I'm getting my kitchen torn out and remodeled, even a new floor. Since
it's a mud-job, the contractor told me to go with radiant floor
heating... he said it's much better and more efficient than baseboard
heating. I have baseboard in there now, but it would be removed in
order to make room for a bench, etc. He claims -- why put in more
baseboard or toe-kick baseboard heat when you could install radiant
heat since the floor is up.
So, is it better? What are your thoughts?
Thanks!

wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm getting my kitchen torn out and remodeled, even a new floor. Since
it's a mud-job, the contractor told me to go with radiant floor
heating... he said it's much better and more efficient than baseboard
heating. I have baseboard in there now, but it would be removed in
order to make room for a bench, etc. He claims -- why put in more
baseboard or toe-kick baseboard heat when you could install radiant
heat since the floor is up.
So, is it better? What are your thoughts?
Thanks!


I'd go with the radiant. I rarely wear shoes in the house. You are going
to have a tile floor, so just think how much more comfy your feet will be in
the winter. In my house the floor is even cooler by the door. Radiant
would solve that. This is a good time to make the change.

It is not so simple your baseboards are probably taking a much higher
water temp then the plastic radiant hoses can handle . A guess is
radiant will not take 140 but but your house baseboards and your present
water temp is set much higher say 160-190. There may be some equipment
that can temper the radiant loop. . Then there is electric radiant to
see if that is worthwhile you have to know your price comparison of gas
to electric. Im in the midwest and my electric cost is 3x that of NG gas
per BTU. Radiant is best especialy if ceramic or stone will be use for
flooring or the basement is much cooler, but it depends on how you do
it.

You need a real heating HVAC pro out to do a load calculation and all,
who has done this before. Not a contractor guessing, if it is not done
just right you will be very very unhappy.

Greetings,

a) I would prefer radiant heat because it keeps your feet warm and doesn't
look ugly.
b) Your contractor is probably wrong about it being "more efficient" if it
is gas.
c) ... unless he means "more efficient" but it will cost you 2-4 times as
much because it is electric.

Hope this helps,
William

PS: Don't let your contractor scam you with false promises of efficiency.
As him for TCO (total cost of ownership) numbers. I bet you baseboard is
cheaper per BTU.


wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm getting my kitchen torn out and remodeled, even a new floor. Since
it's a mud-job, the contractor told me to go with radiant floor
heating... he said it's much better and more efficient than baseboard
heating. I have baseboard in there now, but it would be removed in
order to make room for a bench, etc. He claims -- why put in more
baseboard or toe-kick baseboard heat when you could install radiant
heat since the floor is up.
So, is it better? What are your thoughts?
Thanks!

Well, thank you all for your insights. My home is oil/baseboard hot
water heating and my kitchen is very small, so the contractor believes
removing the large radiator will save us space for cabinets, seating,
etc. There are basically two options available to me:
1. Baseboard toe-kick heating, whereby a small fan moves the heated air
from behind the cabinets to small vents located at the front (at your
toes). Sounds like a lot of wasted energy heating the bottom of my
cabinets.
2. Radiant heat under the tile within the new mud floor job. They
would install a new heating zone just for the kitchen and place the
thermostat in a good location.
He claims that the radiant heat is a better option because it's more
efficient in this application, and more comfortable, and since either
way the zone would have to be drained and the pipe cut, I might as well
just do it. He claims the plastic piping is fine for the temperature
the oil burner will dish out. He also says he wouldn't place piping
under the fridge or cabinets because that's a waste, but there would be
more near the door. I don't know about cost-efficiency... the house is
very tight and new. I'm not sure about the thermostat location either,
or how low I will be able to let it go while maintaining a reasonable
recovery time.
Does anyone have any thoughts about what this guy has told me? Is he
nuts about the temperature or comfort level?
Thanks again...

William Deans wrote:
Greetings,

a) I would prefer radiant heat because it keeps your feet warm and
doesn't
look ugly.
b) Your contractor is probably wrong about it being "more efficient"
if it
is gas.
c) ... unless he means "more efficient" but it will cost you 2-4
times as
much because it is electric.

Hope this helps,
William

PS: Don't let your contractor scam you with false promises of
efficiency.
As him for TCO (total cost of ownership) numbers. I bet you
baseboard is
cheaper per BTU.


wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm getting my kitchen torn out and remodeled, even a new floor.
Since
it's a mud-job, the contractor told me to go with radiant floor
heating... he said it's much better and more efficient than
baseboard
heating. I have baseboard in there now, but it would be removed in
order to make room for a bench, etc. He claims -- why put in more
baseboard or toe-kick baseboard heat when you could install radiant
heat since the floor is up.
So, is it better? What are your thoughts?
Thanks!

wrote in message
Does anyone have any thoughts about what this guy has told me? Is he
nuts about the temperature or comfort level?
Thanks again...


Sounds like a good setup. PEX Tubing is good for the application in the
radiant heat as it can take 180 degrees.
http://www.ppfahome.org/pressure.html

In my house the coldest part of the floor is near the door so having a bit
more heat there is probably a very good idea. In my house, the baseboard
heating does very little and the vents are closed. Heating the room is not
a consideration, but with a ceramic floor, it would be very nice to have it
warmed a bit. It only have to reach 100 degrees to feel comfy with bare
feet.

What is your boiler set to 170- 180? 190? go look at it. You do not
want to be able to cook food on your floor plus you will ruin your
floor. Get a real hvac pro out who will calculate and know what is
right, not guess. Sounds like your contractor is a will doitall hack.

Whats your point Heat Man, Im just pointing out what the OP may not have
been told. Suppose Contractor runs 180 through the loop because he is
like Dave.

Ransley, get your head out of your bottom part.


"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
It is not so simple your baseboards are probably taking a much higher
water temp then the plastic radiant hoses can handle . A guess is
radiant will not take 140 but but your house baseboards and your present
water temp is set much higher say 160-190.

PEX tubing will take 140° water.

There may be some equipment
that can temper the radiant loop. .

There's a lot of equipment out there that will do that.


Then there is electric radiant to
see if that is worthwhile you have to know your price comparison of gas
to electric. Im in the midwest and my electric cost is 3x that of NG gas
per BTU. Radiant is best especialy if ceramic or stone will be use for
flooring or the basement is much cooler, but it depends on how you do
it.


Radiant can be put under any surface, wood, carpet, ceramic, marble, etc....


You need a real heating HVAC pro out to do a load calculation and all,
who has done this before. Not a contractor guessing, if it is not done
just right you will be very very unhappy.

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
Whats your point Heat Man, Im just pointing out what the OP may not have
been told. Suppose Contractor runs 180 through the loop because he is
like Dave.


PEX can take 180. Check out the manufacturers. It is tested for 210 @ 100
psi

In article AJLLd.1435$ya6.186@trndny01, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
Whats your point Heat Man, Im just pointing out what the OP may not have
been told. Suppose Contractor runs 180 through the loop because he is
like Dave.

PEX can take 180. Check out the manufacturers. It is tested for 210 @ 100
psi

That doesn't matter. You CAN NOT run 180 water into a radiant floor.
Suppose a baby or older person walks out onto that floor in bare feet?
A mixing valve can take care of this for you.


--
Like, in not getting harsh winters, y'mean? As I look out my window
upon the British landscape it's white with snow and colder'n a witch's
tit. I suppose you'll be one of those soft Southron sodomites, so near
France you're practically a wog. --- Semolina Pilchard in alt.tasteless

So pex can take 180, good , can the floor , can your Feet. At 180 you
could put a pot of beans and a pot of stew on the floor and have it
cooked when you awake. I think crock pots cook at 160. Radiant floor
should be warm , not hot. Ive lived with radiant and the floor was a
comfortable Warm.
My point is they need a pro to calculate load and plan it and do it
right. It may need its own loop, tempering, thermostat and pump as the
radiators will operate at a higher temp with more mass. When you mix
systems, ex. Large cast iron radiators, baseboard, radiant, or fan
forced HW heat on the same system unless you know the trade mixing often
means uneveness in heat. The previous owner of my residence removed cast
iron radiators in one room to make for more room and put in high out put
fan forced heaters , but he forgot radiators hold heat for an hour, so
the room never stayed warm. So I ripped them out and brought back in the
original and all is fine. Im just pointing out a pro is needed to be
sure it is done correctly. Hacked in it will be bad.

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
So pex can take 180, good , can the floor , can your Feet. At 180 you
could put a pot of beans and a pot of stew on the floor and have it
cooked when you awake. I think crock pots cook at 160. Radiant floor
should be warm , not hot. Ive lived with radiant and the floor was a
comfortable Warm.

I don't know exactly what temperature the floor will be, but it will not be
180 degrees. The water leaves the heater and begins to lose temperature
along the way. Once it is in the tubing, the heat is spread out along the
floor giving a lot of dilution. I understand you point that it may be
hotter than needed, but you are well aware of the laws of physics and heat
distribution.


My point is they need a pro to calculate load and plan it and do it
right. It may need its own loop, tempering, thermostat and pump as the
radiators will operate at a higher temp with more mass.

I agree with that.

Ed radiant loops are often set to 110 or things can get a bit
uncomfortable under foot if you know what I mean. You dont just mix it
into a different system , you give it its own loop, pump, tempering
devise and thermostat. Or you are guessing about success. A real pro is
needed to do it right.

Often set to is a good point. 110° won't usually do squat under a carpet,
though.

Okay, 'm Ransley,' since you're now such an expert, what's the optimum floor
temp for a radiant floor?

You're almost as bad as HVAC Fella sometimes


"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
Ed radiant loops are often set to 110 or things can get a bit
uncomfortable under foot if you know what I mean. You dont just mix it
into a different system , you give it its own loop, pump, tempering
devise and thermostat. Or you are guessing about success. A real pro is
needed to do it right.

Im no Hvac pro, I dont know Optimum temp, only that 180 is too warm.
Dave ? he lies for a sale. Im just a H.O. Didnt you hear him say
Goodman is all great equipment now, it just got better since that is
his main product.

Heat man: they are having a ceramic floor in kitchen, what do you
recomend

My boiler is set to 140.

Keeping warm via hot air: works by conduction, but
not conduction like sitting bareassed on a warm
block of steel (much heat transferred to you
per second),

but via super UN-dense air, with minuscule ability
to store heat (per cubic foot) than eg steel.

I recall from a thermodynaics course eons ago
that whatever the materials, the amount of heat
energy flowing from one to the other, per second,
is 100% *proportional* to the temperature *difference*
between the two.

So, while an 80-degree (F) block of steel would
be able to transfer enough heat to you (r butt) to
keep you toasty comfortable even with an open window
with 30 or 40 degrees outside, perhaps, no can do
via hot air. Temp diff must be much greater than
the 99.6 - 80 = 20-degree difference via the block of
steel.

So you gotta blow hot air at you for the same warming,
but so hit that it's stifling (sp?), making you feel
really crappy, even nauseaous.

Then, there's heating via radiation, like by a cast-iron
radiator, an electric (fanless) radiator, the sun, etc.

Those pictures of resort-like ski-areas, all these people
lying around a swimming pool, in their bathing suits,
when it's maybe 30-degrees -- they're kept warm by
radiation from the sun (and by having the wind blocked).

And it's a *much* nicer experience than being kept warm
only by a blast of hot air (sun blocked from warming you).

----

Nice thing about cast-iron radiators is that you can
open the window, allowing nice (cold) fresh air to
circulate through the room somewhat, and yet you're
still warm (via the radiation).



(I grew up in Texas (san antonio), and our house had
forced hot-air, and it would almost make me vomit.
Later, I went way north, and experienced the cast-iron
radiators -- what a difference!!!! YMMV, however )

David

David Combs wrote:

I recall from a thermodynaics course eons ago that whatever the materials,
the amount of heat energy flowing from one to the other, per second,
is 100% *proportional* to the temperature *difference* between the two.

I'm afraid you recall wrong, for radiation.

...an 80-degree (F) block of steel would be able to transfer enough heat
to you (r butt) to keep you toasty comfortable...

It would cool your butt, compared to a pillow.

Nick

In article , (David Combs) wrote:
Keeping warm via hot air: works by conduction, but
not conduction like sitting bareassed on a warm
block of steel (much heat transferred to you
per second),

but via super UN-dense air, with minuscule ability
to store heat (per cubic foot) than eg steel.

I recall from a thermodynaics course eons ago
that whatever the materials, the amount of heat
energy flowing from one to the other, per second,
is 100% *proportional* to the temperature *difference*
between the two.

With respect to conduction, yes...

So, while an 80-degree (F) block of steel would
be able to transfer enough heat to you (r butt) to
keep you toasty comfortable even with an open window
with 30 or 40 degrees outside, perhaps, no can do
via hot air. Temp diff must be much greater than
the 99.6 - 80 = 20-degree difference via the block of
steel.

Tell you what: you drop trou, then sit on an 80 deg F block of steel, and tell
us if it feels warm. Stay there a while.

This may come as a surprise to you, but if a 98.6-degree human sits on an
80-degree block of steel, the direction of heat transfer is *from* the human,
*to* the steel. Not the other way around. After thirty minutes bareassed on
that block of steel, you're going to be shivering.

So you gotta blow hot air at you for the same warming,
but so hit that it's stifling (sp?), making you feel
really crappy, even nauseaous.

Nonsense. Forced air heat isn't "stifling" hot.

Then, there's heating via radiation, like by a cast-iron
radiator, an electric (fanless) radiator, the sun, etc.

Those pictures of resort-like ski-areas, all these people
lying around a swimming pool, in their bathing suits,
when it's maybe 30-degrees -- they're kept warm by
radiation from the sun (and by having the wind blocked).

Uh-huh. Right. I guess you mean 30 deg *C* here.

And it's a *much* nicer experience than being kept warm
only by a blast of hot air (sun blocked from warming you).

Different strokes...

Nice thing about cast-iron radiators is that you can
open the window, allowing nice (cold) fresh air to
circulate through the room somewhat, and yet you're
still warm (via the radiation).

You have an *odd* definition of "warm".

(I grew up in Texas (san antonio), and our house had
forced hot-air, and it would almost make me vomit.

Well, that's the source of your trouble - you shoulda used an air conditioner.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , (David
Combs) wrote:
...
I recall from a thermodynaics course eons ago
that whatever the materials, the amount of heat
energy flowing from one to the other, per second,
is 100% *proportional* to the temperature *difference*
between the two.

With respect to conduction, yes...


It is also true for Newton's law of cooling which governs
conventive heat transfer. Radiant floor heating heats your
feet by conduction and the air in the room by convection.
Radiative heat transfer is negligible, the descriptor 'radiant'
is a misnomer, similar to the 'radiator' in a car.

....

This may come as a surprise to you, but if a 98.6-degree human sits
on an
80-degree block of steel, the direction of heat transfer is *from*
the human,
*to* the steel. Not the other way around. After thirty minutes
bareassed on
that block of steel, you're going to be shivering.


Agreed but with the caveat that 98.6 is the normal temp for under
your tongue. I dunno what the normal temperature is for your
butt cheeks.



Then, there's heating via radiation, like by a cast-iron
radiator, an electric (fanless) radiator, the sun, etc.

The first two examples heat by convection. Radiative heat
tranfer is negligible in a convective environment for such
small temperature differences. Even though readiative heat
transfer is proportionate the difference in the Fourth
Power of th eabsolute temperature, the coefficient is
typicall very small compared to the convective heat transfer
coefficient so that free convection dominates unless in a
weightless environment (but still dominates if there is a
fan), or a vaccuum.



Nice thing about cast-iron radiators is that you can
open the window, allowing nice (cold) fresh air to
circulate through the room somewhat, and yet you're
still warm (via the radiation).


I don't think so.

--

FF

wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

(David Combs) wrote:

I recall from a thermodynaics course eons ago that... the amount
of heat energy flowing from one to the other, per second, is 100%
*proportional* to the temperature *difference* between the two.

With respect to conduction, yes...

It is also true for Newton's law of cooling which governs
conventive heat transfer.

Conventive? :-)

Radiant floor heating heats your feet by conduction...

Not much, compared to the rest of your body.

Radiative heat transfer is negligible...

Wrong.

Even though readiative heat transfer is proportionate the difference
in the Fourth Power of th eabsolute temperature, the coefficient is
typicall very small compared to the convective heat transfer
coefficient...

A 90 F body in a 70 F room might lose 30 Btu/h-F-ft^2 by convection and
0.1714x10^-8((90+460)^4-(70+460)^4) = 22 Btu/h-F-ft^2 by radiation.

Nick

wrote in message ...
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

(David Combs) wrote:

I recall from a thermodynaics course eons ago that... the amount
of heat energy flowing from one to the other, per second, is 100%
*proportional* to the temperature *difference* between the two.

With respect to conduction, yes...

It is also true for Newton's law of cooling which governs
conventive heat transfer.

Conventive? :-)

Radiant floor heating heats your feet by conduction...

Not much, compared to the rest of your body.

Radiative heat transfer is negligible...

Wrong.

Even though readiative heat transfer is proportionate the difference
in the Fourth Power of th eabsolute temperature, the coefficient is
typicall very small compared to the convective heat transfer
coefficient...

A 90 F body in a 70 F room might lose 30 Btu/h-F-ft^2 by convection and
0.1714x10^-8((90+460)^4-(70+460)^4) = 22 Btu/h-F-ft^2 by radiation.

Nick

I think it's wise that when it comes to calculating convective heat
transfer in radiant heated spaces that the conditioned panel
orientation should be considered...ie: wall, ceiling or floor and
whether the panel is in the heating or cooling mode and also what % of
the surface is mechanical conditioned. The other calculation which
influences the convective component is the MRT vis a vis AUST.

Here's a link to a spreadsheet which considers most of these factors.

http://www.healthyheating.com/solutions.htm