I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid
and stranded #12.
I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure.
I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid?
If not, then what? Thanks.

The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll
likely get about 37 other different opinions...

You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the
wire nut.

toller wrote:
I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid
and stranded #12.
I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure.
I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid?
If not, then what? Thanks.

Use pliers to twist and tighten the stranded wire onto the solid and then
twist your wire connectors onto the splice.



"toller" wrote in message
...
I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid
and stranded #12.
I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure.
I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid?
If not, then what? Thanks.

Subject: How to connect #12 stranded to #10 solid
From: "John Grabowski"
Date: 12/24/2004 7:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Use pliers to twist and tighten the stranded wire onto the solid and then
twist your wire connectors onto the splice.



"toller" wrote in message
...
I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid
and stranded #12.
I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure.
I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid?
If not, then what? Thanks.



why are are we connecting #10 & #12 conductors?

which wire is upstream? & what is capacity of the circuit breaker?

cheers
Bob

"Bob K 207" wrote in message
...
Subject: How to connect #12 stranded to #10 solid
From: "John Grabowski"
Date: 12/24/2004 7:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Use pliers to twist and tighten the stranded wire onto the solid and then
twist your wire connectors onto the splice.



"toller" wrote in message
...
I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10
solid
and stranded #12.
I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure.
I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid?
If not, then what? Thanks.



why are are we connecting #10 & #12 conductors?

which wire is upstream? & what is capacity of the circuit breaker?

I am hardwiring a transfer switch. The cable from the generator is solid
10, and the internal wiring on the switch is standed 12.

toller wrote:

I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid
and stranded #12.
I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure.
I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid?
If not, then what? Thanks.


These will clamp those wires together tighter than a bull's backside in
fly season:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/pro...740735&ccitem=

But you'll have to wrap the hell out of them with tape to make sure the
electrons can't get loose. If it was me, I'd solder 'em.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll
likely get about 37 other different opinions...

I thought a connection that relied on solder was a code violation?

You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the
wire nut.

Tin it with solder? Will it hold together when I twist it?

i agree. it may be overkill, but its cheap, easy, and works every time.

randy

"Robert Barr" wrote in message
m...
The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll
likely get about 37 other different opinions...

You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the
wire nut.

toller wrote:
I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10
solid and stranded #12.
I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure.
I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid?
If not, then what? Thanks.

toller wrote:
I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid
and stranded #12.
I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure.
I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid?
If not, then what? Thanks.


Maybe you are using the wrong size of wire nut.

"toller" wrote in message
...


The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll
likely get about 37 other different opinions...

I thought a connection that relied on solder was a code violation?

You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the
wire nut.

Tin it with solder? Will it hold together when I twist it?

yup. if you tin it, not encase it....

randy

regular old red scotchlock/ideal wirenut/wingnut
twist the stranded
line it up with the solid,
clip the ends off evenly,
then poke em into and then twist the wirenut.

"toller" wrote in message
...
I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid
and stranded #12.
I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure.
I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid?
If not, then what? Thanks.

I would use wire nuts that have a brass insert with a set screw that you
tighten onto the wires, after trimming the excess hanging out the insert you
screw on a plastic cap. When finished it looks just like a twist-on wire
nut. A "Marr #2 insulated wire connector" is listed as good for two solid or
stranded #10 wires down to five #14s.

"toller" wrote in message
...
I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid
and stranded #12.
I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure.
I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid?
If not, then what? Thanks.

I would use wire nuts that have a brass insert with a set screw that you
tighten onto the wires, after trimming the excess hanging out the insert
you
screw on a plastic cap. When finished it looks just like a twist-on wire
nut. A "Marr #2 insulated wire connector" is listed as good for two solid
or
stranded #10 wires down to five #14s.

I was all set to sold the wires, but these look like they ought to be plenty
secure; if anyone locally has them. Thanks

In article , "toller" wrote:


The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll
likely get about 37 other different opinions...

I thought a connection that relied on solder was a code violation?

Yes, it is -- but if fastened with a wire nut, the connection relies on the
nut, not the solder.

You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the
wire nut.

Tin it with solder? Will it hold together when I twist it?

Sure will. Try it and see.

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:05:05 GMT, Robert Barr
wrote:

The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll
likely get about 37 other different opinions...


I think somepeople's option against this is, if you get a short, or a
groundfault, the solder could melt and break the circuit. I think
people want faults handled by protective equipment, not the wire
itself. Imagine you overload the circuit and your connections come
undone.

You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the
wire nut.

toller wrote:
I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid
and stranded #12.
I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure.
I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid?
If not, then what? Thanks.




later,

tom @ www.ChopURL.com

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:46:19 GMT, "toller" wrote:



The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll
likely get about 37 other different opinions...

I thought a connection that relied on solder was a code violation?

Yeah. I think it's in the wiring methods article. Don't remember the
exact section off the top of my head.




You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the
wire nut.

Tin it with solder? Will it hold together when I twist it?



later,

tom @ www.FindMeShelter.com

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:44:32 GMT, "toller" wrote:


"Bob K 207" wrote in message
...
Subject: How to connect #12 stranded to #10 solid
From: "John Grabowski"
Date: 12/24/2004 7:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Use pliers to twist and tighten the stranded wire onto the solid and then
twist your wire connectors onto the splice.



"toller" wrote in message
...
I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10
solid
and stranded #12.
I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure.
I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid?
If not, then what? Thanks.



why are are we connecting #10 & #12 conductors?

which wire is upstream? & what is capacity of the circuit breaker?

I am hardwiring a transfer switch. The cable from the generator is solid
10, and the internal wiring on the switch is standed 12.



This would concern me, maybe I have the wrong sized switch.

Might want to do further research into the setup.

later,

tom @ www.ChopURL.com

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:44:32 GMT, "toller" wrote:


"Bob K 207" wrote in message
...
Subject: How to connect #12 stranded to #10 solid
From: "John Grabowski"
Date: 12/24/2004 7:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Use pliers to twist and tighten the stranded wire onto the solid and
then
twist your wire connectors onto the splice.



"toller" wrote in message
...
I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10
solid
and stranded #12.
I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure.
I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on
solid?
If not, then what? Thanks.



why are are we connecting #10 & #12 conductors?

which wire is upstream? & what is capacity of the circuit breaker?

I am hardwiring a transfer switch. The cable from the generator is solid
10, and the internal wiring on the switch is standed 12.



This would concern me, maybe I have the wrong sized switch.

Might want to do further research into the setup.

The switch is rated to 21a (240v), so #12 internal is fine, but the line
going to it (about 80') had to be #10/3.

Actually I only plan on using it for 14a (120v) so #12, or even #14, would
have been fine; but it seemed prudent to set it up for a larger generator
since the work is about the same.

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:46:19 GMT, "toller" wrote:



The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll
likely get about 37 other different opinions...

I thought a connection that relied on solder was a code violation?

Yeah. I think it's in the wiring methods article. Don't remember the
exact section off the top of my head.

i dont believe tinning a wire before nutting it is 'relying on solder', but
i could be wrong..

randy

Eric Tonks writes:

I would use wire nuts that have a brass insert with a set screw that
you tighten onto the wires, after trimming the excess hanging out the
insert you screw on a plastic cap.

Ditto this, I have used these for decades. Best thing for stranded, or
mismatched sizes, or large bunches. Ideal brand used to make them.

xrongor wrote:
....
i dont believe tinning a wire before nutting it is 'relying on solder', but
i could be wrong..

No, there is no solder joint at all in that case...

wrote:
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:46:19 GMT, "toller" wrote:



The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll
likely get about 37 other different opinions...

I thought a connection that relied on solder was a code violation?


Yeah. I think it's in the wiring methods article. Don't remember the
exact section off the top of my head.




You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the
wire nut.

Tin it with solder? Will it hold together when I twist it?




later,

tom @ www.FindMeShelter.com

The only places the US NEC forbids the use of solder is in connecting
grounding or bonding conductors to electrodes and connecting Equipment
Grounding Conductors to boxes. In both cases the connection may not be
"depending on solder."

250.70 Methods of Grounding and Bonding Conductor Connection to Electrodes.

250.148 Continuity and Attachment of Equipment Grounding Conductors to
Boxes.

In other applications the US NEC specifically permits soldering vis.

[110.14 Electrical Connections.
Because of different characteristics of dissimilar metals, devices such
as pressure terminal or pressure splicing connectors and soldering lugs
shall be identified for the material of the conductor and shall be
properly installed and used. Conductors of dissimilar metals shall not
be intermixed in a terminal or splicing connector where physical contact
occurs between dissimilar conductors (such as copper and aluminum,
copper and copper-clad aluminum, or aluminum and copper-clad aluminum),
unless the device is identified for the purpose and conditions of use.
Materials such as solder, fluxes, inhibitors, and compounds, where
employed, shall be suitable for the use and shall be of a type that will
not adversely affect the conductors, installation, or equipment.

(B) Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices
identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering with a
fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be spliced or
joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder
and then be soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends of
conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the
conductors or with an insulating device identified for the purpose.]
copyright 2002 the National Fire Protection Association.

--
Tom H

The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder.

I tried soldering on some scraps. I dipped the wires into flux and then
tried to solder them. The solder adhered to the stranded wire as well as
could be, but it skated right off the solid.

I have never soldered anything but stranded before, but don't understand why
the solid is different.

Any advice here?

I have never soldered anything but stranded before, but don't understand why
the solid is different.

Any advice here?



More heat. If you have the wire hot enough, without oxidizing the copper, the
solder will stick (actually form an alloy).
Soldering is a trick that was well known to old electricians but was lost whwn
they started using wirenuts. BTW an electrician's soldering iron is ~200w,
about an inch in diameter with a 5/8" or larger tip. The idea is that the tip
brings enough heat to the job that it instantly brings the ends of 2 or 3 #12s
to soldering temperature without slowly heating the length of the wire and
melting the insulation. If it takes more than a second or two, you need a
bigger iron.

In article .net, HorneTD wrote:

[snip]

(B) Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices
identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering with a
fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be spliced or
joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder
and then be soldered.

See that ? "Mechanically and electrically secure without solder." That means
that the connection may not depend on the solder.

In article , "toller" wrote:

The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder.

I tried soldering on some scraps. I dipped the wires into flux and then
tried to solder them. The solder adhered to the stranded wire as well as
could be, but it skated right off the solid.

I have never soldered anything but stranded before, but don't understand why
the solid is different.

Any advice here?

You probably need a hotter soldering iron. I bet you've got a fairly
low-powered unit. Try something around 100W or bigger.

Also, don't use plumbing solder, which is lead-free. Get some 50/50 or 60/40
leaded solder and try that.

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 22:03:14 -0700, "xrongor"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:46:19 GMT, "toller" wrote:



The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll
likely get about 37 other different opinions...

I thought a connection that relied on solder was a code violation?

Yeah. I think it's in the wiring methods article. Don't remember the
exact section off the top of my head.

i dont believe tinning a wire before nutting it is 'relying on solder', but
i could be wrong..


I think you're right, the tinning process isn't making the connection,
just organizing the wires. But then you might be in violation of 2002
NEC 110.3b ( label and listings) since wire nuts say nothing about
tinned wires, just usually copper, copper-clad AL, and AL depending on
the manufacturer.

Still an interesting question.


randy



later,

tom @ www.ChopURL.com

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:46:19 GMT, HorneTD
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:46:19 GMT, "toller" wrote:



The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll
likely get about 37 other different opinions...

I thought a connection that relied on solder was a code violation?


Yeah. I think it's in the wiring methods article. Don't remember the
exact section off the top of my head.




You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the
wire nut.

Tin it with solder? Will it hold together when I twist it?




later,

tom @ www.FindMeShelter.com

The only places the US NEC forbids the use of solder is in connecting
grounding or bonding conductors to electrodes and connecting Equipment
Grounding Conductors to boxes. In both cases the connection may not be
"depending on solder."

250.70 Methods of Grounding and Bonding Conductor Connection to Electrodes.

250.148 Continuity and Attachment of Equipment Grounding Conductors to
Boxes.

In other applications the US NEC specifically permits soldering vis.

[110.14 Electrical Connections.
Because of different characteristics of dissimilar metals, devices such
as pressure terminal or pressure splicing connectors and soldering lugs
shall be identified for the material of the conductor and shall be
properly installed and used. Conductors of dissimilar metals shall not
be intermixed in a terminal or splicing connector where physical contact
occurs between dissimilar conductors (such as copper and aluminum,
copper and copper-clad aluminum, or aluminum and copper-clad aluminum),
unless the device is identified for the purpose and conditions of use.
Materials such as solder, fluxes, inhibitors, and compounds, where
employed, shall be suitable for the use and shall be of a type that will
not adversely affect the conductors, installation, or equipment.

(B) Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices
identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering with a
fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be spliced or
joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder

I think this points out that you must NOT rely on the solder. You
must first do the job first then add the solder second.

Which leads me to the question, after you mechanically and
electrically secured your connection, why would you add solder? Where
is this a good practice?

Thank you,

and then be soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends of
conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the
conductors or with an insulating device identified for the purpose.]
copyright 2002 the National Fire Protection Association.


Tom @ www.URLBee.com

According to Doug Miller :

Also, don't use plumbing solder, which is lead-free. Get some 50/50 or 60/40
leaded solder and try that.

If you use plumbing flux, _clean_ the result very thoroughly. Acid flux eats
copper. Much more critical with electronics (small wires etc) and usually not
a factor with plumbing (big copper ;-), it still can matter with house wiring.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

I called every electrical supply house in town. They will order me a box of
100, but don't carry it. Some will also order me the Ideal equivalent, but
don't stock them either.
You wouldn't have 4 you could toss in an envelop would you?
I would be most grateful. The alternative seems to be soldering them, and I
am not having any better luck with that; my soldering iron is not big
enough.

Home Depot carries the split bolts, but insulating them would be a problem.



"Eric Tonks" etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM wrote in message
...
I would use wire nuts that have a brass insert with a set screw that you
tighten onto the wires, after trimming the excess hanging out the insert
you
screw on a plastic cap. When finished it looks just like a twist-on wire
nut. A "Marr #2 insulated wire connector" is listed as good for two solid
or
stranded #10 wires down to five #14s.

"toller" wrote in message
...
I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10
solid
and stranded #12.
I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure.
I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid?
If not, then what? Thanks.

Just occured to me that if you are kind enough to oblige me, you won't get
far with the fake email address.
I am at pam. Remove the spam of course. Thanks.

I am still not sure why you are having so much trouble with a wirenut. If you
have a red one. wrap the stranded around the solid with a bit of the stranded
beyond the solid and twist on the nut I don't know how you would pull them
apart without breaking the wire.

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:52:42 GMT, "toller" wrote:

I called every electrical supply house in town. They will order me a box of
100, but don't carry it. Some will also order me the Ideal equivalent, but
don't stock them either.
You wouldn't have 4 you could toss in an envelop would you?
I would be most grateful. The alternative seems to be soldering them, and I
am not having any better luck with that; my soldering iron is not big
enough.

Home Depot carries the split bolts, but insulating them would be a problem.


Heat shrink tubing not fit?



"Eric Tonks" etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM wrote in message
...
I would use wire nuts that have a brass insert with a set screw that you
tighten onto the wires, after trimming the excess hanging out the insert
you
screw on a plastic cap. When finished it looks just like a twist-on wire
nut. A "Marr #2 insulated wire connector" is listed as good for two solid
or
stranded #10 wires down to five #14s.

"toller" wrote in message
...
I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10
solid
and stranded #12.
I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure.
I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid?
If not, then what? Thanks.







later,

tom @ www.URLBee.com

wrote in message
...

Which leads me to the question, after you mechanically and
electrically secured your connection, why would you add solder? Where
is this a good practice?


First off you can attach a stranded wire to a solid wire inside a wire nut
just fine. If the wire nut is sized for 2 or 3 connectors I will usually
wrap the stranded around the solid from top to bottom and then kind of flip
the end over the top before twisting on the wire nut.

To test take a scrap of each assemble and see how hard you have to pull to
obtain a failure. If it is easy then you are using too large of a wire nut
or you did some thing wrong.

If you need to pull real hard then the wire nut is doing its job.


I interpret the phrase mechanically and electrically secured to mean you
twist the wires together rather than laying them side by side to solder
them. It might have a different meaning if you were dealing with some
heavy cable or something.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

I interpret the phrase mechanically and electrically secured to mean you
twist the wires together rather than laying them side by side to solder
them.

Give that man a cigar, we have a winner. That is what they mean. If you wrap a
stranded around a solid a couple times and solder it you will break the wire
before the joint fails.

"Greg" wrote in message
...

I interpret the phrase mechanically and electrically secured to mean you
twist the wires together rather than laying them side by side to solder
them.

Give that man a cigar, we have a winner. That is what they mean. If you
wrap a
stranded around a solid a couple times and solder it you will break the
wire
before the joint fails.

The same is true for a properly installed wire nut without the solder also.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.