On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 17:34:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I an not sure I ever said a monkey could get an EC license (I only
remember talking about "home inspectors") but if that monkey can pass
2 or 3, 100 question, multiple guess, open book tests and come up with
the bond and insurance money, they can be an EC here. In some mobbed
up union states up north, the IBEW certifies electricians and it
depends on who you know down at the local hall


This monkey only had to take the North Carolina electrical test 3 times
to pass it. You should hear some of the stories he told on himself of
the things he tried to do and how the 'sorry' inspector turned him down.

A lot of people choke on tests. I don't really have that problem. If I
just had to pass a test I could be a doctor, a lawyer and an indian
chief ;-)

On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 15:38:42 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, July 8, 2020 11:27PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/8/2020 10:26 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 21:01:22 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 13:45:10 -0500, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:58:37 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:56:29 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 11:14PM, "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run. If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.

Pretty much all new construction is going to use 12 gauge hot with maybe even 10 wire for a neutral.

Huh?
You must not see much actual construction.
In 1 & 2 family, 14-2 is alive and well for general lighting circuits.
#12 is only used for kitchens, laundries and bathrooms.

In my housing development, there isn't an inch of 14ga anywhere. All of the
120v circuit breakers are 20a and all of the Romex is yellow, no exceptions
for lighting circuits.

On the surface that might sound good but you usually end up with fewer
circuits. The breakers are sized by square footage, not the number of
outlets.

Yeah, I don't think it's a good thing. For example, the entire M-I-L suite
is served by a single 20a breaker. That part of the house includes a living
room, a bedroom, a walk-in closet, and a bathroom, all with lights and
receptacles throughout. It's basically an apartment inside the house, and
the whole thing is served by a single breaker.


Ouch! Was that wired by a pro? Lights and receptacles on the same
breaker?

Believe it or not, some residential slash commercial establishments have a high-leg conductor from a 120/240V 3 phase where an exit sign and an outlet (and flood light?) can be attached to 277v lighting (for emergency reasons).

Huh?
The high leg on a 240/120v center tapped delta is 208v.
You get 277 from 480v wye. (L/N)

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 1:30:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ? Or can I use something smaller like #20 bell wire as long as the jacket is rated at 600v ?

Any help is appreciated.

I checked w/local supply houses and they wanted $150 for 250' of 14/4 wire.
Found it on HomeDepot site for $83 (free ship to store).
Inside the the box the 2nd switch controls a light literally 20" from the switch, I could easily get a neutral from there. Leaning back toward just running 14/3 back to the light 70' away. Seems kind of ridiculous to run a neutral back 70' to run a neon lamp ? I will setup the switch on the workbench and measure the amperage that the pilot lamp draws.

On Friday, July 10, 2020 at 9:53:01 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 1:30:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ? Or can I use something smaller like #20 bell wire as long as the jacket is rated at 600v ?

Any help is appreciated.

I checked w/local supply houses and they wanted $150 for 250' of 14/4 wire.
Found it on HomeDepot site for $83 (free ship to store).
Inside the the box the 2nd switch controls a light literally 20" from the switch, I could easily get a neutral from there.

Are you saying the problem is that neutral is not on the same circuit?
If so, how about changing the wiring so that both are on the same circuit?
May not be possible for a variety of reasons, including that you might
need two because of the loads. But if it's just some lights or similar,
the loads may be small and maybe you could rewire all or part of it to
be on the circuit with the pilot light and then use that neutral.





Leaning back toward just running 14/3 back to the light 70' away. Seems kind of ridiculous to run a neutral back 70' to run a neon lamp ? I will setup the switch on the workbench and measure the amperage that the pilot lamp draws.

I wouldn't bother, unless it's some mega pilot light, 14g is plenty and
it's a 15A circuit.

wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 15:38:42 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Wednesday, July 8, 2020 11:27PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/8/2020 10:26 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 21:01:22 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 13:45:10 -0500, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:58:37 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:56:29 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 11:14PM, "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run. If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.

Pretty much all new construction is going to use 12 gauge hot with maybe even 10 wire for a neutral.

Huh?
You must not see much actual construction.
In 1 & 2 family, 14-2 is alive and well for general lighting circuits.
#12 is only used for kitchens, laundries and bathrooms.

In my housing development, there isn't an inch of 14ga anywhere. All of the
120v circuit breakers are 20a and all of the Romex is yellow, no exceptions
for lighting circuits.

On the surface that might sound good but you usually end up with fewer
circuits. The breakers are sized by square footage, not the number of
outlets.

Yeah, I don't think it's a good thing. For example, the entire M-I-L suite
is served by a single 20a breaker. That part of the house includes a living
room, a bedroom, a walk-in closet, and a bathroom, all with lights and
receptacles throughout. It's basically an apartment inside the house, and
the whole thing is served by a single breaker.


Ouch! Was that wired by a pro? Lights and receptacles on the same
breaker?

Believe it or not, some residential slash commercial establishments have a high-leg conductor from a 120/240V 3 phase where an exit sign and an outlet (and flood light?) can be attached to 277v lighting (for emergency reasons).

Huh?

I was listening to someone explain why a conductor from the 277 orange b phase from the ceiling went to an exit sign and an outlet that the maintenance man would know to use in an emergency.

The high leg on a 240/120v center tapped delta is 208v.
You get 277 from 480v wye. (L/N)

I saw this online awhile ago: "If you DO read 277V Phase to Ground at some point down stream, that does NOT automatically mean it is Wye secondary. There are a myriad of reasons why your meter may read 277V on an ungrounded Delta system. -Jul 11, 2017

On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 16:08:28 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 15:38:42 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Wednesday, July 8, 2020 11:27PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/8/2020 10:26 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 21:01:22 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 13:45:10 -0500, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:58:37 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:56:29 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 11:14PM, "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run. If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.

Pretty much all new construction is going to use 12 gauge hot with maybe even 10 wire for a neutral.

Huh?
You must not see much actual construction.
In 1 & 2 family, 14-2 is alive and well for general lighting circuits.
#12 is only used for kitchens, laundries and bathrooms.

In my housing development, there isn't an inch of 14ga anywhere. All of the
120v circuit breakers are 20a and all of the Romex is yellow, no exceptions
for lighting circuits.

On the surface that might sound good but you usually end up with fewer
circuits. The breakers are sized by square footage, not the number of
outlets.

Yeah, I don't think it's a good thing. For example, the entire M-I-L suite
is served by a single 20a breaker. That part of the house includes a living
room, a bedroom, a walk-in closet, and a bathroom, all with lights and
receptacles throughout. It's basically an apartment inside the house, and
the whole thing is served by a single breaker.


Ouch! Was that wired by a pro? Lights and receptacles on the same
breaker?

Believe it or not, some residential slash commercial establishments have a high-leg conductor from a 120/240V 3 phase where an exit sign and an outlet (and flood light?) can be attached to 277v lighting (for emergency reasons).

Huh?

I was listening to someone explain why a conductor from the 277 orange b phase from the ceiling went to an exit sign and an outlet that the maintenance man would know to use in an emergency.

The high leg on a 240/120v center tapped delta is 208v.
You get 277 from 480v wye. (L/N)

You are still not getting 277 from a center tapped 240/120 delta.

I saw this online awhile ago: "If you DO read 277V Phase to Ground at some point down stream, that does NOT automatically mean it is Wye secondary. There are a myriad of reasons why your meter may read 277V on an ungrounded Delta system. -Jul 11, 2017

Ungrounded systems are exceedingly rare and come with a whole lot of
extra precautions. Generally it will only be supplied to a factory
with some extremely critical process and it would only serve that
process. There will be a grounded service for everything else.
Glass plants are one example I have heard about. If that process stops
with glass in the pipe, you will be rebuilding the plant.

I guess I've never tried out a 120v outlet wrongly wired up to 277v lighting, but, I know some of these 120v outlets are putting out 277v and that's the only explanation as to why. This is former commercial property (480 having 277 to balance) that is now residential. As per code 210.9 exact quote: "Branch circuits shall not be derived from autotransformers unless the circuit supplied has a grounded conductor that is electrically connected to a grounded conductor of the system supplying the autotransformer". So I guess it's all legal if there's a $100 dollar or so autotransformer between the two.