Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ? Or can I use something smaller like #20 bell wire as long as the jacket is rated at 600v ?

Any help is appreciated.

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 2:30:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ? Or can I use something smaller like #20 bell wire as long as the jacket is rated at 600v ?

Any help is appreciated.

14, assuming it's a 15A circuit and that wire has to be part of the cable
or inside the same conduit, etc. You can't just run another separate wire, even if it's 14 gauge.

On 7/6/2020 2:30 PM, wrote:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ? Or can I use something smaller like #20 bell wire as long as the jacket is rated at 600v ?

Any help is appreciated.

The fuse or circuit breaker determines wire size, not the load. If a
typical 15A circuit you need 14 ga.

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 1:30:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ? Or can I use something smaller like #20 bell wire as long as the jacket is rated at 600v ?

Any help is appreciated.

The house is in the country and all wiring is Romex.
I was shopping and found some 14-3 that was not that expensive.
Didn't see anything that was 14-4. (conduit would have been nice)
Can I run a 14-3 romex and 14-2 from the light ?

writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run. If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 3:43:38 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 1:30:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ? Or can I use something smaller like #20 bell wire as long as the jacket is rated at 600v ?

Any help is appreciated.

The house is in the country and all wiring is Romex.
I was shopping and found some 14-3 that was not that expensive.
Didn't see anything that was 14-4. (conduit would have been nice)
Can I run a 14-3 romex and 14-2 from the light ?

Maybe we should back up and start from the beginning. If the switch powers
the load and the load is on when the switch is on, then you would just need
a neutral at the switch to power the pilot light. Is that the wire you
need to run, because there is no neutral in the box with the switch?
If that's the case, then you don't necessarily need the neutral to come
from where the load is, it just needs to be the neutral for that circuit,
which you might be able to re-wire from somewhere more convenient.
How is it wired now, what runs from the switch to the load, etc?

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 7:14:10 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run.

For a switch pilot light? That would be one hell of a long run to need
12 gauge.



If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 1:30:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ? Or can I use something smaller like #20 bell wire as long as the jacket is rated at 600v ?

Any help is appreciated.

The switches are 3-way pilot. I need a neutral as well as a leg from the load.
The real problem is that the current switch is in proximity to the light (and I don't want that one to go away), and the people living there can't easily walk the extra 50' to the switch. So they ask for a 2nd switch very close to the door, but from that door you would not be able to see if the light was illuminated or not. I suggested an switch w/pilot. Could use X10 or some other tech stuff, but that just confuses elderly, and in my experience they just don't use it or turn it off.

So I am looking at using 3-way switches w/5 screws: 1 line, 2 travelers, 1 neutral, 1 parallel to load (for illumination).

Thanks

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 12:43:34 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 1:30:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ? Or can I use something smaller like #20 bell wire as long as the jacket is rated at 600v ?

Any help is appreciated.

The house is in the country and all wiring is Romex.
I was shopping and found some 14-3 that was not that expensive.
Didn't see anything that was 14-4. (conduit would have been nice)
Can I run a 14-3 romex and 14-2 from the light ?

Now you see why the code started requiring a neutral at all switching
locations ;-)

The main issue I see with running 2 cables is the box fill at both
ends. That is terminating a lot of wires. I assume this is a switch
loop. (power feeds the box with the light and you are just taking a
loop to the switch). One 14/3 should do it unless I am missing
something here. Usually you only run an x/2 for a switch loop and now
you need a neutral too for the light.

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 23:14:07 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run. If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.
For a pilot light you CAN use lighter wire with it's own fuse. (not
sure if it is addressed in current code but it's been done MANY times.
And if the pilot is in the same box it's a non-issue anyway.

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 1:30:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ? Or can I use something smaller like #20 bell wire as long as the jacket is rated at 600v ?

Any help is appreciated.

I like the idea of a switch-loop, I was thinking about it backwards.
So if I run 14-3 from the light and I am adding another gang to the existing gang-box, I could use two wires from the 14-3 romex as the travelers, the 3rd as the load, connect the load to the illumination screw and get the neutral from one of the existing gangs (if its there) ?
Again, if the existing switches are just switch loops, I may not find a neutral ? Would it be over the top to just tie the neutral (for illumination) from the switch to the ground and let it get its neutral that way ?

Thanks

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 16:38:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 7:14:10 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run.

For a switch pilot light? That would be one hell of a long run to need
12 gauge.



If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.

The smallest "fixture wire" you can put on 15&20a circuits is 18ga.
That can only go to loads that are limited by design, like a luminaire
or an appliance. If you use smaller wire, you need supplemental O/C
protection. "Fixture wire" is also limited to the load end of a branch
circuit. If this is run with circuit conductors, it needs to be
compliant with 240.4(D), The old 15a =14ga, 20a=12ga rule

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 19:12:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 1:30:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ? Or can I use something smaller like #20 bell wire as long as the jacket is rated at 600v ?

Any help is appreciated.

I like the idea of a switch-loop, I was thinking about it backwards.
So if I run 14-3 from the light and I am adding another gang to the existing gang-box, I could use two wires from the 14-3 romex as the travelers, the 3rd as the load, connect the load to the illumination screw and get the neutral from one of the existing gangs (if its there) ?
Again, if the existing switches are just switch loops, I may not find a neutral ? Would it be over the top to just tie the neutral (for illumination) from the switch to the ground and let it get its neutral that way ?

Thanks

That is technically illegal too. The neutral needs to be from the same
circuit and run with the circuit conductors. If it was grabbed from
another circuit, that is an AFCI trip for sure when someone tries to
install them. If all the circuits in that gang box are on the same
circuit, you probably could do it and I doubt the inductive heating
(from a metal box) would burn the house down for a pilot light.
BTW they do make 4 wire Romex but you need to go to a real electrical
supply to get it. It will be called 14-2-2.

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 1:30:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ? Or can I use something smaller like #20 bell wire as long as the jacket is rated at 600v ?

Any help is appreciated.

No matter how you cut it, I need 4 wires.
I did finally find some 14-2-2 at some big-box stores, but min is 250', I probably only need about 70'. One vendor on Ebay has it in several lengths for about $0.80 / foot w/free shipping.
Should I go looking for a better price ?

writes:
On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 19:12:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 1:30:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ? Or can I use something smaller like #20 bell wire as long as the jacket is rated at 600v ?

Any help is appreciated.

I like the idea of a switch-loop, I was thinking about it backwards.
So if I run 14-3 from the light and I am adding another gang to the existing gang-box, I could use two wires from the 14-3 romex as the travelers, the 3rd as the load, connect the load to the illumination screw and get the neutral from one of the existing gangs (if its there) ?
Again, if the existing switches are just switch loops, I may not find a neutral ? Would it be over the top to just tie the neutral (for illumination) from the switch to the ground and let it get its neutral that way ?

Thanks

That is technically illegal too. The neutral needs to be from the same
circuit and run with the circuit conductors. If it was grabbed from
another circuit, that is an AFCI trip for sure when someone tries to
install them. If all the circuits in that gang box are on the same
circuit, you probably could do it and I doubt the inductive heating
(from a metal box) would burn the house down for a pilot light.
BTW they do make 4 wire Romex but you need to go to a real electrical
supply to get it. It will be called 14-2-2.


My home depot has 12-2-14-2 in a single romex jacket (w/gnd). Some fancy
switches require that, apparently.

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 05:51:41 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 1:30:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ? Or can I use something smaller like #20 bell wire as long as the jacket is rated at 600v ?

Any help is appreciated.

No matter how you cut it, I need 4 wires.
I did finally find some 14-2-2 at some big-box stores, but min is 250', I probably only need about 70'. One vendor on Ebay has it in several lengths for about $0.80 / foot w/free shipping.
Should I go looking for a better price ?

What does the 250' roll work out to? That is a hint. You could also
stop in to an electrical supply and see what they want for it, cut.

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 06:41:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2020 at 1:50:14 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 19:12:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 1:30:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ? Or can I use something smaller like #20 bell wire as long as the jacket is rated at 600v ?

Any help is appreciated.

I like the idea of a switch-loop, I was thinking about it backwards.
So if I run 14-3 from the light and I am adding another gang to the existing gang-box, I could use two wires from the 14-3 romex as the travelers, the 3rd as the load, connect the load to the illumination screw and get the neutral from one of the existing gangs (if its there) ?
Again, if the existing switches are just switch loops, I may not find a neutral ? Would it be over the top to just tie the neutral (for illumination) from the switch to the ground and let it get its neutral that way ?

Thanks

That is technically illegal too. The neutral needs to be from the same
circuit and run with the circuit conductors. If it was grabbed from
another circuit, that is an AFCI trip for sure when someone tries to
install them. If all the circuits in that gang box are on the same
circuit, you probably could do it and I doubt the inductive heating
(from a metal box) would burn the house down for a pilot light.
BTW they do make 4 wire Romex but you need to go to a real electrical
supply to get it. It will be called 14-2-2.

Same no-go with using the ground as the neutral connection for the pilot light.
I don't think there is an exception for a small LED light, just a couple of
MA, is there?



14-2-2 is 4 insulated conductors and a bare ground, what he needs.
There used to be an exception in the U/L listings that allowed 0.5 MA
to go down the ground but it disappeared sometime in the 90s. It might
have been around NEC 96 when the NFPA reevaluated all of those
ground/neutral exceptions like 3 wire dryer cords and 3 wire feeders
to remote buildings. (The 96 ROP process was actually opened in 93)

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 11:14PM, "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run. If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.

Pretty much all new construction is going to use 12 gauge hot with maybe even 10 wire for a neutral.

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:56:29 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 11:14PM, "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run. If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.

Pretty much all new construction is going to use 12 gauge hot with maybe even 10 wire for a neutral.
Another option is a low voltage pilot light - put the transformer on
one of the light boxes and run low voltage (like bell or thermostat)
cable to the pilot.

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 14:45:04 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 19:12:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 1:30:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ? Or can I use something smaller like #20 bell wire as long as the jacket is rated at 600v ?

Any help is appreciated.

I like the idea of a switch-loop, I was thinking about it backwards.
So if I run 14-3 from the light and I am adding another gang to the existing gang-box, I could use two wires from the 14-3 romex as the travelers, the 3rd as the load, connect the load to the illumination screw and get the neutral from one of the existing gangs (if its there) ?
Again, if the existing switches are just switch loops, I may not find a neutral ? Would it be over the top to just tie the neutral (for illumination) from the switch to the ground and let it get its neutral that way ?

Thanks

That is technically illegal too. The neutral needs to be from the same
circuit and run with the circuit conductors. If it was grabbed from
another circuit, that is an AFCI trip for sure when someone tries to
install them. If all the circuits in that gang box are on the same
circuit, you probably could do it and I doubt the inductive heating
(from a metal box) would burn the house down for a pilot light.
BTW they do make 4 wire Romex but you need to go to a real electrical
supply to get it. It will be called 14-2-2.


My home depot has 12-2-14-2 in a single romex jacket (w/gnd). Some fancy
switches require that, apparently.

This was driven by the AFCIs

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:56:29 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 11:14PM, "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run. If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.

Pretty much all new construction is going to use 12 gauge hot with maybe even 10 wire for a neutral.

Huh?
You must not see much actual construction.
In 1 & 2 family, 14-2 is alive and well for general lighting circuits.
#12 is only used for kitchens, laundries and bathrooms.

The only place you see "super neutrals" is on 208 3p wye and then only
where you have a lot of reactive load. It would actually be 2 sizes
bigger too. (#8 on a 20a circuit)

On Tuesday, July 7, 2020 at 3:56:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 11:14PM, "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run. If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.

Pretty much all new construction is going to use 12 gauge hot with maybe even 10 wire for a neutral.

IDK where you are, but here in US plenty of 14 gauge all over in new
residential construction. Far more 14g than 12g. Why would you run 12g,
which costs more and is harder to work with, to support some small lighting
circuits, for example? And why would you make the neutral larger? WTF?

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:58:37 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:56:29 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 11:14PM, "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run. If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.

Pretty much all new construction is going to use 12 gauge hot with maybe even 10 wire for a neutral.

Huh?
You must not see much actual construction.
In 1 & 2 family, 14-2 is alive and well for general lighting circuits.
#12 is only used for kitchens, laundries and bathrooms.

In my housing development, there isn't an inch of 14ga anywhere. All of the
120v circuit breakers are 20a and all of the Romex is yellow, no exceptions
for lighting circuits.


The only place you see "super neutrals" is on 208 3p wye and then only
where you have a lot of reactive load. It would actually be 2 sizes
bigger too. (#8 on a 20a circuit)

On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 13:45:10 -0500, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:58:37 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:56:29 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 11:14PM, "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run. If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.

Pretty much all new construction is going to use 12 gauge hot with maybe even 10 wire for a neutral.

Huh?
You must not see much actual construction.
In 1 & 2 family, 14-2 is alive and well for general lighting circuits.
#12 is only used for kitchens, laundries and bathrooms.

In my housing development, there isn't an inch of 14ga anywhere. All of the
120v circuit breakers are 20a and all of the Romex is yellow, no exceptions
for lighting circuits.

On the surface that might sound good but you usually end up with fewer
circuits. The breakers are sized by square footage, not the number of
outlets.

On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 21:01:22 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 13:45:10 -0500, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:58:37 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:56:29 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 11:14PM, "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run. If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.

Pretty much all new construction is going to use 12 gauge hot with maybe even 10 wire for a neutral.

Huh?
You must not see much actual construction.
In 1 & 2 family, 14-2 is alive and well for general lighting circuits.
#12 is only used for kitchens, laundries and bathrooms.

In my housing development, there isn't an inch of 14ga anywhere. All of the
120v circuit breakers are 20a and all of the Romex is yellow, no exceptions
for lighting circuits.

On the surface that might sound good but you usually end up with fewer
circuits. The breakers are sized by square footage, not the number of
outlets.

Yeah, I don't think it's a good thing. For example, the entire M-I-L suite
is served by a single 20a breaker. That part of the house includes a living
room, a bedroom, a walk-in closet, and a bathroom, all with lights and
receptacles throughout. It's basically an apartment inside the house, and
the whole thing is served by a single breaker.

On 7/8/2020 10:26 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 21:01:22 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 13:45:10 -0500, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:58:37 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:56:29 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 11:14PM, "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run. If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.

Pretty much all new construction is going to use 12 gauge hot with maybe even 10 wire for a neutral.

Huh?
You must not see much actual construction.
In 1 & 2 family, 14-2 is alive and well for general lighting circuits.
#12 is only used for kitchens, laundries and bathrooms.

In my housing development, there isn't an inch of 14ga anywhere. All of the
120v circuit breakers are 20a and all of the Romex is yellow, no exceptions
for lighting circuits.

On the surface that might sound good but you usually end up with fewer
circuits. The breakers are sized by square footage, not the number of
outlets.

Yeah, I don't think it's a good thing. For example, the entire M-I-L suite
is served by a single 20a breaker. That part of the house includes a living
room, a bedroom, a walk-in closet, and a bathroom, all with lights and
receptacles throughout. It's basically an apartment inside the house, and
the whole thing is served by a single breaker.


Ouch! Was that wired by a pro? Lights and receptacles on the same
breaker?

My house is 1583 sq ft and has 16 breakers. Also have a **** load of
receptacles and switches.

On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 23:27:21 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/8/2020 10:26 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 21:01:22 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 13:45:10 -0500, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:58:37 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:56:29 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 11:14PM, "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run. If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.

Pretty much all new construction is going to use 12 gauge hot with maybe even 10 wire for a neutral.

Huh?
You must not see much actual construction.
In 1 & 2 family, 14-2 is alive and well for general lighting circuits.
#12 is only used for kitchens, laundries and bathrooms.

In my housing development, there isn't an inch of 14ga anywhere. All of the
120v circuit breakers are 20a and all of the Romex is yellow, no exceptions
for lighting circuits.

On the surface that might sound good but you usually end up with fewer
circuits. The breakers are sized by square footage, not the number of
outlets.

Yeah, I don't think it's a good thing. For example, the entire M-I-L suite
is served by a single 20a breaker. That part of the house includes a living
room, a bedroom, a walk-in closet, and a bathroom, all with lights and
receptacles throughout. It's basically an apartment inside the house, and
the whole thing is served by a single breaker.


Ouch! Was that wired by a pro? Lights and receptacles on the same
breaker?

Yes, the electricians are pros, but Fretwell is fond of saying any monkey
can get a license. I asked them about the wiring because I've had a lot of
electrical issues in the first year and they said that the builder, DR
Horton, wants them to do it that way. Take the 3-car garage, as another
example. A single 20a breaker covers 3 receptacles on the walls, 2
receptacles on the ceiling for the GDOs, a pair of light fixtures on the
driveway and 4 weatherproof receptacles on the exterior of the house. The
GFCI on that circuit was way too twitchy, tripping every week or two for no
reason, so they changed the breaker and it's been better so far. At my last
house, all of that was on 3 breakers rather than one.

All of the houses out here are the same way. I know because I've walked
through all of them while they were under construction. We talked about
that a while back.

My house is 1583 sq ft and has 16 breakers. Also have a **** load of
receptacles and switches.

My house is about twice that size with 19 breakers.

In article ,
lid says...
Ouch! Was that wired by a pro? Lights and receptacles on the same
breaker?

Yes, the electricians are pros, but Fretwell is fond of saying any monkey
can get a license. I asked them about the wiring because I've had a lot of
electrical issues in the first year and they said that the builder, DR
Horton, wants them to do it that way. Take the 3-car garage, as another
example. A single 20a breaker covers 3 receptacles on the walls, 2
receptacles on the ceiling for the GDOs, a pair of light fixtures on the
driveway and 4 weatherproof receptacles on the exterior of the house. The
GFCI on that circuit was way too twitchy, tripping every week or two for no
reason, so they changed the breaker and it's been better so far. At my last
house, all of that was on 3 breakers rather than one.




I worked with a monkey that had his electrical license.

Around 1972 I moved into a duplex that had 2 bedrooms, kitchen, living
room and bathroom. It had a disconect switch in the kitchen and it had
2 20 amp fuses in it. I don't know how they were wired,but thought that
sure was a small ammount. The apartment was built either just before or
just after WW2. I do not recall which.

In article ,
lid says...
Ouch! Was that wired by a pro? Lights and receptacles on the same
breaker?

Yes, the electricians are pros, but Fretwell is fond of saying any monkey
can get a license. I asked them about the wiring because I've had a lot of
electrical issues in the first year and they said that the builder, DR
Horton, wants them to do it that way. Take the 3-car garage, as another
example. A single 20a breaker covers 3 receptacles on the walls, 2
receptacles on the ceiling for the GDOs, a pair of light fixtures on the
driveway and 4 weatherproof receptacles on the exterior of the house. The
GFCI on that circuit was way too twitchy, tripping every week or two for no
reason, so they changed the breaker and it's been better so far. At my last
house, all of that was on 3 breakers rather than one.




I worked with a monkey that had his electrical license.

Around 1972 I moved into a duplex that had 2 bedrooms, kitchen, living
room and bathroom. It had a disconect switch in the kitchen and it had
2 20 amp fuses in it. I don't know how they were wired,but thought that
sure was a small ammount. The apartment was built either just before or
just after WW2. I do not recall which.

In article ,
lid says...
Ouch! Was that wired by a pro? Lights and receptacles on the same
breaker?

Yes, the electricians are pros, but Fretwell is fond of saying any monkey
can get a license. I asked them about the wiring because I've had a lot of
electrical issues in the first year and they said that the builder, DR
Horton, wants them to do it that way. Take the 3-car garage, as another
example. A single 20a breaker covers 3 receptacles on the walls, 2
receptacles on the ceiling for the GDOs, a pair of light fixtures on the
driveway and 4 weatherproof receptacles on the exterior of the house. The
GFCI on that circuit was way too twitchy, tripping every week or two for no
reason, so they changed the breaker and it's been better so far. At my last
house, all of that was on 3 breakers rather than one.




I worked with a monkey that had his electrical license.

Around 1972 I moved into a duplex that had 2 bedrooms, kitchen, living
room and bathroom. It had a disconect switch in the kitchen and it had
2 20 amp fuses in it. I don't know how they were wired,but thought that
sure was a small ammount. The apartment was built either just before or
just after WW2. I do not recall which.

In article ,
lid says...
Ouch! Was that wired by a pro? Lights and receptacles on the same
breaker?

Yes, the electricians are pros, but Fretwell is fond of saying any monkey
can get a license. I asked them about the wiring because I've had a lot of
electrical issues in the first year and they said that the builder, DR
Horton, wants them to do it that way. Take the 3-car garage, as another
example. A single 20a breaker covers 3 receptacles on the walls, 2
receptacles on the ceiling for the GDOs, a pair of light fixtures on the
driveway and 4 weatherproof receptacles on the exterior of the house. The
GFCI on that circuit was way too twitchy, tripping every week or two for no
reason, so they changed the breaker and it's been better so far. At my last
house, all of that was on 3 breakers rather than one.




I worked with a monkey that had his electrical license.

Around 1972 I moved into a duplex that had 2 bedrooms, kitchen, living
room and bathroom. It had a disconect switch in the kitchen and it had
2 20 amp fuses in it. I don't know how they were wired,but thought that
sure was a small ammount. The apartment was built either just before or
just after WW2. I do not recall which.

On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 10:32:18 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...
Ouch! Was that wired by a pro? Lights and receptacles on the same
breaker?

Yes, the electricians are pros, but Fretwell is fond of saying any monkey
can get a license. I asked them about the wiring because I've had a lot of
electrical issues in the first year and they said that the builder, DR
Horton, wants them to do it that way. Take the 3-car garage, as another
example. A single 20a breaker covers 3 receptacles on the walls, 2
receptacles on the ceiling for the GDOs, a pair of light fixtures on the
driveway and 4 weatherproof receptacles on the exterior of the house. The
GFCI on that circuit was way too twitchy, tripping every week or two for no
reason, so they changed the breaker and it's been better so far. At my last
house, all of that was on 3 breakers rather than one.




I worked with a monkey that had his electrical license.

Around 1972 I moved into a duplex that had 2 bedrooms, kitchen, living
room and bathroom. It had a disconect switch in the kitchen and it had
2 20 amp fuses in it. I don't know how they were wired,but thought that
sure was a small ammount. The apartment was built either just before or
just after WW2. I do not recall which.


I an not sure I ever said a monkey could get an EC license (I only
remember talking about "home inspectors") but if that monkey can pass
2 or 3, 100 question, multiple guess, open book tests and come up with
the bond and insurance money, they can be an EC here. In some mobbed
up union states up north, the IBEW certifies electricians and it
depends on who you know down at the local hall.
As for how many breakers, the code calls for 3va per square foot of
living space so you can see how 20a circuits can quickly cover that
area with a minimum of breakers. (one 20 can cover 800 sq/ft), NFPA
has added to the breaker count with rules starting in the 70s that now
require dedicated 20s for the kitchen (2), the laundry and the
bathrooms. Some AHJs also want dedicated circuits for certain fixed in
place appliances like dish washers, microwaves and disposals.
Obviously some contractors squeeze that nickel as hard as they can,
installing a small disposal so it can legally share with the dish
washer, stuff like that. I suggest if they cut corners on things like
that which are easy to see, imagine what is going on inside the walls.

On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 10:32:18 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...
Ouch! Was that wired by a pro? Lights and receptacles on the same
breaker?

Yes, the electricians are pros, but Fretwell is fond of saying any monkey
can get a license. I asked them about the wiring because I've had a lot of
electrical issues in the first year and they said that the builder, DR
Horton, wants them to do it that way. Take the 3-car garage, as another
example. A single 20a breaker covers 3 receptacles on the walls, 2
receptacles on the ceiling for the GDOs, a pair of light fixtures on the
driveway and 4 weatherproof receptacles on the exterior of the house. The
GFCI on that circuit was way too twitchy, tripping every week or two for no
reason, so they changed the breaker and it's been better so far. At my last
house, all of that was on 3 breakers rather than one.




I worked with a monkey that had his electrical license.

Around 1972 I moved into a duplex that had 2 bedrooms, kitchen, living
room and bathroom. It had a disconect switch in the kitchen and it had
2 20 amp fuses in it. I don't know how they were wired,but thought that
sure was a small ammount. The apartment was built either just before or
just after WW2. I do not recall which.


I an not sure I ever said a monkey could get an EC license (I only
remember talking about "home inspectors") but if that monkey can pass
2 or 3, 100 question, multiple guess, open book tests and come up with
the bond and insurance money, they can be an EC here. In some mobbed
up union states up north, the IBEW certifies electricians and it
depends on who you know down at the local hall.
As for how many breakers, the code calls for 3va per square foot of
living space so you can see how 20a circuits can quickly cover that
area with a minimum of breakers. (one 20 can cover 800 sq/ft), NFPA
has added to the breaker count with rules starting in the 70s that now
require dedicated 20s for the kitchen (2), the laundry and the
bathrooms. Some AHJs also want dedicated circuits for certain fixed in
place appliances like dish washers, microwaves and disposals.
Obviously some contractors squeeze that nickel as hard as they can,
installing a small disposal so it can legally share with the dish
washer, stuff like that. I suggest if they cut corners on things like
that which are easy to see, imagine what is going on inside the walls.

On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 10:32:18 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...
Ouch! Was that wired by a pro? Lights and receptacles on the same
breaker?

Yes, the electricians are pros, but Fretwell is fond of saying any monkey
can get a license. I asked them about the wiring because I've had a lot of
electrical issues in the first year and they said that the builder, DR
Horton, wants them to do it that way. Take the 3-car garage, as another
example. A single 20a breaker covers 3 receptacles on the walls, 2
receptacles on the ceiling for the GDOs, a pair of light fixtures on the
driveway and 4 weatherproof receptacles on the exterior of the house. The
GFCI on that circuit was way too twitchy, tripping every week or two for no
reason, so they changed the breaker and it's been better so far. At my last
house, all of that was on 3 breakers rather than one.




I worked with a monkey that had his electrical license.

Around 1972 I moved into a duplex that had 2 bedrooms, kitchen, living
room and bathroom. It had a disconect switch in the kitchen and it had
2 20 amp fuses in it. I don't know how they were wired,but thought that
sure was a small ammount. The apartment was built either just before or
just after WW2. I do not recall which.


I an not sure I ever said a monkey could get an EC license (I only
remember talking about "home inspectors") but if that monkey can pass
2 or 3, 100 question, multiple guess, open book tests and come up with
the bond and insurance money, they can be an EC here. In some mobbed
up union states up north, the IBEW certifies electricians and it
depends on who you know down at the local hall.
As for how many breakers, the code calls for 3va per square foot of
living space so you can see how 20a circuits can quickly cover that
area with a minimum of breakers. (one 20 can cover 800 sq/ft), NFPA
has added to the breaker count with rules starting in the 70s that now
require dedicated 20s for the kitchen (2), the laundry and the
bathrooms. Some AHJs also want dedicated circuits for certain fixed in
place appliances like dish washers, microwaves and disposals.
Obviously some contractors squeeze that nickel as hard as they can,
installing a small disposal so it can legally share with the dish
washer, stuff like that. I suggest if they cut corners on things like
that which are easy to see, imagine what is going on inside the walls.

On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 10:32:18 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...
Ouch! Was that wired by a pro? Lights and receptacles on the same
breaker?

Yes, the electricians are pros, but Fretwell is fond of saying any monkey
can get a license. I asked them about the wiring because I've had a lot of
electrical issues in the first year and they said that the builder, DR
Horton, wants them to do it that way. Take the 3-car garage, as another
example. A single 20a breaker covers 3 receptacles on the walls, 2
receptacles on the ceiling for the GDOs, a pair of light fixtures on the
driveway and 4 weatherproof receptacles on the exterior of the house. The
GFCI on that circuit was way too twitchy, tripping every week or two for no
reason, so they changed the breaker and it's been better so far. At my last
house, all of that was on 3 breakers rather than one.




I worked with a monkey that had his electrical license.

Around 1972 I moved into a duplex that had 2 bedrooms, kitchen, living
room and bathroom. It had a disconect switch in the kitchen and it had
2 20 amp fuses in it. I don't know how they were wired,but thought that
sure was a small ammount. The apartment was built either just before or
just after WW2. I do not recall which.


I an not sure I ever said a monkey could get an EC license (I only
remember talking about "home inspectors") but if that monkey can pass
2 or 3, 100 question, multiple guess, open book tests and come up with
the bond and insurance money, they can be an EC here. In some mobbed
up union states up north, the IBEW certifies electricians and it
depends on who you know down at the local hall.
As for how many breakers, the code calls for 3va per square foot of
living space so you can see how 20a circuits can quickly cover that
area with a minimum of breakers. (one 20 can cover 800 sq/ft), NFPA
has added to the breaker count with rules starting in the 70s that now
require dedicated 20s for the kitchen (2), the laundry and the
bathrooms. Some AHJs also want dedicated circuits for certain fixed in
place appliances like dish washers, microwaves and disposals.
Obviously some contractors squeeze that nickel as hard as they can,
installing a small disposal so it can legally share with the dish
washer, stuff like that. I suggest if they cut corners on things like
that which are easy to see, imagine what is going on inside the walls.

In article ,
says...

I an not sure I ever said a monkey could get an EC license (I only
remember talking about "home inspectors") but if that monkey can pass
2 or 3, 100 question, multiple guess, open book tests and come up with
the bond and insurance money, they can be an EC here. In some mobbed
up union states up north, the IBEW certifies electricians and it
depends on who you know down at the local hall


This monkey only had to take the North Carolina electrical test 3 times
to pass it. You should hear some of the stories he told on himself of
the things he tried to do and how the 'sorry' inspector turned him down.

I don't know how he made it at work with some of the things he did, but
there were some other electricians in the plant that were just as bad.
Being in the plant we did not need to be licened.

After he retired from the plant, he went to work at a nursing home.
Something was spilled on the floor inside a builden and he used gasoline
to clean it up. That was before someone saw him and fired him for
being that stupid.

In article ,
says...

I an not sure I ever said a monkey could get an EC license (I only
remember talking about "home inspectors") but if that monkey can pass
2 or 3, 100 question, multiple guess, open book tests and come up with
the bond and insurance money, they can be an EC here. In some mobbed
up union states up north, the IBEW certifies electricians and it
depends on who you know down at the local hall


This monkey only had to take the North Carolina electrical test 3 times
to pass it. You should hear some of the stories he told on himself of
the things he tried to do and how the 'sorry' inspector turned him down.

I don't know how he made it at work with some of the things he did, but
there were some other electricians in the plant that were just as bad.
Being in the plant we did not need to be licened.

After he retired from the plant, he went to work at a nursing home.
Something was spilled on the floor inside a builden and he used gasoline
to clean it up. That was before someone saw him and fired him for
being that stupid.

In article ,
says...

I an not sure I ever said a monkey could get an EC license (I only
remember talking about "home inspectors") but if that monkey can pass
2 or 3, 100 question, multiple guess, open book tests and come up with
the bond and insurance money, they can be an EC here. In some mobbed
up union states up north, the IBEW certifies electricians and it
depends on who you know down at the local hall


This monkey only had to take the North Carolina electrical test 3 times
to pass it. You should hear some of the stories he told on himself of
the things he tried to do and how the 'sorry' inspector turned him down.

I don't know how he made it at work with some of the things he did, but
there were some other electricians in the plant that were just as bad.
Being in the plant we did not need to be licened.

After he retired from the plant, he went to work at a nursing home.
Something was spilled on the floor inside a builden and he used gasoline
to clean it up. That was before someone saw him and fired him for
being that stupid.

In article ,
says...

I an not sure I ever said a monkey could get an EC license (I only
remember talking about "home inspectors") but if that monkey can pass
2 or 3, 100 question, multiple guess, open book tests and come up with
the bond and insurance money, they can be an EC here. In some mobbed
up union states up north, the IBEW certifies electricians and it
depends on who you know down at the local hall


This monkey only had to take the North Carolina electrical test 3 times
to pass it. You should hear some of the stories he told on himself of
the things he tried to do and how the 'sorry' inspector turned him down.

I don't know how he made it at work with some of the things he did, but
there were some other electricians in the plant that were just as bad.
Being in the plant we did not need to be licened.

After he retired from the plant, he went to work at a nursing home.
Something was spilled on the floor inside a builden and he used gasoline
to clean it up. That was before someone saw him and fired him for
being that stupid.

On Wednesday, July 8, 2020 11:27PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/8/2020 10:26 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 21:01:22 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 13:45:10 -0500, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:58:37 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:56:29 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, July 6, 2020 at 11:14PM, "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
writes:
Wiring up switch w/pilot light...

When wiring up a switch that requires another wire back from the load to attach to the switch to power the pilot-light (illuminated when ON).
Do I have to use #14 wire ?


Use the appropriate AWG for the breaker and length of run. On a 15A circuit, AWG14 is
the minimum AWG, it could be AWG12 for a long run. If the circuit is protected by a
20A breaker, AGW12 is the smallest size you can use.

Pretty much all new construction is going to use 12 gauge hot with maybe even 10 wire for a neutral.

Huh?
You must not see much actual construction.
In 1 & 2 family, 14-2 is alive and well for general lighting circuits.
#12 is only used for kitchens, laundries and bathrooms.

In my housing development, there isn't an inch of 14ga anywhere. All of the
120v circuit breakers are 20a and all of the Romex is yellow, no exceptions
for lighting circuits.

On the surface that might sound good but you usually end up with fewer
circuits. The breakers are sized by square footage, not the number of
outlets.

Yeah, I don't think it's a good thing. For example, the entire M-I-L suite
is served by a single 20a breaker. That part of the house includes a living
room, a bedroom, a walk-in closet, and a bathroom, all with lights and
receptacles throughout. It's basically an apartment inside the house, and
the whole thing is served by a single breaker.


Ouch! Was that wired by a pro? Lights and receptacles on the same
breaker?

Believe it or not, some residential slash commercial establishments have a high-leg conductor from a 120/240V 3 phase where an exit sign and an outlet (and flood light?) can be attached to 277v lighting (for emergency reasons).