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How to connect #12 stranded to #10 solid
I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid
and stranded #12. I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure. I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid? If not, then what? Thanks. |
The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll
likely get about 37 other different opinions... You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the wire nut. toller wrote: I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid and stranded #12. I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure. I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid? If not, then what? Thanks. |
Use pliers to twist and tighten the stranded wire onto the solid and then
twist your wire connectors onto the splice. "toller" wrote in message ... I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid and stranded #12. I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure. I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid? If not, then what? Thanks. |
Subject: How to connect #12 stranded to #10 solid
From: "John Grabowski" Date: 12/24/2004 7:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time Message-id: Use pliers to twist and tighten the stranded wire onto the solid and then twist your wire connectors onto the splice. "toller" wrote in message ... I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid and stranded #12. I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure. I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid? If not, then what? Thanks. why are are we connecting #10 & #12 conductors? which wire is upstream? & what is capacity of the circuit breaker? cheers Bob |
"Bob K 207" wrote in message ... Subject: How to connect #12 stranded to #10 solid From: "John Grabowski" Date: 12/24/2004 7:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time Message-id: Use pliers to twist and tighten the stranded wire onto the solid and then twist your wire connectors onto the splice. "toller" wrote in message ... I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid and stranded #12. I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure. I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid? If not, then what? Thanks. why are are we connecting #10 & #12 conductors? which wire is upstream? & what is capacity of the circuit breaker? I am hardwiring a transfer switch. The cable from the generator is solid 10, and the internal wiring on the switch is standed 12. |
toller wrote:
I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid and stranded #12. I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure. I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid? If not, then what? Thanks. These will clamp those wires together tighter than a bull's backside in fly season: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/pro...740735&ccitem= But you'll have to wrap the hell out of them with tape to make sure the electrons can't get loose. If it was me, I'd solder 'em. Jeff -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public schools" |
The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll likely get about 37 other different opinions... I thought a connection that relied on solder was a code violation? You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the wire nut. Tin it with solder? Will it hold together when I twist it? |
i agree. it may be overkill, but its cheap, easy, and works every time.
randy "Robert Barr" wrote in message m... The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll likely get about 37 other different opinions... You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the wire nut. toller wrote: I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid and stranded #12. I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure. I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid? If not, then what? Thanks. |
toller wrote:
I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid and stranded #12. I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure. I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid? If not, then what? Thanks. Maybe you are using the wrong size of wire nut. |
"toller" wrote in message ... The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll likely get about 37 other different opinions... I thought a connection that relied on solder was a code violation? You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the wire nut. Tin it with solder? Will it hold together when I twist it? yup. if you tin it, not encase it.... randy |
regular old red scotchlock/ideal wirenut/wingnut
twist the stranded line it up with the solid, clip the ends off evenly, then poke em into and then twist the wirenut. "toller" wrote in message ... I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid and stranded #12. I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure. I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid? If not, then what? Thanks. |
I would use wire nuts that have a brass insert with a set screw that you
tighten onto the wires, after trimming the excess hanging out the insert you screw on a plastic cap. When finished it looks just like a twist-on wire nut. A "Marr #2 insulated wire connector" is listed as good for two solid or stranded #10 wires down to five #14s. "toller" wrote in message ... I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid and stranded #12. I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure. I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid? If not, then what? Thanks. |
I would use wire nuts that have a brass insert with a set screw that you tighten onto the wires, after trimming the excess hanging out the insert you screw on a plastic cap. When finished it looks just like a twist-on wire nut. A "Marr #2 insulated wire connector" is listed as good for two solid or stranded #10 wires down to five #14s. I was all set to sold the wires, but these look like they ought to be plenty secure; if anyone locally has them. Thanks |
In article , "toller" wrote:
The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll likely get about 37 other different opinions... I thought a connection that relied on solder was a code violation? Yes, it is -- but if fastened with a wire nut, the connection relies on the nut, not the solder. You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the wire nut. Tin it with solder? Will it hold together when I twist it? Sure will. Try it and see. |
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:05:05 GMT, Robert Barr
wrote: The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll likely get about 37 other different opinions... I think somepeople's option against this is, if you get a short, or a groundfault, the solder could melt and break the circuit. I think people want faults handled by protective equipment, not the wire itself. Imagine you overload the circuit and your connections come undone. :( You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the wire nut. toller wrote: I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid and stranded #12. I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure. I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid? If not, then what? Thanks. later, tom @ www.ChopURL.com |
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:46:19 GMT, "toller" wrote:
The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll likely get about 37 other different opinions... I thought a connection that relied on solder was a code violation? Yeah. I think it's in the wiring methods article. Don't remember the exact section off the top of my head. You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the wire nut. Tin it with solder? Will it hold together when I twist it? later, tom @ www.FindMeShelter.com |
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:44:32 GMT, "toller" wrote:
"Bob K 207" wrote in message ... Subject: How to connect #12 stranded to #10 solid From: "John Grabowski" Date: 12/24/2004 7:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time Message-id: Use pliers to twist and tighten the stranded wire onto the solid and then twist your wire connectors onto the splice. "toller" wrote in message ... I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid and stranded #12. I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure. I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid? If not, then what? Thanks. why are are we connecting #10 & #12 conductors? which wire is upstream? & what is capacity of the circuit breaker? I am hardwiring a transfer switch. The cable from the generator is solid 10, and the internal wiring on the switch is standed 12. This would concern me, maybe I have the wrong sized switch. Might want to do further research into the setup. later, tom @ www.ChopURL.com |
wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:44:32 GMT, "toller" wrote: "Bob K 207" wrote in message ... Subject: How to connect #12 stranded to #10 solid From: "John Grabowski" Date: 12/24/2004 7:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time Message-id: Use pliers to twist and tighten the stranded wire onto the solid and then twist your wire connectors onto the splice. "toller" wrote in message ... I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid and stranded #12. I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure. I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid? If not, then what? Thanks. why are are we connecting #10 & #12 conductors? which wire is upstream? & what is capacity of the circuit breaker? I am hardwiring a transfer switch. The cable from the generator is solid 10, and the internal wiring on the switch is standed 12. This would concern me, maybe I have the wrong sized switch. Might want to do further research into the setup. The switch is rated to 21a (240v), so #12 internal is fine, but the line going to it (about 80') had to be #10/3. Actually I only plan on using it for 14a (120v) so #12, or even #14, would have been fine; but it seemed prudent to set it up for a larger generator since the work is about the same. |
wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:46:19 GMT, "toller" wrote: The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll likely get about 37 other different opinions... I thought a connection that relied on solder was a code violation? Yeah. I think it's in the wiring methods article. Don't remember the exact section off the top of my head. i dont believe tinning a wire before nutting it is 'relying on solder', but i could be wrong.. randy |
Eric Tonks writes:
I would use wire nuts that have a brass insert with a set screw that you tighten onto the wires, after trimming the excess hanging out the insert you screw on a plastic cap. Ditto this, I have used these for decades. Best thing for stranded, or mismatched sizes, or large bunches. Ideal brand used to make them. |
xrongor wrote:
.... i dont believe tinning a wire before nutting it is 'relying on solder', but i could be wrong.. No, there is no solder joint at all in that case... |
The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. I tried soldering on some scraps. I dipped the wires into flux and then tried to solder them. The solder adhered to the stranded wire as well as could be, but it skated right off the solid. I have never soldered anything but stranded before, but don't understand why the solid is different. Any advice here? |
I have never soldered anything but stranded before, but don't understand why
the solid is different. Any advice here? More heat. If you have the wire hot enough, without oxidizing the copper, the solder will stick (actually form an alloy). Soldering is a trick that was well known to old electricians but was lost whwn they started using wirenuts. BTW an electrician's soldering iron is ~200w, about an inch in diameter with a 5/8" or larger tip. The idea is that the tip brings enough heat to the job that it instantly brings the ends of 2 or 3 #12s to soldering temperature without slowly heating the length of the wire and melting the insulation. If it takes more than a second or two, you need a bigger iron. |
In article .net, HorneTD wrote:
[snip] (B) Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then be soldered. See that ? "Mechanically and electrically secure without solder." That means that the connection may not depend on the solder. |
In article , "toller" wrote:
The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. I tried soldering on some scraps. I dipped the wires into flux and then tried to solder them. The solder adhered to the stranded wire as well as could be, but it skated right off the solid. I have never soldered anything but stranded before, but don't understand why the solid is different. Any advice here? You probably need a hotter soldering iron. I bet you've got a fairly low-powered unit. Try something around 100W or bigger. Also, don't use plumbing solder, which is lead-free. Get some 50/50 or 60/40 leaded solder and try that. |
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 22:03:14 -0700, "xrongor"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:46:19 GMT, "toller" wrote: The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll likely get about 37 other different opinions... I thought a connection that relied on solder was a code violation? Yeah. I think it's in the wiring methods article. Don't remember the exact section off the top of my head. i dont believe tinning a wire before nutting it is 'relying on solder', but i could be wrong.. I think you're right, the tinning process isn't making the connection, just organizing the wires. But then you might be in violation of 2002 NEC 110.3b ( label and listings) since wire nuts say nothing about tinned wires, just usually copper, copper-clad AL, and AL depending on the manufacturer. Still an interesting question. randy later, tom @ www.ChopURL.com |
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:46:19 GMT, HorneTD
wrote: wrote: On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 03:46:19 GMT, "toller" wrote: The only stranded - solid connection that I trust is solder. You'll likely get about 37 other different opinions... I thought a connection that relied on solder was a code violation? Yeah. I think it's in the wiring methods article. Don't remember the exact section off the top of my head. You can 'tin' the stranded end so it acts more like solid wire under the wire nut. Tin it with solder? Will it hold together when I twist it? later, tom @ www.FindMeShelter.com The only places the US NEC forbids the use of solder is in connecting grounding or bonding conductors to electrodes and connecting Equipment Grounding Conductors to boxes. In both cases the connection may not be "depending on solder." 250.70 Methods of Grounding and Bonding Conductor Connection to Electrodes. 250.148 Continuity and Attachment of Equipment Grounding Conductors to Boxes. In other applications the US NEC specifically permits soldering vis. [110.14 Electrical Connections. Because of different characteristics of dissimilar metals, devices such as pressure terminal or pressure splicing connectors and soldering lugs shall be identified for the material of the conductor and shall be properly installed and used. Conductors of dissimilar metals shall not be intermixed in a terminal or splicing connector where physical contact occurs between dissimilar conductors (such as copper and aluminum, copper and copper-clad aluminum, or aluminum and copper-clad aluminum), unless the device is identified for the purpose and conditions of use. Materials such as solder, fluxes, inhibitors, and compounds, where employed, shall be suitable for the use and shall be of a type that will not adversely affect the conductors, installation, or equipment. (B) Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder I think this points out that you must NOT rely on the solder. You must first do the job first then add the solder second. Which leads me to the question, after you mechanically and electrically secured your connection, why would you add solder? Where is this a good practice? Thank you, and then be soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends of conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the conductors or with an insulating device identified for the purpose.] copyright 2002 the National Fire Protection Association. Tom @ www.URLBee.com |
According to Doug Miller :
Also, don't use plumbing solder, which is lead-free. Get some 50/50 or 60/40 leaded solder and try that. If you use plumbing flux, _clean_ the result very thoroughly. Acid flux eats copper. Much more critical with electronics (small wires etc) and usually not a factor with plumbing (big copper ;-), it still can matter with house wiring. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
I called every electrical supply house in town. They will order me a box of
100, but don't carry it. Some will also order me the Ideal equivalent, but don't stock them either. You wouldn't have 4 you could toss in an envelop would you? I would be most grateful. The alternative seems to be soldering them, and I am not having any better luck with that; my soldering iron is not big enough. Home Depot carries the split bolts, but insulating them would be a problem. "Eric Tonks" etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM wrote in message ... I would use wire nuts that have a brass insert with a set screw that you tighten onto the wires, after trimming the excess hanging out the insert you screw on a plastic cap. When finished it looks just like a twist-on wire nut. A "Marr #2 insulated wire connector" is listed as good for two solid or stranded #10 wires down to five #14s. "toller" wrote in message ... I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid and stranded #12. I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure. I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid? If not, then what? Thanks. |
Just occured to me that if you are kind enough to oblige me, you won't get
far with the fake email address. I am at pam. Remove the spam of course. Thanks. |
I am still not sure why you are having so much trouble with a wirenut. If you
have a red one. wrap the stranded around the solid with a bit of the stranded beyond the solid and twist on the nut I don't know how you would pull them apart without breaking the wire. |
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:52:42 GMT, "toller" wrote:
I called every electrical supply house in town. They will order me a box of 100, but don't carry it. Some will also order me the Ideal equivalent, but don't stock them either. You wouldn't have 4 you could toss in an envelop would you? I would be most grateful. The alternative seems to be soldering them, and I am not having any better luck with that; my soldering iron is not big enough. Home Depot carries the split bolts, but insulating them would be a problem. Heat shrink tubing not fit? "Eric Tonks" etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM wrote in message ... I would use wire nuts that have a brass insert with a set screw that you tighten onto the wires, after trimming the excess hanging out the insert you screw on a plastic cap. When finished it looks just like a twist-on wire nut. A "Marr #2 insulated wire connector" is listed as good for two solid or stranded #10 wires down to five #14s. "toller" wrote in message ... I have to make some connections inside an electrical box between #10 solid and stranded #12. I tried wirenuts, but it doesn't seem particularly secure. I have only used crimp connectors on standed; can they be used on solid? If not, then what? Thanks. later, tom @ www.URLBee.com |
wrote in message ... Which leads me to the question, after you mechanically and electrically secured your connection, why would you add solder? Where is this a good practice? First off you can attach a stranded wire to a solid wire inside a wire nut just fine. If the wire nut is sized for 2 or 3 connectors I will usually wrap the stranded around the solid from top to bottom and then kind of flip the end over the top before twisting on the wire nut. To test take a scrap of each assemble and see how hard you have to pull to obtain a failure. If it is easy then you are using too large of a wire nut or you did some thing wrong. If you need to pull real hard then the wire nut is doing its job. I interpret the phrase mechanically and electrically secured to mean you twist the wires together rather than laying them side by side to solder them. It might have a different meaning if you were dealing with some heavy cable or something. -- Roger Shoaf About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then they come up with this striped stuff. |
I interpret the phrase mechanically and electrically secured to mean you twist the wires together rather than laying them side by side to solder them. Give that man a cigar, we have a winner. That is what they mean. If you wrap a stranded around a solid a couple times and solder it you will break the wire before the joint fails. |
"Greg" wrote in message ... I interpret the phrase mechanically and electrically secured to mean you twist the wires together rather than laying them side by side to solder them. Give that man a cigar, we have a winner. That is what they mean. If you wrap a stranded around a solid a couple times and solder it you will break the wire before the joint fails. The same is true for a properly installed wire nut without the solder also. -- Roger Shoaf About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then they come up with this striped stuff. |
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