On 5/21/2021 12:19 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 20:49:49 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/20/2021 8:21 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 14:57:09 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/20/2021 11:45 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/19/22442777/ford-f-150-lightning-electric-truck-specs-price


This is more sensible than many cars. The article mentions that
charging is a problem. For cars, I use mine for some long distance trip
so yes, it is a problem when you want to do 1200 miles in a day and a
half.

Many trucks though, are used for work in a smaller range and are back at
the shop or home at night so you can just plug it in.

Funny to see the hood open and a bunch of stuff stored in there.

You still have to be near a big charger. That 80 amp charger takes all
night to charge the truck. The 80 amp charger may prompt a service
upgrade at your house.
The 150KW charger is some serious power. It would be over 180 amps at
480v 3p delta. (minimum circuit ampacity is 225a assuming the 150kw is
input power and a PF of 1, not delivered power).

It does make me wonder what happens to the grid if these things really
take off. Night time will certainly not be "off peak" with 200,000,000
EVs plugged in sucking down 10-20 KVA each.



None of those things are insurmountable. Home chargers are $1000 to
$2000. Not all that much to add to the loan for a $50k truck. It does
not take all night to charge a truck if you do it on a regular basis.
How many miles will the average person drive a day? A couple of hours
and you are topped up.

If those trucks are used like trucks, that 300 mile range is a
fantasy. Hook that 10,000 pound trailer, they brag about, on it and
drive it around all day in the winter with a 5000 watt heater going.
See how you do then. That also assumes they are not using the power
ports as a job site generator.
Maybe I am used to work trucks.
They may think everyone is just going to buy big tires, shine their
truck up, cruise around and try to impress the cow girls.


The only reason the automobile was successful was the fact that there
were already 50,000 gas stations right? It took 100 years to get to
that point and the infrastructure has to change. Airports did not exist
in 1903 but they invented the airplane anyway.

The big difference is gasoline was a waste product from the production
of kerosene, a glut on the dry cleaning market and there was already
an infrastructure for distributing kerosene. Rockefeller was pretty
fast to expand that into a national network of gas stations. Cars were
also a totally new thing so the gasoline infrastructure had plenty of
time to evolve.

These EVs are coming fast and I am not sure if the grid is up to the
task. That is particularly true in places like California and the
Northeast where the grid is already straining.


I have no problem with EV's and think they have their place.

What I do have a problem with is government mandating them and
subsidizing them. A huge infrastructure change is required and pushing
it will cause a mess.

Also with government, it is usually one size fits all. For example Japan
and California will not allow gas powered cars in the future but driving
distances in Japan may only be a quarter of what is needed in California.

Some people need to travel long distances to do things in states like
Montana.

Then I read that 17% of the people in the US live in apartments and
condos. How will they charge their vehicles except at charging
stations? There are also those in townhouses and those without garages.

I could go on, but you get my point.

On 5/21/2021 8:24 AM, Frank wrote:

I have no problem with EV's and think they have their place.

What I do have a problem with is government mandating them and
subsidizing them.Â* A huge infrastructure change is required and pushing
it will cause a mess.

Also with government, it is usually one size fits all. For example Japan
and California will not allow gas powered cars in the future but driving
distances in Japan may only be a quarter of what is needed in California.

Some people need to travel long distances to do things in states like
Montana.

Then I read that 17% of the people in the US live in apartments and
condos.Â* How will they charge their vehicles except at charging
stations?Â* There are also those in townhouses and those without garages.

I could go on, but you get my point.

I agree, but the answer it not to do nothing. The issue has to be
pushed and consumer demand will give the push.

Near me there are a couple of apartment complexes going up. Like 300
units. I don't see any car chargers. If I was the developer I'd put in
a couple somewhere to attract the
EV owners.

You bring up range, one reason I don't have an electric. I've not
tracked it but I do recall some rather prohibitive ranges, like the
Chevy Volt at 32 miles. Now some cars have 300 miles. What does the
future hold?

Look at the auto industry over the past 100+ years. It will take a long
time but range and cost can be improved, batteries are getting better
and new one soon will not use lithium.

You and I won't see it but our grandkids will be dealing with it as oil
becomes scarce and expensive.

I bet Charles Duryea had no idea what his car would evolve to.

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 7:25:07 AM UTC-5, Frank wrote:
On 5/21/2021 12:19 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 20:49:49 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/20/2021 8:21 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 14:57:09 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/20/2021 11:45 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/19/22442777/ford-f-150-lightning-electric-truck-specs-price


This is more sensible than many cars. The article mentions that
charging is a problem. For cars, I use mine for some long distance trip
so yes, it is a problem when you want to do 1200 miles in a day and a
half.

Many trucks though, are used for work in a smaller range and are back at
the shop or home at night so you can just plug it in.

Funny to see the hood open and a bunch of stuff stored in there.

You still have to be near a big charger. That 80 amp charger takes all
night to charge the truck. The 80 amp charger may prompt a service
upgrade at your house.
The 150KW charger is some serious power. It would be over 180 amps at
480v 3p delta. (minimum circuit ampacity is 225a assuming the 150kw is
input power and a PF of 1, not delivered power).

It does make me wonder what happens to the grid if these things really
take off. Night time will certainly not be "off peak" with 200,000,000
EVs plugged in sucking down 10-20 KVA each.



None of those things are insurmountable. Home chargers are $1000 to
$2000. Not all that much to add to the loan for a $50k truck. It does
not take all night to charge a truck if you do it on a regular basis.
How many miles will the average person drive a day? A couple of hours
and you are topped up.

If those trucks are used like trucks, that 300 mile range is a
fantasy. Hook that 10,000 pound trailer, they brag about, on it and
drive it around all day in the winter with a 5000 watt heater going.
See how you do then. That also assumes they are not using the power
ports as a job site generator.
Maybe I am used to work trucks.
They may think everyone is just going to buy big tires, shine their
truck up, cruise around and try to impress the cow girls.


The only reason the automobile was successful was the fact that there
were already 50,000 gas stations right? It took 100 years to get to
that point and the infrastructure has to change. Airports did not exist
in 1903 but they invented the airplane anyway.

The big difference is gasoline was a waste product from the production
of kerosene, a glut on the dry cleaning market and there was already
an infrastructure for distributing kerosene. Rockefeller was pretty
fast to expand that into a national network of gas stations. Cars were
also a totally new thing so the gasoline infrastructure had plenty of
time to evolve.

These EVs are coming fast and I am not sure if the grid is up to the
task. That is particularly true in places like California and the
Northeast where the grid is already straining.

I have no problem with EV's and think they have their place.

What I do have a problem with is government mandating them and
subsidizing them. A huge infrastructure change is required and pushing
it will cause a mess.

Didn't the switch to pickups and SUVs begin because the feds decided to
set minimum mileage standards for regular passenger cars? People didn't like
Pintos and Vegas.

Also with government, it is usually one size fits all. For example Japan
and California will not allow gas powered cars in the future but driving
distances in Japan may only be a quarter of what is needed in California.

Some people need to travel long distances to do things in states like
Montana.

Then I read that 17% of the people in the US live in apartments and
condos. How will they charge their vehicles except at charging
stations? There are also those in townhouses and those without garages.

I could go on, but you get my point.

On 5/21/2021 12:38 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 21:49:09 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/20/2021 9:25 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message


Planes and automobiles had massive advantages over what they replaced.

EV dont have even a single advantage over an ICE.
The lower fuel cost per mile doesnt even pay for itself
even if you get the fuel for free from your solar panels.

Of course they do, you are not thinking of the future. Now you do
mention free electricity from solar panels, that is a start. What will
be the situation with gas/oil in the next 10, 20, 50 years? It will be
more expensive and harder and harder to find.

There is a finite amount of oil. When should we come up with
alternatives? Every car or truck that is fueled by other than oil
leaves a bit more to make the transition easier.

There are 1.65 trillion barrels of proven oil reserves in the world as
of 2016. The world has proven reserves equivalent to 46.6 times its
annual consumption levels. This means it has about 47 years of oil left
(at current consumption levels and excluding unproven reserves).

We have been hearing about running out of oil for 50 years and we keep
finding more.
I also wonder if your boss is going to buy and maintain $15,000 worth
of solar panels for every parking spot?
Hope you don't have a cloudy day or you might not make it home.


He'd not need any solar panels. Where I worked I'd be able to go 4 days
on a single charge. OTOH, the company was based on plastics, a by
product of oil so there would be no more business.

We will some day run out of oil. Fortunately, some visionaries are
working on alternatives.

On 05/21/2021 06:05 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/21/2021 12:56 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 05/20/2021 07:49 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Now you do mention free electricity from solar panels, that is a start.

TANSTAAFL

True, but not everyone can drill an oil well when the gas stations run out.

I haven't seen the sun since Sunday. It's even worse in the winter. If
the sun does appear, it's low on the horizon. That's a big battery bank
to smooth it out.

I've used solar at my hovel in AZ since '88.

https://www.duke-energy.com/our-comp...ergy/ajo-solar

I'm 10 miles south of that farm, so it's a favorable location. Still
there were rainy winters when I had to be very careful of consumption. I
wonder how many megawatts Duke is producing during those periods?
Compared to Palo Verde it's a hobby operation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_V...rating_Station

On 05/21/2021 07:21 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Look at the auto industry over the past 100+ years. It will take a long
time but range and cost can be improved, batteries are getting better
and new one soon will not use lithium.

https://greenauthority.com/10-altern...-batteries-79/

https://www.power-technology.com/fea...-alternatives/

Which new one? Lithium-sulfur is the next feasible one on the horizon.

On 05/21/2021 07:21 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Didn't the switch to pickups and SUVs begin because the feds decided to
set minimum mileage standards for regular passenger cars? People didn't like
Pintos and Vegas.

SUV's definitely gamed the system. The traditional station wagon would
fall under the automobile fleet average calculation while a SUV is a
light truck.

The line is blurred but I'm sure the manufacturers are adept at staying
on the right side.

On 05/21/2021 07:28 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


We will some day run out of oil. Fortunately, some visionaries are
working on alternatives.

My money is on running out of civilization first. Horses need grass to
run, not oil.

Ed Pawlowski writes:
On 5/20/2021 4:34 PM, Joey wrote:


Electrics have a way to go but look back at history. People did not
think the automobile would ever replace the horse. Look how pollution
controls evolved.

Battery technology is improving and in a few years my be away from
lithium.

A few years? Try next year. Production LI-S (Lithium-Sulfer)
batteries will be coming off the production line late this year
for certain applications (Urban Air Mobility) with 2x the
energy density of Li-ion.

Within five, you'll likely see Al-ion batteries with 5x the
capacity.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-21108-4

writes:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 14:57:09 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/20/2021 11:45 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/19/22442777/ford-f-150-lightning-electric-truck-specs-price


This is more sensible than many cars. The article mentions that
charging is a problem. For cars, I use mine for some long distance trip
so yes, it is a problem when you want to do 1200 miles in a day and a
half.

Many trucks though, are used for work in a smaller range and are back at
the shop or home at night so you can just plug it in.

Funny to see the hood open and a bunch of stuff stored in there.

I'm not a fan of electrics but I really can't see it in a truck. The
batteries subtract from the payload and towing capability.

Four thousand pounds in the back, four hundred in the frunk
and a towing capacity of 10,000 pounds. Suits the vast majority
of truck users just fine.

On 5/21/2021 9:57 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 05/21/2021 07:21 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Look at the auto industry over the past 100+ years.Â* It will take a long
time but range and cost can be improved, batteries are getting better
and new one soon will not use lithium.

https://greenauthority.com/10-altern...-batteries-79/

https://www.power-technology.com/fea...-alternatives/

Which new one? Lithium-sulfur is the next feasible one on the horizon.

Aluminum is in the works too

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alumin...%93air_battery

Could be something else in 5 or 10 years too. There is incentive to do
better.

On Fri, 21 May 2021 08:03:47 -0600, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


We will some day run out of oil. Fortunately, some visionaries are
working on alternatives.

My money is on running out of civilization first. Horses need grass to
run, not oil.

Senile blabbermouths like you need big words to run on, as you demonstrated
again, senile gossip.

On Fri, 21 May 2021 07:48:49 -0600, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


True, but not everyone can drill an oil well when the gas stations run out.

I haven't seen the sun since Sunday.

That's curious! I was just about to ask you when was the last time you saw
the sun. Thanks for letting us know!

On Fri, 21 May 2021 08:02:11 -0600, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


SUV's definitely gamed the system. The traditional station wagon would
fall under the automobile fleet average calculation while a SUV is a
light truck.

The line is blurred

LOL! You are all words, eh, senile asshole?

On Fri, 21 May 2021 02:05:29 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 21 May 2021 00:02:00 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 21 May 2021 02:21:02 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
wrote:

In writes:

[snip]

I'm not a fan of electrics but I really can't see it in a truck. The
batteries subtract from the payload and towing capability.

otoh, better torque and horsepower matching with
an electric motor vs. fossil fuel engines.

That's pretty much irrelevant if the suspension has to support it.
BTW, more torque, not more HP.

They can still blaze away from a stoplight.

....and when the insurance company downloads the black box his
insurance rates triple. Works for me.

On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:59:35 -0400, Ed Pawlowski posted for all of us to
digest...


On 5/20/2021 4:34 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/20/2021 11:45 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/19/22442777/ford-f-150-lightning-electric-truck-specs-price



This is more sensible than many cars.* The article mentions that
charging is a problem.* For cars, I use mine for some long distance
trip so yes, it is a problem* when you want to do 1200 miles in a day
and a half.

Many trucks though, are used for work in a smaller range and are back
at the shop or home at night so you can just plug it in.

Still no point over the conventional version.


Electrics have a way to go but look back at history. People did not
think the automobile would ever replace the horse. Look how pollution
controls evolved.

Battery technology is improving and in a few years my be away from
lithium.

My issue with this is that gov't is forcing us to this. Innovation is not made
by force but with customer demand. Let's leave the climate beliefs out of the
equation. If these trucks start selling like hotcakes then one will see
everyone piling on board. Musk & others have products in the works. Let it
shake out. I believe it will have to move away from lithium.

At present the gov't subsidizes electric vehicles. Let's also leave the
national debt out of the equation. When prices go up because the subsidies end
will they be as popular? They only represent 2% now. IDK.

I would have to upgrade my electrical service for this. That u/g is over $4k
now. I don't have a garage so the car sits in the weather will the charging
station withstand this? I will probably be dust before my turn comes for one.

Around here it's semi-rural (now) but will the old farms and the like be able
to support EV's. IDK. Will farm equipment be EV? In California they want to
shutdown gas stations. How will people refuel? I believe all the vehicle owners
out there will not be purchasing EV's because of budgetary reasons. Gov't
mandates are cruel to ones without the cash.

To go see my BIL was over a 200 mile trip. How would I handle that?

Oh well, the wife is calling dinner so I'll shut up & see ya next time.

--
Tekkie

On 5/21/2021 5:34 PM, Tekkie� wrote:

On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:59:35 -0400, Ed Pawlowski posted for all of us to
digest...


On 5/20/2021 4:34 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/20/2021 11:45 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/19/22442777/ford-f-150-lightning-electric-truck-specs-price



This is more sensible than many cars.Â* The article mentions that
charging is a problem.Â* For cars, I use mine for some long distance
trip so yes, it is a problemÂ* when you want to do 1200 miles in a day
and a half.

Many trucks though, are used for work in a smaller range and are back
at the shop or home at night so you can just plug it in.

Still no point over the conventional version.


Electrics have a way to go but look back at history. People did not
think the automobile would ever replace the horse. Look how pollution
controls evolved.

Battery technology is improving and in a few years my be away from
lithium.

My issue with this is that gov't is forcing us to this. Innovation is not made
by force but with customer demand. Let's leave the climate beliefs out of the
equation. If these trucks start selling like hotcakes then one will see
everyone piling on board. Musk & others have products in the works. Let it
shake out. I believe it will have to move away from lithium.

At present the gov't subsidizes electric vehicles. Let's also leave the
national debt out of the equation. When prices go up because the subsidies end
will they be as popular? They only represent 2% now. IDK.

I would have to upgrade my electrical service for this. That u/g is over $4k
now. I don't have a garage so the car sits in the weather will the charging
station withstand this? I will probably be dust before my turn comes for one.

Around here it's semi-rural (now) but will the old farms and the like be able
to support EV's. IDK. Will farm equipment be EV? In California they want to
shutdown gas stations. How will people refuel? I believe all the vehicle owners
out there will not be purchasing EV's because of budgetary reasons. Gov't
mandates are cruel to ones without the cash.

To go see my BIL was over a 200 mile trip. How would I handle that?

Oh well, the wife is calling dinner so I'll shut up & see ya next time.


Wow, can you come up with more negativity?
To see your brother at 200 miles is not a problem and you can charge you
car when you get there.

You don't have to upgrade your electric service if you are able to plug
in long enough. My daughter had a loaner that was electric and she just
used an extension cord. That said, if the old farm has 120 service, yes,
you can plug in a car but it takes longer.

Yes, you can do it outside. Nothing new, I plugged in my diesel in
winter 35 years ago so I image they have the technology.

Agree with government subsidy. It was OK initially as something has to
be done to eventually get away from oil so it was a kick start but has
to go away.

As for innovation by customer demand, it is there, it is growing. One
big thing is to get away from lithium and it is in the works. Better to
tinker with that now than 40 years from now when oil is scarce and very
expensive.

Government mandates can be crazy, can be good. Where would we be on
seat belts and air bags if not mandated? It has been well proven they
save lives. How about cleaner air from unleaded gas?

You want to leave climate beliefs out of the equation but change is real
Time to do something about it.

The more ICE cars off the road the longer oil will exist to supply farm
equipment that is not electrified. What is the future of air travel if
oil is gone? Do we really have to **** away oil on cruise ships? How
much fuel does the military need? Once oil is scarce they will get it
before you and I.

I'm surprised at how closed minded people are on the subject. EVs do
not solve the world problem but we really have to look at the future and
do something about it. Clean air, clean water, clean energy are needed.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/21/2021 12:32 AM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/20/2021 11:22 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

Sorry you are so shortsighted.

More mindless bull****.

That's the best you can come up with?

Clearly that **** is the best you can come up with.

No, I can see the need for radical change in the future.

Doesnt mean it makes any sense to buy a stupid EV
with all its downsides today. Like I said and you
ignored, when there is a problem with the price of
gas or natural gas THEN is the time to decide if the
massive downsides with EVs are worth getting stuck
with because fools have been proclaiming that we
will have run out of oil for more than half a ****ing
century now and the reality is that we arent even
close to seeing that with oil and natural gas.

When running out of oil was brought up, you countered that natural gas
will replace it.

No I didnt, I rubbed your stupid nose in the
fact that if the price of gasoline does become
a real problem, natural gas will still be available.

NG will run out too

The sun will go out sometime too
but not soon enough to matter.

so changing cars to it depletes it faster.

Not if we stop ****ing it against the wall in gas
peakers which are needed to fix one of the major
downsides with stupid wind farms and solar and
we have enough of a clue to use nukes instead.

And use nukes to synthesise liquid and gas for
ICEs once that makes economic sense and ****
off the stupid EVs which cant even do proper
climate control for the occupants of the vehicle.

There are hundreds of thousands of homes that heat and cook with NG. What
do they do?

Heat and cook with electricity from nukes.

I do that already, but not from nukes.

When oil is gone what do we fuel airplanes with?

Synthetic fuel produced using the energy from nukes.

You don't see past today.

Another bare faced lie. I already rubbed
your stupid nose in using nukes in future.

Look at the evolution of the automobile and how long it took to become
safe and fuel efficient.

Irrelevant to whether it makes any sense to be buy an EV now.

It will take a long time for electrics to become easily fuelled with
recyleable batteries and a way to charge them

When that is possible. then will be the time to buy one if that happens.

What is your plan? What to yoy see in 40 years?

See above, nukes and ICEs,

On 5/21/2021 6:56 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/21/2021 5:34 PM, Tekkie� wrote:

On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:59:35 -0400, Ed Pawlowski posted for all of us to
digest...


On 5/20/2021 4:34 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/20/2021 11:45 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/19/22442777/ford-f-150-lightning-electric-truck-specs-price




This is more sensible than many cars.Â* The article mentions that
charging is a problem.Â* For cars, I use mine for some long distance
trip so yes, it is a problemÂ* when you want to do 1200 miles in a day
and a half.

Many trucks though, are used for work in a smaller range and are back
at the shop or home at night so you can just plug it in.

Still no point over the conventional version.


Electrics have a way to go but look back at history.Â* People did not
think the automobile would ever replace the horse.Â* Look how pollution
controls evolved.

Battery technology is improving and in a few years my be away from
lithium.

My issue with this is that gov't is forcing us to this. Innovation is
not made
by force but with customer demand. Let's leave the climate beliefs out
of the
equation. If these trucks start selling like hotcakes then one will see
everyone piling on board. Musk & others have products in the works.
Let it
shake out. I believe it will have to move away from lithium.

At present the gov't subsidizes electric vehicles. Let's also leave the
national debt out of the equation. When prices go up because the
subsidies end
will they be as popular? They only represent 2% now. IDK.

I would have to upgrade my electrical service for this. That u/g is
over $4k
now. I don't have a garage so the car sits in the weather will the
charging
station withstand this? I will probably be dust before my turn comes
for one.

Around here it's semi-rural (now) but will the old farms and the like
be able
to support EV's. IDK. Will farm equipment be EV? In California they
want to
shutdown gas stations. How will people refuel? I believe all the
vehicle owners
out there will not be purchasing EV's because of budgetary reasons. Gov't
mandates are cruel to ones without the cash.

To go see my BIL was over a 200 mile trip. How would I handle that?

Oh well, the wife is calling dinner so I'll shut up & see ya next time.


Wow, can you come up with more negativity?
To see your brother at 200 miles is not a problem and you can charge you
car when you get there.

You don't have to upgrade your electric service if you are able to plug
in long enough.Â* My daughter had a loaner that was electric and she just
used an extension cord. That said, if the old farm has 120 service, yes,
you can plug in a car but it takes longer.

Yes, you can do it outside.Â* Nothing new, I plugged in my diesel in
winter 35 years ago so I image they have the technology.

Agree with government subsidy.Â* It was OK initially as something has to
be done to eventually get away from oil so it was a kick start but has
to go away.

As for innovation by customer demand, it is there, it is growing.Â* One
big thing is to get away from lithium and it is in the works.Â* Better to
tinker with that now than 40 years from now when oil is scarce and very
expensive.

Government mandates can be crazy, can be good.Â* Where would we be on
seat belts and air bags if not mandated?Â* It has been well proven they
save lives.Â* How about cleaner air from unleaded gas?

You want to leave climate beliefs out of the equation but change is real
Â*Time to do something about it.

The more ICE cars off the road the longer oil will exist to supply farm
equipment that is not electrified.Â* What is the future of air travel if
oil is gone?Â* Do we really have to **** away oil on cruise ships?Â* How
much fuel does the military need?Â* Once oil is scarce they will get it
before you and I.

I'm surprised at how closed minded people are on the subject.Â* EVs do
not solve the world problem but we really have to look at the future and
do something about it.Â* Clean air, clean water, clean energy are needed.

He essentially has given my arguments.

If we had listened to others 50 years ago we would not have any oil
today. Besides we have the chemistry to convert coal to petroleum.

You want clean air, clean water and clean energy you go nuclear. Those
opposed to burning gas, oil or coal also oppose nuclear. Isn't that odd.

Sure climate is changing. It was changing before man came and has been
changing since. What we do may affect it slightly but is squat compared
to Mother Nature.

Let science and the market decide - not the big government control freaks.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/21/2021 12:19 AM, wrote:

None of those things are insurmountable. Home chargers are $1000 to
$2000. Not all that much to add to the loan for a $50k truck. It does
not take all night to charge a truck if you do it on a regular basis.
How many miles will the average person drive a day? A couple of hours
and you are topped up.

If those trucks are used like trucks, that 300 mile range is a
fantasy. Hook that 10,000 pound trailer, they brag about, on it and
drive it around all day in the winter with a 5000 watt heater going.
See how you do then. That also assumes they are not using the power
ports as a job site generator.
Maybe I am used to work trucks.
They may think everyone is just going to buy big tires, shine their
truck up, cruise around and try to impress the cow girls.

Look around at the supermarket parking lot. Thousand of trucks never haul
more than two bags of groceries. They never travel more than 20 miles
from home. There is a big market for that. Every EV that replaces a gas
or diesel stretches the finite supply of oil.



The only reason the automobile was successful was the fact that there
were already 50,000 gas stations right? It took 100 years to get to
that point and the infrastructure has to change. Airports did not exist
in 1903 but they invented the airplane anyway.

The big difference is gasoline was a waste product from the production
of kerosene, a glut on the dry cleaning market and there was already
an infrastructure for distributing kerosene. Rockefeller was pretty
fast to expand that into a national network of gas stations. Cars were
also a totally new thing so the gasoline infrastructure had plenty of
time to evolve.

These EVs are coming fast and I am not sure if the grid is up to the
task. That is particularly true in places like California and the
Northeast where the grid is already straining.

No the grid is not up to it. Will it ever be if not pushed into it? CA
can't even keep the lights on at night

So it makes no sense at all to be charging lots of EVs at night.

so this is what will push them to act now,

Bull**** it will.

not 40 years when too late.

Its never too late to do that.

What is your plan for 50 years from now?

Nukes.

How do we fuel ships and airplanes?

Synthesise that fuel with the energy from nukes
if it has run out by then. It wont, you watch.

How about all those homes heated with NG or oil?

Use electricity from nukes and avoid all that CO2 added
to the atmosphere. Much more viable than stupid EVs.

On 05/21/2021 09:23 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/21/2021 9:57 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 05/21/2021 07:21 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Look at the auto industry over the past 100+ years. It will take a long
time but range and cost can be improved, batteries are getting better
and new one soon will not use lithium.

https://greenauthority.com/10-altern...-batteries-79/

https://www.power-technology.com/fea...-alternatives/

Which new one? Lithium-sulfur is the next feasible one on the horizon.

Aluminum is in the works too

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alumin...%93air_battery

Could be something else in 5 or 10 years too. There is incentive to do
better.

Did you miss the primary cell part?

On 5/21/2021 7:46 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message


No, I can see the need for radical change in the future.

Doesnt mean it makes any sense to buy a stupid EV
with all its downsides today. Like I said and you
ignored, when there is a problem with the price of
gas or natural gas THEN is the time to decide if the
massive downsides with EVs are worth getting stuck
with because fools have been proclaiming that we
will have run out of oil for more than half a ****ing
century now and the reality is that we arent even
close to seeing that with oil and natural gas.

EV is not the best answer for most people right now but this is the time
to start development and building infrastructure for the future. It
took about 100 years to get where we are now and much needs to be done.
Foolish to wait to last minute.




When running out of oil was brought up, you countered that natural gas
will replace it.

No I didnt, I rubbed your stupid nose in the
fact that if the price of gasoline does become
a real problem, natural gas will still be available.

Bull****, it is finite too. If we convert ICE cars to NG it will run
out faster and leave power plant,m home heating, cooking with none.




There are hundreds of thousands of homes that heat and cook with NG.
What do they do?

Heat and cook with electricity from nukes.

I do that already, but not from nukes.

When oil is gone what do we fuel airplanes with?

Synthetic fuel produced using the energy from nukes.

You don't see past today.

Another bare faced lie. I already rubbed
your stupid nose in using nukes in future.

Nukes will help but are not the answer to everything Meantime, you are
just showing your ignorance with your snide remarks. Sad you have to
resort to personal attacks to make your points.



See above, nukes and ICEs,

That's a laugh.

On 5/21/2021 7:53 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message


No the grid is not up to it.Â* Will it ever be if not pushed into it?
CA can't even keep the lights on at night

So it makes no sense at all to be charging lots of EVs at night.

Wow. Just wow.

On Fri, 21 May 2021 21:45:41 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/21/2021 7:53 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message


No the grid is not up to it.* Will it ever be if not pushed into it?
CA can't even keep the lights on at night

So it makes no sense at all to be charging lots of EVs at night.

Wow. Just wow.

He has a point. There is no solar at night and less wind. Having
everyone charging at the same time isn't a good idea either. If we
replace ICEs with electrics we'll need a lot more generating capacity.
Everyone doing it at the same time will make things even worse.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/21/2021 8:24 AM, Frank wrote:

I have no problem with EV's and think they have their place.

What I do have a problem with is government mandating them and
subsidizing them. A huge infrastructure change is required and pushing
it will cause a mess.

Also with government, it is usually one size fits all. For example Japan
and California will not allow gas powered cars in the future but driving
distances in Japan may only be a quarter of what is needed in California.

Some people need to travel long distances to do things in states like
Montana.

Then I read that 17% of the people in the US live in apartments and
condos. How will they charge their vehicles except at charging stations?
There are also those in townhouses and those without garages.

I could go on, but you get my point.

I agree, but the answer it not to do nothing.

No one that matters is suggesting anything of the sort.

The issue has to be pushed

It is stupid to do it that way.

and consumer demand will give the push.

Bet it doesnt.

Near me there are a couple of apartment complexes going up. Like 300
units. I don't see any car chargers. If I was the developer I'd put in a
couple somewhere to attract the EV owners.

I'd let them install and pay for them myself if they want that.

You bring up range, one reason I don't have an electric. I've not tracked
it but I do recall some rather prohibitive ranges, like the Chevy Volt at
32 miles. Now some cars have 300 miles. What does the future hold?

Only stupid prices for the long ranges and fast charging
****ing the life of the already stupidly expensive battery.

Look at the auto industry over the past 100+ years. It will take a long
time but range and cost can be improved,

But will still be a lot worse than an ICE.

batteries are getting better

But will still be a stupid price for the sort of range
any ICE can do. In spades with refuel time.

and new one soon will not use lithium.

That remains to be seen.

You and I won't see it but our grandkids will be dealing with it as oil
becomes scarce and expensive.

Much more likely that countries will get a clue
and use nukes to heat houses etc without any
of the downsides that stupid EVs have.

I bet Charles Duryea had no idea what his car would evolve to.

Doesnt mean that EVs will do anything like that
given that all but batteries are well evolved now.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/21/2021 12:38 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 21:49:09 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/20/2021 9:25 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message


Planes and automobiles had massive advantages over what they replaced.

EV dont have even a single advantage over an ICE.
The lower fuel cost per mile doesnt even pay for itself
even if you get the fuel for free from your solar panels.

Of course they do, you are not thinking of the future. Now you do
mention free electricity from solar panels, that is a start. What will
be the situation with gas/oil in the next 10, 20, 50 years? It will be
more expensive and harder and harder to find.

There is a finite amount of oil. When should we come up with
alternatives? Every car or truck that is fueled by other than oil
leaves a bit more to make the transition easier.

There are 1.65 trillion barrels of proven oil reserves in the world as
of 2016. The world has proven reserves equivalent to 46.6 times its
annual consumption levels. This means it has about 47 years of oil left
(at current consumption levels and excluding unproven reserves).

We have been hearing about running out of oil for 50 years and we keep
finding more.
I also wonder if your boss is going to buy and maintain $15,000 worth
of solar panels for every parking spot?
Hope you don't have a cloudy day or you might not make it home.


He'd not need any solar panels. Where I worked I'd be able to go 4 days
on a single charge. OTOH, the company was based on plastics, a by product
of oil so there would be no more business.

Wrong, the plastics will continue and come from coal
when the oil is too expensive to be used for that.

We will some day run out of oil.

Yes.

Fortunately, some visionaries are working on alternatives.

We have had those for more than half a century now, nukes.

"rbowman" wrote in message
...
On 05/21/2021 07:28 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


We will some day run out of oil. Fortunately, some visionaries are
working on alternatives.

My money is on running out of civilization first.

Not a chance.

Horses need grass to run, not oil.

Nukes dont.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/21/2021 5:34 PM, Tekkie� wrote:

On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:59:35 -0400, Ed Pawlowski posted for all of us to
digest...


On 5/20/2021 4:34 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/20/2021 11:45 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/19/22442777/ford-f-150-lightning-electric-truck-specs-price



This is more sensible than many cars. The article mentions that
charging is a problem. For cars, I use mine for some long distance
trip so yes, it is a problem when you want to do 1200 miles in a day
and a half.

Many trucks though, are used for work in a smaller range and are back
at the shop or home at night so you can just plug it in.

Still no point over the conventional version.


Electrics have a way to go but look back at history. People did not
think the automobile would ever replace the horse. Look how pollution
controls evolved.

Battery technology is improving and in a few years my be away from
lithium.

My issue with this is that gov't is forcing us to this. Innovation is not
made
by force but with customer demand. Let's leave the climate beliefs out of
the
equation. If these trucks start selling like hotcakes then one will see
everyone piling on board. Musk & others have products in the works. Let
it
shake out. I believe it will have to move away from lithium.

At present the gov't subsidizes electric vehicles. Let's also leave the
national debt out of the equation. When prices go up because the
subsidies end
will they be as popular? They only represent 2% now. IDK.

I would have to upgrade my electrical service for this. That u/g is over
$4k
now. I don't have a garage so the car sits in the weather will the
charging
station withstand this? I will probably be dust before my turn comes for
one.

Around here it's semi-rural (now) but will the old farms and the like be
able
to support EV's. IDK. Will farm equipment be EV? In California they want
to
shutdown gas stations. How will people refuel? I believe all the vehicle
owners
out there will not be purchasing EV's because of budgetary reasons. Gov't
mandates are cruel to ones without the cash.

To go see my BIL was over a 200 mile trip. How would I handle that?

Oh well, the wife is calling dinner so I'll shut up & see ya next time.


Wow, can you come up with more negativity?
To see your brother at 200 miles is not a problem and you can charge you
car when you get there.

You don't have to upgrade your electric service if you are able to plug in
long enough. My daughter had a loaner that was electric and she just used
an extension cord. That said, if the old farm has 120 service, yes, you
can plug in a car but it takes longer.

Yes, you can do it outside. Nothing new, I plugged in my diesel in winter
35 years ago so I image they have the technology.

Agree with government subsidy. It was OK initially as something has to be
done to eventually get away from oil so it was a kick start but has to go
away.

As for innovation by customer demand, it is there, it is growing. One big
thing is to get away from lithium and it is in the works. Better to
tinker with that now than 40 years from now when oil is scarce and very
expensive.

They claimed that 40 years ago and it didnt happen.

Government mandates can be crazy, can be good. Where would we be on seat
belts and air bags if not mandated? It has been well proven they save
lives. How about cleaner air from unleaded gas?

You want to leave climate beliefs out of the equation but change is real
Time to do something about it.

Yep, stop ****ing natural gas against the wall heating
houses and use nukes to do that with electricity.

That doesnt have any of the massive downsides that EVs have.

The more ICE cars off the road the longer oil will exist to supply farm
equipment that is not electrified.

Much better to change the way we heat houses.

What is the future of air travel if oil is gone?

It wont ever be gone, at worst we synthesise it using power from nukes.

Do we really have to **** away oil on cruise ships?

Nope, nukes for ships work fine.

How much fuel does the military need? Once oil is scarce they will get it
before you and I.

Unlikely that the USA will keep ****ing all that money
against the wall on the military at the current rate.

I'm surprised at how closed minded people are on the subject.

You are just as closed minded yourself.

EVs do not solve the world problem but we really have to look at the
future and do something about it.

Yep, buy building more nukes.

Clean air, clean water, clean energy are needed.

And the best way to do that is with nukes, not stupid EVs.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/21/2021 7:46 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message


No, I can see the need for radical change in the future.

Doesnt mean it makes any sense to buy a stupid EV
with all its downsides today. Like I said and you
ignored, when there is a problem with the price of
gas or natural gas THEN is the time to decide if the
massive downsides with EVs are worth getting stuck
with because fools have been proclaiming that we
will have run out of oil for more than half a ****ing
century now and the reality is that we arent even
close to seeing that with oil and natural gas.

EV is not the best answer for most people right now

And wont ever be.

but this is the time to start development and building infrastructure for
the future.

Makes a lot more sense to build nukes and heat houses that way.

It took about 100 years to get where we are now

Not with nukes it didnt.

and much needs to be done.

Nope, we know how to do viable nukes
and have known that for a long time now.

Foolish to wait to last minute.

Yes, with building new nukes.

When running out of oil was brought up, you countered that natural gas
will replace it.

No I didnt, I rubbed your stupid nose in the
fact that if the price of gasoline does become
a real problem, natural gas will still be available.

Bull****, it is finite too.

Not when you can synthesise it with the energy from nukes.

If we convert ICE cars to NG it will run out faster and leave power
plant,m home heating, cooking with none.

If the electricity from nukes is used to for home heating
and cooking and we no longer **** natural gas against
the wall using it to generate electricity, it will last much
longer than changing to stupid EVs

There are hundreds of thousands of homes that heat and cook with NG.
What do they do?

Heat and cook with electricity from nukes.

I do that already, but not from nukes.

When oil is gone what do we fuel airplanes with?

Synthetic fuel produced using the energy from nukes.

You don't see past today.

Another bare faced lie. I already rubbed
your stupid nose in using nukes in future.

Nukes will help

In fact help far more than stupid EVs can ever to
without the massive downsides that EVs have.

but are not the answer to everything

No one ever said they were. Having
fun thrashing that straw man ?

EVs arent either.

Meantime, you are just showing your ignorance with your snide remarks.

You havent demonstrated any ignorance.

Sad you have to resort to personal attacks to make your points.

Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh ?

See above, nukes and ICEs,

That's a laugh.

You always have been that, a laughing stock.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 5/21/2021 7:53 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message


No the grid is not up to it. Will it ever be if not pushed into it? CA
can't even keep the lights on at night

So it makes no sense at all to be charging lots of EVs at night.

Wow. Just wow.

What a stunning line in rational argument you have there.

On Sat, 22 May 2021 14:56:29 +1000, Joey, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread


--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

On Sat, 22 May 2021 15:11:37 +1000, Joey, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

On Sat, 22 May 2021 13:50:49 +1000, Joey, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile pest's latest troll**** unread

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On Sat, 22 May 2021 13:47:21 +1000, Joey, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

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around around while you talk it to it.
Poor sad git who has to resort to Usenet and electronic devices for any
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trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:


FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

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On 5/22/21 1:11 AM, Joey wrote:
Makes a lot more sense to build nukes and heat houses that way.


True but you better have backup heat because a tree branch loaded with ice can take out electric power for a week.

Even in the summer, thunderstorms, half-dead trees and power lines don't mix either.


Every power outage I've suffered through was caused by some jackass leftist environmental-wacko tree-huger who just had to plant trees along the power line right-of-way.

On 5/21/2021 10:56 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 21 May 2021 21:45:41 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/21/2021 7:53 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message


No the grid is not up to it.Â* Will it ever be if not pushed into it?
CA can't even keep the lights on at night

So it makes no sense at all to be charging lots of EVs at night.

Wow. Just wow.

He has a point. There is no solar at night and less wind. Having
everyone charging at the same time isn't a good idea either. If we
replace ICEs with electrics we'll need a lot more generating capacity.
Everyone doing it at the same time will make things even worse.


Correct about solar and wind but it is of interest that TVA pumps back
water at night when electric use is low.

https://www.tva.com/about-tva/our-hi...taintop-marvel

On 5/21/2021 10:56 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 21 May 2021 21:45:41 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/21/2021 7:53 PM, Joey wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message


No the grid is not up to it.Â* Will it ever be if not pushed into it?
CA can't even keep the lights on at night

So it makes no sense at all to be charging lots of EVs at night.

Wow. Just wow.

He has a point. There is no solar at night and less wind. Having
everyone charging at the same time isn't a good idea either. If we
replace ICEs with electrics we'll need a lot more generating capacity.
Everyone doing it at the same time will make things even worse.


No simple answer but we need more non fossil fueled power plants. Once
demand is there, supply can and will be built. The worst thing to do is
nothing.

With CA forcing people into EVs they have to support them. Same as gas
stations grew over the past 100 years.

On 5/22/2021 12:56 AM, Joey wrote:


Yep, stop ****ing natural gas against the wall heating
houses and use nukes to do that with electricity.


It wont ever be gone, at worst we synthesise it using power from nukes.


Nope, nukes for ships work fine.


Yep, buy building more nukes.


And the best way to do that is with nukes, not stupid EVs.

You have a lot of plans for nukes. Better get them started to be ready
in time. This is the time needed for construction, the permitting
process can be very long too.

How long does it take to build a new power plant?
40-60 months
If we're talking actual construction time of a nuclear power plant, it's
a bit of a long endeavor and depends on the design. Generally, plant
construction can take 40-60 months from the first concrete pour to the
end of construction when fuel is loaded.