My son is doing some work on a condo in Las Vegas. The fact
that it's a condo in a condo complex may be a clue as to how
the ceiling was constructed. (commercial codes vs. residential,
perhaps.)

The current task is to replace an old florescent fixture in the
kitchen with a much heavier hanging fixture. He removed the
old fixture to see what kind of box was used and didn't see one.
The cloth covered cable was coming right through the drywall.
He cut a hole in the drywall to see what was under it and found
this:

https://i.imgur.com/Xhwixdh.jpg

Some details, according to how my son explained the situation to
me:

The plastic tube on the cable is a piece of the old fixture, so ignore it.

He doesn't know exactly when the condo was built (he could probably
find out) but based on the use of cloth covered cable, we're thinking
maybe early 60's.

The condo complex is only one level, i.e. no living space above him.
As far as he knows there is a crawl space above the ceiling, but he
has not been able to find a way to access it so that he can see the
top of the ceiling.

The grayish paper seen on the left is not part of the drywall. It appears
to be a separate sheet of thick paper, sandwiched between the drywall
and the reddish-brown material. He said it's not stuck to the material
above it.

The reddish-brown surface is hard. When he plunged into the drywall
with his oscillating tool, it stopped plunging when it hit the material
above the drywall.

If you zoom in on the picture, it sort of looks like there may be a
round junction box buried beneath the red material, but he doesn't
want to dig any further until he has an idea of what's going on.

If the material above the drywall is some kind of fire block/retardant,
he wants to make sure that he hasn't compromised the protection - or
at least recreates it - once he figures out how to hang the new fixture.

Any ideas as to how he should proceed would be appreciated.

On 5/1/2021 11:25 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
My son is doing some work on a condo in Las Vegas. The fact
that it's a condo in a condo complex may be a clue as to how
the ceiling was constructed. (commercial codes vs. residential,
perhaps.)

The current task is to replace an old florescent fixture in the
kitchen with a much heavier hanging fixture. He removed the
old fixture to see what kind of box was used and didn't see one.
The cloth covered cable was coming right through the drywall.
He cut a hole in the drywall to see what was under it and found
this:

https://i.imgur.com/Xhwixdh.jpg

Some details, according to how my son explained the situation to
me:

The plastic tube on the cable is a piece of the old fixture, so ignore it.

He doesn't know exactly when the condo was built (he could probably
find out) but based on the use of cloth covered cable, we're thinking
maybe early 60's.

The condo complex is only one level, i.e. no living space above him.
As far as he knows there is a crawl space above the ceiling, but he
has not been able to find a way to access it so that he can see the
top of the ceiling.

The grayish paper seen on the left is not part of the drywall. It appears
to be a separate sheet of thick paper, sandwiched between the drywall
and the reddish-brown material. He said it's not stuck to the material
above it.

The reddish-brown surface is hard. When he plunged into the drywall
with his oscillating tool, it stopped plunging when it hit the material
above the drywall.

If you zoom in on the picture, it sort of looks like there may be a
round junction box buried beneath the red material, but he doesn't
want to dig any further until he has an idea of what's going on.

If the material above the drywall is some kind of fire block/retardant,
he wants to make sure that he hasn't compromised the protection - or
at least recreates it - once he figures out how to hang the new fixture.

Any ideas as to how he should proceed would be appreciated.


Commercial codes require fireproofing between units/floors . That red
stuff is the fireproof sealer they use to seal openings in fireproof
barriers . That ceiling is probably 2 layers of 5/8" drywall .
--
Snag
Race only matters to racists ...

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 12:33:36 PM UTC-4, Snag wrote:
On 5/1/2021 11:25 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
My son is doing some work on a condo in Las Vegas. The fact
that it's a condo in a condo complex may be a clue as to how
the ceiling was constructed. (commercial codes vs. residential,
perhaps.)

The current task is to replace an old florescent fixture in the
kitchen with a much heavier hanging fixture. He removed the
old fixture to see what kind of box was used and didn't see one.
The cloth covered cable was coming right through the drywall.
He cut a hole in the drywall to see what was under it and found
this:

https://i.imgur.com/Xhwixdh.jpg

Some details, according to how my son explained the situation to
me:

The plastic tube on the cable is a piece of the old fixture, so ignore it.

He doesn't know exactly when the condo was built (he could probably
find out) but based on the use of cloth covered cable, we're thinking
maybe early 60's.

The condo complex is only one level, i.e. no living space above him.
As far as he knows there is a crawl space above the ceiling, but he
has not been able to find a way to access it so that he can see the
top of the ceiling.

The grayish paper seen on the left is not part of the drywall. It appears
to be a separate sheet of thick paper, sandwiched between the drywall
and the reddish-brown material. He said it's not stuck to the material
above it.

The reddish-brown surface is hard. When he plunged into the drywall
with his oscillating tool, it stopped plunging when it hit the material
above the drywall.

If you zoom in on the picture, it sort of looks like there may be a
round junction box buried beneath the red material, but he doesn't
want to dig any further until he has an idea of what's going on.

If the material above the drywall is some kind of fire block/retardant,
he wants to make sure that he hasn't compromised the protection - or
at least recreates it - once he figures out how to hang the new fixture.

Any ideas as to how he should proceed would be appreciated.

Commercial codes require fireproofing between units/floors . That red
stuff is the fireproof sealer they use to seal openings in fireproof
barriers . That ceiling is probably 2 layers of 5/8" drywall .
--
Snag
Race only matters to racists ...
Reminds me to check my sous vide rib eye. Time to flip the zip lock. 30 min to go.

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 12:33:36 PM UTC-4, Snag wrote:
On 5/1/2021 11:25 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
My son is doing some work on a condo in Las Vegas. The fact
that it's a condo in a condo complex may be a clue as to how
the ceiling was constructed. (commercial codes vs. residential,
perhaps.)

The current task is to replace an old florescent fixture in the
kitchen with a much heavier hanging fixture. He removed the
old fixture to see what kind of box was used and didn't see one.
The cloth covered cable was coming right through the drywall.
He cut a hole in the drywall to see what was under it and found
this:

https://i.imgur.com/Xhwixdh.jpg

Some details, according to how my son explained the situation to
me:

The plastic tube on the cable is a piece of the old fixture, so ignore it.

He doesn't know exactly when the condo was built (he could probably
find out) but based on the use of cloth covered cable, we're thinking
maybe early 60's.

The condo complex is only one level, i.e. no living space above him.
As far as he knows there is a crawl space above the ceiling, but he
has not been able to find a way to access it so that he can see the
top of the ceiling.

The grayish paper seen on the left is not part of the drywall. It appears
to be a separate sheet of thick paper, sandwiched between the drywall
and the reddish-brown material. He said it's not stuck to the material
above it.

The reddish-brown surface is hard. When he plunged into the drywall
with his oscillating tool, it stopped plunging when it hit the material
above the drywall.

If you zoom in on the picture, it sort of looks like there may be a
round junction box buried beneath the red material, but he doesn't
want to dig any further until he has an idea of what's going on.

If the material above the drywall is some kind of fire block/retardant,
he wants to make sure that he hasn't compromised the protection - or
at least recreates it - once he figures out how to hang the new fixture.

Any ideas as to how he should proceed would be appreciated.

Commercial codes require fireproofing between units/floors . That red
stuff is the fireproof sealer they use to seal openings in fireproof
barriers . That ceiling is probably 2 layers of 5/8" drywall .
--

Thanks.

Is it safe to assume that:

1 - The sealer would be *much* harder than the drywall? As noted
above, my son felt a considerable amount of resistance once he
cut through the finish ceiling drywall. i.e. his oscillating tool stopped
plunging.

2 - If he digs deep enough he is going to find an electrical box
under the sealer?

From how I see it, if the electrical box is installed flush with the lower
face of the upper layer of drywall, then sealed over with retardant,
then dry-walled over again with the finished ceiling, doesn't that
essentially amount to a concealed junction box?

AFAIK concealed junction boxes aren't allowed by any code, commercial
or residential.

On Sat, 1 May 2021 09:25:31 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03 posted for all of us to
digest...


My son is doing some work on a condo in Las Vegas. The fact
that it's a condo in a condo complex may be a clue as to how
the ceiling was constructed. (commercial codes vs. residential,
perhaps.)

The current task is to replace an old florescent fixture in the
kitchen with a much heavier hanging fixture. He removed the
old fixture to see what kind of box was used and didn't see one.
The cloth covered cable was coming right through the drywall.
He cut a hole in the drywall to see what was under it and found
this:

https://i.imgur.com/Xhwixdh.jpg

Some details, according to how my son explained the situation to
me:

The plastic tube on the cable is a piece of the old fixture, so ignore it.

He doesn't know exactly when the condo was built (he could probably
find out) but based on the use of cloth covered cable, we're thinking
maybe early 60's.

The condo complex is only one level, i.e. no living space above him.
As far as he knows there is a crawl space above the ceiling, but he
has not been able to find a way to access it so that he can see the
top of the ceiling.

The grayish paper seen on the left is not part of the drywall. It appears
to be a separate sheet of thick paper, sandwiched between the drywall
and the reddish-brown material. He said it's not stuck to the material
above it.

The reddish-brown surface is hard. When he plunged into the drywall
with his oscillating tool, it stopped plunging when it hit the material
above the drywall.

If you zoom in on the picture, it sort of looks like there may be a
round junction box buried beneath the red material, but he doesn't
want to dig any further until he has an idea of what's going on.

If the material above the drywall is some kind of fire block/retardant,
he wants to make sure that he hasn't compromised the protection - or
at least recreates it - once he figures out how to hang the new fixture.

Any ideas as to how he should proceed would be appreciated.

Hey DD3 nice to see you back!

Looks to me the red stuff is fireproofing and the plastic pipe may be
nonmetallic pipe (conduit).

Can you locate any nailing pattern in the ceiling to locate joists.

Is there an attic access in a closet? Try to follow the stink pipe up.

I'm sure GFretwell can add some light to this.

What is the weight of the new fixture?

--
Tekkie

[snip]

Just as an fyi, the house we recently moved into
was built 1990ish, and had that same garbage of
a twin 40 fluorescent fixture simply screwed
into a plasterboard ceiling, with non metallic
"romex" type cabling running to it.

No secure fasteners or boxes. Just screws and
anchors in overhead drywall.

We were amazed it hadn't fallen down on its own.

We had to cut more drywall away until we could
find the wooden crossbeams, install and properly
frame new metal boxes, etc., before we could
hang a new fixture...


--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On Sat, 1 May 2021 09:25:31 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

My son is doing some work on a condo in Las Vegas. The fact
that it's a condo in a condo complex may be a clue as to how
the ceiling was constructed. (commercial codes vs. residential,
perhaps.)

The current task is to replace an old florescent fixture in the
kitchen with a much heavier hanging fixture. He removed the
old fixture to see what kind of box was used and didn't see one.
The cloth covered cable was coming right through the drywall.
He cut a hole in the drywall to see what was under it and found
this:

https://i.imgur.com/Xhwixdh.jpg

Some details, according to how my son explained the situation to
me:

The plastic tube on the cable is a piece of the old fixture, so ignore it.

He doesn't know exactly when the condo was built (he could probably
find out) but based on the use of cloth covered cable, we're thinking
maybe early 60's.

The condo complex is only one level, i.e. no living space above him.
As far as he knows there is a crawl space above the ceiling, but he
has not been able to find a way to access it so that he can see the
top of the ceiling.

The grayish paper seen on the left is not part of the drywall. It appears
to be a separate sheet of thick paper, sandwiched between the drywall
and the reddish-brown material. He said it's not stuck to the material
above it.

The reddish-brown surface is hard. When he plunged into the drywall
with his oscillating tool, it stopped plunging when it hit the material
above the drywall.

If you zoom in on the picture, it sort of looks like there may be a
round junction box buried beneath the red material, but he doesn't
want to dig any further until he has an idea of what's going on.

If the material above the drywall is some kind of fire block/retardant,
he wants to make sure that he hasn't compromised the protection - or
at least recreates it - once he figures out how to hang the new fixture.

Any ideas as to how he should proceed would be appreciated.
Dedinitely looks like some kind of fire stop

On Sat, 1 May 2021 11:56:45 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 12:33:36 PM UTC-4, Snag wrote:
On 5/1/2021 11:25 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
My son is doing some work on a condo in Las Vegas. The fact
that it's a condo in a condo complex may be a clue as to how
the ceiling was constructed. (commercial codes vs. residential,
perhaps.)

The current task is to replace an old florescent fixture in the
kitchen with a much heavier hanging fixture. He removed the
old fixture to see what kind of box was used and didn't see one.
The cloth covered cable was coming right through the drywall.
He cut a hole in the drywall to see what was under it and found
this:

https://i.imgur.com/Xhwixdh.jpg

Some details, according to how my son explained the situation to
me:

The plastic tube on the cable is a piece of the old fixture, so ignore it.

He doesn't know exactly when the condo was built (he could probably
find out) but based on the use of cloth covered cable, we're thinking
maybe early 60's.

The condo complex is only one level, i.e. no living space above him.
As far as he knows there is a crawl space above the ceiling, but he
has not been able to find a way to access it so that he can see the
top of the ceiling.

The grayish paper seen on the left is not part of the drywall. It appears
to be a separate sheet of thick paper, sandwiched between the drywall
and the reddish-brown material. He said it's not stuck to the material
above it.

The reddish-brown surface is hard. When he plunged into the drywall
with his oscillating tool, it stopped plunging when it hit the material
above the drywall.

If you zoom in on the picture, it sort of looks like there may be a
round junction box buried beneath the red material, but he doesn't
want to dig any further until he has an idea of what's going on.

If the material above the drywall is some kind of fire block/retardant,
he wants to make sure that he hasn't compromised the protection - or
at least recreates it - once he figures out how to hang the new fixture.

Any ideas as to how he should proceed would be appreciated.

Commercial codes require fireproofing between units/floors . That red
stuff is the fireproof sealer they use to seal openings in fireproof
barriers . That ceiling is probably 2 layers of 5/8" drywall .
--

Thanks.

Is it safe to assume that:

1 - The sealer would be *much* harder than the drywall? As noted
above, my son felt a considerable amount of resistance once he
cut through the finish ceiling drywall. i.e. his oscillating tool stopped
plunging.

2 - If he digs deep enough he is going to find an electrical box
under the sealer?

From how I see it, if the electrical box is installed flush with the lower
face of the upper layer of drywall, then sealed over with retardant,
then dry-walled over again with the finished ceiling, doesn't that
essentially amount to a concealed junction box?

AFAIK concealed junction boxes aren't allowed by any code, commercial
or residential.
As long as there are no joints IN the box it's not a junction box -

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 10:38:48 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 1 May 2021 11:56:45 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 12:33:36 PM UTC-4, Snag wrote:
On 5/1/2021 11:25 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
My son is doing some work on a condo in Las Vegas. The fact
that it's a condo in a condo complex may be a clue as to how
the ceiling was constructed. (commercial codes vs. residential,
perhaps.)

The current task is to replace an old florescent fixture in the
kitchen with a much heavier hanging fixture. He removed the
old fixture to see what kind of box was used and didn't see one.
The cloth covered cable was coming right through the drywall.
He cut a hole in the drywall to see what was under it and found
this:

https://i.imgur.com/Xhwixdh.jpg

Some details, according to how my son explained the situation to
me:

The plastic tube on the cable is a piece of the old fixture, so ignore it.

He doesn't know exactly when the condo was built (he could probably
find out) but based on the use of cloth covered cable, we're thinking
maybe early 60's.

The condo complex is only one level, i.e. no living space above him.
As far as he knows there is a crawl space above the ceiling, but he
has not been able to find a way to access it so that he can see the
top of the ceiling.

The grayish paper seen on the left is not part of the drywall. It appears
to be a separate sheet of thick paper, sandwiched between the drywall
and the reddish-brown material. He said it's not stuck to the material
above it.

The reddish-brown surface is hard. When he plunged into the drywall
with his oscillating tool, it stopped plunging when it hit the material
above the drywall.

If you zoom in on the picture, it sort of looks like there may be a
round junction box buried beneath the red material, but he doesn't
want to dig any further until he has an idea of what's going on.

If the material above the drywall is some kind of fire block/retardant,
he wants to make sure that he hasn't compromised the protection - or
at least recreates it - once he figures out how to hang the new fixture.

Any ideas as to how he should proceed would be appreciated.

Commercial codes require fireproofing between units/floors . That red
stuff is the fireproof sealer they use to seal openings in fireproof
barriers . That ceiling is probably 2 layers of 5/8" drywall .
--

Thanks.

Is it safe to assume that:

1 - The sealer would be *much* harder than the drywall? As noted
above, my son felt a considerable amount of resistance once he
cut through the finish ceiling drywall. i.e. his oscillating tool stopped
plunging.

2 - If he digs deep enough he is going to find an electrical box
under the sealer?

From how I see it, if the electrical box is installed flush with the lower
face of the upper layer of drywall, then sealed over with retardant,
then dry-walled over again with the finished ceiling, doesn't that
essentially amount to a concealed junction box?

AFAIK concealed junction boxes aren't allowed by any code, commercial
or residential.
As long as there are no joints IN the box it's not a junction box -

OK, so let's assume it's not a concealed junction box, just a concealed
box (which wasn't used to hang the previous fixture. That much we know).
We're also assuming that there really is a box under the fire retardant
material. Until he digs deeper we won't know. So...

Does code allow the cable to come through the *second* layer of drywall
without a sleeve? i.e It's secured to the hidden box with a romex-type connector,
but then just comes through a hole in the finished ceiling.

Is that allowed?

On Sun, 2 May 2021 08:46:21 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 10:38:48 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 1 May 2021 11:56:45 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 12:33:36 PM UTC-4, Snag wrote:
On 5/1/2021 11:25 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
My son is doing some work on a condo in Las Vegas. The fact
that it's a condo in a condo complex may be a clue as to how
the ceiling was constructed. (commercial codes vs. residential,
perhaps.)

The current task is to replace an old florescent fixture in the
kitchen with a much heavier hanging fixture. He removed the
old fixture to see what kind of box was used and didn't see one.
The cloth covered cable was coming right through the drywall.
He cut a hole in the drywall to see what was under it and found
this:

https://i.imgur.com/Xhwixdh.jpg

Some details, according to how my son explained the situation to
me:

The plastic tube on the cable is a piece of the old fixture, so ignore it.

He doesn't know exactly when the condo was built (he could probably
find out) but based on the use of cloth covered cable, we're thinking
maybe early 60's.

The condo complex is only one level, i.e. no living space above him.
As far as he knows there is a crawl space above the ceiling, but he
has not been able to find a way to access it so that he can see the
top of the ceiling.

The grayish paper seen on the left is not part of the drywall. It appears
to be a separate sheet of thick paper, sandwiched between the drywall
and the reddish-brown material. He said it's not stuck to the material
above it.

The reddish-brown surface is hard. When he plunged into the drywall
with his oscillating tool, it stopped plunging when it hit the material
above the drywall.

If you zoom in on the picture, it sort of looks like there may be a
round junction box buried beneath the red material, but he doesn't
want to dig any further until he has an idea of what's going on.

If the material above the drywall is some kind of fire block/retardant,
he wants to make sure that he hasn't compromised the protection - or
at least recreates it - once he figures out how to hang the new fixture.

Any ideas as to how he should proceed would be appreciated.

Commercial codes require fireproofing between units/floors . That red
stuff is the fireproof sealer they use to seal openings in fireproof
barriers . That ceiling is probably 2 layers of 5/8" drywall .
--

Thanks.

Is it safe to assume that:

1 - The sealer would be *much* harder than the drywall? As noted
above, my son felt a considerable amount of resistance once he
cut through the finish ceiling drywall. i.e. his oscillating tool stopped
plunging.

2 - If he digs deep enough he is going to find an electrical box
under the sealer?

From how I see it, if the electrical box is installed flush with the lower
face of the upper layer of drywall, then sealed over with retardant,
then dry-walled over again with the finished ceiling, doesn't that
essentially amount to a concealed junction box?

AFAIK concealed junction boxes aren't allowed by any code, commercial
or residential.
As long as there are no joints IN the box it's not a junction box -

OK, so let's assume it's not a concealed junction box, just a concealed
box (which wasn't used to hang the previous fixture. That much we know).
We're also assuming that there really is a box under the fire retardant
material. Until he digs deeper we won't know. So...

Does code allow the cable to come through the *second* layer of drywall
without a sleeve? i.e It's secured to the hidden box with a romex-type connector,
but then just comes through a hole in the finished ceiling.

Is that allowed?
Depends. SOME fixtures are approved for use AS a junction box - and
some even as a raceway.

from "the spruce":

Types of Devices That Don't Need Boxes
The first clue that a device is designed to be used without a junction
box is that it has its own complete housing. And it generally will not
have any wire leads extruding from it, because these wires are
contained inside a wire connection compartment. Common examples of
electrical devices that require no junction boxes include:

Recessed lights ("can lights")
Bathroom ventilation fans
Wall-mounted heaters
Fluorescent tube-style light fixtures
Garbage disposers
Baseboard heaters
Many permanently installed appliances, such as kitchen vent hoods,
dishwashers, and hot water heaters also don't require junction boxes.
With these devices, if the electrical wires will be exposed or run
outside of a wall, ceiling, or floor cavity, the wires must be
contained inside metal armored cable rather than in standard
non-metallic (NM) cable.