor told us when the cover is there GFCI is not required for
outdoor outlets. We are trying to find what he said is true.

Thank you.

"Mike Fritz" wrote in message
.net...
Kathy wrote:
We have exterior receptacles installed on front and back of the house.
Our
city code adopts NEC 2002. We do and waterproof cover on the receptacles
but
not GFCI protection. Does the weather cover alone satisfies the code, or
we
need both cover and GFCI?
TIA

Kathy,

Is there a GFCI upstream? Standard electrical outlets can be protected
from a GFCI outlet if connected to the "LOAD" connection on the back of
the GFCI.

It may be that your outlets are connected to a GFCI breaker. You could
buy an inexpensive outlet tester which also has a GFCI checker. All
you'd have to do is plug it into the outlet in question and press the
button on the tester.

If the outlet in question is connected through a GFCI, the outlet will
lose power as the GFCI upstream trips. Now you get to find the GFCI that
was tripped.

I used this method to check the standard outlets outside the older house
I bought. I found one of them wasn't on a GFCI, so I changed it out for
a GFCI outlet.
--Mike




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The contractor is wrong. A cover is not going to protect you from
anything.

Are you saying that the code requires GFCI even it has cover? We are trying
to find what the code says. The contractor has obligation to make it code
compliant.

"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...
The contractor is wrong. A cover is not going to protect you from
anything.





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In article , Kathy wrote:
1. The home is a new contruction.
2. There is no GFCI breaker upstream.

The contractor told us when the cover is there GFCI is not required for
outdoor outlets. We are trying to find what he said is true.

Don't ask a bunch of random people here on the newsgroup. Ask your
local building department. Find them in the phone book, and give them
a call. I have always found that they are super-friendly if you
approach them with polite questions. Just because you call and ask,
they won't come around and get you in massive trouble.

Also, why are you asking about the NEC 2002? Do you indeed know that
this is the electrical code in effect at the relevant time (usually,
when the house was built, more accurately, when the building permit
was issued, although some remodels can trigger code upgrades)? For
example, when we built our house in 1998, our county was still using
the 1993 NEC, even though the 1996 NEC was already issued.

Furthermore, some localities (in particular the big ones: NY, Chicago,
LA) use their own electrical codes, or modified versions of the NEC.
Even in small localities, the NEC can be modified when it is adopted
as the local code. Or there is a local rule that certain parts of the
NEC are deliberately not enforced. Example: When we built, the rule
that exterior 110V outlets have to have covers that are weatherproof
when in use was already in the NEC, but the county handed out a
photocopy with each building permit, telling people to not bother,
because they are deliberately not enforcing that rule (and since they
were $15 a piece back then, and ugly to boot, I didn't install them,
except where the Christmas lights plug in).

Now, to really answer your question: Exterior outlets have to be GFCI
protected per NEC, and that rule has been effect for a heck of a long
time (at least mid- or late-80s). So I would bet a few beers that
your contractor is "misinformed", to put it very very mildly. But it
is theoretically possible that he's right.

Good luck!

--
The address in the header is invalid for obvious reasons. Please
reconstruct the address from the information below (look for _).
Ralph Becker-Szendy

Kathy -

_firstname pretty much nailed it. Call your building dept to find what
the rule is in your area. As _first said, however - it's possible the
contractor is right. But HIGHLY doubtful.

If it does turn out he's right, then put a GFI in on your own anyway.
They are around $5.

let me make it real simple.

YOU NEED A GFCI OUTLET THERE.

end of story.

randy

On 3 Feb 2005 09:23:18 -0800, "Matt" wrote:

The contractor is wrong. A cover is not going to protect you from
anything.

Very true, I think the wording is any outside receptacles. No
mentioning whether they are covered or not.

Now this is scary, if the builder/electrician couldn't read that
simple passage and figure the gfci protection was needed, what else
did he miss?

I would get a real house inpection while it's all under warrenty.
Might cost you a full day price for the person to pull outlets and
check breakers, pipping, insulaiton, etc.... but the cost is minimal
if something else is seriously wrong. Example, 300-500 buck inpection
cheaper than a million dollar lawsuit for electricuting someone.

IMHO,

tom @ www.ChopURL.com

From: "Kathy"


1. The home is a new contruction.
2. There is no GFCI breaker upstream.

The contractor told us when the cover is there GFCI is not required for
outdoor outlets. We are trying to find what he said is true.

Thank you.

Is he/are you sure there isn't GFCI protection from an upstream outlet? Often,
a garage outlet or a circuit breaker is the GFCI device, and then it feeds
normal-looking outlets which are indeed GFCI protected.

The code does not require that the actual GFCI device be outside, only that the
outdoor outlet be protected by a GFCI.


"Mike Fritz" wrote in message
k.net...
Kathy wrote:
We have exterior receptacles installed on front and back of the house.
Our
city code adopts NEC 2002. We do and waterproof cover on the receptacles
but
not GFCI protection. Does the weather cover alone satisfies the code, or
we
need both cover and GFCI?
TIA

Kathy,

Is there a GFCI upstream? Standard electrical outlets can be protected
from a GFCI outlet if connected to the "LOAD" connection on the back of
the GFCI.

It may be that your outlets are connected to a GFCI breaker. You could
buy an inexpensive outlet tester which also has a GFCI checker. All
you'd have to do is plug it into the outlet in question and press the
button on the tester.

If the outlet in question is connected through a GFCI, the outlet will
lose power as the GFCI upstream trips. Now you get to find the GFCI that
was tripped.

I used this method to check the standard outlets outside the older house
I bought. I found one of them wasn't on a GFCI, so I changed it out for
a GFCI outlet.
--Mike




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News==----
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Newsgroups
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Kathy wrote:
We have exterior receptacles installed on front and back of the house. Our
city code adopts NEC 2002. We do and waterproof cover on the receptacles but
not GFCI protection. Does the weather cover alone satisfies the code, or we
need both cover and GFCI?
TIA



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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Under the 2002 NEC both an in use cover and GFCI protection are
required. An in use cover is rain tight even with a cord plugged into
it. The GFCI protection can be provided by a GFCI breaker or a feed
through GFCI receptacle located elsewhere as well as by a GFCI
receptacle as the outlet in question.
--
Tom H

Greetings,

Don't worry about the million dollars -- your homeowners should cover it.

William

wrote in message
...
On 3 Feb 2005 09:23:18 -0800, "Matt" wrote:

The contractor is wrong. A cover is not going to protect you from
anything.

Very true, I think the wording is any outside receptacles. No
mentioning whether they are covered or not.

Now this is scary, if the builder/electrician couldn't read that
simple passage and figure the gfci protection was needed, what else
did he miss?

I would get a real house inpection while it's all under warrenty.
Might cost you a full day price for the person to pull outlets and
check breakers, pipping, insulaiton, etc.... but the cost is minimal
if something else is seriously wrong. Example, 300-500 buck inpection
cheaper than a million dollar lawsuit for electricuting someone.

IMHO,

tom @ www.ChopURL.com

Matt wrote:
The contractor is wrong. A cover is not going to protect you from
anything.

Hi,
Ditto. Code or not. both are common sense issue.
Tony

William Deans wrote:
Greetings,

Don't worry about the million dollars -- your homeowners should cover it.

William

wrote in message
...

On 3 Feb 2005 09:23:18 -0800, "Matt" wrote:


The contractor is wrong. A cover is not going to protect you from
anything.

Very true, I think the wording is any outside receptacles. No
mentioning whether they are covered or not.

Now this is scary, if the builder/electrician couldn't read that
simple passage and figure the gfci protection was needed, what else
did he miss?

I would get a real house inpection while it's all under warrenty.
Might cost you a full day price for the person to pull outlets and
check breakers, pipping, insulaiton, etc.... but the cost is minimal
if something else is seriously wrong. Example, 300-500 buck inpection
cheaper than a million dollar lawsuit for electricuting someone.

IMHO,

tom @ www.ChopURL.com






Hi,
Doubt it. If outlet does not meet code, coverage is out the window.
Tony

Matt wrote:
Forget about the code, Kathy.... get the GFI's (assuming they aren't
already a downstream GFI device, as Mike mentioned) and weatherproof
covers.

Hi,
Right. Does safety mean anything to you, Kathy? Code or not I'd install
GFI for peace of mind. They cost so little nowadays.
Tony

"Kathy" wrote in :

Are you saying that the code requires GFCI even it has cover? We are
trying to find what the code says. The contractor has obligation to
make it code compliant.


A GFCI protected circuit is required anywhere water is routinely or has a
high probability of being present. This would most certainly include the
outdoors.
GFCI is required:
Bathrooms
Kitchens ( a minimum of 2 circuits for counter top )
Pools
Basements
Garages
Crawl-space service receptical
Outdoor recepticals
Laundry room (including the dedicated washer circuit)




--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 04:17:29 GMT, Tony Hwang wrote:

William Deans wrote:
Greetings,

Don't worry about the million dollars -- your homeowners should cover it.

William

wrote in message
...

On 3 Feb 2005 09:23:18 -0800, "Matt" wrote:


The contractor is wrong. A cover is not going to protect you from
anything.

Very true, I think the wording is any outside receptacles. No
mentioning whether they are covered or not.

Now this is scary, if the builder/electrician couldn't read that
simple passage and figure the gfci protection was needed, what else
did he miss?

I would get a real house inpection while it's all under warrenty.
Might cost you a full day price for the person to pull outlets and
check breakers, pipping, insulaiton, etc.... but the cost is minimal
if something else is seriously wrong. Example, 300-500 buck inpection
cheaper than a million dollar lawsuit for electricuting someone.

IMHO,

tom @ www.ChopURL.com






Hi,
Doubt it. If outlet does not meet code, coverage is out the window.
Tony


Oh yeah, scarey thing is I think you are right. I'm sure your
insurance company can/will have some clause stating that they would
never insure an illegally wired residence, and you never mentioned it
on your application; so you(the homeowner) or another, committed
fraud. Washing them of any legal/policy responsiblity.

Not a problem, I've heard people with no coverage and high lawsuit
judgements against only have to give up 10% max of their gross income
for life till it's paid off. What's 10% after they take away all your
personal property first? :-P

Doomed,


doomed


doomed........

Kathy wrote:
We have exterior receptacles installed on front and back of the house. Our
city code adopts NEC 2002. We do and waterproof cover on the receptacles but
not GFCI protection. Does the weather cover alone satisfies the code, or we
need both cover and GFCI?
TIA



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Kathy the code requirements are as follows for residential GFCI. There
requirements apply to New constructions and new installations on
existing buildings:

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.
FPN: See 215.9 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for
personnel on feeders.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere
receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8)
shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at
or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to
storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use
Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two
appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in
normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is
cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8).
Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(5) shall not
be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G).
(3) Outdoors
Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied
by a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing
equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the
applicable provisions of Article 426.
(4) Crawl spaces — at or below grade level
(5) Unfinished basements — for purposes of this section, unfinished
basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended
as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like
Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two
appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in
normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is
cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8).
Exception No. 3: A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed
fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have
ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.
Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(5) shall not
be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G).
(6) Kitchens — where the receptacles are installed to serve the
countertop surfaces
(7) Wet bar sinks — where the receptacles are installed to serve the
countertop surfaces and are located within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside
edge of the wet bar sink.
(8) Boathouses


Item 3 is pretty clear, if it is outdoors, it MUST be GFCI Protected.

Hope this helps.

Don

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 04:29:33 +0000, Don LaBrenz
wrote:

Kathy wrote:
We have exterior receptacles installed on front and back of the house. Our
city code adopts NEC 2002. We do and waterproof cover on the receptacles but
not GFCI protection. Does the weather cover alone satisfies the code, or we
need both cover and GFCI?
TIA



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Kathy the code requirements are as follows for residential GFCI. There
requirements apply to New constructions and new installations on
existing buildings:

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.
FPN: See 215.9 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for
personnel on feeders.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere
receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8)
shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at
or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to
storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use
Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two
appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in
normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is
cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8).
Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(5) shall not
be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G).
(3) Outdoors
Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied
by a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing
equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the
applicable provisions of Article 426.
(4) Crawl spaces — at or below grade level
(5) Unfinished basements — for purposes of this section, unfinished
basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended
as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like
Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two
appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in
normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is
cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8).
Exception No. 3: A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed
fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have
ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.
Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(5) shall not
be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G).
(6) Kitchens — where the receptacles are installed to serve the
countertop surfaces
(7) Wet bar sinks — where the receptacles are installed to serve the
countertop surfaces and are located within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside
edge of the wet bar sink.
(8) Boathouses


Item 3 is pretty clear, if it is outdoors, it MUST be GFCI Protected.

Hope this helps.

Don

You're right Don. Being a biased customer of a home builder(I live in
one), I have a really hard time believing that a regular receptacle
outlet outside was missed, even two. Makes really concerned about
what else they missed, if the obvious stuff was overlooked.



later,


tom @ www.Love-Calculators.com