"Larry" wrote in message
...
On 5/22/21 1:11 AM, Joey wrote:
Makes a lot more sense to build nukes and heat houses that way.


True but you better have backup heat because a tree branch loaded with ice
can take out electric power for a week.

Not with underground power it cant.

Even in the summer, thunderstorms, half-dead trees and power lines don't
mix either.

I dont heat my house in summer.

Every power outage I've suffered through was caused by some jackass
leftist environmental-wacko tree-huger who just had to plant trees along
the power line right-of-way.

Our power utility cuts those down. You lot are too stupid
to do that ? You get to wear the downsides of that.

On Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 12:45:59 PM UTC-4, Joey wrote:
"Larry" wrote in message
...
On 5/22/21 1:11 AM, Joey wrote:
Makes a lot more sense to build nukes and heat houses that way.


True but you better have backup heat because a tree branch loaded with ice
can take out electric power for a week.
Not with underground power it cant.

There are probably hundreds of thousands of miles of overhead power
lines in the U.S. I've never lived in a house new enough to have underground
power.

Utilities cannot afford to bury all those lines.

Even in the summer, thunderstorms, half-dead trees and power lines don't
mix either.
I dont heat my house in summer.

Yet there is need for electric power in summer. Unless you wash your
clothing by beating it on rocks in the river. Do you?

Every power outage I've suffered through was caused by some jackass
leftist environmental-wacko tree-huger who just had to plant trees along
the power line right-of-way.
Our power utility cuts those down. You lot are too stupid
to do that ? You get to wear the downsides of that.

For years, our power utility didn't cut them down. Then they started with
a ritzy suburb that had complained about power reliability. It did not
take long for the lawsuits to start.

A few summers ago our utility came through my neighborhood and cut
down a bunch of trees some previous owner of my house was stupid
enough to plant directly under the power lines.

Cindy Hamilton

"Frank" "frank wrote in message
...
On 5/21/2021 10:56 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 21 May 2021 21:45:41 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/21/2021 7:53 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message


No the grid is not up to it. Will it ever be if not pushed into it?
CA can't even keep the lights on at night

So it makes no sense at all to be charging lots of EVs at night.

Wow. Just wow.

He has a point. There is no solar at night and less wind. Having
everyone charging at the same time isn't a good idea either. If we
replace ICEs with electrics we'll need a lot more generating capacity.
Everyone doing it at the same time will make things even worse.


Correct about solar and wind but it is of interest that TVA pumps back
water at night when electric use is low.

https://www.tva.com/about-tva/our-hi...taintop-marvel

**** all of the country gets their electricity from operations that do that.

On Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 11:45:59 AM UTC-5, Joey wrote:
"Larry" wrote in message
...
On 5/22/21 1:11 AM, Joey wrote:
Makes a lot more sense to build nukes and heat houses that way.


True but you better have backup heat because a tree branch loaded with ice
can take out electric power for a week
Not with underground power it can't.

Yeahbut, overhead transmission lines can carry a lot more power than
underground can. The local utilities must've solved the issue with using
twisted pair wiring overhead.
Even in the summer, thunderstorms, half-dead trees and power lines don't
mix either.
I dont heat my house in summer.

People in my area are fond of air conditioning. The local utilities shut down
irrigation during the day so people can stay cool in their offices.

Every power outage I've suffered through was caused by some jackass
leftist environmental-wacko tree-huger who just had to plant trees along
the power line right-of-way.
Our power utility cuts those down. You lot are too stupid
to do that ? You get to wear the downsides of that.

The worst power outage in my area in memory was due to a spring ice/snowstorm.
(Central Nebraska)

On 05/22/2021 04:59 AM, Larry wrote:
On 5/22/21 1:11 AM, Joey wrote:
Makes a lot more sense to build nukes and heat houses that way.


True but you better have backup heat because a tree branch loaded with
ice can take out electric power for a week.

Which also takes out the circulating pumps and so forth. I've got a Mr.
Heater for days like that.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/21/2021 10:56 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 21 May 2021 21:45:41 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/21/2021 7:53 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message


No the grid is not up to it. Will it ever be if not pushed into it?
CA can't even keep the lights on at night

So it makes no sense at all to be charging lots of EVs at night.

Wow. Just wow.

He has a point. There is no solar at night and less wind. Having
everyone charging at the same time isn't a good idea either. If we
replace ICEs with electrics we'll need a lot more generating capacity.
Everyone doing it at the same time will make things even worse.

No simple answer

Yes there is, nukes.

but we need more non fossil fueled power plants.

And they should be nukes, not stupid wind farms
which dont provide reliable power and **** the
environment and not solar farms which only
produce enough electricity for a part of the day.

Once demand is there,

It already is, almost everyone heats their
house in winter and most cool it in summer.

supply can and will be built. The worst thing to do is nothing.

No one who matters is suggesting doing nothing.

With CA forcing people into EVs they have to support them.

Bet they dont and the whole thing ends
up a complete shambles like it is now.
Because they are doing the wrong thing.

Same as gas stations grew over the past 100 years.

Nothing like that in fact. That was never done centrally.

On 05/21/2021 07:45 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/21/2021 7:53 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message


No the grid is not up to it. Will it ever be if not pushed into it?
CA can't even keep the lights on at night

So it makes no sense at all to be charging lots of EVs at night.

Wow. Just wow.


https://www.wbur.org/bostonomix/2016...ectric-station

The company I worked for installed the Trabon lubrication systems in the
station so I got to tag along with the crew supervisor. It's impressive
if you don't think too hard about being 700' under a lake.

But, germane to the thread, the scheme depended on excess generating
capacity at night. 100,000 Teslas plugged in overnight in the
Connecticut valley is going to alter that situation.

On 05/21/2021 08:56 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 21 May 2021 21:45:41 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/21/2021 7:53 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message


No the grid is not up to it. Will it ever be if not pushed into it?
CA can't even keep the lights on at night

So it makes no sense at all to be charging lots of EVs at night.

Wow. Just wow.

He has a point. There is no solar at night and less wind. Having
everyone charging at the same time isn't a good idea either. If we
replace ICEs with electrics we'll need a lot more generating capacity.
Everyone doing it at the same time will make things even worse.


And as I pointed out in another post the pumped storage schemes like
Northfield Mountain will take a hit.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/22/2021 12:56 AM, Joey wrote:

Yep, stop ****ing natural gas against the wall heating
houses and use nukes to do that with electricity.


It wont ever be gone, at worst we synthesise it using power from nukes.


Nope, nukes for ships work fine.


Yep, buy building more nukes.


And the best way to do that is with nukes, not stupid EVs.

You have a lot of plans for nukes. Better get them started to be ready in
time.

There is no rush.

This is the time needed for construction, the permitting process can be
very long too.

It wasnt for those with a clue like France until
they were actually stupid enough to let the
EU tell them how nukes must be done.

How long does it take to build a new power plant? 40-60 months

Not in china. You lot should look at how they do them. And thats
nothing like the time needed to produce viable EV designs anyway.

If we're talking actual construction time of a nuclear power plant, it's a
bit of a long endeavor and depends on the design.

So use the best designs. Not rocket science.

Generally, plant construction can take 40-60 months from the first
concrete pour to the end of construction when fuel is loaded.

And thats nothing like the time needed to produce viable EV designs anyway.

On 05/22/2021 08:52 AM, Frank wrote:
On 5/21/2021 10:56 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 21 May 2021 21:45:41 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/21/2021 7:53 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message


No the grid is not up to it. Will it ever be if not pushed into it?
CA can't even keep the lights on at night

So it makes no sense at all to be charging lots of EVs at night.

Wow. Just wow.

He has a point. There is no solar at night and less wind. Having
everyone charging at the same time isn't a good idea either. If we
replace ICEs with electrics we'll need a lot more generating capacity.
Everyone doing it at the same time will make things even worse.


Correct about solar and wind but it is of interest that TVA pumps back
water at night when electric use is low.

https://www.tva.com/about-tva/our-hi...taintop-marvel


Tennessee was late to the party.

https://www.firstlightpower.com/faci...ocation_id=346

I was wandering around that plant while Tennessee was still digging a
hole in the ground. But yes, if a significant load is added during what
was off peak hours more generation capacity is needed.

" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 12:45:59 PM UTC-4, Joey wrote:
"Larry" wrote in message
...
On 5/22/21 1:11 AM, Joey wrote:
Makes a lot more sense to build nukes and heat houses that way.


True but you better have backup heat because a tree branch
loaded with ice can take out electric power for a week.

Not with underground power it cant.

And only an incompetent utility takes a week to fix that anyway.

There are probably hundreds of thousands of miles of overhead power
lines in the U.S. I've never lived in a house new enough to have
underground
power.

Your problem.

Utilities cannot afford to bury all those lines.

Thats bull**** with the wealthiest country in the entire ****ing world.

Even in the summer, thunderstorms, half-dead trees and power lines
don't
mix either.

I dont heat my house in summer.

Yet there is need for electric power in summer.

But you dont get tree branch loaded with ice in the summer very
often at all for some reason. Cant imagine why for the life of me.

Every power outage I've suffered through was caused by some jackass
leftist environmental-wacko tree-huger who just had to plant trees
along
the power line right-of-way.

Our power utility cuts those down. You lot are too stupid
to do that ? You get to wear the downsides of that.

For years, our power utility didn't cut them down. Then they
started with a ritzy suburb that had complained about power
reliability. It did not take long for the lawsuits to start.

Then you fools get to wear the downsides of such a stupid legal system.

A few summers ago our utility came through my neighborhood
and cut down a bunch of trees some previous owner of my house
was stupid enough to plant directly under the power lines.

So you wont have a problem with no power
for a week due to an iced up branch, stupid.

On 05/22/2021 10:19 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

With CA forcing people into EVs they have to support them. Same as gas
stations grew over the past 100 years.

CA has pretty much tapped out their hydro potential. They import power
from the PNW but the Seattle granola heads will need to plug their
Teslas in too.

https://www.latimes.com/business/sto...ar-power-plant

Diablo is going off line and I doubt they will ever allow another
nuclear plant to be built in the state.

Solar is producing about 20% of their requirements so they'd better pave
the Mojave with panels. The residential mandate will drive up the cost
of their already unaffordable housing.

Wind power generation is currently less than 10%.

I've got an idea. Bicycles, lots and lots of bicycles.

On 05/22/2021 10:35 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
You have a lot of plans for nukes. Better get them started to be ready
in time. This is the time needed for construction, the permitting
process can be very long too.

How long does it take to build a new power plant?
40-60 months
If we're talking actual construction time of a nuclear power plant, it's
a bit of a long endeavor and depends on the design. Generally, plant
construction can take 40-60 months from the first concrete pour to the
end of construction when fuel is loaded.

Any technology you foresee is going to be online faster? The same crowd
that doesn't want a nuke in their backyard isn't going to want a wind
farm or solar installation either. Good luck at turning every roof in LA
into a solar generating station.

"Dean Hoffman" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 11:45:59 AM UTC-5, Joey wrote:
"Larry" wrote in message
...
On 5/22/21 1:11 AM, Joey wrote:
Makes a lot more sense to build nukes and heat houses that way.


True but you better have backup heat because a tree branch loaded with
ice
can take out electric power for a week
Not with underground power it can't.

Yeahbut, overhead transmission lines can carry
a lot more power than underground can.

Thats bull**** with new housing subdivisions.

I've been watching how ours are done, underground
everything. With power cables a ****ing sight thicker
than the ones used on the overhead lines because
its all in the one very thick cable with the undergrounds.

The local utilities must've solved the issue
with using twisted pair wiring overhead.

Twisted pair isnt used for power lines, thats for phone
lines and we dont do phone lines anymore either, its
all fiber optic underground here now. And all have
natural gas and water and sewer lines and storm
water underground too.

Even in the summer, thunderstorms, half-dead trees and power lines
don't
mix either.

I dont heat my house in summer.

People in my area are fond of air conditioning.

But that is hardly ever interrupted by an iced up branch for some reason.

The local utilities shut down irrigation during
the day so people can stay cool in their offices.

So there is no problem with no aircon for a week.
And even if there is, we have these funky things
called generators that work fine after a tornado etc.

Every power outage I've suffered through was caused by some jackass
leftist environmental-wacko tree-huger who just had to plant trees
along
the power line right-of-way.

Our power utility cuts those down. You lot are too stupid
to do that ? You get to wear the downsides of that.

The worst power outage in my area in memory was due to a spring
ice/snowstorm.
(Central Nebraska)

And that happens so rarely that it makes no sense to keep
****ing all that natural gas against the wall heating the house
all winter and part of the spring and fall.

On Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 12:45:56 PM UTC-5, Rod Speed wrote:
"Dean Hoffman" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 11:45:59 AM UTC-5, Joey wrote:
"Larry" wrote in message
...
On 5/22/21 1:11 AM, Joey wrote:
Makes a lot more sense to build nukes and heat houses that way.


True but you better have backup heat because a tree branch loaded with
ice
can take out electric power for a week
Not with underground power it can't.

Yeahbut, overhead transmission lines can carry
a lot more power than underground can.
Thats bull**** with new housing subdivisions.

I've been watching how ours are done, underground
everything. With power cables a ****ing sight thicker
than the ones used on the overhead lines because
its all in the one very thick cable with the undergrounds.

It's the same in newer parts of towns in my area in the U.S.
The power lines carrying power town to town are overhead. The
big transmission lines are overhead also.
The local utilities must've solved the issue
with using twisted pair wiring overhead.
Twisted pair isnt used for power lines, thats for phone
lines and we dont do phone lines anymore either, its
all fiber optic underground here now. And all have
natural gas and water and sewer lines and storm
water underground too.
Phone lines were buried here in the mid 70s when a good
spring ice/snowstorm hit. Natural gas lines sometimes lay
in the fence lines in rural areas along roads or are buried.
The thing about overhead twisted pair wires for power came up a
few years ago.
https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/twisted-pair-overhead-power-lines-why-870221-.htm
Philo and dpb answered my question back then.
Even in the summer, thunderstorms, half-dead trees and power lines
don't
mix either.

I dont heat my house in summer.

People in my area are fond of air conditioning.

But that is hardly ever interrupted by an iced up branch for some reason.

The local utilities shut down irrigation during
the day so people can stay cool in their offices.
So there is no problem with no aircon for a week.
And even if there is, we have these funky things
called generators that work fine after a tornado etc.
Every power outage I've suffered through was caused by some jackass
leftist environmental-wacko tree-huger who just had to plant trees
along
the power line right-of-way.

Our power utility cuts those down. You lot are too stupid
to do that ? You get to wear the downsides of that.

The worst power outage in my area in memory was due to a spring
ice/snowstorm.
(Central Nebraska)
And that happens so rarely that it makes no sense to keep
****ing all that natural gas against the wall heating the house
all winter and part of the spring and fall.

The natural gas lines are already installed. It would be a big
mess changing to electric power. Also irrigation wells and grain drying
use natural gas here. Running miles of power lines would be expensive.
I've never thought about changing a household propane or natural gas furnace to
electric heat.

On Sun, 23 May 2021 03:23:44 +1000, Joey, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

Concerned that you might be in Pawlowski's killfile, you abnormal
nym-shifting senile asshole? LOL

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Sun, 23 May 2021 03:36:38 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
"Who or What is Rod Speed?

Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Sat, 22 May 2021 11:26:21 -0600, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


I was wandering around that plant

All alone? With nobody around to admire your verbosity? Hard to believe.
BG

On Sun, 23 May 2021 03:11:32 +1000, Joey, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:


FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread


--
Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Sat, 22 May 2021 11:38:27 -0600, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:



I've got an idea. Bicycles, lots and lots of bicycles.

Nope, you just got a big mouth. And words, lots and lots of words!

"Dean Hoffman" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 12:45:56 PM UTC-5, Rod Speed wrote:
"Dean Hoffman" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 11:45:59 AM UTC-5, Joey wrote:
"Larry" wrote in message
...
On 5/22/21 1:11 AM, Joey wrote:
Makes a lot more sense to build nukes and heat houses that way.


True but you better have backup heat because a tree branch loaded
with
ice
can take out electric power for a week
Not with underground power it can't.

Yeahbut, overhead transmission lines can carry
a lot more power than underground can.
Thats bull**** with new housing subdivisions.

I've been watching how ours are done, underground
everything. With power cables a ****ing sight thicker
than the ones used on the overhead lines because
its all in the one very thick cable with the undergrounds.

It's the same in newer parts of towns in my area in the U.S.
The power lines carrying power town to town are overhead. The
big transmission lines are overhead also.
The local utilities must've solved the issue
with using twisted pair wiring overhead.

Twisted pair isnt used for power lines, thats for phone
lines and we dont do phone lines anymore either, its
all fiber optic underground here now. And all have
natural gas and water and sewer lines and storm
water underground too.

Phone lines were buried here in the mid 70s

Here too then.

when a good spring ice/snowstorm hit.

Didnt happen for that reason here, just looking better
and not being vulnerable to lightning strikes.

Natural gas lines sometimes lay in the fence lines in rural areas along
roads

Never get it done that stupidly here.

or are buried.

All ours are apart from ****ing great pipelines.

The thing about overhead twisted pair wires
for power came up a few years ago.

We have that between the power poles and the house barge board.
Not a pair tho, mine is 4 wires with only 3 used because I dont have
a 3 phase service, only a 2 phase service. Quite different to the north
american house services.

https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/twisted-pair-overhead-power-lines-why-870221-.htm
Philo and dpb answered my question back then.

Even in the summer, thunderstorms, half-dead trees and power lines
don't mix either.

I dont heat my house in summer.

People in my area are fond of air conditioning.

But that is hardly ever interrupted by an iced up branch for some reason.

The local utilities shut down irrigation during
the day so people can stay cool in their offices.
So there is no problem with no aircon for a week.
And even if there is, we have these funky things
called generators that work fine after a tornado etc.
Every power outage I've suffered through was caused by some jackass
leftist environmental-wacko tree-huger who just had to plant trees
along
the power line right-of-way.

Our power utility cuts those down. You lot are too stupid
to do that ? You get to wear the downsides of that.

The worst power outage in my area in memory was due to a spring
ice/snowstorm.
(Central Nebraska)
And that happens so rarely that it makes no sense to keep
****ing all that natural gas against the wall heating the house
all winter and part of the spring and fall.

The natural gas lines are already installed. It
would be a big mess changing to electric power.

Nope, the power lines are already installed too.

Also irrigation wells and grain drying use natural gas here.

Stupid to be ****ing what gas we have against the wall that way.

Running miles of power lines would be expensive.

So are stupid EVs.

I've never thought about changing a household
propane or natural gas furnace to electric heat.

It isnt financially useful currently, but if you are
worried about the gas running out as Ed is, it
makes a lot more sense than stupid EVs

On Sat, 22 May 2021 11:20:42 -0600, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


And as I pointed out in another post the pumped storage schemes like
Northfield Mountain will take a hit.

Yeah, eventually babbling senile assholes on Usenet will save the world,
lowbrowwoman!

On Sat, 22 May 2021 11:19:09 -0600, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


But, germane to the thread,

The thread is off topic, yet again, you endlessly driveling senile gossip!

On Sun, 23 May 2021 04:57:05 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Bill Wright addressing senile Ozzie cretin Rodent Speed:
"Well you make up a lot of stuff and it's total ******** most of it."
MID:

On Fri, 21 May 2021 00:42:16 -0400, posted for all of us to
digest...


On Fri, 21 May 2021 02:21:02 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
wrote:

In writes:

[snip]

I'm not a fan of electrics but I really can't see it in a truck. The
batteries subtract from the payload and towing capability.

otoh, better torque and horsepower matching with
an electric motor vs. fossil fuel engines.

I would be curious how those Tesla drivers do on range when they are
showing off their 0-60 at every light. The ones I see look like some
Mobil Gas Economy Run veteran is driving.

Yeah! They only time they put the foot on the pedal is when they cut you off to
get a parking space.

--
Tekkie

On 5/22/2021 1:44 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 05/22/2021 10:35 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
You have a lot of plans for nukes.Â* Better get them started to be ready
in time.Â* This is the time needed for construction, the permitting
process can be very long too.

How long does it take to build a new power plant?
40-60 months
If we're talking actual construction time of a nuclear power plant, it's
a bit of a long endeavor and depends on the design. Generally, plant
construction can take 40-60 months from the first concrete pour to the
end of construction when fuel is loaded.

Any technology you foresee is going to be online faster? The same crowd
that doesn't want a nuke in their backyard isn't going to want a wind
farm or solar installation either. Good luck at turning every roof in LA
into a solar generating station.


Nothing is faster but when do we start? You really have to look to the
future and plan for it. There is good reason I don't live in CA. They
should be building nukes now if they want to transition to EVs.

Like it or not, they are coming and we don't have the infrastructure to
support it. Sorry folks, but you will have nukes and windmills in the
backyard. Or it will be very dark riding your bike to the store.

On 5/22/2021 2:19 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:


The natural gas lines are already installed. It would be a big
mess changing to electric power. Also irrigation wells and grain drying
use natural gas here. Running miles of power lines would be expensive.
I've never thought about changing a household propane or natural gas furnace to
electric heat.


You won't have to but your grandkids may. Another option, not yet
feasible is solar and batteries. Maybe in 20 or 50 years it will work.

On Fri, 21 May 2021 07:55:18 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

What is your plan? What to you see in 40 years?

Most of us won't see anything, we will be dead

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/22/2021 1:44 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 05/22/2021 10:35 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
You have a lot of plans for nukes. Better get them started to be ready
in time. This is the time needed for construction, the permitting
process can be very long too.

How long does it take to build a new power plant?
40-60 months
If we're talking actual construction time of a nuclear power plant, it's
a bit of a long endeavor and depends on the design. Generally, plant
construction can take 40-60 months from the first concrete pour to the
end of construction when fuel is loaded.

Any technology you foresee is going to be online faster? The same crowd
that doesn't want a nuke in their backyard isn't going to want a wind
farm or solar installation either. Good luck at turning every roof in LA
into a solar generating station.


Nothing is faster but when do we start? You really have to look to the
future and plan for it. There is good reason I don't live in CA. They
should be building nukes now if they want to transition to EVs.

They should be building nukes and stop ****ing all that natural gas
against the wall generating electricity with it and heating their houses,
water and food with it. No downsides at all compared with stupid EVs.

Like it or not, they are coming

Not in enough numbers to matter without stupid subsidies.

and we don't have the infrastructure to support it.

So shouldnt be pushing them with subsidies.

Sorry folks, but you will have nukes and windmills in the backyard.

Only nukes and no need for them to be in the backyard.

Or it will be very dark riding your bike to the store.

On Fri, 21 May 2021 08:02:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/21/2021 12:19 AM, wrote:

None of those things are insurmountable. Home chargers are $1000 to
$2000. Not all that much to add to the loan for a $50k truck. It does
not take all night to charge a truck if you do it on a regular basis.
How many miles will the average person drive a day? A couple of hours
and you are topped up.

If those trucks are used like trucks, that 300 mile range is a
fantasy. Hook that 10,000 pound trailer, they brag about, on it and
drive it around all day in the winter with a 5000 watt heater going.
See how you do then. That also assumes they are not using the power
ports as a job site generator.
Maybe I am used to work trucks.
They may think everyone is just going to buy big tires, shine their
truck up, cruise around and try to impress the cow girls.

Look around at the supermarket parking lot. Thousand of trucks never
haul more than two bags of groceries. They never travel more than 20
miles from home. There is a big market for that. Every EV that
replaces a gas or diesel stretches the finite supply of oil.

I know what you are saying but that is just a fad and I expect the
pickup truck thing to go the way of the "van" fad.
I was talking about those who need a truck to haul big boats, RVs or
those who work in the construction/maintenance business.



The only reason the automobile was successful was the fact that there
were already 50,000 gas stations right? It took 100 years to get to
that point and the infrastructure has to change. Airports did not exist
in 1903 but they invented the airplane anyway.

The big difference is gasoline was a waste product from the production
of kerosene, a glut on the dry cleaning market and there was already
an infrastructure for distributing kerosene. Rockefeller was pretty
fast to expand that into a national network of gas stations. Cars were
also a totally new thing so the gasoline infrastructure had plenty of
time to evolve.

These EVs are coming fast and I am not sure if the grid is up to the
task. That is particularly true in places like California and the
Northeast where the grid is already straining.


No the grid is not up to it. Will it ever be if not pushed into it? CA
can't even keep the lights on at night so this is what will push them to
act now, not 40 years when too late.

What is your plan for 50 years from now? How do we fuel ships and
airplanes? How about all those homes heated with NG or oil?

50 years from now?
I don't buy green bananas ;-)

Realistically energy is always going to be an issue and until we start
working on nuke plants that are acceptable to the masses it will
continue to be a problem. The biggest problem right now is
distribution and the people who need new transmission lines the most
are the ones least likely to want one in their back yard.
We transitioned a lot of abandoned rail lines to electric and internet
fiber right of way and now the tree huggers want the rails back.
Nobody is going to be willing to give up land in populated places for
either of those in the quantity that is needed.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/22/2021 2:19 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:


The natural gas lines are already installed. It would be a big
mess changing to electric power. Also irrigation wells and grain drying
use natural gas here. Running miles of power lines would be expensive.
I've never thought about changing a household propane or natural gas
furnace to
electric heat.


You won't have to but your grandkids may. Another option, not yet
feasible is solar and batteries. Maybe in 20 or 50 years it will work.

Nukes work right now and much better than solar and batteries can ever do.

On Fri, 21 May 2021 09:21:25 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/21/2021 8:24 AM, Frank wrote:

I have no problem with EV's and think they have their place.

What I do have a problem with is government mandating them and
subsidizing them.Â* A huge infrastructure change is required and pushing
it will cause a mess.

Also with government, it is usually one size fits all. For example Japan
and California will not allow gas powered cars in the future but driving
distances in Japan may only be a quarter of what is needed in California.

Some people need to travel long distances to do things in states like
Montana.

Then I read that 17% of the people in the US live in apartments and
condos.Â* How will they charge their vehicles except at charging
stations?Â* There are also those in townhouses and those without garages.

I could go on, but you get my point.

I agree, but the answer it not to do nothing. The issue has to be
pushed and consumer demand will give the push.

If there was significant consumer demand, we wouldn't need all the
subsidies ...
.... AKA welfare for the rich.

On Fri, 21 May 2021 06:21:47 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 7:25:07 AM UTC-5, Frank wrote:
On 5/21/2021 12:19 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 20:49:49 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/20/2021 8:21 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 14:57:09 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/20/2021 11:45 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/19/22442777/ford-f-150-lightning-electric-truck-specs-price


This is more sensible than many cars. The article mentions that
charging is a problem. For cars, I use mine for some long distance trip
so yes, it is a problem when you want to do 1200 miles in a day and a
half.

Many trucks though, are used for work in a smaller range and are back at
the shop or home at night so you can just plug it in.

Funny to see the hood open and a bunch of stuff stored in there.

You still have to be near a big charger. That 80 amp charger takes all
night to charge the truck. The 80 amp charger may prompt a service
upgrade at your house.
The 150KW charger is some serious power. It would be over 180 amps at
480v 3p delta. (minimum circuit ampacity is 225a assuming the 150kw is
input power and a PF of 1, not delivered power).

It does make me wonder what happens to the grid if these things really
take off. Night time will certainly not be "off peak" with 200,000,000
EVs plugged in sucking down 10-20 KVA each.



None of those things are insurmountable. Home chargers are $1000 to
$2000. Not all that much to add to the loan for a $50k truck. It does
not take all night to charge a truck if you do it on a regular basis.
How many miles will the average person drive a day? A couple of hours
and you are topped up.

If those trucks are used like trucks, that 300 mile range is a
fantasy. Hook that 10,000 pound trailer, they brag about, on it and
drive it around all day in the winter with a 5000 watt heater going.
See how you do then. That also assumes they are not using the power
ports as a job site generator.
Maybe I am used to work trucks.
They may think everyone is just going to buy big tires, shine their
truck up, cruise around and try to impress the cow girls.


The only reason the automobile was successful was the fact that there
were already 50,000 gas stations right? It took 100 years to get to
that point and the infrastructure has to change. Airports did not exist
in 1903 but they invented the airplane anyway.

The big difference is gasoline was a waste product from the production
of kerosene, a glut on the dry cleaning market and there was already
an infrastructure for distributing kerosene. Rockefeller was pretty
fast to expand that into a national network of gas stations. Cars were
also a totally new thing so the gasoline infrastructure had plenty of
time to evolve.

These EVs are coming fast and I am not sure if the grid is up to the
task. That is particularly true in places like California and the
Northeast where the grid is already straining.

I have no problem with EV's and think they have their place.

What I do have a problem with is government mandating them and
subsidizing them. A huge infrastructure change is required and pushing
it will cause a mess.

Didn't the switch to pickups and SUVs begin because the feds decided to
set minimum mileage standards for regular passenger cars? People didn't like
Pintos and Vegas.

It was also prompted by a tax incentive to buy a vehicle greater than
3 tons. That is gone but the fad lives on.

On Fri, 21 May 2021 09:28:19 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/21/2021 12:38 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 21:49:09 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/20/2021 9:25 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message


Planes and automobiles had massive advantages over what they replaced.

EV dont have even a single advantage over an ICE.
The lower fuel cost per mile doesnt even pay for itself
even if you get the fuel for free from your solar panels.

Of course they do, you are not thinking of the future. Now you do
mention free electricity from solar panels, that is a start. What will
be the situation with gas/oil in the next 10, 20, 50 years? It will be
more expensive and harder and harder to find.

There is a finite amount of oil. When should we come up with
alternatives? Every car or truck that is fueled by other than oil
leaves a bit more to make the transition easier.

There are 1.65 trillion barrels of proven oil reserves in the world as
of 2016. The world has proven reserves equivalent to 46.6 times its
annual consumption levels. This means it has about 47 years of oil left
(at current consumption levels and excluding unproven reserves).

We have been hearing about running out of oil for 50 years and we keep
finding more.
I also wonder if your boss is going to buy and maintain $15,000 worth
of solar panels for every parking spot?
Hope you don't have a cloudy day or you might not make it home.


He'd not need any solar panels. Where I worked I'd be able to go 4 days
on a single charge. OTOH, the company was based on plastics, a by
product of oil so there would be no more business.

We will some day run out of oil. Fortunately, some visionaries are
working on alternatives.

Unfortunately commutes are actually getting longer

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/07/nine-days-road-average-commute-time-reached-new-record-last-year/

Covid may shade that a little since working from home became more
common but that pendulum has swung a number of times in the last
quarter century as stay at home workers start getting less productive
and management opinions flip flop. We were starting a work from home
initiative in 1996 went I retired. It lasted a few years. Then they
pulled people back in.

On Fri, 21 May 2021 14:26:41 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 14:57:09 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/20/2021 11:45 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/19/22442777/ford-f-150-lightning-electric-truck-specs-price


This is more sensible than many cars. The article mentions that
charging is a problem. For cars, I use mine for some long distance trip
so yes, it is a problem when you want to do 1200 miles in a day and a
half.

Many trucks though, are used for work in a smaller range and are back at
the shop or home at night so you can just plug it in.

Funny to see the hood open and a bunch of stuff stored in there.

I'm not a fan of electrics but I really can't see it in a truck. The
batteries subtract from the payload and towing capability.

Four thousand pounds in the back, four hundred in the frunk
and a towing capacity of 10,000 pounds. Suits the vast majority
of truck users just fine.

What is the range then?

On Fri, 21 May 2021 18:56:56 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/21/2021 5:34 PM, Tekkie? wrote:

On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:59:35 -0400, Ed Pawlowski posted for all of us to
digest...


On 5/20/2021 4:34 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/20/2021 11:45 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/19/22442777/ford-f-150-lightning-electric-truck-specs-price



This is more sensible than many cars.Â* The article mentions that
charging is a problem.Â* For cars, I use mine for some long distance
trip so yes, it is a problemÂ* when you want to do 1200 miles in a day
and a half.

Many trucks though, are used for work in a smaller range and are back
at the shop or home at night so you can just plug it in.

Still no point over the conventional version.


Electrics have a way to go but look back at history. People did not
think the automobile would ever replace the horse. Look how pollution
controls evolved.

Battery technology is improving and in a few years my be away from
lithium.

My issue with this is that gov't is forcing us to this. Innovation is not made
by force but with customer demand. Let's leave the climate beliefs out of the
equation. If these trucks start selling like hotcakes then one will see
everyone piling on board. Musk & others have products in the works. Let it
shake out. I believe it will have to move away from lithium.

At present the gov't subsidizes electric vehicles. Let's also leave the
national debt out of the equation. When prices go up because the subsidies end
will they be as popular? They only represent 2% now. IDK.

I would have to upgrade my electrical service for this. That u/g is over $4k
now. I don't have a garage so the car sits in the weather will the charging
station withstand this? I will probably be dust before my turn comes for one.

Around here it's semi-rural (now) but will the old farms and the like be able
to support EV's. IDK. Will farm equipment be EV? In California they want to
shutdown gas stations. How will people refuel? I believe all the vehicle owners
out there will not be purchasing EV's because of budgetary reasons. Gov't
mandates are cruel to ones without the cash.

To go see my BIL was over a 200 mile trip. How would I handle that?

Oh well, the wife is calling dinner so I'll shut up & see ya next time.


Wow, can you come up with more negativity?
To see your brother at 200 miles is not a problem and you can charge you
car when you get there.

From the Verge article
"a 120-volt outlet will trickle 3 miles per hour into the battery",

OK so that's great if you and your BIL can stand each other for 3 days
(67 hours) and you don't need your car when you are there.

I suppose this may also be why the 3 Teslas I saw on Alligator Alley
yesterday were doing around 60 instead of the 80-85 everyone else was
doing.

Just any handy 120v outlet is also not going to do. These things need
a dedicated circuit and until the code changed your garage was likely
to be picked up on a bathroom or even a general lighting circuit.

On Sat, 22 May 2021 09:53:58 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 12:45:59 PM UTC-4, Joey wrote:
"Larry" wrote in message
...
On 5/22/21 1:11 AM, Joey wrote:
Makes a lot more sense to build nukes and heat houses that way.


True but you better have backup heat because a tree branch loaded with ice
can take out electric power for a week.
Not with underground power it cant.

There are probably hundreds of thousands of miles of overhead power
lines in the U.S. I've never lived in a house new enough to have underground
power.

Utilities cannot afford to bury all those lines.

Even in the summer, thunderstorms, half-dead trees and power lines don't
mix either.
I dont heat my house in summer.

Yet there is need for electric power in summer. Unless you wash your
clothing by beating it on rocks in the river. Do you?

Every power outage I've suffered through was caused by some jackass
leftist environmental-wacko tree-huger who just had to plant trees along
the power line right-of-way.
Our power utility cuts those down. You lot are too stupid
to do that ? You get to wear the downsides of that.

For years, our power utility didn't cut them down. Then they started with
a ritzy suburb that had complained about power reliability. It did not
take long for the lawsuits to start.

A few summers ago our utility came through my neighborhood and cut
down a bunch of trees some previous owner of my house was stupid
enough to plant directly under the power lines.

Cindy Hamilton

FPL is very proactive on vegetation in the right of way here. They go
around every spring and whack anything that even gets close to a power
line. People are just used to it.

On Sun, 23 May 2021 03:36:38 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

But you dont get tree branch loaded with ice in the summer very
often at all for some reason. Cant imagine why for the life of me.

We never get ice but a 130 MPH wind can bring down a lot of limbs,
flinging them quite a ways and a gust of 150 can bring down some old
poles.

On Sat, 22 May 2021 11:38:27 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 05/22/2021 10:19 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

With CA forcing people into EVs they have to support them. Same as gas
stations grew over the past 100 years.

CA has pretty much tapped out their hydro potential. They import power
from the PNW but the Seattle granola heads will need to plug their
Teslas in too.

https://www.latimes.com/business/sto...ar-power-plant

Diablo is going off line and I doubt they will ever allow another
nuclear plant to be built in the state.

Solar is producing about 20% of their requirements so they'd better pave
the Mojave with panels. The residential mandate will drive up the cost
of their already unaffordable housing.

Wind power generation is currently less than 10%.

I've got an idea. Bicycles, lots and lots of bicycles.

Maybe you are on to something. Put all of the homeless and illegals on
bicycle generators.

On Sat, 22 May 2021 10:52:24 -0400, Frank "frank wrote:

On 5/21/2021 10:56 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 21 May 2021 21:45:41 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/21/2021 7:53 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message


No the grid is not up to it.* Will it ever be if not pushed into it?
CA can't even keep the lights on at night

So it makes no sense at all to be charging lots of EVs at night.

Wow. Just wow.

He has a point. There is no solar at night and less wind. Having
everyone charging at the same time isn't a good idea either. If we
replace ICEs with electrics we'll need a lot more generating capacity.
Everyone doing it at the same time will make things even worse.


Correct about solar and wind but it is of interest that TVA pumps back
water at night when electric use is low.

https://www.tva.com/about-tva/our-hi...taintop-marvel

It's done at Niagara falls, too, but there are damned few places in
the US where such a thing is possible.