A friend who was contemplating replacing his always on gas fired 50 gallon
hot water heater setup with an on demand system told me there's no
economics in it after he ran a long term test (for months).

He gauged his propane use by his monthly fillup gallonage during the summer
months where the outside temperature was relatively steady and warm (so the
tank fills were all to about 80 percent).

He didn't see ANY difference in propane use between these two scenarios.
Control: 50 gallon hot water heater left always on
Testing: He turns on the hot water heater each morning for an hour

Since it's just him, his wife, and one other adult, they can all take
showers in the morning on that schedule.

Given that a new on demand system could cost as much as five grand,
would you agree with him that on-demand systems have no economic value?

On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 17:08:19 +0100, Roger Johnson
wrote:

A friend who was contemplating replacing his always on gas fired 50 gallon
hot water heater setup with an on demand system told me there's no
economics in it after he ran a long term test (for months).

He gauged his propane use by his monthly fillup gallonage during the summer
months where the outside temperature was relatively steady and warm (so the
tank fills were all to about 80 percent).

He didn't see ANY difference in propane use between these two scenarios.
Control: 50 gallon hot water heater left always on
Testing: He turns on the hot water heater each morning for an hour

Since it's just him, his wife, and one other adult, they can all take
showers in the morning on that schedule.

Given that a new on demand system could cost as much as five grand,
would you agree with him that on-demand systems have no economic value?
Been saying that for years - they will never last long enough to pay
foe themselves

On 9/24/2018 12:08 PM, Roger Johnson wrote:
A friend who was contemplating replacing his always on gas fired 50 gallon
hot water heater setup with an on demand system told me there's no
economics in it after he ran a long term test (for months).

He gauged his propane use by his monthly fillup gallonage during the summer
months where the outside temperature was relatively steady and warm (so the
tank fills were all to about 80 percent).

He didn't see ANY difference in propane use between these two scenarios.
Control: 50 gallon hot water heater left always on
Testing: He turns on the hot water heater each morning for an hour

Since it's just him, his wife, and one other adult, they can all take
showers in the morning on that schedule.

Given that a new on demand system could cost as much as five grand,
would you agree with him that on-demand systems have no economic value?


Correct. Just look at the initial cost and do some rough numbers. How
many showers and dishwasher loads for payback?

The only real difference is the cost of standby on a tank heater. New
tanks are better insulated so that is minimized. Better yet is the
indirect fired tanks, again, well insulated. My burner never goes on
just to heat in standby, only if hot water is used. I know someone that
has the same setup as mine, went away for a week and turned the boiler
off. They came home and on the second shower realized it was never
turned back on.

On 9/24/2018 12:23 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 17:08:19 +0100, Roger Johnson
wrote:

A friend who was contemplating replacing his always on gas fired 50 gallon
hot water heater setup with an on demand system told me there's no
economics in it after he ran a long term test (for months).

He gauged his propane use by his monthly fillup gallonage during the summer
months where the outside temperature was relatively steady and warm (so the
tank fills were all to about 80 percent).

He didn't see ANY difference in propane use between these two scenarios.
Control: 50 gallon hot water heater left always on
Testing: He turns on the hot water heater each morning for an hour

Since it's just him, his wife, and one other adult, they can all take
showers in the morning on that schedule.

Given that a new on demand system could cost as much as five grand,
would you agree with him that on-demand systems have no economic value?
Been saying that for years - they will never last long enough to pay
foe themselves

Â* What's your take on point of use heaters ? Ours is a small one , only
about 1.5 gallons , mounted in the crawl space under the kitchen sink
area . The reason we got it was because hot water took too long to get
from the main heater (40 gal electric) to the dishwasher/sink .
Additionally , the main is set at 130° or so and we wanted minimum 140°
at the dishwasher . Never got over 120° coming from the main to the D/W
and that ain't hot enough to sanitize the dishes .

--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crochety - and armed .
Get outta my woods !

On Monday, September 24, 2018 at 12:08:24 PM UTC-4, Roger Johnson wrote:
A friend who was contemplating replacing his always on gas fired 50 gallon
hot water heater setup with an on demand system told me there's no
economics in it after he ran a long term test (for months).

He gauged his propane use by his monthly fillup gallonage during the summer
months where the outside temperature was relatively steady and warm (so the
tank fills were all to about 80 percent).

He didn't see ANY difference in propane use between these two scenarios.
Control: 50 gallon hot water heater left always on
Testing: He turns on the hot water heater each morning for an hour

Since it's just him, his wife, and one other adult, they can all take
showers in the morning on that schedule.

Given that a new on demand system could cost as much as five grand,
would you agree with him that on-demand systems have no economic value?

There has been many posts here over the years, a lot of analysis and
every time I've seen, it's the same conclusion. In most cases an on
demand water heater makes no sense because you'll never recover the
increased cost. The standby losses from a tank type are not that
significant, the savings would take a very long time to make up the
additional upfront cost.

And the upfront cost in going from a tank to a tankless can be large,
including possibly resizing the gas supply lines all the way to the
meter. They can make sense for special applications, like a beach
rental property, where you want unlimited hot water at peak times,
it won't be on at all during periods it;s unoccupied, etc. If it's
put in during new construction, that can help too, as it's less money
to just run a larger gas service instead of replacing what's there.

On 9/24/2018 2:00 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:

Â* What's your take on point of use heaters ? Ours is a small one , only
about 1.5 gallons , mounted in the crawl space under the kitchen sink
area . The reason we got it was because hot water took too long to get
from the main heater (40 gal electric) to the dishwasher/sink .
Additionally , the main is set at 130° or so and we wanted minimum 140°
at the dishwasher . Never got over 120° coming from the main to the D/W
and that ain't hot enough to sanitize the dishes .


I don't see much difference in cost wither way. The small tanks are
often not as well insulated but if the distance to the regular tank is
long, it will save water as the hot will be there quickly.

As for the dishwasher, I get excellent results with 120 degree water as
there is a sani portion in the cycle that raises the temperature.
Coupled with the caustic detergent, they should be sanitized well. It
also helps to use a good detergent. We use Cascade Platinum and also a
rinse aid.

On 9/24/2018 11:08 AM, Roger Johnson wrote:
A friend who was contemplating replacing his always on gas fired 50 gallon
hot water heater setup with an on demand system told me there's no
economics in it after he ran a long term test (for months).

He gauged his propane use by his monthly fillup gallonage during the summer
months where the outside temperature was relatively steady and warm (so the
tank fills were all to about 80 percent).

He didn't see ANY difference in propane use between these two scenarios.
Control: 50 gallon hot water heater left always on
Testing: He turns on the hot water heater each morning for an hour

Since it's just him, his wife, and one other adult, they can all take
showers in the morning on that schedule.

Given that a new on demand system could cost as much as five grand,
would you agree with him that on-demand systems have no economic value?

The above doesn't incorporate any savings in water usage but unless in
one of those areas with extremely high rates coupled with sewage rates
based on usage and a high water use still very unlikely to actually be
an economic benefit.

It's the reason most eco-friendly things don't win on their own in the
marketplace; while they may have side benefits, on economics alone they
simply don't pay.

--

On 9/24/2018 3:12 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/24/2018 2:00 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:

Â*Â* What's your take on point of use heaters ? Ours is a small one ,
only about 1.5 gallons , mounted in the crawl space under the kitchen
sink area . The reason we got it was because hot water took too long
to get from the main heater (40 gal electric) to the dishwasher/sink
. Additionally , the main is set at 130° or so and we wanted minimum
140° at the dishwasher . Never got over 120° coming from the main to
the D/W and that ain't hot enough to sanitize the dishes .


I don't see much difference in cost wither way.Â* The small tanks are
often not as well insulated but if the distance to the regular tank is
long, it will save water as the hot will be there quickly.

As for the dishwasher, I get excellent results with 120 degree water
as there is a sani portion in the cycle that raises the temperature.
Coupled with the caustic detergent, they should be sanitized well.Â* It
also helps to use a good detergent.Â* We use Cascade Platinum and also
a rinse aid.

She buys the cheap stuff ... but we do use a rinse aid . I do like
having the very hot water at the sink too for those few items that we
hand wash . last rinse is straight hot .

--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crochety - and armed .
Get outta my woods !

On 9/24/2018 5:06 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 9/24/2018 3:12 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/24/2018 2:00 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:

Â*Â* What's your take on point of use heaters ? Ours is a small one ,
only about 1.5 gallons , mounted in the crawl space under the kitchen
sink area . The reason we got it was because hot water took too long
to get from the main heater (40 gal electric) to the dishwasher/sink
. Additionally , the main is set at 130° or so and we wanted minimum
140° at the dishwasher . Never got over 120° coming from the main to
the D/W and that ain't hot enough to sanitize the dishes .


I don't see much difference in cost wither way.Â* The small tanks are
often not as well insulated but if the distance to the regular tank is
long, it will save water as the hot will be there quickly.

As for the dishwasher, I get excellent results with 120 degree water
as there is a sani portion in the cycle that raises the temperature.
Coupled with the caustic detergent, they should be sanitized well.Â* It
also helps to use a good detergent.Â* We use Cascade Platinum and also
a rinse aid.

She buys the cheap stuff ... but we do use a rinse aid . I do like
having the very hot water at the sink too for those few items that we
hand wash . last rinse is straight hot .


Splurge once and get the Platinum. I gave away the jug of regular stuff
I had when I saw the difference.

On 9/24/2018 4:12 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/24/2018 5:06 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 9/24/2018 3:12 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/24/2018 2:00 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:

Â*Â* What's your take on point of use heaters ? Ours is a small one ,
only about 1.5 gallons , mounted in the crawl space under the
kitchen sink area . The reason we got it was because hot water took
too long to get from the main heater (40 gal electric) to the
dishwasher/sink . Additionally , the main is set at 130° or so and
we wanted minimum 140° at the dishwasher . Never got over 120°
coming from the main to the D/W and that ain't hot enough to
sanitize the dishes .


I don't see much difference in cost wither way.Â* The small tanks are
often not as well insulated but if the distance to the regular tank
is long, it will save water as the hot will be there quickly.

As for the dishwasher, I get excellent results with 120 degree water
as there is a sani portion in the cycle that raises the temperature.
Coupled with the caustic detergent, they should be sanitized well.Â*
It also helps to use a good detergent.Â* We use Cascade Platinum and
also a rinse aid.

She buys the cheap stuff ... but we do use a rinse aid . I do like
having the very hot water at the sink too for those few items that we
hand wash . last rinse is straight hot .


Splurge once and get the Platinum.Â* I gave away the jug of regular
stuff I had when I saw the difference.

Â* She does the shopping ... I can hang the request on the fact that
sometimes my coffee cups don't come clean .

--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crochety - and armed .
Get outta my woods !

On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 16:06:08 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 9/24/2018 3:12 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/24/2018 2:00 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:

Â*Â* What's your take on point of use heaters ? Ours is a small one ,
only about 1.5 gallons , mounted in the crawl space under the kitchen
sink area . The reason we got it was because hot water took too long
to get from the main heater (40 gal electric) to the dishwasher/sink
. Additionally , the main is set at 130° or so and we wanted minimum
140° at the dishwasher . Never got over 120° coming from the main to
the D/W and that ain't hot enough to sanitize the dishes .


I don't see much difference in cost wither way.Â* The small tanks are
often not as well insulated but if the distance to the regular tank is
long, it will save water as the hot will be there quickly.

As for the dishwasher, I get excellent results with 120 degree water
as there is a sani portion in the cycle that raises the temperature.
Coupled with the caustic detergent, they should be sanitized well.Â* It
also helps to use a good detergent.Â* We use Cascade Platinum and also
a rinse aid.

She buys the cheap stuff ... but we do use a rinse aid . I do like
having the very hot water at the sink too for those few items that we
hand wash . last rinse is straight hot .

I thought dish washers turned on the drying element to raise the
temperature of the water to a sanitizing level, no matter how cold it
was going in. I know there is a pretty good blast of steam coming out
if you shut it down right at the end of the wash cycle and open the
door. I don't have a dish washer here but there is always one in the
houses we rent on vacation.

On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 13:00:25 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 9/24/2018 12:23 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 17:08:19 +0100, Roger Johnson
wrote:

A friend who was contemplating replacing his always on gas fired 50 gallon
hot water heater setup with an on demand system told me there's no
economics in it after he ran a long term test (for months).

He gauged his propane use by his monthly fillup gallonage during the summer
months where the outside temperature was relatively steady and warm (so the
tank fills were all to about 80 percent).

He didn't see ANY difference in propane use between these two scenarios.
Control: 50 gallon hot water heater left always on
Testing: He turns on the hot water heater each morning for an hour

Since it's just him, his wife, and one other adult, they can all take
showers in the morning on that schedule.

Given that a new on demand system could cost as much as five grand,
would you agree with him that on-demand systems have no economic value?
Been saying that for years - they will never last long enough to pay
foe themselves

* What's your take on point of use heaters ? Ours is a small one , only
about 1.5 gallons , mounted in the crawl space under the kitchen sink
area . The reason we got it was because hot water took too long to get
from the main heater (40 gal electric) to the dishwasher/sink .
Additionally , the main is set at 130° or so and we wanted minimum 140°
at the dishwasher . Never got over 120° coming from the main to the D/W
and that ain't hot enough to sanitize the dishes .


Excellent solution. Point of use on demands work good for some things
too (they hold a quart or so of steeming hot water and draw about 1500
watts - like an "on demand tea kettle"

On 9/24/2018 11:33 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 13:00:25 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 9/24/2018 12:23 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 17:08:19 +0100, Roger Johnson
wrote:

A friend who was contemplating replacing his always on gas fired 50 gallon
hot water heater setup with an on demand system told me there's no
economics in it after he ran a long term test (for months).

He gauged his propane use by his monthly fillup gallonage during the summer
months where the outside temperature was relatively steady and warm (so the
tank fills were all to about 80 percent).

He didn't see ANY difference in propane use between these two scenarios.
Control: 50 gallon hot water heater left always on
Testing: He turns on the hot water heater each morning for an hour

Since it's just him, his wife, and one other adult, they can all take
showers in the morning on that schedule.

Given that a new on demand system could cost as much as five grand,
would you agree with him that on-demand systems have no economic value?
Been saying that for years - they will never last long enough to pay
foe themselves
Â* What's your take on point of use heaters ? Ours is a small one , only
about 1.5 gallons , mounted in the crawl space under the kitchen sink
area . The reason we got it was because hot water took too long to get
from the main heater (40 gal electric) to the dishwasher/sink .
Additionally , the main is set at 130° or so and we wanted minimum 140°
at the dishwasher . Never got over 120° coming from the main to the D/W
and that ain't hot enough to sanitize the dishes .

Excellent solution. Point of use on demands work good for some things
too (they hold a quart or so of steeming hot water and draw about 1500
watts - like an "on demand tea kettle"

Â* Did you miss the part where I said "ours is a small one , only about
1.5 gallons" ?

--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crochety - and armed .
Get outta my woods !

Given that a new on demand system could cost as much as five grand,
would you agree with him that on-demand systems have no economic value?

yes I agree.

Especially if you live in a cold climate, the "waste" heat is not really wasted but helps heat the living space.

m

On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 07:57:06 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 9/24/2018 11:33 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 13:00:25 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 9/24/2018 12:23 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 17:08:19 +0100, Roger Johnson
wrote:

A friend who was contemplating replacing his always on gas fired 50 gallon
hot water heater setup with an on demand system told me there's no
economics in it after he ran a long term test (for months).

He gauged his propane use by his monthly fillup gallonage during the summer
months where the outside temperature was relatively steady and warm (so the
tank fills were all to about 80 percent).

He didn't see ANY difference in propane use between these two scenarios.
Control: 50 gallon hot water heater left always on
Testing: He turns on the hot water heater each morning for an hour

Since it's just him, his wife, and one other adult, they can all take
showers in the morning on that schedule.

Given that a new on demand system could cost as much as five grand,
would you agree with him that on-demand systems have no economic value?
Been saying that for years - they will never last long enough to pay
foe themselves
* What's your take on point of use heaters ? Ours is a small one , only
about 1.5 gallons , mounted in the crawl space under the kitchen sink
area . The reason we got it was because hot water took too long to get
from the main heater (40 gal electric) to the dishwasher/sink .
Additionally , the main is set at 130° or so and we wanted minimum 140°
at the dishwasher . Never got over 120° coming from the main to the D/W
and that ain't hot enough to sanitize the dishes .

Excellent solution. Point of use on demands work good for some things
too (they hold a quart or so of steeming hot water and draw about 1500
watts - like an "on demand tea kettle"

* Did you miss the part where I said "ours is a small one , only about
1.5 gallons" ?
Nope - didn't miss it. That's "medium sized" for a POU. 5 is
typically the largest.

On Monday, September 24, 2018 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 16:06:08 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 9/24/2018 3:12 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/24/2018 2:00 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:

Â*Â* What's your take on point of use heaters ? Ours is a small one ,
only about 1.5 gallons , mounted in the crawl space under the kitchen
sink area . The reason we got it was because hot water took too long
to get from the main heater (40 gal electric) to the dishwasher/sink
. Additionally , the main is set at 130° or so and we wanted minimum
140° at the dishwasher . Never got over 120° coming from the main to
the D/W and that ain't hot enough to sanitize the dishes .


I don't see much difference in cost wither way.Â* The small tanks are
often not as well insulated but if the distance to the regular tank is
long, it will save water as the hot will be there quickly.

As for the dishwasher, I get excellent results with 120 degree water
as there is a sani portion in the cycle that raises the temperature.
Coupled with the caustic detergent, they should be sanitized well.Â* It
also helps to use a good detergent.Â* We use Cascade Platinum and also
a rinse aid.

She buys the cheap stuff ... but we do use a rinse aid . I do like
having the very hot water at the sink too for those few items that we
hand wash . last rinse is straight hot .

I thought dish washers turned on the drying element to raise the
temperature of the water to a sanitizing level, no matter how cold it
was going in. I know there is a pretty good blast of steam coming out
if you shut it down right at the end of the wash cycle and open the
door. I don't have a dish washer here but there is always one in the
houses we rent on vacation.

I believe that is correct. I know on mine, it stops sometimes in at least
one of the cycels, pausing for a few minutes, which I presume is while
the water is being heated. They have the heater element down in the water,
it would be kind of stupid to not use it to heat water that isn't hot
enough. The exception there would be in the govt has some energy efficiency
standards they have to meet and if they let the thing run with cold water
they meet it, but heating it would not.