(Doug Miller) writes:
In article , Minnie Bannister wrote:

I was thinking the other way round: that charging $90/hr for labor
should mean that they don't have to charge retail for the parts -- just
as Jeff (to whom I was reponding) said.

It doesn't matter how you look at it, they're going to make their profit one
way or another. Why argue about what label they choose to put on it?

Because pricing transparency is more fair and market efficient. People
and contractors can make better (and fairer) decisions when the
pricing is not distorted and each party can make an informed decision
based on true costs and true benefits. Same reason that laws call for
truth in labelling.

DJ writes:
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:36:15 GMT, ender (Jeffrey
J. Kosowsky) wrote:

"PrecisionMachinisT" writes:
And if a contractor had to always walk around for 40 minutes with no
snip

According to your logic, sounds like the contractor should be willing
to pay "extra" for this service relative to the DIY who is willing to
wait.
snip

Without getting too personal, might I ask what you do for a living
Jeffery?

Not that I have any objection to sharing the info, but what difference
would that make? If you have a valid reason for knowing, then I would
be happy to share that info with you.

In article , ender (Jeffrey J. Kosowsky) wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:
In article , Minnie Bannister
wrote:

I was thinking the other way round: that charging $90/hr for labor
should mean that they don't have to charge retail for the parts -- just
as Jeff (to whom I was reponding) said.

It doesn't matter how you look at it, they're going to make their profit one
way or another. Why argue about what label they choose to put on it?

Because pricing transparency is more fair and market efficient. People
and contractors can make better (and fairer) decisions when the
pricing is not distorted and each party can make an informed decision
based on true costs and true benefits. Same reason that laws call for
truth in labelling.

The only thing that really matters is the total cost of the job. Assuming that
the quality of materials and workmanship are equal in both cases, what
difference does it make if one guy charges $100 for materials and $400 for
labor, and another guy charges $200 for materials and $300 for labor? The
final cost is the same either way. If you maintain that one bid is "better"
than the other because the cost breakdown goes one way instead of another,
this would seem to me to indicate a need for therapy.

In article , ender (Jeffrey J. Kosowsky) wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" writes:
Let me translate that. "what kind of lies can I tell to save a few dollars
by falsely representing myself"??

I prefer to think of it as:
What can I do to prevent from being ripped off by suppliers and
contractors who think I am just a "rich", naive yuppie who is ripe for
being ripped off

Stop looking and acting like a rich naive yuppie? :-)

writes:
J. Kosowsky) wrote:


Finally, from a "moral" viewpoint, I have always thought it to be
borderline sleazy that contractors make an additional *hidden* margin
by marking up the price of materials. I am happy to pay a fair and
competitive hourly labor rate and to pay a delivery charge on
materials,

I have doubts about this. From your words and tone, I don't think
you are happy to pay full value for anything ...

Not sure how you judge this. I am willing to pay market price adjusted
up or down for the quality of the work and any other side benefits or
deficiencies (e.g., faster job, better reputation, warrantee)


Still, I can't understand why you're so concerned about how much
profit I make. Your concern should be the quality of the work, the
quality of the materials and *the cost to you*.

I could care less how much profit you make. I care only that when I
buy something as a DIY that I don't pay a marked up price that bears
no relationship to the actual cost and margin of supplying the product
(as evidenced by someone else getting the same part for significantly less)

but I fail to see why a contractor should make an
additional hidden profit by marking up materials due to the old "cozy"
relationship between suppliers and contractors.

Here's why: I renovate your bathroom. A month later, there's a
problem with the bathtub ... a hairline crack. You call me to say
what do we do?

I supplied the tub and the plumber ... and marked both up by my
standard 25%. Which means the tub cost you 5% more than you could
buy it for at retail ... and plumber cost you about $15 an hour LESS
than you could hire one at from the phone book.
Since I was the supplier, I pay to have the tile surround removed,
the tub removed and replaced, and new tile work for the surround.

OR --- You supplied the tub which you bought to save my markup.
It's your problem, not mine.

You should follow the thread more closely because you have
misinterpreted my point thoroughly.
First, I have said repeatedly that I am talking about buying parts for
my own DIY repair so your situation of warrantying work is not
relevant.

Second, even if I would hire someone else to do the work, I want to
have materials represent materials cost and labor represent labor
cost. If labor profit is built into the cost of materials then why
bother even giving me separate parts and labor costs? Also, if there
is a problem after the job then I would have assumed that the cost of
replacing the materials would be borne by the supplier (and calculated
into his margins) while the cost of redoing the labor would be built
into the price you charge for labor.


I now use the Internet
all the time to challenge contractors on marked-up materials pricing
thereby avoiding being gouged and getting a better sense of my labor
vs. materials cost.

I don't know what your experience with this approach has been ... and
I suspect that no matter what it has been, you would claim it's been
great.

I can tell you what your experience would be he no serious pro
would even look at your project.

That has not been my experience.

In fact, this is no different from the uproar over
hospitals marking up the price of Tylenol (beyond the cost of goods
and administration) or government contractors marking up the cost of
toilet seats.

Actually, both cases have led to corrections in pricing.

If you can't see the difference, then you've got a real problem.
Maybe you can find a shrink who gives discounts.

Ken

In article , ender (Jeffrey J. Kosowsky) wrote:

Second, even if I would hire someone else to do the work, I want to
have materials represent materials cost and labor represent labor
cost.

Whatthehell difference does it make? You write the guy *one* check for the
*entire* job. Why do you care how he breaks the costs down?

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
"PrecisionMachinisT" writes:
"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
According to your logic, sounds like the contractor should be willing
to pay "extra" for this service relative to the DIY who is willing to
wait.


Nope, it doesnt.

Because wholesaler dont got to have an extra six employees ****ing
around
answering stupid questions.

And if you screw around and make me wait in line, Im gonna go someplace
else--I know what I want, you have it and if you want my money then you
give
it to me now and quit wasting my time.

When I buy things that arent shipped in, I phone in advance and go to
the
will-call counter.......

Very very rare will I even go to Wal-Mart, Home Depot, precisely because
when I do, I find their products are often as not substandard and
overpriced.

End of Story.

First, you are clearly humor impaired, since you missed the sarcasm
and humor in my comment.

Second, as I have said all along, the price to consumers should have
nothing to do with who has a license and who doesn't. Rather it should
depend on a combination of factors such as volume efficiencies and the
cost of serving different customer segments. Then the supplier needs
to decide what combination of service levels he wishes to offer and
which combination of segments he wishes to target so as to maximize
his profit. Some may choose to sell mostly to consumers (Home Depot),
others may choose to target mostly contractors, others still may
choose to target both.

If a supplier doesn't want my business then he may charge me more or
may not provide the service I need -- on the other hand plenty of
others may find me profitable to serve at a price not much higher than
the contractor discount. For sophisticated suppliers, the fact that a
contractor may feel jealous is unlikely to impact this decsion.

And you need to realize Im not an ordinary consumer.

As a machine shop owner, Im not a contractor--I am an industrial
user--close but not quite the same.

Most the same supplies a consumer needs are available to me wholesale, but I
afford to take the time to dink and drive around playing lookie loo on
nickle dime ****--if you wont take the time to speak with me on the phone,
then you dont get my money..........

I need bearings sometimes, for example--these are quite expensive........a
replacement spindle assembly can cost 5 grand and up........but I can buy
the bearings and do it myself........~ $500......

They bearings arent available at Fred Meyers, nor any auto parts store, and
I know this already.....

There maybe a set on the east coast and some in stock in California.

I know what bearings they are, cross refrence them to NSK or FAG or NHBB or
whatevr, I dont give a flying rats ass--and damned straight I will make a
few calls, and guaranteed the first guy promises to get em to my door
tomorrow afternoon gets the sale........and I never even hadda leave the
office.

Because every day that machine isnt in production, or even any hours I have
to leave from the office, it costs me BIG money.

So if you wanna sell me bearings--I call, and you better answer and be able
to quickly tell me if you got the ones I need in stock, or when you can get
em to me, otherwise you are wasting both of our time , and you got 4 minutes
to decide.

====

BTW:

Your wording--"tricks" and "contractor" already done gave you away from the
get go as a troll......


......LOL......

--

SVL

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
DJ writes:
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:36:15 GMT, ender (Jeffrey
J. Kosowsky) wrote:

"PrecisionMachinisT" writes:
And if a contractor had to always walk around for 40 minutes with no
snip

According to your logic, sounds like the contractor should be willing
to pay "extra" for this service relative to the DIY who is willing to
wait.
snip

Without getting too personal, might I ask what you do for a living
Jeffery?

Not that I have any objection to sharing the info, but what difference
would that make? If you have a valid reason for knowing, then I would
be happy to share that info with you.


Your NOT a contractor then, should we ASSume ???

--

SVL

(Doug Miller) writes:
In article , ender (Jeffrey J. Kosowsky) wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:
In article , Minnie Bannister
wrote:

I was thinking the other way round: that charging $90/hr for labor
should mean that they don't have to charge retail for the parts -- just
as Jeff (to whom I was reponding) said.

It doesn't matter how you look at it, they're going to make their profit one
way or another. Why argue about what label they choose to put on it?

Because pricing transparency is more fair and market efficient. People
and contractors can make better (and fairer) decisions when the
pricing is not distorted and each party can make an informed decision
based on true costs and true benefits. Same reason that laws call for
truth in labelling.

The only thing that really matters is the total cost of the job. Assuming that
the quality of materials and workmanship are equal in both cases, what
difference does it make if one guy charges $100 for materials and $400 for
labor, and another guy charges $200 for materials and $300 for labor? The
final cost is the same either way. If you maintain that one bid is "better"
than the other because the cost breakdown goes one way instead of another,
this would seem to me to indicate a need for therapy.

I don't entirely disagree -- total cost is at the end of the day most
important. But if you are not going to give me true material and labor
costs, then why bother even splitting them out.
Also, knowing what material and labor costs should be (relative to
market rates) helps one identify a total bid that is either
unrealistically low or unrealistically high.

(Doug Miller) writes:

In article , ender (Jeffrey J. Kosowsky) wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" writes:
Let me translate that. "what kind of lies can I tell to save a few dollars
by falsely representing myself"??

I prefer to think of it as:
What can I do to prevent from being ripped off by suppliers and
contractors who think I am just a "rich", naive yuppie who is ripe for
being ripped off

Stop looking and acting like a rich naive yuppie? :-)

Touche but unfortunately I don't really do a good impression of being
one

"PrecisionMachinisT" writes:
"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
DJ writes:
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:36:15 GMT, ender (Jeffrey
J. Kosowsky) wrote:

"PrecisionMachinisT" writes:
And if a contractor had to always walk around for 40 minutes with no
snip

According to your logic, sounds like the contractor should be willing
to pay "extra" for this service relative to the DIY who is willing to
wait.
snip

Without getting too personal, might I ask what you do for a living
Jeffery?

Not that I have any objection to sharing the info, but what difference
would that make? If you have a valid reason for knowing, then I would
be happy to share that info with you.


Your NOT a contractor then, should we ASSume ???

Correct. Otherwise, presumably I would just show my magic badge and
get my deserved discount

(Doug Miller) writes:

In article , ender (Jeffrey J. Kosowsky) wrote:

Second, even if I would hire someone else to do the work, I want to
have materials represent materials cost and labor represent labor
cost.

Whatthehell difference does it make? You write the guy *one* check for the
*entire* job. Why do you care how he breaks the costs down?

I don't entirely disagree -- total cost is at the end of the day most
important. But if you are not going to give me true material and labor
costs, then why bother even splitting them out.
Also, knowing what material and labor costs should be (relative to
market rates) helps one identify a total bid that is either
unrealistically low or unrealistically high.

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...



Couple corrections :


And you need to realize Im not an ordinary consumer.

As a machine shop owner, Im not a contractor--I am an industrial
user--close but not quite the same.


Im not jealous at all of contractor or wholesaler discounts, just that I
realize the vast difference in overhead costs in maintaining a wholesale
wharehouse as opposed to a retail outlet, as we serve both sectors with our
product line of modelmaking tools, that being online retail sales as well as
wholesale sales to distributers.

And so I have a fair understanding of the differences when it comes tax
time...........and this is from both vantage points........


Most the same supplies a consumer needs are available to me wholesale, but
I

.......CANT........afford.........is what I meant to say here......


afford to take the time to dink and drive around playing lookie loo on
nickle dime ****--if you wont take the time to speak with me on the phone,
then you dont get my money..........



--

SVL

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
I don't entirely disagree -- total cost is at the end of the day most
important. But if you are not going to give me true material and labor
costs, then why bother even splitting them out.
Also, knowing what material and labor costs should be (relative to
market rates) helps one identify a total bid that is either
unrealistically low or unrealistically high.

My stepfather was a very successful contractor. He quoted the entire job
and never broke down materials and labor. People that knew his work were
willing to pay what he asked. He'd never quibble over price either. When
you are good, there is no need to work cheap; you just walk away and go to
the next job.

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
"PrecisionMachinisT" writes:
"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
DJ writes:
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:36:15 GMT, ender
(Jeffrey
J. Kosowsky) wrote:

"PrecisionMachinisT" writes:
And if a contractor had to always walk around for 40 minutes with
no
snip

According to your logic, sounds like the contractor should be
willing
to pay "extra" for this service relative to the DIY who is willing
to
wait.
snip

Without getting too personal, might I ask what you do for a living
Jeffery?

Not that I have any objection to sharing the info, but what difference
would that make? If you have a valid reason for knowing, then I would
be happy to share that info with you.


Your NOT a contractor then, should we ASSume ???

Correct. Otherwise, presumably I would just show my magic badge and
get my deserved discount

Yup--you gotta "find" the discounts, like me..........clue here is you aint
gonna get em at home cheapo....

--

SVL

"Edwin Pawlowski" writes:
"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
I don't entirely disagree -- total cost is at the end of the day most
important. But if you are not going to give me true material and labor
costs, then why bother even splitting them out.
Also, knowing what material and labor costs should be (relative to
market rates) helps one identify a total bid that is either
unrealistically low or unrealistically high.

My stepfather was a very successful contractor. He quoted the entire job
and never broke down materials and labor. People that knew his work were
willing to pay what he asked. He'd never quibble over price either. When
you are good, there is no need to work cheap; you just walk away and go to
the next job.

I agree that if reputation is excellent and price quote is reasonable
then no need to break quote into part and labor. My complaint is more
against the deceptive practice of breaking up pricing into parts and
labor when the breakout is really into (parts + labor) + labor.

A bid is always a scope of work/bottom line issue. It really doesn't matter
what line items they list.
The only wild card is whether they finish on time and do a good job.
The volume discount on the materials may not cover the bureaucratic costs of a
company big enough to get top tier discount.

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 02:35:09 GMT, ender (Jeffrey
J. Kosowsky) wrote:

DJ writes:
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:36:15 GMT, ender (Jeffrey
J. Kosowsky) wrote:

"PrecisionMachinisT" writes:
And if a contractor had to always walk around for 40 minutes with no
snip

According to your logic, sounds like the contractor should be willing
to pay "extra" for this service relative to the DIY who is willing to
wait.
snip

Without getting too personal, might I ask what you do for a living
Jeffery?

Not that I have any objection to sharing the info, but what difference
would that make? If you have a valid reason for knowing, then I would
be happy to share that info with you.

I was hoping I might be able to draw some analogy between this issue
and whatever it is you do to put food on your table.

As long as I'm asking, have you ever owned a business? Have you ever
worked in the "trades"?

DJ

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
"TURTLE" writes:
Earth to Jeffrey , If you think Home Depot is giving you a big discount on
equipment such as HVAC stuff. I run a HVAC contracting business and sell at a
30% mark up on parts. Home Depot sells at a 50% mark up and if I sold at Home
Depot's prices I would have to go up on prices by 20% higher. Whatever Home
Depot sells for $1,000.00 -- I sell for $850.00 or so.

Earth to Turtle -- clearly you didn't bother to look at Home Depot's
financial statements. While results for individual items may vary,
Home Depot's gross margin according to their latest 10K filing is just
shy of 32% (not 50%), giving them an operating margin of
10%. Considering that their buying power allows them to get better
pricing than other supply houses let only the price that wholesalers
sell to contractors like yourself, I find it hard to believe that your
retail pricing is on average 20% better than Home Depot. Now that
doesn't mean that there aren't individual items where you can beat
Home Depot on price, just that I don't believe that you can buy from a
local supply house, add your own markup and still sell parts on
average 20% cheaper than Home Depot.


This is Turtle.

Huuuuummmmmm , Well Home Depot sells a 3 ton condenser only no labor for
$1,121.00 . I buy it for $411.00 + [ 30% $123.00 ] = $534.00 X 2 = $1,068.00 my
cost of condenser installed with labor included. Now do you see the profit
margin of the HVAC industry is a different story than what you see on a 10K
filing.

TURTLE

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
(Doug Miller) writes:

In article ,
ender (Jeffrey J. Kosowsky) wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" writes:
Let me translate that. "what kind of lies can I tell to save a few
dollars
by falsely representing myself"??

I prefer to think of it as:
What can I do to prevent from being ripped off by suppliers and
contractors who think I am just a "rich", naive yuppie who is ripe for
being ripped off

Stop looking and acting like a rich naive yuppie? :-)

Touche but unfortunately I don't really do a good impression of being
one

You sure sound like one.

(Jeffrey J. Kosowsky)

the deceptive practice of breaking up pricing into parts and
labor when the breakout is really into (parts + labor) + labor.


actually it would be more along the lines of
1)parts and expenses(relative to just getting to the job....including initial
consult, time spent to work up the bid, and time to get materials,tools and
workers to the job)

PLUS
2)labor(which covers employee wages, taxes and hopefully a little bit of money
for the contractor to pay himself while leaving money for the business(I.E.
profit) )


-------------------
Chris Perdue
"I'm ever so thankful for the Internet; it has allowed me to keep a finger in
the pie and to make some small contribution to those younger who will carry the
air-cooled legend forward"
Jim Mais
Feb. 2004

In article , ender (Jeffrey J. Kosowsky) wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:

In article , ender
(Jeffrey J. Kosowsky) wrote:

Second, even if I would hire someone else to do the work, I want to
have materials represent materials cost and labor represent labor
cost.

Whatthehell difference does it make? You write the guy *one* check for the
*entire* job. Why do you care how he breaks the costs down?

I don't entirely disagree -- total cost is at the end of the day most
important. But if you are not going to give me true material and labor
costs, then why bother even splitting them out.

Again -- what difference does it make how the costs are split out? It's the
*total* that you should be concerned about.

Also, knowing what material and labor costs should be (relative to
market rates) helps one identify a total bid that is either
unrealistically low or unrealistically high.

Utter nonsense. Unrealistically high or low bids are readily identified by
comparing totals.

In article , ender (Jeffrey J. Kosowsky) wrote:

I agree that if reputation is excellent and price quote is reasonable
then no need to break quote into part and labor. My complaint is more
against the deceptive practice of breaking up pricing into parts and
labor when the breakout is really into (parts + labor) + labor.

There's no deception involved. You can't seem to get your mind around the
simple concept that only the *total* price matters. How the contractor chooses
to break it down is irrelevant.

Suppose I bid on a job for you, and we agree on a total price of $500. Then,
when I present my invoice showing $200 for materials (that cost me $100) and
$300 for labor, you complain that I'm overpricing my materials -- but if I had
presented an invoice showing $100 for materials and $400 for labor, you'd be
okay with that???

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 01:51:43 GMT, ender (Jeffrey
J. Kosowsky) scribbled this interesting note:

In fact, the only time it often makes sense to repair is when you are
a DIY since the major cost of repair is labor not parts.

Except that when doing a paint job on someone's home most of the cost
is in labor. Now most people seem to think that just because a paint
brush will fit in their hands that they are painters. Alas, such is
not the case. It takes a bit of patience and knowledge to know how to
properly prep a house for paint-two things most homeowners don't know
about. Actually holding the brush is one of the less important things
in the job!:~)


--
John Willis
(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

(Doug Miller) writes:
In article , ender (Jeffrey J. Kosowsky) wrote:

I agree that if reputation is excellent and price quote is reasonable
then no need to break quote into part and labor. My complaint is more
against the deceptive practice of breaking up pricing into parts and
labor when the breakout is really into (parts + labor) + labor.

There's no deception involved. You can't seem to get your mind around the
simple concept that only the *total* price matters. How the contractor chooses
to break it down is irrelevant.

Suppose I bid on a job for you, and we agree on a total price of $500. Then,
when I present my invoice showing $200 for materials (that cost me $100) and
$300 for labor, you complain that I'm overpricing my materials -- but if I had
presented an invoice showing $100 for materials and $400 for labor, you'd be
okay with that???

You seem to not be able to read what I write. I have said many times
that I have nothing wrong with total price bid. Just if you are going
to break it into parts and labor, then you should do so in a way that
reasonably represents the two components. Otherwise, at best you are
providing useless information and at worse you are misleading me into
believing that your labor is more competitively priced than your
competitors and that the difference in materials cost is due to true
difference in choice of materials.

"TURTLE" writes:

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
"TURTLE" writes:
Earth to Jeffrey , If you think Home Depot is giving you a big discount on
equipment such as HVAC stuff. I run a HVAC contracting business and sell at a
30% mark up on parts. Home Depot sells at a 50% mark up and if I sold at Home
Depot's prices I would have to go up on prices by 20% higher. Whatever Home
Depot sells for $1,000.00 -- I sell for $850.00 or so.

Earth to Turtle -- clearly you didn't bother to look at Home Depot's
financial statements. While results for individual items may vary,
Home Depot's gross margin according to their latest 10K filing is just
shy of 32% (not 50%), giving them an operating margin of
10%. Considering that their buying power allows them to get better
pricing than other supply houses let only the price that wholesalers
sell to contractors like yourself, I find it hard to believe that your
retail pricing is on average 20% better than Home Depot. Now that
doesn't mean that there aren't individual items where you can beat
Home Depot on price, just that I don't believe that you can buy from a
local supply house, add your own markup and still sell parts on
average 20% cheaper than Home Depot.


This is Turtle.

Huuuuummmmmm , Well Home Depot sells a 3 ton condenser only no labor for
$1,121.00 . I buy it for $411.00 + [ 30% $123.00 ] = $534.00 X 2 = $1,068.00 my
cost of condenser installed with labor included. Now do you see the profit
margin of the HVAC industry is a different story than what you see on a 10K
filing.


If you can buy, install, and profit for less than HomeDepot gross
margin of 30%, then that is truly amazing!

John Willis writes:

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 01:51:43 GMT, ender (Jeffrey
J. Kosowsky) scribbled this interesting note:

In fact, the only time it often makes sense to repair is when you are
a DIY since the major cost of repair is labor not parts.

Except that when doing a paint job on someone's home most of the cost
is in labor. Now most people seem to think that just because a paint
brush will fit in their hands that they are painters. Alas, such is
not the case. It takes a bit of patience and knowledge to know how to
properly prep a house for paint-two things most homeowners don't know
about. Actually holding the brush is one of the less important things
in the job!:~)

Isn't that what I said? -- "major cost of repair is labor not parts"

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
"TURTLE" writes:

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
"TURTLE" writes:
Earth to Jeffrey , If you think Home Depot is giving you a big discount
on
equipment such as HVAC stuff. I run a HVAC contracting business and sell
at a
30% mark up on parts. Home Depot sells at a 50% mark up and if I sold at
Home
Depot's prices I would have to go up on prices by 20% higher. Whatever
Home
Depot sells for $1,000.00 -- I sell for $850.00 or so.

Earth to Turtle -- clearly you didn't bother to look at Home Depot's
financial statements. While results for individual items may vary,
Home Depot's gross margin according to their latest 10K filing is just
shy of 32% (not 50%), giving them an operating margin of
10%. Considering that their buying power allows them to get better
pricing than other supply houses let only the price that wholesalers
sell to contractors like yourself, I find it hard to believe that your
retail pricing is on average 20% better than Home Depot. Now that
doesn't mean that there aren't individual items where you can beat
Home Depot on price, just that I don't believe that you can buy from a
local supply house, add your own markup and still sell parts on
average 20% cheaper than Home Depot.


This is Turtle.

Huuuuummmmmm , Well Home Depot sells a 3 ton condenser only no labor for
$1,121.00 . I buy it for $411.00 + [ 30% $123.00 ] = $534.00 X 2 = $1,068.00
my
cost of condenser installed with labor included. Now do you see the profit
margin of the HVAC industry is a different story than what you see on a 10K
filing.


If you can buy, install, and profit for less than HomeDepot gross
margin of 30%, then that is truly amazing!


This is Turtle.

Well to be more exact here. There is another discount system set up for discount
/ wholesale buyers that is rated in a scale of A to Z type buyers. I'm a G buyer
and Home Depot is said to be a W buyer or could be a Z buyer. The W buyer will
be a 11% more discount than me at a G buyer level. So Home Depot can buy close
to 11% cheaper than I can.

The reason you see the higher prices from HD is they have a higher over head
than I and have to account for them. This is why Home Depot, Sears, and Low's
stores is getting their ass eat up by independent contractor and the customers
don't check prices out at Independent contractor before buying. These store are
tring to cut the over head down and now are hiring the cheapest independent
contractor to install their equipment for them and they are having too many
return calls to pay for by not installing the equipment right the first time.
They do hire the cheapest or the Rookie of the year contractor to try to keep
the overhead down to compete with the regular hvac contractor.

Now i love to bid against Sears because I alway bid about $1,000.00 cheaper than
Sears on complete hvac systems. All sears does is get a Independent contractor
to do the job and then stick a $1K on top for them as profit and handling the
paperwork and selling the unit at the stores. I don't install for Sears because
they wanted me to sign a agreement to not bid against them in my area. I would
not sign because i think the public should have a choice of prices and dealers
to choose from.

Now like I said before I walked off into a bunch of Non-Wholesale buy to try to
explain the discount system.

2 cents more.

TURTLE

"TURTLE" writes:
Well to be more exact here. There is another discount system set up for discount
/ wholesale buyers that is rated in a scale of A to Z type buyers. I'm a G buyer
and Home Depot is said to be a W buyer or could be a Z buyer. The W buyer will
be a 11% more discount than me at a G buyer level. So Home Depot can buy close
to 11% cheaper than I can.

The reason you see the higher prices from HD is they have a higher over head
than I and have to account for them. This is why Home Depot, Sears, and Low's
stores is getting their ass eat up by independent contractor and the customers
don't check prices out at Independent contractor before buying. These store are
tring to cut the over head down and now are hiring the cheapest independent
contractor to install their equipment for them and they are having too many
return calls to pay for by not installing the equipment right the first time.
They do hire the cheapest or the Rookie of the year contractor to try to keep
the overhead down to compete with the regular hvac contractor.

Now i love to bid against Sears because I alway bid about $1,000.00 cheaper than
Sears on complete hvac systems. All sears does is get a Independent contractor
to do the job and then stick a $1K on top for them as profit and handling the
paperwork and selling the unit at the stores. I don't install for Sears because
they wanted me to sign a agreement to not bid against them in my area. I would
not sign because i think the public should have a choice of prices and dealers
to choose from.

Now like I said before I walked off into a bunch of Non-Wholesale buy to try to
explain the discount system.

2 cents more.


Ahhh... I didn't realize you were referring to Home Depot price of
*installed* equipment. In that case, I agree with you entirely both on
pricing and quality. Service and installation is a huge profit center
for them and they higher the cheapest possible labor without too much
regard for quality.

I was talking more about the price of components (for DIY jobs) where
pricing is more transparent and competitive. In that case, I would
find it hard to believe that you could provide parts and labor for the
same price I could buy the part at Home Depot (assuming that you are
using "equivalent" parts -- the quality of Home Depot parts is for
another thread...)

Jeffrey J. Kosowsky posted for all of us....


If I act like a contractor and don't waste the time of the sales clerk
any more than a real contractor, then why should I not get similar
pricing? (after adjusting perhaps for some volume discount that true
high volume contractors may deserve)

But you ARE wasting their time. You admitted you called one branch did your
research, then called the other branch to order. Meanwhile somebody is
waiting at the counter while the first branch nursemaids you.

You pay sales tax for that stuff? Probably not...

What do you do for a living? Bet you're in by 8:05 and gone by 4:55 and if
you have to stay you want OT or a bonus.
--
Tekkie

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:45:28 GMT, ender (Jeffrey
J. Kosowsky) scribbled this interesting note:

John Willis writes:

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 01:51:43 GMT, ender (Jeffrey
J. Kosowsky) scribbled this interesting note:

In fact, the only time it often makes sense to repair is when you are
a DIY since the major cost of repair is labor not parts.

Except that when doing a paint job on someone's home most of the cost
is in labor. Now most people seem to think that just because a paint
brush will fit in their hands that they are painters. Alas, such is
not the case. It takes a bit of patience and knowledge to know how to
properly prep a house for paint-two things most homeowners don't know
about. Actually holding the brush is one of the less important things
in the job!:~)

Isn't that what I said? -- "major cost of repair is labor not parts"

But in that case what you are paying for is expertise.

I agree, a total price that is not deceptive in breaking down prices
is best...which happens to be how we estimate and bid jobs.

For what it is worth, what I was saying above is the common, garden
variety do-it-yourselfer is not qualified to hold a paint brush. I
apologize if you missed the implication.
--
John Willis
(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
: Now that the Internet has made pricing so transparent, it gets even
: more frustrating to walk into a local supply house and realize that
: you are not getting the same deal that contractors get.

Hello Jeffrey!

You've done an admirable job arguing your case, probably won't convince any
pro's here to change their mind...

I'm more interested your repeated allocutions to pricing via the internet.
Would you care to share with the group these internet sources?

As a 'confirmed' DIY'er myself, I'm trying hard to see your point. Whenever
I've gone to specialty suppliers (the contractor's sources) it has always
been armed with specific item numbers/descriptions/quantity information. Be
it from my own research or advice of a hired pro. However, to go from one
specialty house to another takes up *way* more time than simply stopping by
one of the two borgs in my neighborhood. I maybe saving 10-15% at the
specialty shop, but waste a lot of time doing so... I digress...

And if labor is generally ~50%~ of a projects cost, are you realizing your
greatest savings by doing the work? Plus, end the end the realization that
*you* did the work!

Rick

Do your research, know exactly what you want by name, make, model and part
number, and find out the retail price, go to a local wholesaler of that item
and ask his price. Ask for his trade price it should be anywhere from 10% to
33.3% lower than retail. If you act professionally, they may give you the
trade price. If they don't, try somewhere else.


"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
Now that the Internet has made pricing so transparent, it gets even
more frustrating to walk into a local supply house and realize that
you are not getting the same deal that contractors get.

- Any tricks on how best to get "contractor discounts" from the local
suppy house?

- How big are the discounts typically to their parallel off-the-street
retail (not list) price?

- Is the discount typically the same for plumbing vs. electrical
vs. building materials vs. gardening/landscaping, etc.?

- What about for "finished" fixtures (e.g., lamps, fawcetts,
cabinets) vs. basic materials (e.g., wire, pipe, lumber)?

Tekkie writes:
But you ARE wasting their time. You admitted you called one branch did your
research, then called the other branch to order. Meanwhile somebody is
waiting at the counter while the first branch nursemaids you.


For someone with a name like "Tekkie", you sound like you have an IQ
of about 50. Do you know how to follow a Usenet thread? If you did,
you would know that I was not the poster who talked about calling "one
branch" and going to another.

You pay sales tax for that stuff? Probably not...

Just because you appear to be a shady contractor whose business is
threatened by honest pricing does not mean that others are similarly
dishonest. Trying to get the best price on supplies is "good 'ole
American capitalism," cheating on taxes is illegal -- can you grasp
the difference?


What do you do for a living? Bet you're in by 8:05 and gone by 4:55 and if
you have to stay you want OT or a bonus.
--

I am sure that your pea brain could not even begin to comprehend what
I do for a living

"pray4surf" writes:

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
: Now that the Internet has made pricing so transparent, it gets even
: more frustrating to walk into a local supply house and realize that
: you are not getting the same deal that contractors get.

Hello Jeffrey!

You've done an admirable job arguing your case, probably won't convince any
pro's here to change their mind...

Thanks.

I'm more interested your repeated allocutions to pricing via the internet.
Would you care to share with the group these internet sources?

I usually use the Internet more for researching what is available and
finding out competitive pricing is more of a side benefit.

As a 'confirmed' DIY'er myself, I'm trying hard to see your point. Whenever
I've gone to specialty suppliers (the contractor's sources) it has always
been armed with specific item numbers/descriptions/quantity information. Be
it from my own research or advice of a hired pro. However, to go from one
specialty house to another takes up *way* more time than simply stopping by
one of the two borgs in my neighborhood. I maybe saving 10-15% at the
specialty shop, but waste a lot of time doing so... I digress...

I don't disagree. In fact, until recently, I used to just go buy
everything at the big box store, until I started hearing rumors of
inferior products masquerading as name brand product -- hard to know
how much of this is just self-serving innuendo served up by threatened
mom-and-pop supply houses, but it has made me hesitate before just
scooping up parts at Home Depot.

Now if doubts about Home Depot quality lead me to start visiting more
supply houses, then at least I don't want to feel like I am paying
twice as much as the guy next to me just because he calls himself a
contractor.

What I don't understand is why so many disgruntled contractors on this
newsgroup are so offended by this to the point of getting nasty and
ad-hominem. I am not forcing anybody to give me better pricing -- it
is a free country and vendors are free to give me discounts or not. In
fact, it would be quite naive and reckless of me not to try to get the
best price for an item. I mean how many people walk into a store when
an item is on sale and say please give me the regular price instead...

"Eric Tonks" etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM writes:

Do your research, know exactly what you want by name, make, model and part
number, and find out the retail price, go to a local wholesaler of that item
and ask his price. Ask for his trade price it should be anywhere from 10% to
33.3% lower than retail. If you act professionally, they may give you the
trade price. If they don't, try somewhere else.

Thanks -- very helpful.

(Jeffrey J. Kosowsky)


"pray4surf" writes:

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
: Now that the Internet has made pricing so transparent, it gets even
: more frustrating to walk into a local supply house and realize that
: you are not getting the same deal that contractors get.

Hello Jeffrey!

You've done an admirable job arguing your case, probably won't convince any
pro's here to change their mind...

Thanks.

I'm more interested your repeated allocutions to pricing via the internet.
Would you care to share with the group these internet sources?

I usually use the Internet more for researching what is available and
finding out competitive pricing is more of a side benefit.

As a 'confirmed' DIY'er myself, I'm trying hard to see your point. Whenever
I've gone to specialty suppliers (the contractor's sources) it has always
been armed with specific item numbers/descriptions/quantity information. Be
it from my own research or advice of a hired pro. However, to go from one
specialty house to another takes up *way* more time than simply stopping by
one of the two borgs in my neighborhood. I maybe saving 10-15% at the
specialty shop, but waste a lot of time doing so... I digress...



I don't disagree. In fact, until recently, I used to just go buy
everything at the big box store, until I started hearing rumors of
inferior products masquerading as name brand product -- hard to know
how much of this is just self-serving innuendo served up by threatened
mom-and-pop supply houses, but it has made me hesitate before just
scooping up parts at Home Depot.


The rumors are generally true. The likes of HD and Lowes have the ability to
get manufacturers to make special lines of their product, sold only through
these respective stores.

Case in point - HD made Milwakee replace some metal parts in their power tools
with plastic in order to cut the cost of, and therefore the price to, Home
Depot.

Kwikset and Shlege locks made only for HD or Lowes.

American Standard and some Kohler faucets which look exactly like the ones
available from any plumbing supplier, yet somehow made in China instead of the
USA and for some odd reason, a few ounces lighter.

And, you don't really believe that either HD or Lowes is getting the best
lumber from the mills, and leaving the seconds for the builder's lumberyards,
do you?

Now if doubts about Home Depot quality lead me to start visiting more
supply houses, then at least I don't want to feel like I am paying
twice as much as the guy next to me just because he calls himself a
contractor.

You wouldn't be paying twice as much. But you would be paying more because
professional supply houses cater to the professionals who have a different way
of doing business than your typical retail customer. And while choosing to sell
to professionals or choosing to sell retail both have their pros and cons,
generally, it is more expensive to deal with the public than on a pro-to-pro
basis.

What I don't understand is why so many disgruntled contractors on this
newsgroup are so offended by this to the point of getting nasty and
ad-hominem. I am not forcing anybody to give me better pricing -- it
is a free country and vendors are free to give me discounts or not. In
fact, it would be quite naive and reckless of me not to try to get the
best price for an item. I mean how many people walk into a store when
an item is on sale and say please give me the regular price instead...

I can't speak for anyone else, but if an Item retails for 100 bucks but
contractors get it for 75. because they spend thousands every month, and don't
take up counter employee time, and don't pay for floor space for pretty
displays, and don't have to pay markups due to retail shrink, and don't pay for
air conditioning and heating hundreds of thousands of sq. ft. of storage
space... and that wholesaler starts catering to retail clients and all it's
added expenses as if there was no comparison, I'd be a little miffed too.

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
(Doug Miller) writes:
In article , ender
(Jeffrey J. Kosowsky) wrote:

I agree that if reputation is excellent and price quote is reasonable
then no need to break quote into part and labor. My complaint is more
against the deceptive practice of breaking up pricing into parts and
labor when the breakout is really into (parts + labor) + labor.

There's no deception involved. You can't seem to get your mind around the
simple concept that only the *total* price matters. How the contractor
chooses
to break it down is irrelevant.

Suppose I bid on a job for you, and we agree on a total price of $500. Then,
when I present my invoice showing $200 for materials (that cost me $100) and
$300 for labor, you complain that I'm overpricing my materials -- but if I
had
presented an invoice showing $100 for materials and $400 for labor, you'd be
okay with that???

You seem to not be able to read what I write. I have said many times
that I have nothing wrong with total price bid. Just if you are going
to break it into parts and labor, then you should do so in a way that
reasonably represents the two components. Otherwise, at best you are
providing useless information and at worse you are misleading me into
believing that your labor is more competitively priced than your
competitors and that the difference in materials cost is due to true
difference in choice of materials.

This is Turtle.

No Jeffrey, The only reason we are still talking about this issue is you don't
like the mark up on parts and material and You not being told about it. You want
like a hvac contractor to tell you he buys the condenser for $411.00 and will
install it for $1,200.00. Then you take that info and tell the next contractor
that you will give him $411.00 for the condenser and you think $300.00 labor
seems good enough and take it or leave it. The good contractor will walk off,
but the hvac hack will take you up on it and just throw it in and collect the
money with no warrenty. Then when you want some one to come fix the mistake. You
have to call the good contractor back which will charge you out your ass for
fixing it because your stuck with no warrenty. All good contractors know a hack
has been there by just looking at the equipment and we all think a like. If you
pull the price game on one contractror. They tell each other and wait for you.
If you was just screwed by a hack out of just getting bids from all. I / We will
try to cut the cost of fixing the screw up as low as we can.

If you think you breaking new ground on the pricing game , well son , it has
been done back in the 1950's till today and the result is still the same. 1/3 of
my HVAC business is just fixing screw up by Hacks and Pricing Game players.
Tuesday i will be replacing a split system on a $400k home that a hack put in
and was under sized & Poorly installed. The system is 3 years old and will pull
it out and install it correctly in his guest house and replace the main unit
with a new 4 ton 15 seer. Now the hack sure give him a good price on the system
but it did not work like it should have.

I know it is tuff on you have to be not told all the details of the job but the
world and the industry will go on without you. If you did not know it but your
the best help the Hacks of this industry has because of wanting to know all
price and not look at who is doing the job. The Hack's love Price Game player
for they can cut the price down to do the job without worring about quality of
the labor being presented. If all, customer really started looking at quality of
the installation. Hacks would just get out of the business for they would have
hell getting jobs.

TURTLE

"TURTLE" writes:
"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
You seem to not be able to read what I write. I have said many times
that I have nothing wrong with total price bid. Just if you are going
to break it into parts and labor, then you should do so in a way that
reasonably represents the two components. Otherwise, at best you are
providing useless information and at worse you are misleading me into
believing that your labor is more competitively priced than your
competitors and that the difference in materials cost is due to true
difference in choice of materials.

This is Turtle.

No Jeffrey, The only reason we are still talking about this issue is you don't
like the mark up on parts and material and You not being told about it. You want
like a hvac contractor to tell you he buys the condenser for $411.00 and will
install it for $1,200.00. Then you take that info and tell the next contractor
that you will give him $411.00 for the condenser and you think $300.00 labor
seems good enough and take it or leave it.

Not sure where you are getting the above -- you seem to be either
unable or unwilling to understand what I am saying.
- First, if you have at all followed the thread, my primary
question was about how I can increase my odds at getting a
contractor discount when I am acting essentially as a contractor
(whether as a DIY or as a general contractor for my own own
job). In reality, I find that I sometimes get the discount and
sometimes don't.

- You and others then twisted this thread into a discussion of
contractor markup on pricing. In that case, I responded that
adding a large markup to materials essentially is a hidden way
of shifting labor costs from the labor to the materials
column. My point there is that this is confusing, potentially
deceptive, makes it difficult to compare true pricing, and
basically makes the labor vs. materials cost meaningless.

- In any case, I have always said that total price is what matters
(assuming contractors are of equal quality and job is the same).


The good contractor will walk off,
but the hvac hack will take you up on it and just throw it in and collect the
money with no warrenty. Then when you want some one to come fix the mistake. You
have to call the good contractor back which will charge you out your ass for
fixing it because your stuck with no warrenty. All good contractors know a hack
has been there by just looking at the equipment and we all think a like. If you
pull the price game on one contractror. They tell each other and wait for you.
If you was just screwed by a hack out of just getting bids from all. I / We will
try to cut the cost of fixing the screw up as low as we can.

Not sure what you are ranting about but this has *nothing* to do with
labor vs. materials mark-up. You seem to be saying that one should not
go with the lowball price because you often get what you pay for which
is of course self-evident.


If you think you breaking new ground on the pricing game , well son , it has
been done back in the 1950's till today and the result is still the same. 1/3 of
my HVAC business is just fixing screw up by Hacks and Pricing Game players.
Tuesday i will be replacing a split system on a $400k home that a hack put in
and was under sized & Poorly installed. The system is 3 years old and will pull
it out and install it correctly in his guest house and replace the main unit
with a new 4 ton 15 seer. Now the hack sure give him a good price on the system
but it did not work like it should have.

Again, this has nothing to do with anything I ever said -- sounds like
you have some personal problems with this but not sure what this has
to do with me.


I know it is tuff on you have to be not told all the details of the job but the
world and the industry will go on without you. If you did not know it but your
the best help the Hacks of this industry has because of wanting to know all
price and not look at who is doing the job. The Hack's love Price Game player
for they can cut the price down to do the job without worring about quality of
the labor being presented. If all, customer really started looking at quality of
the installation. Hacks would just get out of the business for they would have
hell getting jobs.

It is always easy to win a strawman agrument... the only problem is
that you are arguing with yourself. Again, I never claimed that one
should buy only on price.

The irony (which you clearly fail to appreciate) is that having more
transparent pricing for labor and materials actually helps in part to
minimize the problems that you are ranting about. Specifically, if the
pricing for materials and labor are accurately represented then when
you get a low price you can more easily analyze the following:
- If price of materials is lower, is that because the contractor
is using cheaper quality materials?
- If price of labor is lower is that because one contractor is
pricing too high or because one contractor is lowballing?

Any tricks for getting "contractor" discount on supplies?

Sure. Go see your lawyer. Set up an LLC or S corporation. Fill out the
state/federal tax forms. File the appropriate credit apps with your suppliers.
You are now a legit contractor. Pay all your bills before the 10th prox. and
take that discount, too.
Now go play by the rules. HTH

Joe