I've been interested in reducing our gas consumption for heat, as in
the past 2 mo. our cost per ccf has risen 30%. We've added insulation,
caulked, weatherstripped, and this past weekend with help from the
group, installed a programmable thermostat.

Has anyone compared the use of a (gas) fireplace with insert and blower
with a programmable thermostat and furnace, or other scenarios to
determine consumption (i.e., does the pilot light for the FP consume
measureable quantities, etc.)?

I've been searching but have not found information (yet) that would
provide better data collection than reading the analog meter outside
over the course of a few days. I know there are other variables...the
weather outside, the efficiency of the furnace/fireplace, etc., but
would be interested in what others have found.

Thank you,
Dave

wrote in oups.com:

Has anyone compared the use of a (gas) fireplace with insert and blower
with a programmable thermostat and furnace, or other scenarios to
determine consumption (i.e., does the pilot light for the FP consume
measureable quantities, etc.)?

You can buy furnaces that with 95% efficiency. Even the best
fireplaces run around 70%.
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/equipment/eng...fireplaces.cfm

I've been searching but have not found information (yet) that would
provide better data collection than reading the analog meter outside
over the course of a few days. I know there are other variables...the
weather outside, the efficiency of the furnace/fireplace, etc., but
would be interested in what others have found.

If you want to measure efficiency improvements, the only variables you need
to measure are energy usage and outside temperature. Check with your fuel
supplier -- they will likely have a web page with the local
heating degree day data. This will save you from having to measure the
outside temperature every hour.

You can then measure your efficiency every month in consistent terms
(gigajoules per heating degree day). Do a google search for
"heating degree day" for more info.

A 'gas log fireplace' will not heat your home properly ; they are
more for asthetics. Usually, they keep the room they are in comfy but
thats about it. No...a standing pilot doesnt cost alot to keep it going
-- maybe $4-8 per month in gas cost. If by chance you have access to
free (or cheap) WOOD., then, heating your home with a fireplace
insert/wood Stove that has a blower on it, IS the way to go. My friend
does this every winter, and has saved a considerable amount of money on
gas costs. He has yet to turn on his gas furnace --- his freestanding
Box type Stove purchased at Menards for about $170, is centrally located
in his living area on the first floor and he can keep his entire second
floor at 65 f. even in cold outside temps. He has stairs that are also
pretty much in the center of his house so the heat goes up there
readily. His house was built in the 1930's and is not a very tight house
either. Keep in mind that heating with wood in a Stove does create
some inconvenience / mess, rounding up a big supply of wood, stove
attention, etc...but there is a nice payoff if you can do it. You
should visit a local Fireplace Store showroom so you can see how much
heat each kind gives off.

If you want to explore 'gas heat' options...like the poster above said,
there are 90 plus efficiency gas furnaces if you want to go that route .
Depending on where you are in the country, payback on an installation
(if you currently have a 65% standard efficiency gas furnace) is roughly
8-12 years. Not a bad payback really. Plus, it will make your house more
saleable. Get a few bids on the installation, as, prices usually vary
alot amongst Contractors.

If you live in a rural area, going with a CornBurning Stove can be very
advantegous if you can get feed corn cheap. This sort of stove has an
automatic auger on it and feeds in a preselected 2-4 kernels of corn
every so often to keep the fire going. ANother friend of mine has one
and its in the basement of his single story home ; keeps his entire
house at 70 f when its -10 f outside. Pretty compact stove but has a
high initial purchase price . You have to consider venting of it too.
That can be tricky and expensive. Do a google under Corn Burning Stoves
if your interested.

Definetly go with things like : a programmable thermostat, automatic
timer for your water heater preset to ONLY the times you actually use
hot water or...go with an instaneous water heater, Tyvek House Wrap is
a must and really made a difference on my house as did vinyl siding with
styrofoam on the backside, insulate the heck out of the attic, go with
thermopane type 'e' glass windows, tight fitting exterior doors, seal up
all crawlspace outside vents tight in the winter, raise the fridge temp
as high as practical, only use lights in the section of the house that
is occupied, etc...Contact the Dept. of Energy for tips on cutting
fuel bills ; they have materials they send out via regular mail for
free, or a nominal charge.

Good luck ! Norman

P.S. Oh yeah...if your married , take better advantage of body heat

wrote:
I've been interested in reducing our gas consumption for heat, as in
the past 2 mo. our cost per ccf has risen 30%. We've added
insulation, caulked, weatherstripped, and this past weekend with help
from the group, installed a programmable thermostat.

Has anyone compared the use of a (gas) fireplace with insert and
blower with a programmable thermostat and furnace, or other scenarios
to determine consumption (i.e., does the pilot light for the FP
consume measureable quantities, etc.)?

All the data I have seen places a modern gas furnace far ahead of any
insert or fireplace. Yes, you could measure the pilot, I would guess most
will cost you a couple of dollars a month during heating season and twice
that during cooling season.


I've been searching but have not found information (yet) that would
provide better data collection than reading the analog meter outside
over the course of a few days. I know there are other variables...the
weather outside, the efficiency of the furnace/fireplace, etc., but
would be interested in what others have found.

Thank you,
Dave

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

wrote in message
oups.com...

Has anyone compared the use of a (gas) fireplace with insert and blower
with a programmable thermostat and furnace, or other scenarios to
determine consumption (i.e., does the pilot light for the FP consume
measureable quantities, etc.)?



Typical gas fireplace inserts, even ones with a blower, will not be as
efficiant as a gas furnace. The only way you may save on gas with a fire
plce is if you do not try to heat the whole house with it. If you heat just
the one room it is in and let the rest of the house cool down, you may see
some savings. The pilot flame consumes a fairly insignificant amout of gas.
The pilot on my old furnace would never consume enough gas to carry the
utility charge over the minimun of $6 in the summer.
IMO a gas fireplace is good for backup heat, (no electricity needed), or
just 'cuz you want a fireplace, the romance of it perhaps. You will not see
a gas savings with one.
If you want to save money you are on the right track, insulate, weather
strip, plastic over most of the windows, perhaps replace the furnace with a
new, more efficiant model. Turn the heat down a few degrees, and wear
another layer of clothing in the house. This will save you more money than
anything.
Greg

wrote in message
oups.com...
I've been interested in reducing our gas consumption for heat, as in
the past 2 mo. our cost per ccf has risen 30%. We've added insulation,
caulked, weatherstripped, and this past weekend with help from the
group, installed a programmable thermostat.

Has anyone compared the use of a (gas) fireplace with insert and blower
with a programmable thermostat and furnace, or other scenarios to
determine consumption (i.e., does the pilot light for the FP consume
measureable quantities, etc.)?

I've been searching but have not found information (yet) that would
provide better data collection than reading the analog meter outside
over the course of a few days. I know there are other variables...the
weather outside, the efficiency of the furnace/fireplace, etc., but
would be interested in what others have found.

Thank you,
Dave


This is Turtle.

I have never met a fire place heater gas that could be more effiecent as a gas
hot air furnace. Now I have seen some that will come close but never beat them.

TURTLE

"JustCallMe Norman" wrote in message
No...a standing pilot doesnt cost alot to keep it going
-- maybe $4-8 per month in gas cost.


I does not cost anything additional to keep lit during heating season. It
gives off heat. You want heat. Turn it off during the off season.

If by chance you have access to
free (or cheap) WOOD., then, heating your home with a fireplace
insert/wood Stove that has a blower on it, IS the way to go. My friend
does this every winter, and has saved a considerable amount of money on
gas costs.

Free or cheap yes. The cost of wood right now is exceeding the cost of oil
in my area. When I get it cheap, it does a very good job.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I've been interested in reducing our gas consumption for heat, as in
the past 2 mo. our cost per ccf has risen 30%. We've added insulation,
caulked, weatherstripped, and this past weekend with help from the
group, installed a programmable thermostat.

Has anyone compared the use of a (gas) fireplace with insert and blower
with a programmable thermostat and furnace, or other scenarios to
determine consumption (i.e., does the pilot light for the FP consume
measureable quantities, etc.)?

I've been searching but have not found information (yet) that would
provide better data collection than reading the analog meter outside
over the course of a few days. I know there are other variables...the
weather outside, the efficiency of the furnace/fireplace, etc., but
would be interested in what others have found.

Thank you,
Dave

I had a gas fire place and gas heat in the last home. When I really wanted
to heat the home I used the furnace. When I was looking to warm the great
room I used the fireplace. Knowing full well that the furnace was the less
expensive method to heat.

I remember that a standing pilot light is 30% of the gas bill. That is why
here in AZ we shut off furnace pilots during non-heating months.

=A0=A0No...a standing pilot doesnt cost alot to keep it going -- maybe
$4-8 per month in gas cost.

'It does not cost anything additional to keep lit during heating season.
It gives off heat. You want heat. Turn it off during the off season.'

ME: Whether you want heat or not, the pilot flame cost SOMETHING
additional to keep it lit ; Whenever you have natural gas being used
(a flame)...it is allowing the gas meter to turn. In the summer, you
can turn off the pilot if you like.

"JustCallMe Norman" wrote in message
news:3397-41D880AC-

ME: Whether you want heat or not, the pilot flame cost SOMETHING
additional to keep it lit ; Whenever you have natural gas being used
(a flame)...it is allowing the gas meter to turn.

-Why would it add cost.?

Compare two heaters in an identical situation.

A living area needs 1000 cubic feet of gas to be burned to maintain the
desired temperature for a week.

Situation A is a heater with pilot light.

Situation B is a heater with electronic ignition.

For the sake of argument, let's say the pilot light can burn 20 cubic feet
of gas a week. So, the pilot light is burning for seven days and it gives
off the heat contained in 20 cu. ft. of gas. The burner will cycle off and
on and burn 980 cubic feet of gas. House if comfy. Meantime, the pilot
light is burning the 20 cu. ft and small as it is, the heat is kept in the
house. That means the big burner will burn a tad less.

In situation B, their is no pilot light. The thermostat calls for heat,
turns on the heater and the electronic ignition starts the fire. Over the
course of a week, it will still burn the identical 1000 cu. ft. of gas to
satisfy the requirement.

In the summer or on day when heat is not needed, the pilot is burning fuel
at additional cost.

Look at another situation. People will sometime use a microwave to cook
something instead of heating up the oven. in the non heating season, this
makes sense and even more so when you are paying to cool the air. During
the heating season, it makes no sense. The heat from the oven adds to the
heat needed to keep the house comfortable. There is no added cost.

Heat is heat no matter the source. Light bulbs, the TV, computer monitor
all add heat to a room and in the winter it is supplementing the central
heating system. Go ahead, toast that bagel and warm the house a bit! Its
physics. We can't change it.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in
m:


"JustCallMe Norman" wrote in message
No...a standing pilot doesnt cost alot to keep it going
-- maybe $4-8 per month in gas cost.


I does not cost anything additional to keep lit during heating season.
It gives off heat. You want heat. Turn it off during the off season.

It may cost extra, depending on the efficiency of the fireplace. In other
words, how much of that heat is just going up the chimney?

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in
m:


"JustCallMe Norman" wrote in message
news:3397-41D880AC-

ME: Whether you want heat or not, the pilot flame cost SOMETHING
additional to keep it lit ; Whenever you have natural gas being used
(a flame)...it is allowing the gas meter to turn.

-Why would it add cost.?

Because some percentage of that heat is being wasted. The pilot light by
itself may not have as good an efficiency as when the furnace is turned on.

[snip]
Heat is heat no matter the source. Light bulbs, the TV, computer
monitor all add heat to a room and in the winter it is supplementing
the central heating system. Go ahead, toast that bagel and warm the
house a bit! Its physics. We can't change it.

However, the amount you pay for that heat differs dramatically. Electrical
energy is more expensive than that obtained by natural gas.

"Murray Peterson" wrote in message
...
wrote in
oups.com:

Has anyone compared the use of a (gas) fireplace with insert and blower
with a programmable thermostat and furnace, or other scenarios to
determine consumption (i.e., does the pilot light for the FP consume
measureable quantities, etc.)?

You can buy furnaces that with 95% efficiency. Even the best
fireplaces run around 70%.
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/equipment/eng...fireplaces.cfm

Aren't the "ventless" gas fireplaces closer to 100% efficient?

Bob

"Bob" wrote in
news:ujkCd.844822$8_6.687619@attbi_s04:


"Murray Peterson" wrote in message
...
wrote in
oups.com:

Has anyone compared the use of a (gas) fireplace with insert and
blower with a programmable thermostat and furnace, or other
scenarios to determine consumption (i.e., does the pilot light for
the FP consume measureable quantities, etc.)?

You can buy furnaces that with 95% efficiency. Even the best
fireplaces run around 70%.
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/equipment/eng...fireplaces.cfm

Aren't the "ventless" gas fireplaces closer to 100% efficient?

Yes, but do you want the combustion products exhausted into your living
room? Many governments have banned them entirely.

Thanks to all who posted. I wanted to mention a few notes as a follow
up.

In addition to what was mentioned here, I've read some sources on the
web that the pilot itself should run about $5/mo, which is in line with
most of the replies.

Also, I was thinking of possibly combining the effort of the furnace
with the fireplace in the morning, but over the past few days we've
noticed that the temp rises fairly quickly in the morning. It would
come down to whether the longer burn of the furnace was more efficient
than the FP, which would artificially affect the thermostat and trip
the furnace (they're in the same room).

Surprisingly, to me at least, is that our heat dissipation appears to
be about 1 deg/hour. I don't know if that's comparatively good or bad
yet, but it is much different than what our old mercury thermostat
would report (a much faster decline). At the current settings, by the
time the temp gets to where we're allowing it to drop, it's time to
heat the house again?! I'm hopeful I can pull that back to increase
the downtime of the furnace and reduce consumption without much
discomfort.

Anyway, thanks to everyone who responded. Have a great day!
Thanks,
Dave

wrote in message
Surprisingly, to me at least, is that our heat dissipation appears to
be about 1 deg/hour. I don't know if that's comparatively good or bad
yet, but it is much different than what our old mercury thermostat
would report (a much faster decline).

That decline will change based on the outside temperature. It will not
decline at all in the summer but can easily drop a couple of degrees and
hour in very cold weather. While all your efforts for conserving the
running of the heater are good, be sure you have lots of insulation.


At the current settings, by the
time the temp gets to where we're allowing it to drop, it's time to
heat the house again?! I'm hopeful I can pull that back to increase
the downtime of the furnace and reduce consumption without much
discomfort.

I don't understand this.

JustCallMe Norman wrote:
A 'gas log fireplace' will not heat your home properly ; they are
more for asthetics. Usually, they keep the room they are in comfy but
thats about it. No...a standing pilot doesnt cost alot to keep it going
-- maybe $4-8 per month in gas cost. If by chance you have access to
free (or cheap) WOOD., then, heating your home with a fireplace
insert/wood Stove that has a blower on it, IS the way to go. My friend
does this every winter, and has saved a considerable amount of money on
gas costs. He has yet to turn on his gas furnace --- his freestanding
Box type Stove purchased at Menards for about $170, is centrally located
in his living area on the first floor and he can keep his entire second
floor at 65 f. even in cold outside temps. He has stairs that are also
pretty much in the center of his house so the heat goes up there
readily. His house was built in the 1930's and is not a very tight house
either. Keep in mind that heating with wood in a Stove does create
some inconvenience / mess, rounding up a big supply of wood, stove
attention, etc...but there is a nice payoff if you can do it. You
should visit a local Fireplace Store showroom so you can see how much
heat each kind gives off.


Except for when the house was built the above describes mine very well.
Built in '48 it is a center stairwell cape cod style. Fireplace is
centrally situated in the living room. It easily heats the entire
house. We're talking high 80's downstairs with mid 70's upstairs when
the exterior temp is +10f.

My unit is the Avalon Rainier which is their smallest. Only hassle is
the specs call for 20" logs which mean I need to order 16" locally. To
control costs I order my wood between April and June when the supplier
is offering 20% discounts to generate business. Ideal as this assures
nicely seasoned wood when needed come Autumn.

What I haven't seen in this thread as of yet is another key advantage to
a wood burning setup, heat when the power goes out. With ice forecasted
for tonight I won't be worried about keeping the house warm if the wires
go down.

In article ,
Jim wrote:

JustCallMe Norman wrote:
..... If by chance you have access to
free (or cheap) WOOD., then, heating your home with a fireplace
insert/wood Stove that has a blower on it, IS the way to go. My friend


What I haven't seen in this thread as of yet is another key advantage to
a wood burning setup, heat when the power goes out. With ice forecasted
for tonight I won't be worried about keeping the house warm if the wires
go down.

When power is out the blower doesn't work, it helps to have an airtight
that doesn't need a blower or a battery backup for the blower (inverter).

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

At the current settings, by the
time the temp gets to where we're allowing it to drop, it's time to
heat the house again?! I'm hopeful I can pull that back to
increase
the downtime of the furnace and reduce consumption without much
discomfort.

I don't understand this.

My understanding is that the energy saved while the temperature drops
is roughly equal to the energy necessary to reheat to the original
temp. The savings comes from the energy saved during the time in
between the drop and the rise. So, if I'm hitting the minimum temp at
about the time I have to reheat, I should be able to start my temp drop
earlier to increase the time the temperature is at its lowest level as
we sleep and increase the (low energy) time that the temperature is not
maintained at peak levels.

Dave

wrote in message
My understanding is that the energy saved while the temperature drops
is roughly equal to the energy necessary to reheat to the original
temp. The savings comes from the energy saved during the time in
between the drop and the rise. So, if I'm hitting the minimum temp at
about the time I have to reheat, I should be able to start my temp drop
earlier to increase the time the temperature is at its lowest level as
we sleep and increase the (low energy) time that the temperature is not
maintained at peak levels.

Dave


OK, now it makes sense. As the temperature differential increases, so does
the rate of heat flow. Maintaining a lower temperature longer will amount
to greater savings.